Farangs are idiots...

[cdnmatt]

Want to know one of the (many) hard parts of being in a relationship with a Thai? Listening to everyone else's bullshit, and prejudices. This goes both ways. Me listening to all the farangs in town I know, then Kim listening to all his friends. I've come to realize you have to learn how to leave that stuff at the door, when it comes to the relationship. Although, I don't think Kim's friends are anywhere near as critical towards farangs, as the farangs I know are towards Thais.

Anyway, on to the story...

In a previous post, I jumped the gun a bit by saying we were already in a house. I knew we were getting it though, hence why I posted it. We actually just moved in five days ago though, and I gotta say, it's great! We're always mot-dtua (broke) though, and moving in cost us a good 60,000 baht, so we're pretty sparse on furniture. We'll keep buying and building up as the weeks go by. We managed to buy a bed and sofa, but that was it.

The day after getting the house, Kim and myself headed off to mama's village, to steal a TV and a puppy. :-) Of course though, Kim's mama was pretty excited and curious about the house ordeal, so had to come and see it. The whole group came back in a friend's pickup truck, we sat around, had some food & beer, etc. Mama really likes the house too, and when Kim and myself go on vacations, she wants to sleep here now. :-)

She realized we simply didn't have any money at the moment though, so decided to do us a favor, and buy me a computer desk. At first I was told mama was going to drop if off the next day, but it didn't come, so no worries. I'd prefer not to take anything from her anyway, but it's rude to say no. The story kept changing for a few days though, most probably because Kim doesn't know what he's talking about. But after continuously listening to everyone tell me just how horrible Thais are, I started getting a bit frustrated.

The last version of the story I heard from Kim was a couple nights ago, which was mama found us both, a fridge and a computer desk for 10,000 baht, but we were paying, and had to pickup everything in the village. Again, after listening to everyone, I didn't like this, because I just assumed we were going to end up with a 5000 baht fridge, 2000 baht computer desk, and Kim's mama would have 3000 baht for herself. I would prefer just to buy everything ourselves in town. Thankfully, I kept my mouth shut, and didn't vent any frustration towards Kim, or question him about it.

Sure enough, this morning, I hear our puppy barking like mad. I wander downstairs half asleep, only to see Kim's mama peeking through the window. Mama, papa, and a friend who owns a pickup truck were in the driveway with a new computer desk. They even brought their own food, sticky rice, and ice cold water. :-)

The thing that agitates me is, when I tell farangs this, I always get some stupid remark like, "oh, but she only did that because now you owe her a favor", or some shit. I mean, come on... talk about going to lengths to validate your own prejudices that all Thais are lieing, deceitful, lazy bastards. Why is it so difficult for some farangs to believe this is simply a loving mother, who is grateful her son is with a loving farang who is providing him with a good life, and wants to do the motherly thing and take care / help out?

Most farangs simply can't comprehend this though. They're just not willing to believe it. If you think I'm wrong, just watch the replies to this thread. So now, I'm not going to bother listening to anything farangs tell me anymore. I've listened for the past year, keeping an open mind, and trying to learn. Pretty much everything they've said has turned out false though, so I'm not going to bother listening anymore. Because if I do, I start believing them, which causes way too much tension and second-guessing.

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[netrix]

dude, you are so gay. everything is so dramatic haha. congrats on the new place and stuff.

[CoffeeBreak]

Nice and interesting story,keep us updated how matters progress, and if some farangs have certain views of the motives of some Thais they are entitled to their opinions, but you do your own thing and enjoy your life.

[Dodger]

cdmatt,

Unfortunately, and I say this with a bit of apprehension, most adult Thais who live in poverty conditions do view us (farang) as a means of getting money. That's just the way it works. Having said that, there is the possibility that controls can be placed on these interactions, but only if the farang is aware of the situation and draws some very solid lines in the relationship from the beginning. And when I say "relationship," I'm referring to the relationship you immediately embark on with the boys family when you couple with a Thai boy.

Unless an orphan, the boy is tied to, and comnitted to, his family above all, and there is nothing you could (or should) do to try to change this. And please don't develop the notion that there is a dividing line between good and bad parents based on the premise that the good ones only want to give with no motivations to receive - because they all have motivations to receive - and receive from you. You are the sponsor in the relationship regardless if you like that role or not - this is your role within the dynamics of the family you have just joined. In short, if you couple with the boy - you have just joined his family.

My advice, not that you want it, is to make your financial donations to the family conservative and within your budget, and don't, at any time, waiver. Regardless of every water buffalo in their village dies at the same time, do not donate a single satang unless it was promised before hand within the structure of your financial agreemnet.

If you don't acknowledge what I'm saying to you, or try to dodge this responsibility - your relationship with your BF will come to an end.

