The Brink of War?

[cdnmatt]

Did you see that on YouTube?

Someone sure is in a mood tonight.

Go get your weasle greased by a cute set of Thai lips and tongue, that should solve it.

[Dodger]

Just for clarity I'm sure you realised that that was me directly quoting Putins comments during an interview, not my own thoughts.

Sorry, I totally misread that.

Putin says a lot of things, but one thing I believe is the truth is his deep concern about NATO's presense and expansion across Europe. Hell, that screws up all his Empire building plans, not to mention his legacy which has to be center in his mind.

If this were a game of chess I think it's fair to say that he's been placed in a stale-mate position. Maybe in a few days when all those fucking tanks and missiles get dragged out of there the people of Ukraine can finally get a good nights sleep, and their kids can go to school without the trama of having to hide in a bomb shelter. That's all I really all I care about.

[cdnmatt]

Putin is just one of many thousands of old white men grasping onto the straws, trying their best to hold onto power.

Over the coming 5 - 10 years all these old white fucks will be out of power and / or dead, and the rest of the modern world can continue progressing along without their bullshit.

[StevieWonders]

Someone sure is in a mood tonight.

Go get your weasle greased by a cute set of Thai lips and tongue, that should solve it.I can do that any time I like, Matt because not only am I in Thailand I can see how cute the owner of said lips is. Neither of those apply to you

[StevieWonders]

I think we’re oversimplifying by ignoring the religious aspect of the conflict. The Orthodox have a different way of looking at these things. The Moscow Patriarchate regards itself as superior to Kiev although Orthodoxy came to Russia along that route

[Khor tose]

What we have is a Schrodinger’s invasion

Yes, I read the Washington Post too, and agree the cat is an apt description of what is happening in the Ukraine. Whether the cat lives or not is actually less important to me then finding out if this this was Putin's end plan or we pushed him into this position. You play chess you tell me.

[StevieWonders]

… less important to me then finding out if this this was Putin's end plan or we pushed him into this position. You play chess you tell me.I admire your courage in assuming that you or I can find out such a thing. I’d use the phrase “a nod is as good as a wink to a blind man”, especially as Matt and his love of YouTube has been a major contributor to this thread - and the unparalleled insights of posters like Amazing Dodgems too

[cdnmatt]

I can do that any time I like, Matt because not only am I in Thailand I can see how cute the owner of said lips is. Neither of those apply to you

Now that's just straight up being an asshole.

Go take your meds. If you don't have any, then go take some ecstasy, or something.

[StevieWonders]

Now that's just straight up being an asshole.

Go take your meds. If you don't have any, then go take some ecstasy, or something.Being an asshole is playing to my strengths. At least I believe your claim to be blind whereas most posters here regard you as a fantasist on the topic

[StevieWonders]

Yes, I read the Washington Post too, and agree the cat is an apt description of what is happening in the Ukraine. Whether the cat lives or not is actually less important to me then finding out if this this was Putin's end plan or we pushed him into this position. You play chess you tell me.
One thing you won’t see in the Washington Post, a newspaper incidentally I never read, is the attribution for all the photos they publish of Russian tanks driving through snowy landscapes. There is, I understand a unit of Russian government propaganda happy to feed such photos to a gullible Western media. Bluff, counter-bluff, propaganda, disinformation and misinformation - knock your socks off attempting to figure it out

[latintopxxx]

cdnmatt....no need to be racist...its not only white old men ...its all men...dont think the waxworks that pass for chinese leadership are "white"...or maduro in venezuela...or myanmar....or r u one of those nutty tree hugging sandal wearing vegan fat free dairy free frothing at the mouth woke always offended lefties that subscribe to the notion that all natives were living in total peace and harmony with one another and nature until the evil white colonisers arrived and discovered them...shaka zulu anyone...

[cdnmatt]

True enough. Genghis Khan wasn't exactly a saint, now was he? And President Xi Jingping of China can go fuck himself. Trudeau can just piss off and go do a yoga pose while cuddling some baby panda bears.

Still stick with what I said though. A lot of the old power is going away in the coming years... thake this whole Ukraine bullshit. This is Putin not wanting to die without reclaiming Mother Russia during his life. He failed, it's not going to happen, the world will continue to move on.

[StevieWonders]

True enough. Genghis Khan wasn't exactly a saint, now was he? And President Xi Jingping of China can go fuck himself. Trudeau can just piss off and go do a yoga pose while cuddling some baby panda bears.

Still stick with what I said though. A lot of the old power is going away in the coming years... thake this whole Ukraine bullshit. This is Putin not wanting to die without reclaiming Mother Russia during his life. He failed, it's not going to happen, the world will continue to move on.The similarities with Hitler and the Sudetenland, Peter the Great, Stalin and the Tartars, Genghis Khan are all striking. I’m not saying that Putin is Hitler, but it’s easy to get carried away with these comparisons. The Slavs are at their most dangerous when national borders are in flux. As Sir Les Patterson was wont to ask, “Are you with me?”

[cdnmatt]

I'll stick with what I said. I think we're entering a new phase of humanity, and what we're seeing is the old way on its way out. Same type of thing as we don't do Kings, feudal lords and fiefdoms anymore, now do we? I would imagine you can expect some good sized changes in the future as the old power fucks off to the grave.

On a side note, this modern day shit of everyone comparing everything to the holocaust needs to stop. There's even been truckers in Canada's recent protests saying, "Canada is like Nazi Germany, and we're the Jews". For fuck sakes, stop it. I've walked through the Auschwitz camps in Krakow before (yes, when I could see), I've seen the barracks, crematoriums, horse stables, railroad tracks, salt mines, et al. Comparing your government asking you to get a vaccine to that is just beyond disrespectful to those who actually suffered during the holocaust.

[latintopxxx]

...im still waiting for your grovelling apology...

[cdnmatt]

Now the Ruskies are shelling kindergartens in Ukraine. Figures...

[Moses]

Now the Ruskies are shelling kindergartens in Ukraine. Figures...

1. It is nationalism to use "Russkies" and this is official warning. Do it one more time and I will kick you out for week.

2. Why you don't tell story about speech of member of EP Tatjana Zhdanok from Latvia on Euro parliament plenary session 2 days ago where she demonstrated photos of kids from East Ukraine killed by Ukrainian drone? Oh, let me guess: there were no such news in Western mass media, right? By the way: Zhdanok was abrupted, her microphone switched off, and she was convoyed from podium. Democracy.

[cdnmatt]

Ok, sorry.... no more of that word. If it helps any, you can call me a Canuck if you'd like. I don't mind.

[Moses]

By the way: war is necessary for Ukrainian government. They are under pressure from EU leaders to fulfill Minsk protocol. Their rating of approval is below 20% . If they will implement Minsk protocol, it will be their end for sure. Right and ultra-right opposition has now 26%.

So now they are trying to provoke rebels from East as more as they can: from 2 per day shoots at past, intensity of fire grew now to about 600-800 per day.

It isn't so extensive, as it was in 2014. Length of front line is 320 km, so it is 2 shots per 24 hours per 1 km of the front line now.

[StevieWonders]

It’s simplistic to think in terms of East vs West in today’s global, multipolar world. Sevastapol is great strategic importance to Putin, especially given the ongoing situation in Syria

[cdnmatt]

So now it's Ukraine's fault they're being invaded? Got it.

I'll stick with what I said. This is nothing more than the desires of an old billionaire who knows he'll die in the near future, and he wants to live out his dream of reclaiming Mother Russia to its glory days.

But hey, at least Putin is an actual billionaire, unlike Trump who's broke and just lies about it.

[StevieWonders]

This is nothing more than the desires of an old billionaire who knows he'll die in the near future, and he wants to live out his dream of reclaiming Mother Russia to its glory days.How much of his billions is in Bitcoin?

[StevieWonders]

Ok, sorry.... no more of that word. If it helps any, you can call me a Canuck if you'd like. I don't mind.
https://youtu.be/89LfQUlcNFk

[Moses]

Guys, remember: Putin can wait as long as he wants, he has at least +1 6 y. "season" for drama in the future, but Ukrainian govt and president Zelensky can't - elections are in next year.

[cdnmatt]

https://youtu.be/89LfQUlcNFk


Come on, do it right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xxr46oLBFQ

I've been screeched in before. The pub didn't have any actual fish those, so it was just some breaded filets we kissed, then some tequila shots, followed by my husband (bf at the time) running past me to the bathroom to throw up. Good times.

Please note, that's not actually representative of Canada. That's just a place out in the Atlantic we call "the rock". Canada is really fucken big, we have lots of different people and cultures.

[StevieWonders]

Guys, remember: Putin can wait as long as he wants, he has at least +1 6 y. "season" for drama in the future, but Ukrainian govt and president Zelensky can't - elections are in next year.What we are seeing here is the return of geography.

[cdnmatt]

Guys, remember: Putin can wait as long as he wants, he has at least +1 6 y. "season" for drama in the future, but Ukrainian govt and president Zelensky can't - elections are in next year.


Right, obviously Putin isn't worried about some pesky thing like elections. He wins 97% of the vote each election cycle anyway, so he's good to go.

That's kind of why the Western world doesn't like him very much.

[Moses]

He wins 97% of the vote each election cycle anyway, so he's good to go.


2000 12 candidates, 53% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Russian_presidential_election
2004 6 candidates, 71% (after bank crisis in RF) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Russian_presidential_election
2008 4 candidates, won Medvedev https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Russian_presidential_election
2012 5 candidates, 64% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Russian_presidential_election
2018 8 candidates, 76% (after Crimea) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Russian_presidential_election (in Crimea Putin got 90,2%)

Each elections has been observed by delegation from OSCE. You can read reports about how it was here at time of elections - https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia they do it at time of each elections: parliamental and presidential year by year

[Moses]

The leader of not recognized Donetsk republic Pushilin just spoke by local TV and declared evacuation of women, children and elders to Russia. He explained it by growing concentration of Ukrainian military parts along the front line and by intelligence reports what president Zelensky will give command for military operation at next 48 hours.

Population of Donetsk republic is 2.2 mln

P.S. Kremlin's spokesman Peskov just told, what he has no idea what Pushilin does and why he declared evacuation.

[Moses]

Following to Pushilin, leader of not recognized Lugansk republic Pasechnik, just also announced evacuation to Russia. Reason is the same - growing concentration of Ukrainian heavy technic and military parts along the front line.

P.S. Putin just spoke and called Zelensky for peace talk with leaders of separatists.

[Andy]

1. It is nationalism to use "Russkies" and this is official warning. Do it one more time and I will kick you out for week.


I didn't know this is offensive word. We have here in Moscow City a luxury restaurant named "Ruski" (https://www.ruski354.ru/) but looks like no one here is actually insult by it.

[StevieWonders]

Following to Pushilin, leader of not recognized Lugansk republic Pasechnik, just also announced evacuation to Russia. Reason is the same - growing concentration of Ukrainian heavy technic and military parts along the front line.

P.S. Putin just spoke and called Zelensky for peace talk with leaders of separatists.When can we expect news footage of the body bags of soldiers being returned to Russia? That’s when we’ll know it’s a real war

[Moses]

When can we expect news footage of the body bags of soldiers being returned to Russia? That’s when we’ll know it’s a real war

Nobody cares: they are soldiers of Fortune, and knew what to expect. No Russian regular army are fighting on the side or separatists till now.

I still think what Russian army will not cross border until it will be totally necessary: for to support separatists by fire they can fire roсkets directly from places of permanent locations in Russia: distance is short, so short that Russia may fire tactical rockets to Ukrainian capital from own territory - it is less than 500 km.

[StevieWonders]

Nobody cares: they are soldiers of Fortune, and knew what to expect. No Russian regular army are fighting on the side or separatists.I didn’t say I cared. I just want to see bodies so I know it’s a real war

[StevieWonders]

When’s Nordstream 2 due to come online? Surely that’s Putin’s trump card, just turn it off and disrupt Europe’s energy markets

[Moses]

When’s Nordstream 2 due to come online? Surely that’s Putin’s trump card, just turn it off and disrupt Europe’s energy markets

Depends of contracts and Germany... normally by announced plans - in July, but right now gas warehouses are 94% empty, so maybe even early.

US just announced few hours ago, what sanctions will not touch energy market.

[StevieWonders]

Depends of contracts and Germany... normally by announced plans - in July, but right now gas warehouses are 94% empty, so maybe even early.

