Re: Long term relationships

mauRICE,
I really liked your comments in your first response to this post and I agree overall with your perspective, although, I have a different opinion regarding the LOVE FACTOR

I don't think LOVE is alien to the Thai culture, just expressed and communicated in a different manner than we're accustomed in the West. The Thai's internalize a lot more of their emotional feelings which sometimes leads to frustration and misguided thoughts in a Thai/farang relationship.

During my early visits to LOS I was always surprised at boy specials response when I presented him with a gift. He rarely, if ever, looked up at me and said "thank you." This always left me a bit bewildered. Sometimes he would set the gift on the side and open it later. That really threw me a curve. I knew he liked the gift. I knew he had to appreciate receiving it, but where were those magic words "Thank You" that I've been so accustomed to hearing? I've now come to understand that he was thanking me, I just wasn't hearing him. I'm not trying to get deeeeeep here, it's just that I didn't understand "The Thai Way," and I think the same holds true in the LOVE arena.

Many of the seasoned working Thai boys know about the farang culture and our sensitivities regarding the "I Love You" statement, and know it well. They've learned (from us) the significance of that one simple statement and use it in many cases as a manipulative tool. All things considered, I guess I prefer having boy special really love me...even if I have to say the words to myself...he loves me...he loves me...he loves me...LOL

I think it was Pete that made a point that we (farangs) must be willing to change the way we think if we expect to have a successful LTR with our Thai boy lover, and I agree with his statement. The more I learn, over time, about the Thai culture, the easier things seem to become. Not always easier to digest...but just easier.

By-the-way, I always end my e-mail messages to Boy Special with "Phom Ruk Koon"...as it's his job to learn more about me as well.

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[mauRICE-old]

It is interesting how the lack of understanding of "Thainess" is often used as an excuse or reason for the failure of a Thai-farang relationship. Second, quite a few seem to think that there's a difference between the way Thais and Westerners define love and honesty.

I believe romantic, passionate love is alive and well in Thailand of 2004. Look beyond Pattaya and Patpong and you will see the big picture. However, Thais, at least the ones that we have acess to, tend to apply a different a standard of love towards farang. I think we are agreed that most farang are not looking for heady, passionate love anyway but something that is more akin to affection and kindness, something to cure the loneliness, not unlike the avuncular affection that a doting nephew showers upon his generous uncle.

My question is: is the farang getting even that after all the effort, time, money and emotion he has invested? From what I've seen, no. The Thai may respond initially but after the familiarity sets in, he takes advantage of the situation, knowing that the farang has become emotionally dependent on him. He wants more money, more this, more that, throws tantrums if he doesn't get what he wants and in some cases, physically abuses the farang. Why doesn't the farang walk away you say? Because the emotions that the farang has for his boy are REAL. He is in LOVE. If he can't feel love, then what is he supposed to feel? Tell me. What I find most pitiable is that some farang feel that they deserve no better after a while. They are trapped.

Now, are the Thai's actions towards the farang acceptable by Thai standards? A big NO. I have contemporaries as well as older Thai friends who have "chooks" (male mistresses) and "kiks" (more polite way of saying "chook", the closest I can think of is lover with some money involved). The "chooks" and "kiks" practically crawl in the presence of their patrons. And they are GORGEOUS. Without wanting to sound uncharitable, they are nothing like the rejects that we get. And they say farang are accorded a high status in Thailand, hah!

How much do you think the Thai patrons give their toyboys? 4 to 5k, max. No gifts, no assistance to the family, no overseas trips. This is is a pittance compared to what the average farang spends on his boyfriend. Moreover, Thai patrons treat their chooks like servants, literally. This is the reality of Thai culture.

Why does the Thai do this? Because he CAN. He is playing on his home turf here. The culture, the language and the laws are built to protect him and to exclude the farang. He KNOWS that the farang has no recourse. Even his fellow farang are against him. When was the last time you saw a Thai side with a farang against another Thai? A farang complains, he is "jai ron", he doesn't give, he is not "jai dee", he is careful with his money, he is "kee neow", blah, blah, blah. They've got a one liner for everything. Sometimes I feel that foreigners are tolerated purely to compensate for the injustices they face from the upper crust; taking the cue from their oppressors, they perceive our generosity as a weakness to be further exploited. Hence, our place of honour at the bottom of the parasitic food chain.