Enjoy his family as much as you enjoy him...become friends with them all...spend time with them...gain their trust...see inside them if you can...give what you can to help to make their lives a bit easier...but don't gibe away the farm. They'll respect you for this and welcome you into the family with open arms, but just remember, you are the sponsor.

[Alaan]

Well cdmatt, its like everybody you meet in life anywhere in the world, some are genuine, some full of bullshit, some a waste of time, and SOME are idiots.

Many talk negatively about Thais because that has been their experience with Thais. It often pays to listen to others, it is up to you to take out of what you hear as genuine or bullshit, but often you can learn things from farangs who can give the benefit of their 'hindsight' without you possibly having to go though the same pain or pay the high price. But of course every relationship is different and there is no precise blueprint.

And whether you want to beleive it or not there are a VAST amount of farangs out there who have been seriously 'done over' by Thais. There are of course many farangs with a happy and non-threatening Thai environment, but i fear the ratio of being 'taken to the cleaners' to successful relationships would be scary.

I personally dont know many farangs since first visiting Thailand 11 years ago, so i have made virtually all assessments of the Thais I have come into contact with on my own. Over the last couple of years I have become friendly with a couple of farangs who live in Thailand full time, and i see ocassionally when i visit, one dived straight into a full time relationship and has a negative experience in terms of money and disappointent, but he isn't bitter and doesn't talk particularly negative about the failed relationship, only gives the facts, which in themselves paints the genuine negative picture of the Thai he was with.

The other farang i know settled down with a boy for a number of years and has integrated with 'family' life in Issan, and he couldn't be happier with his lot, but he is under no illusions about genuine and particularly bullshit senarios. He knows what is expected of the 'rich' farang and he is realistic enough and has experience to know that if he were a Thai with exactly the same money potential etc, the expectations from the family and 'extended members' would be EXACTLY the same. Thais have absolutely no predudice about the source of the money, it is probably THE biggest source of disagreement within Thai families farang or not.

Virtually all the arguements and problems with Thai families even with NO farang in tow are about money. If you think Uk and western countries have a 'keep up with the joneses' attitude, from what i can see when visiting my guys (fairly poor) village it is more-so in Thailand. He admits to me that everyone in his village spend most of their time gossiping about others, not so much in a nasty or judgemental way, but in a 'matter of fact way'.

Just purely from seeing and taking in things around me when in Thailand regarding say gifts of an expensive (to Thais) nature, it would in my opinion be very unusual for any mother of a family member from a relatively poor background to give a farang a gift. I/we have received gifts from a few Thais in my guys Issan village, but they are all something which has been made especially for me/us or something which is made in the village anyway is of little or no value but offered anyway such as , a bolster for leaning on, a cover for the bed, a scarf or shawl, and a mat for sitting while eating, all these 'gifts' have come with some amount of thought behind them and not for any expected return.

The normal thing would be for the son or the daughters husband but most definitely a farang to be doing the giving, definitely not the other way around, nothing to do with loving your son etc..that i'm afraid would come under the 'romantic notion' file, it is in my own nature to give 'benfit of the doubt' first with all people i meet be they at home, farang or Thai. But I have found many Thais very calculating and (sneaky) but in an obvious (to me) way. My guy is still so niave to me. He receieves a call out of the blue from a 'friend' or some distant family members, and he has this innocent 'how nice of them to call' attitude. I am cynical and I say, he/she will call again soon but the next call will be a 'sob story' or some critical need for a 'loan' ..he gets annoyed with me when i make that suggestion, and sure enough the call comes just as i predicted, my guy always seems so shocked that they would call only for that..it astounds me.

And they are so good at 'laying the bait' such as described by cdmatt and also too hastily written off by him, where a gift or a service is done for you which you probably dont need or require, yes it becomes a favour to be returned, sometimes its just as ordinary as 'keeping in your good books' for future compliance with whiskey, beer and food requirements.

I dont know, but i probably dont help myself whilst giving benefit of doubt i still am cynical and my suspicions easily aroused, and there have been situations in which I have been wrong or too quick to jump to a conclusion, but as i say this cynicism comes from how i see Thai integrating within their own circles and eachother with no farangs in the mix, and they are just as sneaky, calculated, money aware as well as, kind, giving, considerate and generous with their own, not only farangs.

As the previous poster said, like it or not, you become the source for family money when needed just because of who you are as a farang. In my opinion having a Thai relationship is a bit like the family and possibly your potential partners attitude in the uk during the Victorian era, couplings were based on a mix of attraction, love and 'prospects' and both parties knew and accepted the basis for the relationship.