US just announced few hours ago, what sanctions will not touch energy market.How could US sanctions turn Nordstream 2 off? Surely the controls for that are at the Russian end

[Moses]

How could US sanctions turn Nordstream 2 off? Surely the controls for that are at the Russian end

Payments for gas are going via US banks (when payments are US dollars).

[StevieWonders]

Payments for gas are going via US banks (when payments are US dollars).
But if Putin has turned off the tap what is there to pay for? Western Europe won’t be getting anything so will pay nothing for it . Putin must turn off Nordstream 2 in order to disrupt Europe’s energy markets. That way we’ll all know he’s serious

As I recall the pipeline runs through Ukraine. Even if Putin doesn’t turn it off, some strategically placed sabotage by the naughty Ukraine army will have the same effect

[StevieWonders]

I'll stick with what I said. I think we're entering a new phase of humanity, and what we're seeing is the old way on its way out. Same type of thing as we don't do Kings, feudal lords and fiefdoms anymore, now do we?Perhaps Matt you could expand on this theme. Maybe you could explore the life and work of Peter Thiel in this context as he is, arguably, the second most important same-sex attracted Silicon Valley executive apart from Apple’s Tim Cook who is, like so many of our members, a Rice Queen. Doesn’t he also have an interest in Bitcoin?

[latintopxxx]

stevie....nordstream is not operational at the moment and it does NOT run through Ukraine.....and asking to see body bags is really not on.....if i was king of the world i would makje sure that any country at war would have to have the chuildren of itsb leaders and elite in the frontline too....very easy to send the hoi poloi to its slaughter...

[StevieWonders]

stevie....nordstream is not operational at the moment and it does NOT run through Ukraine......Are you perhaps confusing Nordstream with Nordstream 2?
and asking to see body bags is really not on.....Considering the absolute bullshit you have showered members in the Forum over the years (that you subsequently admitted was a complete fabrication) about how to treat money boys, I regard your sensitivity on this matter somewhere on the "Sentimental Fool to Outright Hypocrite" range

[latintopxxx]

...two wrongs dont make a right!!

[latintopxxx]

...bioth nordstreams run together most of the way...and as the name suggests "north stream"..not sure what the one via Ukraine is called...and yes i do think life is valuable and not to be squandered...btw...has anyone asked the Russians why they even want Ukraine...why would they want a basket case country with a hunungus national debt...

[StevieWonders]

...bioth nordstreams run together most of the way...and as the name suggests "north stream"..not sure what the one via Ukraine is called...and yes i do think life is valuable and not to be squandered...btw...has anyone asked the Russians why they even want Ukraine...why would they want a basket case country with a hunungus national debt...As a lifelong sceptic there isn’t much to beat observable facts - no body bags, no war - is one such. Unfortunately modern propaganda techniques vitiate that principle , but footage of grieving Russian families would be additional confirmation, don’t you agree?If you’re one of those confuses scepticism with cynicism you maybe fail to perceive the cynical motivation I have in hoping for such a thing

[Moses]

But if Putin has turned off the tap what is there to pay for? Western Europe won’t be getting anything so will pay nothing for it . Putin must turn off Nordstream 2 in order to disrupt Europe’s energy markets. That way we’ll all know he’s serious

As I recall the pipeline runs through Ukraine. Even if Putin doesn’t turn it off, some strategically placed sabotage by the naughty Ukraine army will have the same effect

North Stream and North Stream-2 are gas pipelines what are laying in Baltic sea (directly from Russia to Germany, no other countries are involved), each has 2 parallel pipes. No one is going via Ukraine. NS is working is full speed. NS-2 is waiting for certification.

Also Russia has 3 more gas pipelines to EU - Yamal (is going to EU via Poland), Ukraina (is going to EU via Ukraine), Turkish stream (2 pipelines, going to EU via Black sea and Turkey).

Since 1991 - fail of USSR - Russia never stopped any gas deliveries by political reason. That are commercial services and has no relations with politic.

[StevieWonders]

Since 1991 - fail of USSR - Russia never stopped any gas deliveries. That are commercial services and has no relations with politic.How comforting but, as my mother often said "there's always a first time". Mind you, she also told me never to talk to strange men, advice I've spent my entire life ignoring

[Moses]

Meanwhile Spiegel just published document (found in UK archive) what confirms words of Putin about NATO: during negotiations of joining 2 Germanies - Soviet Union removed Soviet Army and nuclear warheads from East Germany and let to Germanies to join in exchange of obligations not to extend NATO to the East https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/nato-osterweiterung-aktenfund-stuetzt-russische-version-a-1613d467-bd72-4f02-8e16-2cd6d3285295

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[StevieWonders]

Meanwhile Spiegel just published document (found in UK archive) what confirms words of Putin about NATO: during negotiations of joining 2 Germanies it was promised not to move NATO to the East https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/nato-osterweiterung-aktenfund-stuetzt-russische-version-a-1613d467-bd72-4f02-8e16-2cd6d3285295I'm sure your extensive knowledge of Russian history includes the Treaty of Tilsit. How useful was that in assuring the future of Russia at the time? I'm rather fond of that saying of Napoleon's too - "Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake"

[Dodger]

Meanwhile Spiegel just published document what confirms words of Putin about NATO: during negotiations of joining 2 Germanies it was promised not to move NATO to the East https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/nato-osterweiterung-aktenfund-stuetzt-russische-version-a-1613d467-bd72-4f02-8e16-2cd6d3285295

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Oh...well that's a horse of a different color. Why didn't Putin just show this piece of paper to everyone at the beginning of this. I'm sure that Ukraine and the rest of Europe would have agreed with the content in this document if they knew it existed and none of this mess would have been necessary.

I hope Biden and the U.S. State Department are reading what you posted as well. Hell, they just may take sides with Russia after reading this.

Now I completely understand Putin's concerns. If there's a multi-national alliance which unites countries together in the event he ever decided to invade them - his job just gets 10 times harder. Oh, so that's what this is all about.

[Moses]

Now the Ruskies are shelling kindergartens in Ukraine. Figures...

Ok, Matt, I found time to check that "news" about kindergarten. And here is video in Washington post https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/17/ukraine-russia-kindergarten-shelling/

And I have questions about that setup (yes, it is totally false scene):

Announced what it was explosion from artillery's shell. This shell made hole in 4-bricks-thick wall almost 1 meter in diameter. So it must be very strong explosion, right?

Why then all glasses in room including thin glass door are in own places?
Can you imagine what explosion that broke half meter thick wall will not broke glass door?
Window frame just in 1 meter from hole is not damaged also, there are no glass on the floor.
Glass door to next room just in opposite wall of the room with hole is untouched also.

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Commentaries in Washington Post under that article:


The claim is that a 120mm mortar shell caused the damage from an impact site 30-50 meters from the wall. but even if it were closer the hole is about 5 feet up a wall and has blown a hole directly thru a four or five layer thick brick wall. The damage does not look like a falling shell but more like a projectile weapon impacted the wall, punching thru the wall like a bullet. Like a bazooka or another flat trajectory weapon would cause. Even like a shaped charge stuck to the wall. A nearby falling shell like a mortar would cause a more oval shaped pattern of damage both inside and outside due to gravity and the pattern of the blast. However this hole and damage is circular.... and even the soccer balls look staged. I mean did the blast cause them to shoot across the room rebound and land on the rubble. But even if the blast were close to the building why are so few windows blown out, they have puncture damage, that seems appropriate for shrapnel. But to blow thru a 5 deep brick wall



Regarding the picture showing the hole in the wall:
1. Why is there no evidence of any charred or burnt items in the room? There is no damage to walls in room except for the hole. An explosive charge would have done much more damage.
2. Why does it appear like the bricks just fell out of the wall in whole pieces below the hole?
3. Notice there is no debris on top of the items on the floor as if the items were placed there after.

The evidence in the picture doesn't support the story. It appears poorly staged.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

I'm sure your extensive knowledge of Russian history includes the Treaty of Tilsit. How useful was that in assuring the future of Russia at the time? I'm rather fond of that saying of Napoleon's too - "Never interrupt your enemy while he is making a mistake"

I would not agree that your example is a great comparison, as the Treaty of Tilsit was a formal treaty made between Napoleon and Tsar Alexander the First (I think it was). However there was never any Treaty signed where NATO agreed to not admit former Eastern Bloc countries. This story Moses has publicised is just mid to higher level foreign affairs officials talking about the fact that they believe they had promised the USSR that NATO wouldn’t expand. It is not a formal Treaty.

Anyway, it’s not exactly a scoop. Foreign policy documents released by USA over a decade ago have demonstrated that although no Treaty was ever signed saying the NATO would never expand East, the Russians definitely given plenty of verbal assurances along those lines between 1989 and 1991. Here’s a link to a story in the Washington Monthly which is basically blaming America for the whole problem, on that basis.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022/02/14/how-americas-broken-promises-may-lead-to-a-new-cold-war/

Here is probably the most damning section from it:

“The U.S. non-expansion promise was made several times during discussions in Moscow on February 9, 1990, according to a State Department “memcon” or memorandum of conversation. Secretary of State Baker told Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze that German reunification would be accompanied by “iron-clad guarantees that NATO’s jurisdiction of forces would not move eastward.”

Meeting Gorbachev later that day, Baker reiterated the pledge. “We understand that not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction,” Baker said. “Germany’s unification will not lead to NATO’s military organization spreading to the east.”

However, as the journalist in the piece is using it to make an argument that America is at fault, I think he under-emphasises a few facts. Such as the fact that if there was never any written agreement about expansion - this was just the policy and promises of the US government of the day. The “iron-clad guarantees” that Baker spoke of never actually materialised, presumably as Baker and George Bush Snr. realised that any formal Treaty saying any such thing would never be approved in Congress.

So when Bill Clinton and his Secretary of State Warren Christopher arrived in 1993, they were free to decide to change that foreign policy, which they did by deciding that NATO membership would be needed for geopolitical stability in Eastern Europe, (such was the fear of countries such as Estonia and Poland about post-Soviet Russia).

The only major agreement about the security situation in Eastern Europe that was put in writing at the time was the Budapest Memorandum of 1994. This obligated Russia, the UK, and the U.S. “to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”, and was negotiated in exchange for Ukraine’s relinquishing Soviet nuclear weapons stationed on its territory. Needless to say, Putin has demonstrated since 2014 that this agreement is not worth the paper it was written on, so it is a bit rich for him to be getting so shirty about purely verbal assurances from 1990 not being worth the paper they were NOT written on!

That is not to say that the Russians do not have some reasons to be enbittered about how things worked out regarding the expansion of NATO, but to try and claim that as justification to seize Ukrainian territories in 2022, two decades after the happenings they are complaining of, is a bit of a stretch.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Also, I must say that Moses’s use of the Der Spiegel article is interesting.

Seemingly it is to be understood that verbal commitments made to the USSR in 1990-1991 apply to Russia of today, despite the fact these were conversations with the government of the USSR, represented at that time by Foreign Minister Edward Shevardnadze, a non Russian politician from the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic within the USSR.

But when we look at the decision to transfer Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukraine in the 1950’s, it was all the doings of Soviet politicians from non-Russian Republics, and “no Russian was consulted” - therefore Putin should not feel bound in the slightest by the decision.

Bit of an inconsistency there as to whether Moses regards the Russian Federation as the successor state of the USSR or not.

[Moses]

Bit of an inconsistency there as to whether Moses regards the Russian Federation as the successor state of the USSR or not.

Well, by this logic we have situation: USSR gave, USSR took back...

[StevieWonders]

I would not agree that your example is a great comparisonIf you believe that was the point I was making I suppose your comment has some validity. If you can't work out the point I was making in the context of Moses' statement to which I was replying maybe you should think again. Maybe you should consider the image of Neville Chamberlain on returning from a meeting with Hitler "I have in my hand". How useful was that piece of paper?

[RonanTheBarbarian]

If you believe that was the point I was making I suppose your comment has some validity. If you can't work out the point I was making in the context of Moses' statement to which I was replying maybe you should think again. Maybe you should consider the image of Neville Chamberlain on returning from a meeting with Hitler "I have in my hand". How useful was that piece of paper?

I understood that it was not quite the point you were making, but using that example misleadingly gave the impression that what happened in the 1990's that Putin is so sour about involved a "Treaty" - it did not.

Gorbachev, Shevardnadze or Yeltsin never got any piece of paper in the first place.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Well, by this logic we have situation: USSR gave, USSR took back...

I agree that is a logical way of looking at it - does make the current version of the "USSR" look a bit of a bully though.