When I talk about the lack of honesty, I'm not referring to an overrated face saving measure to cover a faux pas, which, incidentally, only seems to apply to foreigners. Have you seen the way wealthier Thais tell off their minions? How come no one tells them not to scream and shout because they will lose face as a result?

I'm really lamenting the intentional cheating, lying and duplicity that go on. The scams that are played on farang, sometimes planned years in advance before they are brought to fruition, with the knowledge and tacit support of all those around. The packaging is so good that you don't even realise that you're getting a raw deal. In this regard, I have found little difference between bar boys and those oh-so-coveted university students. At least, with the bar boys you know where you stand. These will be for another post and I can tell ya stories, believe me.

I feel so strongly about this because I think it is wrong to take advantage of an older person who asks for so little and gives so much. Where is the deference for older people that they love to trumpet; where is the respect?

is as addictive as cigarettes, alcohol or any other paradise or poison you can think of.

It's "mature" men discovering the fountain of youth again, right there in the Gulf of Thailand, only to find themselves close to drowning in water that's far too deep and dangerous for an old man to stay afloat.

Broken hearts and broken hips are quite often afflictions which go together when you get old with a young lover.

Come on in, the water's fine.

[mauRICE-old]

The initial post in this thread asked for opinions and experiences as to what makes a Thai-farang relationship work and what doesn't. I believe I have presented my views adequately. I have also responded to further questions with amplications and qualifications. I think on the whole we've had a fair and almost civilised discussion here. How it ultimately became about me personally and my mother's idea of romance I don't know.

What is the point of asking questions when one can't handle answers that don't affirm, what seems to me, a decided and increasingly desperate perspective? Don't waste time then; be the "good heart" farang who rescues 100 broken hearts (there's a movie in there somewhere). As we know, there's a severe shortage of gay farang in Thailand.

Hypocrisy is an interesting word. You'll learn a lot about it in the Land of Smiles.

Indeed, your posts on this subject remind one of the biblical search for 10 good men to save our wicked city from destruction. Well, no one, including Maurice, if I read him right, has suggested that there aren't 10 good thai-farang relationships here, or maybe dozens more, or that yours is not one of them; but the success stories here do tend to be more the exception than rule.

In a world where divorce rates among young attractive hetero couples deeply in love still exceeds 50%, is it so surprising that the mismatch you find in thai-farang couples wouldn't produce a much higher failure rate ? Add to that the fickle element of having two male testosterone levels in a gay pairing, and you have a relationship with a shelf life less than Raisin Bran. Most young thai men who share that view pack a small bag for the weekend and enjoy the ride while it lasts. And most farangs, no matter how deep their protests of love and commitment, quickly develop an appetite for more from the cookie jar.

There's nothing doomy or gloomy or cynical about it. It's just life and hormones, not good intentions, that usually triumph and no one should feel insulted by that.

In every poster who posts here, there are Asians in their own country. Why is it that they are not able to find a LTR with an Asian half their age where they already live? Why must they fly thousands of miles from where they are to find True Love?

Is it because being in public with someone half your age in Thailand is 'tolerated' whereas in your own country people may openly accost you? Is it because it is too expensive to have this type of relationship in your country? Is it because the Asians in your country are a little more savvey as to what type of guy they can attract? Are they still after the older farang or, if they have a job that pays them some money, do they all of a sudden seem to have an attraction for the younger ones?

I remember when I was at Jomtien a couple of years back. There was the most beautiful white guy on the beach that I have ever seen. Possibly from Australia. All the beautiful boys on the beach were throwing themselves at him. He unfortunately was with his own sugar daddy and was off limits. But these boys would have stood in line to be his boyfriend and I'm sure would not have a problem spending money their 'boyfriend' from another country on him.

Another thing I hear here all the time is how open so many are that are in a LTR to so readily accept the fact that they cheat on each other whenever the fancy hits. I have a feeling if you brought your 'boy special' back to your own country, this practice would cease at once on your end. Would you still let 'boy special' fool around with young good looking guys he meets in the bars and you are left alone with nobody showing any interest in you?