CdMatt, most comments from farangs, idiots or well meaning have very little in my opinion to do with 'validating prejudices' many times farangs are correct, but of course there are many times when the farang is just an idiot. I'm afraid it is probably far too soon in your own relationsip to know who will be right in terms of bullshitting or not, some calculating people can be prepared to wait a long time to get what they eventually want.

Just my two satangs worth of comment.

[X] From Man Ray for cdnmatt in Isaan:

"It has never been my object to record my dreams, just the determination to realize them."
"The streets are full of admirable craftsmen, but so few practical dreamers."

American artist, painter, object maker, sculptor, filmmaker, and photographer. An iron is transformed into a new and potentially threatening object, by the addition of a row of nails. The nails and the evocation of desire, violence, and hot metal, suggest a paradox with the work's title, 'Cadeau' the French word for 'Gift'. The idea is not only to make it useless, but also to counter its original purpose by an ambivalence of the senses. With his pioneering, experimental achievements and technical innovations, Man Ray became one of the only American artists who was central to both the Dada and Surrealist movements. Great artists of the day such as James Joyce, Gertrude Stein, Jean Cocteau and numerous others posed for his camera. http://www.doctorhugo.org/synaesthesia/art/index.html


Man Ray (1890-1976), Gift 1921

The major characteristic of the experience of the gift is, without doubt, its ambiguity. On the one hand, it is experienced (or intended) as a refusal of self-interest and egoistic calculation, and an exaltation of generosity тАУ a gratuitous, unrequited gift. On the other hand, it never entirely excludes awareness of the logic of exchange or even confession of the repressed impulses or, intermittently, the denunciation of another, denied, truth of generous exchange -- its constraining and costly character ("a gift is a misfortune," the Kabyles say). This leads to the question of the dual truth of the gift and the social conditions that make possible what can be described (somewhat inadequately) as an individual and collective self-deception, the very one which Marcel Mauss refers to in one of the most profound sentences that an anthropologist has ever written: "La soci├йt├й se paie toujours elle-m├кme de la fausse monnaie de son r├кve = Society always pays itself in the counterfeit coin of its dream." (Pierre Bourdieu)

[X] A face-saving hidden credit to get you working again, because these gifts must be reciprocated.

[X] Lovers are doomed to behave like idiots; please follow Dodger's and Alaan's advice.

[Beachlover]

cdnmatt: You remain your own worst enemy. Easy solution to some of your frustration here! Just stop writing chapter after chapter of your Romance novel or at least stop publishing them.

Why?... I love reading these chapters lol.

I think the whole point is he's smart enough not to take every comment, story or farang conversation at face value.

[Beachlover]

Unfortunately, and I say this with a bit of apprehension, most adult Thais who live in poverty conditions do view us (farang) as a means of getting money.

Sounds like good advice from someone... who would have more experience than anyone else dating bar boys.

One difference would be that Matt is probably a lot younger than most farangs on this board, only 8 or 9 years older than his Thai BF, rather than the typical 20, 30 or even 40 year age difference. The question is how much weight does this factor carry?...

It's true... whilst Mama might be 'helping out' a little in the short term, in the long run, Matt's earning capacity would be many times more than anyone Kim's family... if she's aware of this, then it's a wise move to help out a little while things are temporarily tight.

That said, it's probably a mix of, looking after her son's partner, genuinely wanting to build a relationship with you, and also partly the money thing, which you can't ignore.

[Beachlover]

Many talk negatively about Thais because that has been their experience with Thais. It often pays to listen to others, it is up to you to take out of what you hear as genuine or bullshit, but often you can learn things from farangs who can give the benefit of their 'hindsight' without you possibly having to go though the same pain or pay the high price. But of course every relationship is different and there is no precise blueprint.

And whether you want to beleive it or not there are a VAST amount of farangs out there who have been seriously 'done over' by Thais. There are of course many farangs with a happy and non-threatening Thai environment, but i fear the ratio of being 'taken to the cleaners' to successful relationships would be scary.

I think the thing is to take into account the factors, which determined the outcome of each story. I would say a large part of it is the type of person they were (e.g. obviously if they're an idiot...), type of boy they went after, how they handled the relationship etc. All things, which you can control (except maybe your age and looks).

As with anything in life... The guys who have a lot of bad stories tend to have common factors at play across each one of them... e.g. themselves.

The question is how much weighting these factors (which are in your control) have over other factors outside your control like Thai culture, Thai ways, etc.

some calculating people can be prepared to wait a long time to get what they eventually want.

That's true... definitely not something to be underestimated.

[Beachlover]

Want to know one of the (many) hard parts of being in a relationship with a Thai? Listening to everyone else's bullshit, and prejudices.

Listen and make your own judgement on how valid people's stories are in relation to your own situation... take things as they come... and have fun!

I'm glad your relationship has made it this far and you're generally happy.