[StevieWonders]

I agree that is a logical way of looking at it - does make the current version of the "USSR" look a bit of a bully though.Best joke of the morning so far. I wonder what more the day can bring

[cdnmatt]

Well, by this logic we have situation: USSR gave, USSR took back...

By that logic, I'm sure China wouldn't mind if the UK took Hong Kong back, right?

[Dodger]

.

The only major agreement about the security situation in Eastern Europe that was put in writing at the time was the Budapest Memorandum of 1994. This obligated Russia, the UK, and the U.S. “to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”, and was negotiated in exchange for Ukraine’s relinquishing Soviet nuclear weapons stationed on its territory. Needless to say, Putin has demonstrated since 2014 that this agreement is not worth the paper it was written on, so it is a bit rich for him to be getting so shirty about purely verbal assurances from 1990 not being worth the paper they were NOT written on!

Excellent factual summary of historical events. Your paragraph above says it all.

Thanks for taking the time to outline this for all of us.

[StevieWonders]

There seems to be an element of "shit or get off the pot" going on now. A group of Russian gangsters issued a demand for able-bodied men who could handle a gun issued a call-up almost 24 hours in Ukraine, but since then, nothing

[Moses]

By that logic, I'm sure China wouldn't mind if the UK took Hong Kong back, right?

UK could try, why not? China is quite bigger than UK, results may be unpredictable and not that bright for UK.

But UK still keeps 2 territories within Cyprus "because it is important for intelligence and geo-politic", and pays zero attention to Cyprus's demands to return own territories. 21st century and colonialism still works.

By the way: UK and China had bilateral agreement, there were obligations. USSR transferred Crimea by order of CP USSR. Do you see difference?

[Moses]

Excellent factual summary of historical events. Your paragraph above says it all.

Thanks for taking the time to outline this for all of us.

Yeah, and logic is: if there were no written words, then taken obligation aren't obligations. Right?

Ah. Then Putin does exactly that with Budapest memorandum: obligation aren't obligations. Why you complain? Memorandum isn't agreement, it is political promises.

By the way: Budapest memorandum still isn't ratified by US Senate, UK and RF parliaments, so it is still promises of Yeltsin, Clinton and Major in written form.

Why promises not to extend NATO to the east are broken? Because of new administration in White House, right? Why promises of warranties to Ukraine are broken? Because of new administration in Kremlin. So?

[StevieWonders]

Yeah, and logic is: if there were no written words, then taken obligation aren't obligations. Right?

Ah. Then Putin does exactly that: obligation aren't obligations. Why you complain?I completely agree with your analysis Moses

[Dodger]

Yeah, and logic is: if there were no written words, then taken obligation aren't obligations. Right?

Ah. Then Putin does exactly that with Budapest memorandum: obligation aren't obligations. Why you complain?

Unless a country is being invaded and has to protect itself, launching a military invasion with lethal intent is a crime against humanity...any way you carve the turkey. We've all watched this happening our entire lives, and I doubt it will ever end until everybody loses.

Moses, you're rooting for the wrong side. You should be rooting for "The World".

[Moses]

Unless a country is being invaded and has to protect itself, launching a military invasion with lethal intent is a crime against humanity..

Right. Let me remind to you words: Iraq, Syria, Libya, Vietnam, Korea.
Who was punished for these crimes?
Oh, nobody?
Why?

Why US had withdraw from Rome statute right before intervention to Iraq?
Why US declared sanctions against International Criminal Court members?

Once British minister of foreign affairs David Miliband started to talk with Lavrov on high tones. There was one only phrase what Lavrov told him before to switch phone off: "Who the fuck are you to lecture me?"

PS At next month will be 102 years since fail of British intervention to Russia (including Crimea)
As a memory from that time, there still exists monument in Arkhangelsk: British Mark V

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Mark_in_Arkhangelsk_RU.JPG/1024px-Mark_in_Arkhangelsk_RU.JPG

[RonanTheBarbarian]

By the way: Budapest memorandum still isn't ratified by US Senate, UK and RF parliaments, so it is still promises of Yeltsin, Clinton and Major in written form.

Why promises not to extend NATO to the east are broken? Because of new administration in White House, right? Why promises of warranties to Ukraine are broken? Because of new administration in Kremlin. So?

I understand the point you’re making Moses,I just dont think it is a very good one

The Budapest agreement was a written agreement signed in public by the heads of government.

You cannot compare this to verbal agreements whispered in secret by people at foreign secretary level and lower.

Maybe it is bad that both of them ended up with with one side going back on promises, but surely you will at least admit that the Budapest Memorandum example is objectively worse than the NATO discussions example?

It’s a bit of a silly argument, as Steve said these things change over the decades, but the only reason I bring it up is because many people taking the side of Russia in treads and comment sections underneath newspaper articles are very prone to using the argument that "Its all the West's fault as Russia was betrayed.”

There is an aspect of "two bald man fighting over a comb" to having a debate on this point, but to use another cliched analogy, I think anybody who uses this argument in Russia's favour just looks makes Russia look a bit like the guy who murdered his parents, and then asked for clemency from the Court on the basis that he was now an orphan.

[StevieWonders]

I understand the point you’re making Moses,I just dont think it is a very good one

The Budapest agreement was a written agreement signed in public by the heads of government.

You cannot compare this to verbal agreements whispered in secret by people at foreign secretary level and lower.

Maybe it is bad that both of them ended up with with one side going back on promises, but surely you will at least admit that the Budapest Memorandum example is objectively worse than the NATO discussions example?

It’s a bit of a silly argument, as Steve said these things change over the decades, but the only reason I bring it up is because many people taking the side of Russia in treads and comment sections underneath newspaper articles are very prone to using the argument that "Its all the West's fault as Russia was betrayed.”

There is an aspect of "two bald man fighting over a comb" to having a debate on this point, but to use another cliched analogy, I think anybody who uses this argument in Russia's favour just looks makes Russia look a bit like the guy who murdered his parents, and then asked for clemency from the Court on the basis that he was now an orphan.
Are you perhaps forgetting Lenin’s perspective of “Useful Idiots”?

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Right. Let me remind to you words: Iraq, Syria, Libya, Vietnam, Korea.
Who was punished for these crimes?
Oh, nobody?
Why?

The answer that one is very easy Moses. The truth is absolutely nobody outside of the West seems to give a dam about respecting national sovereignty and the legalities of invading other countries.

So there won’t be a fuss, unless perhaps from within the western countries themselves.

But I will go through the list you have given and make some comments

Iraq - Probably the blackest mark against the West on your list. I was very opposed to that invasion at the time, as were many in Western countries. This war is probably most frequently referenced in the participating countries nowadays for the massive protests that were generated across the world. I wonder, if there is much opposition is in Russia to any military action in Ukraine, is there any chance that the Russians who oppose it would be allowed to hold massive protests in the capital city, like happened in 2004 when the western countries went to war in Iraq?

Libya - Another rather foolish Western intervention. I think there was at least a defensible argument for deciding to topple Gaddaffi by aiding the rebels in that uprising, given what a vicious dictator he was, but I would like to think that the various Foreign ministries concerned it could have advised Brown and Obama et al that they would leave a mess afterwards that would be very difficult to clear up. I think the western governments just got carried away with the idealism of the Arab Spring.

Syria. At least the West concentrated on merely trying to destroy ISIS in this quagmire. As far as I can see, nowadays they have mainly left Turkey and Russia to fight it out in a proxy war. The ongoing agony of this country is a good example that disasters aren’t necessarily avoided just cause the West limits its involvement.

Afghaistan - Not on your list, but it is a good example of how US military adventurism can cause so much needless suffering in reality, despite any good intentions. One wonders why it did not learn the lesson of Russia in the 1980’s, with their disastrous intervention in that unfortunate country?

Vietnam - The USA decided to intervene in a civil war, and ended up getting it getting its arse handed to it. The disaster meant that Lyndon Johnson realised it was pointless to run for another Presidential term in 1968, thus giving the Yanks Nixon. If Russia had a fully functioning democracy, one could perhaps speculate on how, if Ukraine turns out to be a disastrous intervention for a Putin, how might it impact on his chances for re-election?

Korea - A bit before my time. As far as I know about it, it is just another example that the West (Like Russia in Afghanistan and and Angola in the 80’s) has not had a really successful military intervention in an impoverished foreign country since 1945 ( Although in fairness, the USA got a draw in Korea).

[StevieWonders]

The answer that one is very easy Moses. The truth is absolutely nobody outside of the West seems to give a dam about respecting national sovereignty and the legalities of invading other countries.

So there won’t be a fuss, unless perhaps from within the western countries themselves..Not only that, all those assurances the West is giving Putin about certain things not being subject to economic sanctions - payments for gas supplies, for example. Those assurances are worthless. Let's hope Putin has factored that into his plans

[Dodger]

Right. Let me remind to you words: Iraq, Syria, Libya, Vietnam, Korea.
Who was punished for these crimes?

I think you may be missing my point - so let me re-phrase the statement I made earlier which prompted your response.:

"Any country that invades another country with lethal intent is committing a crime against humanity". The only exception would be a situation where a country is forced to defend itself against an aggressor who has lethal intent. When I say "Any Country", that means "Any Country".

None of this will ever end as long as people (of all countries) continue to support governments which are willing to violate these crimes against humanity. This includes the United States as much as it does Russia, Europe, and all the others. I admittedly didn't advance very far in school, but I do remember reading a few history books and was left having nightmares. Russia has been the Titans of War for the past two thousand years and the U.S. isn't much better - so who's kidding who? No wonder the aliens only land here for short visits.

I have to run. Jai is calling me from the other room. It's low-tide and we need a re-supply of clams and crabs which are usually plentiful in the bay this time in the morning.

[StevieWonders]

I have to run. Jai is calling me from the other room. It's low-tide and we need a re-supply of clams and crabs which are usually plentiful in the bay this time in the morning.Interesting to know Amazing Dodgems and his boyfriend cultivate and consume their own crabs. One lives and learns

[StevieWonders]

I see Biden & Putin are to have another talkfest where each of them will make commitments to the other neither of them has the slightest intention of keeping

[cdnmatt]

Maybe this is when Biden threatens to spread some democracy around ala Iraq.

[Moses]

but surely you will at least admit that the Budapest Memorandum example is objectively worse than the NATO discussions example?

No. It is the same. You kept word or you not kept - that's important. Rest is just false excuses: "written"... "vocal"...

And please: Budapest memorandum isn't agreement. It is memorandum. Note for memory. There are no conditions of warranties, no obligations and terms. Only "we met and made promises".

[Nirish guy]

I dont know what all this fuss is about as Russian have no intention of invading anywhere, they're merely moving their own troops around in the their own country, which they're very entitled to do and the fact that some 75% of their land army is now massed on the Ukrainian border is neither here now there, you're all getting excited over nothing and getting on with Putin has some other agenda - he doesn't. We know that as Moses told us so so it MUST be true ! All getting your knickers in a wrist over nothing ffs !


:-)

[Moses]

I dont know what all this fuss is about as Russian have no intention of invading anywhere, they're merely moving their own troops around in the their own country, which they're very entitled to do and the fact that some 75% of their land army is now massed on the Ukrainian border is neither here now there, you're all getting excited over nothing and getting on with Putin has some other agenda - he doesn't. We know that as Moses told us so so it MUST be true ! All getting your knickers in a wrist over nothing ffs !


:-)

Whole Russian army is divided to geographical districts. There are few, and for discussion are important 2: Western and Southern.

Western district has permanent camps/bases along western border of Russia - from the middle of the border with Ukraine to north along with Russia-Belorussia border till Baltic republics.

Southern district has permanent bases/camps along western border of Russia - from the middle of the border with Ukraine to south and covers Caucasus. This district includes 20000 troops in Crimea since USSR time - Russian military bases in Crimea.

Once again: permanent bases/camps along the border with Ukraine have both military districts. Western has 400 000 of military personnel, Southern has 300 000. And when somebody starts hysteria about 130 000, it looks just like a joke. Read my lips: there are 700 000 troops on permanent basis located not far from Ukraine since 1991. And in non-stop regime always are ongoing some trainings and exercises.

[cdnmatt]

What somewhat fascinates me is how folks like Moses are in support of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, when it only serves to benefit the egotistical desires of one man and his henchmen.

If Putin goes ahead with this invasion, the average Russian citizen only stands to lose and be penalized. Folks like Moses will only have a harder life to look forward to, so little unsure why they support such an invasion.

[Moses]

Matt small fact for you: Canada has invasion to Russia in own history. Russia hasn't invasion to Canada.

It is funny how some brains are washed. Russia made no invasion to other countries for centuries, but everyone who watching western TV thinks what "Russian bear is ready to jump". And nobody of them remembers history of own country almost each of them (even Australia!!!) had invasion to Russia in past, but no one has invasion of Russia.

Canadian Siberian Expeditionary Force, 1919

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Canadian_Siberian_Expeditionary_Force_in_Vladivost ok_1919.jpg

[cdnmatt]

Well, enjoy life without the SWIFT banking network. That should do well for the citizens of Russia.

[Dodger]

It is funny how some brains are washed. Russia made no invasion to other countries for centuries

I can't speak for anyone else, but where I was raised in the Midwest of the United States, it was common knowledge that the British held the record when it comes to this. Those conquering maniacs must have invaded over 90% of the countries on the planet during some period in history, where honestly Russia never even entered the conversation when discussing these things. I just pictured Russia as being cold as hell...with robust men who liked chugging vodka...and some dam good hockey players.

[goji]

Russia invaded no other countries for centuries ?
I presume this is only because a lot of the invasions were by the Soviet Union, not Russia.

Those would include:
Afghanistan ?
Poland in 1939. For a while, there was a pact where Germany had the west of Poland and the Soviets had the eastern part. Which they kept after the war.

[Andy]

I guess what is happening now is called "Casus belli"?

[cdnmatt]

Besides, what's all this "Russia doesn't invade" nonsense about? Why do you think RUssia is the biggest country in the entire world? Cause they loved invading!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBlZlmXyR5M

[latintopxxx]

i wonder how many on this board, especially those asking for evidence such as corpses in body bags have actually been to war or experiended uprisngs and conflict.....or is it as if it was all "as on TV"

[Moses]

Well, enjoy life without the SWIFT banking network. That should do well for the citizens of Russia.

SWIFT already announced what no foreign government that has power to order to switch off their service. They do it for Iraq only by decision of General Assembly UN. Watch their website - press news.

[latintopxxx]

...and now I see the clever fox has not invaded the Ukraine but recognised the breakaway Russian majority regions......semantics...lots of wriggle room left for the west to NOT get involved...

[StevieWonders]

I was very impressed by the televised broadcast of Putin and his National Security Council. It gave me great hope for what I believe is the most desirable future for Russia

[StevieWonders]

i wonder how many on this board, especially those asking for evidence such as corpses in body bags have actually been to war or experiended uprisngs and conflict.....or is it as if it was all "as on TV"In case you missed it, latin, the British Royal Family is in favour of a war in Ukraine to distract from the scandal around Prince Andrew https://www.businessinsider.com.au/russia-tv-says-queen-charles-andrew-want-ukraine-war-distraction-2022-2?r=US&IR=T and now that crafty woman The Queen has contracted COVID so as to attract sympathy

[cdnmatt]

And Russia's "peace keeping" mission in Eastern Ukraine has begun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US1BXoCo7Jg

So far the West's response is basically, "ok, but you better not do a full fledged invasion, or else".

[goji]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3042134/What-Putin-face-Russian-leader-Vladimirs-appearance-changed-dramatically-years-looks-younger-ever.html

[cdnmatt]

Who knows, maybe we get lucky, the West can turn this into a "peace keeping" mission into Russia which has the end result of Russia becoming a part of NATO.

That would be cool.

[StevieWonders]

Who knows, maybe we get lucky, the West can turn this into a "peace keeping" mission into Russia which has the end result of Russia becoming a part of NATO..That is not a solution I favour

[cdnmatt]

That is not a solution I favour


Ok, how about the CIA putting poison in Putin's underwear? Do you favor that one?

[StevieWonders]

Ok, how about the CIA putting poison in Putin's underwear? Do you favor that one?How is a Western attack on Russia with the aim of presumably “regime change” (as in that successful model, the Iraq War) different in kind to a Russian attack on Ukraine with the aim similarly of “regime change”?

[StevieWonders]

I see the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz has ordered the withdrawal of a key document needed for certification of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline after Russia's incursion into eastern Ukraine. It will be interesting to see Gazprom’s reaction

[cdnmatt]

How is a Western attack on Russia with the aim of presumably “regime change” (as in that successful model, the Iraq War) different in kind to a Russian attack on Ukraine with the aim similarly of “regime change”?


Well, it's not. I figure fuck it, if Putin is stuck in the Cold War mentality and is unable to move on from the breakup of WARSAW, then it's only right if the West responds in kind and reminds him of who won the Cold War.

[cdnmatt]

If this was the 15th century, I'm pretty confident Vlad would have had Putin impaled on a large spear, because Russians are like that.

[cdnmatt]

And sure enough, Nordstream now cancelled and EU will go elsewhere for its energy needs.

Good job Putin.

[latintopxxx]

....where....and at what cost...

[Brad the Impala]

If this was the 15th century, I'm pretty confident Vlad would have had Putin impaled on a large spear, because Russians are like that.

It may yet happen, metaphorically at least.

[StevieWonders]

I'm disappointed Matt we haven't heard from you how Putin can use Bitcoin to avoid the financial sanctions that the UK & Biden have just imposed

[StevieWonders]

And sure enough, Nordstream now cancelled and EU will go elsewhere for its energy needs.Halting the certification process puts the project on hold but doesn't cancel it altogether, leaving the door ajar to future certification. This might give Berlin some leverage in any future talks with Russia, but that will be for another day

[StevieWonders]

Putin — a former intelligence chief — knows how to mess with the minds of his many enemies and anyone who believes they know what comes next is probably kidding themselves.

[cdnmatt]

Now that the invasion of Ukraine has officially kicked off, when is the invasion of Taiwan going to start?

[a447]

Posts unrelated to this thread have been moved here:

https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?22626&p=288079#post288079

[StevieWonders]

Posts unrelated to this thread have been moved here:

https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showthread.php?22626&p=288079#post288079

Have you sought arsenal’s permission - it was after all started by him?

[Moses]

And sure enough, Nordstream now cancelled and EU will go elsewhere for its energy needs.

Good job Putin.

It is not possible. EU has nowhere to substitute 40% of EU gas market. Bloomberg already calculated that: it EU will contract all vacant gas in world it will substitute only 2/3.


then it's only right if the West responds in kind and reminds him of who won the Cold War.

funny sentence... at times of Cold war it was bipolar world... now it is multipolar... at any time Russia may switch own attention from EU to China/India/South East/Latin America. There are about 200 countries in world, only 30 of which are talking about sanctions.

That why everyone western leader talks now about "strongest", "incredible" and so on sanctions, but by fact they apply sanctions to 5 physical persons and 5 banks 4 of which already are under sanctions. Nobody wants to shoot own legs.

[Moses]

Halting the certification process puts the project on hold but doesn't cancel it altogether, leaving the door ajar to future certification. This might give Berlin some leverage in any future talks with Russia, but that will be for another day

exactly, it just keep status quo - no changes... just frozen investments of $US 9 bln of German investors

by the way: in 2024 is the end of Gasprom contract with Ukraine. Russia may not renew it, and without NS-2 EU will have no gas to sell to Ukraine...

[cdnmatt]

And now Ukraine is calling up some reserves....

I hope this becomes 10 times harder for Russia than Afganistan was, and just completely depletes the economic and military strength of Russia before they finally give up and retrat.

And sure enough, Trump is being an idiot again and calling Putin a genius.

[StevieWonders]

exactly, it just keep status quo - no changes... just frozen investments of $US 9 bln of German investors

by the way: in 2024 is the end of Gasprom contract with Ukraine. Russia may not renew it, and without NS-2 EU will have no gas to sell to Ukraine...2024? I’m not sure my heart will be able stand the excitement for that long. However I don’t understand why the EU would be selling gas to Ukraine. Can you expand on that? Russia will export gas to the EU via NS-2 and the EU will then sell some of it on to Ukraine via?

[StevieWonders]

The financial sanctions announced by the UK are hardly newsworthy; they simply align the UK with longstanding US sanctions. However I’m expecting a link from the Daily Mail to be posted by goji any moment (just don’t mention the acronym RWNJ in the same breath). The next thing I want to see is further details from Moscow about Prince Andrew’s desire for war. Is that his way to rehabilitate himself and regain the military rank and titles he forfeited a couple of weeks ago?

[Moses]

I hope this becomes 10 times harder for Russia than Afganistan was, and just completely depletes the economic and military strength of Russia before they finally give up and retrat.

So you think Russia will invide? Russia will allow local private military companies to sort it out. Like it does in Syria or Mali. "Vagner" will do all dirty job, while Putin will keep distance and say "there are no our regular army". Now, after recognition, "Vagner" is able to sign official contract with these 2 republics.

These Ukrainian nationalist battalions are good only against civilians and for looting. As soon as "Vagner" will take their positions on front line, there will be peace, like it is in Abkhazia now - already 14 years no one shoot, but before 2008 there was 2 wars 1992-1993 and 1998. And right now it is touristic center and sea resort.

https://gullivertour.ru/assets/images/abhazia.jpg

https://piligrim.com.ru/media/image/Abkhazia/Picunda.jpg

https://cdn1.img.sputnik-abkhazia.info/images/101546/43/1015464310.jpg

https://traveltimes.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/abxaz2.jpg

https://www.tourprom.ru/site_media/images/upload/2020/7/31/newsphoto/abhaziya-turizm.jpg

https://img.tourister.ru/files/1/0/8/6/7/0/7/2/clones/900_900_fixed.jpg

https://s2.files.enjourney.ru/upload/4dd81db5422f7c5fb5e61c160c946079/1920x0/a4587ebb4aefedc59adbd532acc1a30c.jpg

[Moses]

2024? I’m not sure my heart will be able stand the excitement for that long. However I don’t understand why the EU would be selling gas to Ukraine. Can you expand on that? Russia will export gas to the EU via NS-2 and the EU will then sell some of it on to Ukraine via?

Officially since 2015 Ukraine counts itself in war with Russia. Unfortunately for Ukraine, Russian forgot to came to war.

Nationalists in Ukraine and Ukrainian propaganda think what it is bad to buy gas from Russia, So some "very smart top guys" made companies in EU what buy gas from Russia and sell it to Ukraine with profit - proxies for to make just one job: change label "Russian gas" to label "European gas". Biden Jr. is member of board of directors in one of Ukrainian gas companies what are involved into gas supply.

Technically Ukraine still receives gas from Russia-EU pipe, but on the paper it virtually comes from EU. Rich golden mine for some people: because Ukraine pays spot prices (these what are $800-1000 on spot) instead of direct contract prices from Russia $200-$250. And EU + IMF subsidize it.

At 2024 contract where Russia has obligation to pump gas via Ukraine to EU will be finished. After that time there will be no virtual reverse from EU (see golden mines above). Also that pipe technically can't pump gas in direction from EU to Ukraine. Do you see?

[Dodger]

The World has been too sluggish when it comes to getting away from using fossil fuels to begin with. Maybe this fiasco (put mildly) will help accelerate the development and production of proven energy alternatives so we can save the environment and lower our dependency on these outdated toxic fossil fuels. (Proven alternatives include, but are not limited to, Hydrogen Gas, Tidal Energy, Biomass Energy, Wind Energy, Geothermal Power, Natural Gas, Biofuels, etc., etc., etc).

Regarding this recent power-play by Russia, it's important to realize that "Energy" is it's economy. Without this resource Russia's economy would be the size of Jamaica's, and if the World reduced its dependency on fossil fuels (which accounts for the vast majority of fuel that Russia produces) we wouldn't be in this predicament right now.

Gas prices are already going up and there will undoubtedly be shortages as a result of this, and everyone is going to suffer to some degree, but there could be a silver lining in the future. If there's an accelerated global transition to using environmentally safe energy alternatives everybody wins in the long run. Well, not exactly everybody.

Time to buy an electric car and stick a windmill in your backyard.

[cdnmatt]

Couple weeks ago some researchers in the UK also made a large break through in fusion power:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9MnnunrRw

If we can manage to get fusion figured out and harnessed, all of our energy woes magically disappear. Thorium is another potential:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMuxjHLLk0E

[Moses]

The World has been too sluggish when it comes to getting away from using fossil fuels to begin with. Maybe this fiasco (put mildly) will help accelerate the development and production of proven energy alternatives so we can save the environment and lower our dependency on these outdated toxic fossil fuels. (Proven alternatives include, but are not limited to, Hydrogen Gas, Tidal Energy, Biomass Energy, Wind Energy, Geothermal Power, Natural Gas, Biofuels, etc., etc., etc).

Regarding this recent power-play by Russia, it's important to realize that "Energy" is it's economy. Without this resource Russia's economy would be the size of Jamaica's, and if the World reduced its dependency on fossil fuels (which accounts for the vast majority of fuel that Russia produces) we wouldn't be in this predicament right now.


Greta Thunberg forgot to tell you what only 20% of gas is going for "Energy". 80% is going for to manufacture fertilizers (Russia controls 40% of world export of ammonium).

Also, all oil+gas sectors in Russian economy, including internal and domestic use are only 15.2% of GDP (2020) and number is going down for many years - it was around 20% 5 years ago.

[StevieWonders]

Over dinner (at G’s) one of my friends was expounding on the televised meeting between Putin and his Security Council. His conclusion was that it was just like the scenes between Stalin and his Politburo in the film “Death of Stalin” - everyone in fear of their life if they disagreed

[goji]

12355

[StevieWonders]

12355No quotes from the Daily Mail? How disappointing

[latintopxxx]

....to be fair thats probably where the fence was originally before the USSR moved it to be nice to the ukraine....bit like crimea...full of Russians... kinda does belong with Russia.

[StevieWonders]

....to be fair thats probably where the fence was originally before the USSR moved it to be nice to the ukraine....bit like crimea...full of Russians... kinda does belong with Russia.I would report verbatim the conversation I had over coffee yesterday except the Mods will get their red pens out as the “W” word was bandied about, suggestive of the idea that this is just an argument between fishwives over the back fence

[cdnmatt]

And the missiles have begun flying...

[Dodger]

Greta Thunberg forgot to tell you what only 20% of gas is going for "Energy". 80% is going for to manufacture fertilizers (Russia controls 40% of world export of ammonium).

Also, all oil+gas sectors in Russian economy, including internal and domestic use are only 15.2% of GDP (2020) and number is going down for many years - it was around 20% 5 years ago.

As we all know, Russia's economy is dependent on the export of oil and natural gas, both of which are under the control of the Russian government. This lack of economic diversification puts Russia at a disadvantage when demand for its energy products plummet, which then causes the Russian economy to contract.

While Russia is a very resource-rich country, it suffers from intense social inequality as I'm sure you are aware, with the top 1% of the Russian population controlling 71% of the nation's wealth, and 13% of Russians living in poverty. Unfortunately, the majority of people living in extreme poverty are children. Quite similar to Thailand in these regards which is unfortunate.

The fact that the World's reliance on fossil fuels will decline significantly over-time is no mystery to anyone. It's not like we have a choice.

Some people are marginalizing the effects of Western Sanctions during this crisis, but it's extremely doubtful that the oligarchs (who control the wealth in Russia) aren't extremely concerned while trying to protect their fortunes. For the Russian working-class (99% of its population) it's just another stick in the eye.

Like most people, I hope this problem can be resolved diplomatically, but that's starting to look extremely doubtful (what and understatement).

[StevieWonders]

And the missiles have begun flying...I see Sleepy Joe has said “the prayers of the world are with the people of Ukraine “. I think that’s the same formula American presidents use after a high school shooting - “thoughts and prayers”

[cdnmatt]

Apparently it's ok, because Putin said he has no plans to occupy Ukraine.

Right.... is that the same as he had no plans to invade?

[StevieWonders]

What is crystal clear is that Putin regards the sanctions announced so far as derisory and a provocation. To be effective, what follows will have to be painful for him and us. If Putin’s Russia is to be a pariah, the West – and the EU in particular – has to stop injecting hundreds of millions of dollars into the Russian economy daily with purchases of its gas and other hydrocarbons. We need to brace ourselves for immediate increases of perhaps a third in oil and gas prices. This has the makings of an energy crunch like that of the early 1970s.

We are witnessing the start of a war that will define – and for the worse – the new post-Covid age.

[Moses]

While Russia is a very resource-rich country, it suffers from intense social inequality as I'm sure you are aware, with the top 1% of the Russian population controlling 71% of the nation's wealth, and 13% of Russians living in poverty. Unfortunately, the majority of people living in extreme poverty are children. Quite similar to Thailand in these regards which is unfortunate.

where you got that propaganda?

list of countries with inequality of wealth is published by World Bank and CIA yearly. Gini index reflects it clearly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Look for Russia there and for example US: even Haiti is more equal than US is...

if here really will exist "suffers" then population will not support Putin, but his ratings are above 60%...

[Brad the Impala]

So you think Russia will invide? Russia will allow local private military companies to sort it out. Like it does in Syria or Mali. "Vagner" will do all dirty job, while Putin will keep distance and say "there are no our regular army".

Really?

[Moses]

Really?

Really.

Nobody learn lessons of history. Georgia 2008. Saakashvili started to fire in Ossetia, at next day Russian tanks were near Tbilisi. 3-day war.

Yesterday at 23:30 Ukrainian army started fire in Donetsk region and tried to cross North Donets river. Today Russia destroyed all Ukrainian air bases and army control centers. Mobile networks, radio communications and TV at next to Russian borders regions are suppressed. How far will be tanks we will know at next 1-2 days.

As per news from Ukraine, Ukrainian solders run from army, leaving uniform and weapons. Only volunteers in nazi battalions are trying to control situation.

My relatives in Crimea, Donetsk and Kiev say "finally".

[Dodger]

......where you got that propaganda?

Can't remember. It's so easy to come across these days.

Let's try this one.

"The richest 10 percent of Russians own 87 percent of the country’s wealth, making it the most unequal of the world’s major economies".

https://borgenproject.org/income-inequality-in-russia/

In all due respect, you live there - not me, so if you're comfortable with the wealth distribution who am I to argue.

[Moses]

Can't remember. It's so easy to come across these days.

Let's try this one.

"The richest 10 percent of Russians own 87 percent of the country’s wealth, making it the most unequal of the world’s major economies".

https://borgenproject.org/income-inequality-in-russia/

As per World Bank Index Gini in Russia 37, in US 41. Well, looks like there should be "The richest of Americans own 93% of country wealth, making it even more most unequal..."

or

"The richest 10 percent of Russians own 87 percent of the country’s wealth, making it the most unequal of the world’s major economies after US and China".

[cdnmatt]

Yesterday at 23:30 Ukrainian army started fire in Donetsk region and tried to cross North Donets river.

I don't know, it's your President that's well known for false flags and propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVumec3ZQ9A

[Moses]

I don't know, it's your President that's well known for false flags and propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVumec3ZQ9A

Matt, I have news from first hands and trust to relative's words more than into YouTube.

All I can say right now: Ukrainian border guards don't resist and just filming fast moving by roads Russian tanks. In the next to border Kharkov region Russian tanks circled capital Kharkov and left corridor to the west for all who wants to run. There are traffic jams on the west road from Kharkov and fights for car fuel on fuel stations.

[cdnmatt]

I'm sure the US has a nice home ready for Putin in Gitmo.

[Moses]

I'm sure the US has a nice home ready for Putin in Gitmo.

Why you think what US has rights to intervene into? US should pay for Iraq, Libya, Syria and Afghanistan first.

[cdnmatt]

You're missing something here though...

... Ukraine is full of white people.

[Moses]

You're missing something here though...

... Ukraine is full of white people.

First: it is racism.

Second: You are missing here too - not Russia started these games "Ukraine should be in NATO". "Red lines" were declared far in advance and clearly. All is going - power game btw US and Russia. Ukraine is victim of this game, fools that have hopes for US's support. Like Georgia in 2008.

Now more important what tone will take China. There is possibility what destiny of Taiwan will be involved in that game also.

[cdnmatt]

I'm not personally racist, I'm just saying what nobody else is willing to say but everyone knows is true. Besides, little tough to be racist when you're blind.

And see what happens. This invasion seems to have pissed off the world a whole lot more than Georgia.

[Moses]

I'm not personally racist, I'm just saying what nobody else is willing to say but everyone knows is true. Besides, little tough to be racist when you're blind.

And see what happens. This invasion seems to have pissed off the world a whole lot more than Georgia.

Not that much as it is declared. Few countries are talking about sanctions. There is no news - they spoke about sanctions last half of the year, even about "preventive sanctions".

EU will not stop to buy gas. US will not stop to buy rocket engines, titanium. All these countries what buy Russian wheat, oil, gas will do it as usual. Only "prays for Ukraine" will sounds more loudly.

And Russia still pumping gas via Ukraine to EU.

[cdnmatt]

Not that much as it is declared. Few countries are talking about sanctions. There is no news - they spoke about sanctions last half of the year, even about "preventive sanctions".

The invasion just started literally a few hours ago. How do you possibly know how this is going to go down?

[Moses]

The invasion just started literally a few hours ago. How do you possibly know how this is going to go down?

nobody knows what exactly it will be, but there are no substitutions for Russian gas, titanium and grain. So sanctions will avoid these sectors and that will be subject of bargain btw Russia and West - what West will scarify in exchange. Economic will speak loudly than politic - every govt thinks about next elections and nobody wants to let voters to be cold, hungry and angry because of that, especially when next elected govt may be pro-Russian right wing.

There will be a lot of words about how bad is Russia, but Russia isn't Iraq, too much regional economics depends on Russia. So there will be a lot of diplomacy under carpet and as result situation will be calmed very soon by historical scale: Turkey still keeps half of Cyprus, 50 years soon.

[Dodger]

Not that much as it is declared. Few countries are talking about sanctions. There is no news - they spoke about sanctions last half of the year, even about "preventive sanctions".

Watch the news tomorrow morning Russia time.

Just a guess, but it looks like more than just a few countries are going to be imposing sanctions. I've been surfing CNBC, BBC, CNN. and Al Jazeera here in Thailand all afternoon and you won't believe the level of sanctions they're talking about...and it's more than just a few countries. Sounds real nasty.

Again, as I've been saying all along, all we can do is pray for a last-minute diplomatic solution to de-fuse Putin before more innocent people start getting killed. They're already reporting heavy military fatalities on both sides and the war just started.

I need a corona and a joint.

[cdnmatt]

Unfortunately, doesn't seem to be any way to kick Russia off the UN Security Council.

[Moses]

Sounds real nasty.


There will be a lot of words about how bad is Russia, but Russia isn't Iraq, too much regional economics depends on Russia. So there will be a lot of diplomacy under carpet and as result situation will be calmed very soon by historical scale: Turkey still keeps half of Cyprus, 50 years soon.

I'm cynic and realist.

Me personally don't like what's going on. A lot of Russian newsmakers are talking now what it is wrong step. But geopolitics are geopolitics and as result half of Cyprus is still occupped by Turkey and UK. Ukraine isn't subject but is object in that game.

I hope for "Georgian variant'2008". As result current Ukrainian president will lost his chair, new govt will include interests of own Russian entice group, has cooperation with Russia in own plans and will be less depends on West's opinions.

[StevieWonders]

I'm cynic and realist. .I’m a sceptic and a cynic; many people get the two confused

[cdnmatt]

That's it, now there's PHP developers out there calling for the boycott of the PHP Russia conference.

Putin's really in trouble now, haha.

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Putin may succeed in installing a pro-Russian quisling government in Ukraine, but in the long term Russia will be the loser in this.

At the moment Putin is unlikely to cut off Europe from its natural gas, as he needs the money. Particularly as the amount of natural gas he can sell will be less than would have been expected anyway, presuming that the Ukrainian lines will be cut and Nordstream 2 will never start.

What will be the immediate shortages and issues for Western Europe from the invasion?

The main strategic exports of Russia and Ukraine are oil, gas and wheat. The EU is more or less self-sufficient in grain, the real sufferers of a wheat export collapse will be countries like Turkey, Egypt and Iraq.

But there is a very good chance that Western (and later central) Europe will now get itself organised to start importing enough liquid natural gas from the USA and Qatar to cover their needs. I’m not certain this will happen, Germany is so addicted to cheap Russian gas that it’s hard to be certain what they will do, but the shock of the current crisis may induce even Germany to give it up.

When that happens, Putin may be left just supplying his gas for half-nothing to the quisling government in Ukraine (I am sure that cheap gas will be the least that they demand). If he wants a decent price he will be faced with the challenge of transporting his gas from the European Arctic thousands of miles to China.

Less profitable,and Putin will also have lost all his leverage with Western Europe. So he might win Ukraine, but it will be a strategic failure for a Putin.

(And I’m not presuming that he will gain a definite victory in Ukraine. Obviously Russian forces are more powerful, but he could get bogged down in a long grinding campaign there if the Ukrainians hold out in western Ukraine)

[Moses]

The main strategic exports of Russia and Ukraine are oil, gas and wheat. The EU is more or less self-sufficient in grain, the real sufferers of a wheat export collapse will be countries like Turkey, Egypt and Iraq.

Russia controls 17-20% of world wheat trade, North Africa will be in big troubles because there are not enough wheat to substitute it at least in this year.




But there is a very good chance that Western (and later central) Europe will now get itself organised to start importing enough liquid natural gas from the USA and Qatar to cover their needs. I’m not certain this will happen, Germany is so addicted to cheap Russian gas that it’s hard to be certain what they will do, but the shock of the current crisis may induce even Germany to give it up.

If EU will contract all not contracted yet gas in World then it will cover only 2/3 of demands and prices will rocketing very high. Also farmers will be in huge troubles because 80% of gas is used for fertilizers production. And here you will find what Russia controls 40% of ammonium market. Then see my note above about wheat.

Russia exports more gas than Norway and Canada together. 24 times more than United Arab Emirates.

Here are the 10 countries with the highest natural gas production:
Russia (47,805 billion cubic meters)
Iran (33,721 billion cubic meters)
Qatar (24,072 billion cubic meters)
United States (15,484 billion cubic meters)
Saudi Arabia (9,200 billion cubic meters)
Turkmenistan (7,504 billion cubic meters)
United Arab Emirates (6,091 billion cubic meters)
Venezuela (5,740 billion cubic meters)
Nigeria (5,475 billion cubic meters)
China (5,440 billion cubic meters)




When that happens, Putin may be left just supplying his gas for half-nothing to the quisling government in Ukraine (I am sure that cheap gas will be the least that they demand). If he wants a decent price he will be faced with the challenge of transporting his gas from the European Arctic thousands of miles to China.

Less profitable,and Putin will also have lost all his leverage with Western Europe. So he might win Ukraine, but it will be a strategic failure for a Putin.


If you will open Google map and check distance then you will find what measured path to China and Koreas, to Japan is shorter from Sabetta (new port on the North of Russia), than from Qatar not mention US. And Russia now has in Sabetta 15 huge ice breaking gas tankers + 8 nuclear powered icebreakers. Also Russia has 2 working gas pipes to China from Eastern Siberia (google Power of Siberia gas pipeline) and third is close to start to work.

Sabetta:

https://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/2/r/f_c2RlbGFub3VuYXMucnUvdXBsb2Fkcy8zLzEvMzExMTUwMTcx MjU0N19vcmlnLmpwZWc_X19pZD05NjQ3OQ==.jpeg

Icebreaker:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTWduuQW0AQTd9j.jpg

Gas tanker for to use in ice

https://flagman-news.ru/news/2021120111_cover.jpg

So news about "less profit" and "leverage" are quite fake.

[StevieWonders]

Like most people, I hope this problem can be resolved diplomatically, but that's starting to look extremely doubtful (what and understatement).
I’m looking forward to Dodger’s full throated embrace of Enlightenment values

[StevieWonders]

I notice the ethnically Russian Bloomberg reporter Misyriena Egkolfopoulou says that more than 17 million Russians or 12% of the population are cryptocurrency owners

https://www.bloomberglinea.com/2022/02/24/cryptocurrency-is-a-potential-new-tool-for-russian-billionaires-to-avoid-sanctions/

[StevieWonders]

Russia controls 17-20% of world wheat trade, North Africa will be in big troubles because there are not enough wheat to substitute it at least in this year..I understand China has lifted its restrictions on the import of Russian wheat

[StevieWonders]

The government of Thailand has focussed on the most important potential outcome of the conflict - the potential fall in Russian and Ukraine tourists

[cdnmatt]

33% drop in the Russian stocket market before they halted trading, 10.5% drop in Rubles, dozens of anti-war protests across Russia with over 1700 arrests, massive international condemnation and sanctions, et al.

[Dodger]

33% drop in the Russian stocket market before they halted trading, 10.5% drop in Rubles, dozens of anti-war protests across Russia with over 1700 arrests, massive international condemnation and sanctions, et al.

Possibly even more impacting is the fact that Putin's actions have just given the "Green Light" to every free nation on Earth to impose whatever sanctions they want on Russia without having to justify their actions to anyone. It appears that the Russian people are already aware of this, and not too happy.

[cdnmatt]

If you scroll through https://reddit.com/r/ukraine apparently there's loads of photos of soliders there, and from the responses I guess they just look like kids on both sides.

Kids going off to kill each other for some delusional old man's nostalgic memory of grandeur. Lovely.

[StevieWonders]

If you scroll through https://reddit.com/r/ukraine apparently there's loads of photos of soliders there, and from the responses I guess they just look like kids on both sides.

Kids going off to kill each other for some delusional old man's nostalgic memory of grandeur. Lovely.Give up, Matt - Putin has won this one

[cdnmatt]

Give up, Matt - Putin has won this one

I know, time to get Putin onto an aircraft carrier with the Mission Accomplished banner out behind him.

[StevieWonders]

I know, time to get Putin onto an aircraft carrier with the Mission Accomplished banner out behind him.Just like George Bush, Putin is a Christian (and proud of having restored the Russian Orthodox Church to its privileged position)

[cdnmatt]

I'm just curious as to what the upcoming civil war in Ukraine will look like. Iraq didn't exactly have the backing of the West in this manner, so this should be interesting.

[StevieWonders]

Possibly even more impacting is the fact that Putin's actions have just given the "Green Light" to every free nation on Earth to impose whatever sanctions they want on Russia without having to justify their actions to anyone. It appears that the Russian people are already aware of this, and not too happy.
With Dodgems so keen to talk about "free nations", perhaps he should put that in the context of the latest Freedom House assessment of Thailand - the country where our Dodgems (founder member of the Forum bookburners) has chosen to live is not a free country and is falling down the rankings. https://freedomhouse.org/country/thailand/freedom-world/2021

[latintopxxx]

...no one cares about Ukraine...sorry...thats the truth...without Russian gas/oil Europe will freeze to death within a week...

[cdnmatt]

...no one cares about Ukraine...sorry...thats the truth...without Russian gas/oil Europe will freeze to death within a week...


Who shit in your cornflakes today?

[Moses]

33% drop in the Russian stocket market before they halted trading, 10.5% drop in Rubles, dozens of anti-war protests across Russia with over 1700 arrests, massive international condemnation and sanctions, et al.

33% of market - western investors run from western sanctions and withdrew investments... they will be substituted by middle easterns and Chinese

-10,5% drop in rubles are today +5% and will continue... speculations

protesters - yes, like protests during Vietnam war in USA they will demonstrate presence of democracy here... and like in USA there will be a lot of police...

by the way: Ukrainian state bonds yesterday was 37-55% from nominal price, and for to serve state debt Ukraine now pays 186% of interest...

[Moses]

I'm just curious as to what the upcoming civil war in Ukraine will look like. Iraq didn't exactly have the backing of the West in this manner, so this should be interesting.

like last 8 years in Donbas...

[StevieWonders]

Hacker collective Anonymous has disabled several Russian government websites including the state-controlled "Russia Today" news service.


RT has been described as a major propaganda outlet for the Russian government
The DDoS attack flooded the news website with malicious traffic, blocking access for at least several hours
It is the first attack in an expected wave of "cyber activism" against the Russian government
Hackers identifying with the Anonymous collective announced they had launched cyber operations that briefly took down RT.com, as well as the websites of the Kremlin, the Russian government and the Russian defence ministry websites.


RT.com confirmed the attack took place, saying it slowed some websites down while taking others offline for "extended periods of time".

[cdnmatt]

I love how people like to call that hacking.

That's not hacking. That's firing up a botnet.

[Moses]

Hacker collective Anonymous has disabled several Russian government websites including the state-controlled "Russia Today" news service.


RT has been described as a major propaganda outlet for the Russian government
The DDoS attack flooded the news website with malicious traffic, blocking access for at least several hours
It is the first attack in an expected wave of "cyber activism" against the Russian government
Hackers identifying with the Anonymous collective announced they had launched cyber operations that briefly took down RT.com, as well as the websites of the Kremlin, the Russian government and the Russian defence ministry websites.


RT.com confirmed the attack took place, saying it slowed some websites down while taking others offline for "extended periods of time".

In 2012 they hacked FBI
in 2015 Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, The New York Times, and BBC New
in 2020 UN

they are quite skilled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(hacker_group)

[StevieWonders]

In 2012 they hacked FBI
in 2015 Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, The New York Times, and BBC New
in 2020 UN

they are quite skilled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(hacker_group)From stories I've read today, there's been an expectation that one of Putin's responses to Western sanctions will be Russian hackers attacking Western government and business sites. It seems that everyone and anyone on both sides can play that game

[Moses]

From stories I've read today, there's been an expectation that one of Putin's responses to Western sanctions will be Russian hackers attacking Western government and business sites. It seems that everyone and anyone on both sides can play that game

RT case isn't real hacking - hackers hacks few tens of thousands of ordinary computers in homes and small companies that are without any protection and then just send requests to attacked website. Server can't answer to such amount of requests and going down. SGT also is under such attack from time to time.

By the way: now you see how "correct" were Western mass-media and govts in accusation of Russia in attacks of Anonymous Group and their links to FSB and Kremlin.

[StevieWonders]

RT case isn't real hackingThat is excellent news Moses. I recall seeing stories at other times that so-called “Russian”hackers were based in Ukraine. With this invasion Putin now has the opportunity to eliminate these scoundrels and restore Russia’s good name

[Moses]

While we are watching news from Ukraine, I want to show to you some photos.

This place in Donetsk named Volley of Angels. It is located in the "capital" of so named Donetsk Republic - region of so named separatists, where Russians are majority.

Volley of Angels is child cemetery and memorial place for kids who were killed by Ukrainian nationalists at past 8 years. Numbers on right side - age.

https://cont.ws/uploads/pic/2018/11/ангелы.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHq0cWeXoAU2O6U.jpg

https://stihi.ru/pics/2021/04/05/1702.jpg

https://cont.ws/uploads/pic/2017/6/photo__900.jpg

[StevieWonders]

All this news from Ukraine is too depressing. I think I'll watch something uplifting about Catherine the Great. Perhaps I'll watch the second series of The Great, where her husband the Czar boasts a lot about the size of his cock. A far more fitting topic for SGT

[cdnmatt]

I wonder how clear eyed Putin is about all this? We all know Putin's subordinates are scared of him, so is he getting accurate and truthful information or is he getting the information that pleases him?

Kinda like how Trump was. Trump doesn't like the forecast of a hurricane? No problem, one of his staff will just grab a marker and draw the forecast Trump likes on the map.

[StevieWonders]

I wonder how clear eyed Putin is about all this? We all know Putin's subordinates are scared of him, so is he getting accurate and truthful information or is he getting the information that pleases him?

Kinda like how Trump was. Trump doesn't like the forecast of a hurricane? No problem, one of his staff will just grab a marker and draw the forecast Trump likes on the map.Thanks for the reminder Matt - if Catherine the Great palls, I can always watch The Death of Stalin again

[cdnmatt]

Thanks for the reminder Matt - if Catherine the Great palls, I can always watch The Death of Stalin again

I recommend Vlad the Impaler, now ther's a decent documentary.

Russian leaders -- such splitting images of Ghandi, aren't they?

[StevieWonders]

It’s disappointing that goji hasn’t given us the thoughts of the Daily Mail in the past 48 hours

[StevieWonders]

I recommend Vlad the Impaler, now ther's a decent documentary.

Russian leaders -- such splitting images of Ghandi, aren't they?Is there a film about the 1933 famine that Stalin imposed on Ukraine?

[cdnmatt]

Just like George Bush, Putin is a Christian (and proud of having restored the Russian Orthodox Church to its privileged position)

Yeah, but I bet Putin does his mission accomplished speech shirtless while riding a grizzly bear.

[Moses]

Georgia just announced what country will not support sanctions against Russia. Nobody likes nationalists besides nationalists.

[cdnmatt]

Georgia just announced what country will not support sanctions against Russia. Nobody likes nationalists besides nationalists.

Right, and I'm sure their decision has nothing to do with them watching Ukraine get invaded just now.

[cdnmatt]

Is there a film about the 1933 famine that Stalin imposed on Ukraine?

Meh, kind of mundane. However, here's one where Stalin shoved 6000 political prisoners on what was dubbed "Cannibal Island" to farm for the Soviet Union though. It has a little more ooommpfff to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaOwcYLGTMo

[StevieWonders]

Georgia just announced what country will not support sanctions against Russia. Nobody likes nationalists besides nationalists.Evidently Georgia isn’t one of those “free” countries that Dodger so admires

[StevieWonders]

Meh, kind of mundane. However, here's one where Stalin shoved 6000 political prisoners on what was dubbed "Cannibal Island" to farm for the Soviet Union though. It has a little more ooommpfff to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaOwcYLGTMoCannibalism apparently was a feature of the 1933 famine

[alvnv]

Evidently Georgia isn’t one of those “free” countries that Dodger so admires

Not since it’s run by a Russian oligarch

[StevieWonders]

Not since it’s run by a Russian oligarchSpeaking of Dodger and “free” countries, I see the loopy UK politician Nadine Dorries has called on the UK regulator to monitor the propaganda RT is broadcasting about Ukraine. What a wonderful way to show Russia that we in the West believe in freedom of speech - by threatening to censor a broadcaster we don’t like. That is exactly the position of goji and Dodger who want every member here whose posts they don’t like banned whereas Moses who belongs to (in their view to an “unfree nation) has dismissed their demands. I suppose the Mods will allow me to keep the words “loopy” and “Dodger” in the same sentence

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Not since it’s run by a Russian oligarch

At least it is free enough that there were huge protests in Georgia against the war, which would not be allowed in Russia, it seems.

[StevieWonders]

At least it is free enough that there were huge protests in Georgia against the war, which would not be allowed in Russia, it seems.Stalin was Georgian as I recall

[Dodger]

At least it is free enough that there were huge protests in Georgia against the war, which would not be allowed in Russia, it seems.

The real surprise is watching the protests that are occurring around the World also being staged in Russia.

We've passed the brink...all the pieces on the board are frantically being moved...and one day, after we're all gone, the history books will show the end results. I hate missing the end of a suspenseful movie, but unfortunately the final chapter will take forever to write, and by the time it's complete, we'll all be dust.

[StevieWonders]

… and one day, after we're all gone, the history books will show the end results.Theres’s a profound thought

[cdnmatt]

I hate missing the end of a suspenseful movie, but unfortunately the final chapter will take forever to write, and by the time it's complete, we'll all be dust.


Come on, don't be so pessimistic. Putin seems pretty unhinged and demanding right now, plus he has over 6000 nukes at his disposal, so chin up as you might not miss out on the end of humanity.

[Khor tose]

While we are watching news from Ukraine, I want to show to you some photos.

This place in Donetsk named Volley of Angels. It is located in the "capital" of so named Donetsk Republic - region of so named separatists, where Russians are majority.

Volley of Angels is child cemetery and memorial place for kids who were killed by Ukrainian nationalists at past 8 years. Numbers on right side - age.

It is called The Alley of Angels, and it is a monument to the children killed by landmines. Leaving this off your teary tale makes it almost a lie. By the way you watch way too much Russian television

[cdnmatt]

Come on Khor Tose, you know Moses doesn't let facts get in the way of perfectly consumable bias.

Ukrainians are evil child murdering nationalists, and Russians are peace keepers who just wish we could all get along. What's so hard about that?

[cdnmatt]

If current reports are to be believed, sounds like the Russians are getting a bit of a smackdown over there...

[StevieWonders]

If current reports are to be believed, sounds like the Russians are getting a bit of a smackdown over there...Fake news?

[cdnmatt]

Never ignore a learning experience, in case you find yourself in urban combat someday, some tips from a US marine:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t1ntcb/urban_warfare_tips_from_a_former_marine/

[cdnmatt]

Fake news?

Just wait for that fake sarin gas to come out. For defensive purposes, of course.

[StevieWonders]

Just wait for that fake sarin gas to come out. For defensive purposes, of course.That Court Jester role fits you perfectly. And Reddit now as well as YouTube!

[Moses]

It is called The Alley of Angels, and it is a monument to the children killed by landmines. Leaving this off your teary tale makes it almost a lie. By the way you watch way too much Russian television



Not a land mines, but shells. It is typical mistake what does not native translators: in Russian and Ukrainian shells and land mines named "mines" - "мины"

https://sharij.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/miny.jpg

[Ninodf1]

As they say you can’t reason with a drunk

[StevieWonders]

Not a land mines, but shells. It is typical mistake what does not native translators: in Russian and Ukrainian shells and land mines named "mines" - "мины"Let's hope Khortose is reassured by that

[Brad the Impala]

Volley of Angels is child cemetery and memorial place for kids who were killed by Ukrainian nationalists at past 8 years.




The Alley of Angels in Donetsk, Ukraine is a memorial for children of Donbas killed during the War in Donbas.

Sounds like they weren't just killed by Nationalists. More propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley_of_Angels

[StevieWonders]

From SWIFT to Russia - “Goodbye”

“ First, we commit to ensuring that selected Russian banks are removed from the SWIFT messaging system. This will ensure that these banks are disconnected from the international financial system and harm their ability to operate globally.

Second, we commit to imposing restrictive measures that will prevent the Russian Central Bank from deploying its international reserves in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions.”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/02/26/joint-statement-on-further-restrictive-economic-measures/

[Moses]

From SWIFT to Russia - “Goodbye”

“ First, we commit to ensuring that selected Russian banks are removed from the SWIFT messaging system. This will ensure that these banks are disconnected from the international financial system and harm their ability to operate globally.

Second, we commit to imposing restrictive measures that will prevent the Russian Central Bank from deploying its international reserves in ways that undermine the impact of our sanctions.”

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/02/26/joint-statement-on-further-restrictive-economic-measures/

some "selected banks" should we care? here are 600+ banks what are using SWIFT... by the way: there are about 20 banks located in Crimea, all not using SWIFT and all are working normally already 8 years... Russia has own international system for interbank messaging along with Chinese own system...

[StevieWonders]

some "selected banks" should we care? here are 600+ banks what are using SWIFT... by the way: there are about 20 banks located in Crimea, all not using SWIFT and all are working normally already 8 years... Russia has own international system for interbank messaging along with Chinese own system...
Excellent news Moses. We can all sleep easy tonight

[Moses]

12360

[Moses]

Correction: now in Russia are 331 bank, 5 of them are under sanctions.

[cdnmatt]

Now just watch Moses, in a few months when Russia's economy really begins feeling these impacts you're going to get all pissed off and blame the West. Can't possibly be the dear leader's fault for invading Ukraine... no, no... it'll be the West's fault for being a bully.

One thing I've never understood... nobody really knows, but tere's speculation Putin is worth around $200 billion USD. Whatever the amount is, it's massive and he's most likely the richest man in the world.

How are Russians who support Putin possibly ok with that though? Do they think he's just a really intelligent businessman, or are they totally fine with him being a criminal who plunders and pillages what should be one of the wealthiest nations on the planet while leaving his fellow countrymen to suffer widespread poverty?

For example, if it somehow emerged that Trudeau had a good $60 billion tucked away in personal wealth, I'm quite confident he'd have some explaining to do to the Canadian people. It'd make that recent trucker protest look like Sunday brunch at church.

[Dodger]

Correction: now in Russia are 331 bank, 5 of them are under sanctions.

This historic level of sanctions being imposed on Russia is in a state of flux which is understandable. I don't think the European Commission has released the actual number of Russian banks which will be blocked from SWIFT yet. They have simply announced the fact that a decision has been made to block select banks.

One could imagine that the blocking of SWIFT from select Russian banks is just a small piece of a very large picture with so many countries imposing sanctions simultaneously. it will probably take weeks if not longer to see how these small pieces fit together in order for Russia to realize the full impact.

Hopefully (for every ones sake) Putin will agree to negotiate some sort of compromise before more people die.

[cdnmatt]

Even the world's favorite eccentric billionaire is helping out. Activated Starlink in Ukraine, and is sending more modules to the country for communications and internet access that Russia can't knock out.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1497701484003213317

[Andy]

How are Russians who support Putin possibly ok with that though? Do they think he's just a really intelligent businessman, or are they totally fine with him being a criminal who plunders and pillages what should be one of the wealthiest nations on the planet while leaving his fellow countrymen to suffer widespread poverty?


There are only two types of such people - 1. Somehow involved in the system and making a profit; 2. Fabulously stupid, brainwashed by propaganda.

[StevieWonders]

There are only two types of such people - 1. Somehow involved in the system and making a profit; 2. Fabulously stupid, brainwashed by propaganda.I see Abramovivich has given control (but not ownership) of Chelsea Football Club to a "collective", but I wonder about the reputational damage to any business known to be owned by a Russian who has known or perceived sympathies to the Russian government

[cdnmatt]

Hmmm... not much in terms of news tonight.

I'm going to assume this isn't one of those cases where no news is good news?

Anyway, wonder if those Canadian truckers and others feel stupid about crying bloody murder about the Canadian government and that tyrant Trudeau for asking them to get a vaccine hence stripping them of their basic freedoms?

[StevieWonders]

Hmmm... not much in terms of news tonight.

I'm going to assume this isn't one of those cases where no news is good news?

Anyway, wonder if those Canadian truckers and others feel stupid about crying bloody murder about the Canadian government and that tyrant Trudeau for asking them to get a vaccine hence stripping them of their basic freedoms?I guess as truckers they're licensed to drive heavy vehicles. The UK Ministry of Defence is reporting that the advancing Russian army includes mobile crematoriums to dispose of the bodies of dead soldiers so the scenes of body bags returning to Russia can be avoided (so upsetting to their families, you know, who might be tempted to blame Putin)

[Moses]

The UK Ministry of Defence is reporting that the advancing Russian army includes mobile crematoriums to dispose of the bodies of dead soldiers so the scenes of body bags returning to Russia can be avoided (so upsetting to their families, you know, who might be tempted to blame Putin)

They are contractors. Them and their families knew risks before to sign contracts. Families will receive insurance compensation.

[cdnmatt]

So how much does a dead 19 year old net you in the motherland?

EDIT: Well, that didn't take long to find. I guess the Russia government just says the kid died instead of got killed, hence no need for this whole compensation thing.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/09/29/dead-but-not-killed

[StevieWonders]

They are contractors. Them and their families knew risks before to sign contracts. Families will receive insurance compensation.A consolation indeed to their families. Is a contractor the same as a mercenary?

[Moses]

A consolation indeed to their families. Is a contractor the same as a mercenary?

no... mercenary - soldier in private military company, contractor - solder in state army... they have quite high salary, insurance, health service benefits and 45-days holidays with free tickets to any point of Russia for whole family yearly... in case of death at time of service family will receive insurance (it is enough for to educate 2 kids 6 years each in top-50 Russian University, or 1 kid 6 years in TOP-1 University) + 1 year salary

[StevieWonders]

no... mercenary - soldier in private military company, contractor - solder in state army... they have quite high salary, insurance, health service benefits and 45-days holidays with free tickets to any point of Russia for whole family yearly... in case of death at time of service family will receive insurance (it is enough for to educate 2 kids 6 years each in top-50 Russian University, or 1 kid 6 years in TOP-1 University) + 1 year salaryIt sounds a great career opportunity

[Moses]

So how much does a dead 19 year old net you in the motherland?

EDIT: Well, that didn't take long to find. I guess the Russia government just says the kid died instead of got killed, hence no need for this whole compensation thing.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/09/29/dead-but-not-killed

2007, really? and 41 case for 10 years? Sure, it is enough for to make conclusion :)

"Died" means death from non-combatant reasons: died in drunk fight and so on.

By the way: this 19 yo kid wasn't contractor. He was trainee in military camp. Russia has 2 kinds of "soldiers": trainee and soldier.

Trainee - guy btw 18 and 27 yo who should visit mandatory 1 year training. Trainee has to be healthy, to finish school / high school / college. They are living in the camps in own regions and have intensive trainings, day-time-sleep, small allowance monthly (for canteen: cigarettes, ice cream; for cinema in local town), day off by weekends after first 3 months for to leave camp and visit local town. Parents may visit them by weekends. As alternative trainee may choose not army training but civilian service in hospital, hospice, clinic, house for elders. There are waiting lists in some regions for to became trainee - service in state companies and in any govt position is opened only for guys who finished his trainee year.

Soldier - guy after 21 yo, who finished trainee year and chooses to serve in army by contract. Only soldier may be used in military conflict by order of Ministry of defense.

Russian law forbids to use trainee in any military conflict unless whole state mobilization is declared by parliament.

[cdnmatt]

They are contractors. Them and their families knew risks before to sign contracts. Families will receive insurance compensation.

Do you have any idea of how heartless and void of empathy that makes you sound?

For example, when Canadian soldiers get killed in the line of duty you don't hear Canadians saying, "well tough shit for them, if they didn't want to get killed they shouldn't have signed up". That's just not normal.

[Moses]

Do you have any idea of how heartless and void of empathy that makes you sound?

For example, when Canadian soldiers get killed in the line of duty you don't hear Canadians saying, "well tough shit for them, if they didn't want to get killed they shouldn't have signed up". That's just not normal.

Well. Yearly tens or hundreds of Canadian truck drivers are killed in car accidents. What Canadians says about them? Yearly tens Canadians oil drillers / coil miners / fisherman are killed on their work places, what Canadian says about them?

Every profession has own risks.

[cdnmatt]

Well. Yearly tens or hundreds of Canadian truck drivers are killed in car accidents. What Canadians says about them? Yearly tens Canadians oil drillers / coil miners / fisherman are killed on their work places, what Canadian says about them?

Every profession has own risks.

My bad, and you're totally right. You got me.

A soldier involved in urban combat in a foreign country is exactly the same as someone doing routine maintenance on an oil rig.

[Moses]

My bad, and you're totally right. You got me.

A soldier involved in urban combat in a foreign country is exactly the same as someone doing routine maintenance on an oil rig.

Again: each profession has own risks: to be involved into urban fight, or to be involved in lungs asbestos pollution... does it important for relatives if result is the same? risks are known and accepted before to put signature in contract...

for me personally the most tragic is death or teachers who are killed in schools by guns in hands of drugged kids... because this risk is really unpredictable... but risk of soldier to be killed is the same as risk or police officer on duty - both professions have dangerous risks...

[cdnmatt]

for me personally the most tragic is death or teachers who are killed in schools by guns in hands of drugged kids... because this risk is really unpredictable...

How about this one?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t2ihg8/russian_invaders_killed_civilian_family_and_dogs/

I can't see it, but from the comments, sounds pretty fucked up.

[Moses]

How about this one?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t2ihg8/russian_invaders_killed_civilian_family_and_dogs/

I can't see it, but from the comments, sounds pretty fucked up.

Reddit? Are you serious? Just fake as circulated in Twitter photos from last few days of dropped/burned "Russian" military cars (in fact on photo is Ukrainian truck "Bohdan" with Ukrainian car plate, but who on the West knows about "Bohdan" and how Ukrainian plates look like?)

Matt, hint for you: you may choose also xhamster with video "dad fucks son" and clime what it is deadly Russian tortures poor Ukrainian civilian as a proof... and BDSM videos are suitable for that the most... Pffff... Reddit...

There are so many fake "news" in social medias...

"Kiev bombing" 2 days ago. On the video Ukrainian rocket destroys also Ukrainian SU-27 and it slowly falling in fire on building

"Russian rocket targeted civilian building in Kiev" - photo of the high-rise building with one destroyed apt - it is clear what it was damaged by poor targeted Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile - damage is too small for real Russian rocket - it will destroy whole building.

"Russia bombing Ukrainian island Zmeyiny and kills whole harisson" , and after it president Zelensky made all of them "Heroes of Ukraine" - and yesterday video of captured harisson healthy arriving to Crimea on Russian military ship, all 82 soldiers...

[Moses]

2 days ago in Kiev govt made free distribution of AK-47 and ammunition to civilians, they just drop boxes with guns and ammunition on streets in hopes what it will increase resistance to Russian invasion. Anyone who wants may take it, no need to show passport, no accounting who takes it. They distributed over 20 000 pieces.

At the closest night almost all jewelry shops and supermarkets in capital were robbed, few rich families were robbed and killed, street gang fights were there amplified. As result lot of killed Ukrainian civilians, without Russians soldiers in Kiev.

[StevieWonders]

2 days ago in Kiev govt made free distribution of AK-47 and ammunition to civilians, they just drop boxes with guns and ammunition on streets in hopes what it will increase resistance to Russian invasion. Anyone who wants may take it, no need to show passport, no accounting who takes it. They distributed over 20 000 pieces.

At the closest night almost all jewelry shops and supermarkets in capital were robbed, few rich families were robbed and killed, street gang fights were there amplified. As result lot of killed Ukrainian civilians, without Russians soldiers in Kiev.I was wondering when we would get to today’s talking points

[cdnmatt]

We're they doing the Nazi salute while yelling Heil Hitler, doing meth, and beating the gays at the same time?

[Moses]

Fresh news: Kiev just announced what they will free any prisoner who wants "to protect Ukraine" and give them weapons. This includes all formerly soldiers from nationalist battalions who was jailed for robbing and killing civilians in prev. years. Well right steps. next step will be complains what "Russian robbed and looted all jewelry shops in Kiev".

[Moses]

We're they doing the Nazi salute while yelling Heil Hitler, doing meth, and beating the gays at the same time?

I'm not sure about met, but marching and yelling for sure - I already posted here photos from Lviv and Kiev. Also you can easy find info about fighting with gays.

https://jew-observer.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/S_2.jpg

[cdnmatt]

You do know that Putin and your entire government hates you for being gay, right?

[Moses]

You do know that Putin and your entire government hates you for being gay, right?

Here Russian govt has no anti-gay politic, but also has no support of gays and has no plans to propagate tolerations. Situation here is close to early 90s of XX century in US: homophobia in religious groups and conservatives, but almost all big city has gay clubs, saunas and bars. Gay places aren't attacked by citizens or police, but at the same time they have no special protection.

But at least here is not like in EU member - Poland: no places, towns or cities or whole region what declared themself "gay free zone".

https://balkaninsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Krasnik_lgbtfreezone-e1618313669300-640x359.jpeg

https://www.codastory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/afac6ce3-fd19-4355-ba0c-b7b4c880d1c8_rw_1920.png

[Dodger]

Fresh news: Kiev just announced what they will free any prisoner who wants "to protect Ukraine" and give them weapons. This includes all formerly soldiers from nationalist battalions who was jailed for robbing and killing civilians in prev. years. Well right steps. next step will be complains what "Russian robbed and looted all jewelry shops in Kiev".

All's fair in Love & War as they say.

[cdnmatt]

Oh fuck, I'm not even going to bother taking the time to copy and paste the near unlimited number of links:

https://www.google.com/search?q=russia+lgbt+government+policies

[Dodger]

Here Russian govt has no anti-gay politic,

I don't know a single Russian person (gay or str8) who would agree with your statement.

[Moses]

Oh fuck, I'm not even going to bother taking the time to copy and paste the near unlimited number of links:

https://www.google.com/search?q=russia+lgbt+government+policies

well... do you visit any of them?

We have here "Anti-gay law" how it is called at West. When western mass media talk about it they always skipping one "small detail". Here exists law what LGBT related information can't be distributed within minors below 16 yo - in schools, child clubs, magazines for kids and so on. That is correct information. But in western medias is always called "anti-gay propaganda law".

At the same time there is no discrimination law for adults, but Russia still not recognize gay unions and marriages like many other countries don't recognize it as well including countries within European Union. You can buy here LGBT magazine, visit club, sauna, bar or even visit for actions bushes in famous gay beach Serebryanny Bor (Silver forest) in Moscow (I suggest don't visit this beach, and not because of danger, but I have doubts in quality of water there).

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[cdnmatt]

Ukraine forming new military unit -- International Legion for Territorial Defense of Ukraine, aimed at recruiting any foreigners who want to kill some Russians.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3414438-ukraine-creating-international-territorial-defense-legion-zelensky.html

[Moses]

Ukraine forming new military unit -- International Legion for Territorial Defense of Ukraine, aimed at recruiting any foreigners who want to kill some Russians.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3414438-ukraine-creating-international-territorial-defense-legion-zelensky.html

Well, they already have Nazi battalions, Prisoners battalions, time for Soldiers of Fortune battalions... what next? Hitler Youths battalions for kids? Ukrainian Nazi already have training camps for Ukrainian kids:

On the banner in the training camp for kids of Ukrainian Nazi battalion Azov (Азов) "be a believer in the idea of nation and don't give up, even if the whole world is against you"

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[cdnmatt]

Well, they already have Nazi battalions, Prisoners battalions, time for Soldiers of Fortune battalions... what next? Hitler Youths battalions for kids? Ukrainian Nazi already have training camps for Ukrainian kids:

On the banner in the training camp for kids of Ukrainian Nazi battalion Azov (Азов) "be a believer in the idea of nation and don't give up, even if the whole world is against you"

Careful, you may come off as biased and nationalistic.

Whatever, please don't invade Serbia as well. My video editor lives there, and I like him.

[Moses]

On December 16 2021, the UN General Assembly passed its annual resolution on “Combating Glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”.

Only 2 countries voted against resolution. Guess who? Ukraine... and US.

[Moses]

Whatever, please don't invade Serbia as well. My video editor lives there, and I like him.

Do you remember, what Serbia becomes Serbia after EU+US bombed Yugoslavia and destroyed it? There appears few smaller countries after it, one of which is Serbia.

Russia has no intention to invade to Serbia: Serbia supports Russia in this military operation, it is also declared what they are against sanctions. By the way: after 1999 Russian soldiers are heroes in Serbia - they protected Serbians in 1999.

[Moses]

Russian delegation for peace talk is waiting for Ukrainians in Belorussian city Gomel.

My forecast: Ukrainian delegation will keep talks as long as possible (as they did with implementation of the Minsk protocol 8 years) for to give to Ukrainian army to regroup, then they will decline every offer and peace talk will fails.

[cdnmatt]

Russian delegation for peace talk is waiting for Ukrainians in Belorussian city Gomel.

Yes, and of course just to talk. Or maybe behead, but why get carried away with semantics?

[cdnmatt]

Oh good, now Putin is putting nuclear forces on high alert.

[Moses]

https://youtu.be/a4ipGwiWkJA

Interview of the leader of administration of Henichesk district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henichesk_Raion) in Ukraine. Portrait of Putin on the wall. Flags of Russia, Kharkov province and Henichesk district in the corner.

Subtitles are in Russian. Shortly "We are happy to live without nationalists who terrorized our district for 8 years."

[Andy]

Here Russian govt has no anti-gay politic, but also has no support of gays and has no plans to propagate tolerations. Situation here is close to early 90s of XX century in US: homophobia in religious groups and conservatives, but almost all big city has gay clubs, saunas and bars. Gay places aren't attacked by citizens or police, but at the same time they have no special protection.


As a gay living in Moscow, I would say that it looks more like the Weimar Republic here, rather than the Stonewall times in the USA. Unlike the USA of that time, we are moving in a completely different direction.

[StevieWonders]

As a gay living in Moscow, I would say that it looks more like the Weimar Republic here, rather than the Stonewall times in the USA. Unlike the USA of that time, we are moving in a completely different direction.Like the Weimar Republic? You mean there are clubs in Moscow like that portrayed in the film Cabaret? As I recall that club mocked the society around it. For the English-speaking world “Berlin means boys” as Stephen Spender wrote. Are you suggesting under “Weimar Republic Moscow” that “Moscow means men?” Sex tours to Russia sounds like a business opportunity to me. I think I read somewhere that the English spy Guy Burgess enjoyed exploring the Moscow gay netherworld of public lavatories where casual sex with many other men was available. Would there be a “Guy Burgess” section in such a tour? What is cruising like in Moscow? Much public sex in parks, for example? Is it like Bangkok where there are plenty of soldiers to be had in the parks near the palace? Are there parks near the Kremlin where young soldiers can be had for a few kopecks? That would be perhaps like St James Park in London, traditional meeting place for willing off-duty young guardsmen

I’m thinking of booking my ticket; you make it sound so attractive. I must check that Aeroflot is still flying from Bangkok

[StevieWonders]

Interview of the leader of administration of "]Henichesk district[in Ukraine. Portrait of Putin on the wall. Flags of Russia, Kharkov province and Henichesk district in the corner.

Subtitles are in Russian. Shortly "We are happy to live without nationalists who terrorized our district for 8 years."A true hero of the people, like Quisling?

[StevieWonders]

Russian delegation for peace talk is waiting for Ukrainians in Belorussian city Gomel.

My forecast: Ukrainian delegation will keep talks as long as possible (as they did with implementation of the Minsk protocol 8 years) for to give to Ukrainian army to regroup, then they will decline every offer and peace talk will fails.Outrageous