Just some questions to ponder.

I've desisted from posting to this thread because this board is concerned with things Thai and what I have to say refers to people from Hong Kong. I think much of what is posted above is generalization based on personal experience. I would be the last person to say that anecdotal evidence has no value but it has to be recognized that it has contexts. Generalizability may be limited to those contexts and be only heuristics. There are always exceptions to heuristics.

I have been in the same relationship now for 24 years. Here in London my partner mixes with a group of Hong Kong Chinese all with partners between 10 and 20 years older than them. Both the Chinese and non-Chinese spend significant amounts of their time in both locales. This group all profess to prefer older partners. Most of the Chinese are educated to at least degree standard and have developed professional careers. None of them were assisted in their careers by their partners. The longest relationship is over 30 years and the shortest more than 10.

I have to say that I don't see the exploitation and abuse that some refer to above. Most of the Chinese are now in their high earning phase and their older partners are living in properties owned by people that previously lived in their apartments. Should we call them rent-codgers?

So what can be generalized. Probably not very much except this. When there was an Asian society that was economically strong it supported a very sound education system with the strong support of the Asian population. Some gay young men who preferred older foreign partners formed long term relationships. They now find themselves in partnerships where they are the economically stronger partner and these relationships are persisting.

A tendency to assert that "all such and such are only after this or that and cannot be trusted" is at least unhelpful and could be viewed as racist stereotyping. One member of the foreign side of this gang is of Norman stock with a title going back to Agincourt. It was he who taught me that "an organization that makes selections and judgments based on anything other than ability harms itself".

[mauRICE-old]

I do acknowledge that a minority of these relationships work but I have become convinced over the years that the odds are not any better in Thailand.

I agree with Thumpurr. The reason why farang think it's cool doing what they do here is not because it is accepted in Thai society but because they are out of the social loop and nobody knows them.

Asian guys who study and travel abroad know that the choice is a lot wider overseas. These days, one can travel to Singapore or Hong Kong to find cute farang guys, if that is one's preference. One of the many attractions of going to Thailand for me personally is the possibility of hooking up with a lonely, culturally awestruck backpacker. American boys are the best. They tend to believe anything you say, provided you package it well. No, that's not really fair. They WANT to believe that the person behind the smiles is genuine. I once met a Californian surfer boy in Narathiwat, of all places (great surfing there, btw). He was gorgeous - what do they feed them in California? It was easy: I did the demure Asian thing, threw a few cultural truisms at him (he lapped it up) and pretended that I did not speak much English. I had him for three days! Then there was the guy from North Carolina, with that stupid-sounding but sexy drawl and good ol' fashioned Christian values (I consider him a personal triumph). These Southern boys are blessed, and I don't mean in the religious sense here.

The problem is not money. The problem, inter alia, is the desperate clinging on to Orientalist notions of Thainess by some farang. In the farang's gaze, the Thai guy is weak, not too smart and deserves to be protected. The perception of the Thai as "victim" is further compunded by the fact that he is usually small built, soft spoken and surrounded by a kind of poverty quite alien to the farang. So when the Thai guy does something that would be construed as dishonest or immature anywhere else, it is rationalised as a cultural misunderstanding or even a necessity because the Thai guy can't possibly be savvy enough to have intentionally done what he did. When once in a long while an Asian comes along and suggests that you call a spade a spade, he becomes the bad guy or worse, is accused of not being Asian enough. Smell the coffee folks, it will soon be 2005.

But I digress. I could change my tune and make a fortune off these lonely farangs. There are well-educated and successful Asian professionals who purposely seek out older farang. Why? To get rich a lot quicker! Why slog when you can have that condo (including one in Sydney - that is so fashionable these days), sports car and six-star vacations before you turn 30. Plus, it's quite easy to have your own toyboy (or several) on the side at the farang's expense and the farang will be none the wiser.

Nah. I'm contented and grateful for what I have. My cup is full.

The destruction of most relationships, gay or straight, happens because of the expectation of sexual monogamy. We arenтАЩt programmed for it. Even these тАШlifetime marriagesтАЩ that we hear trumpeted are rarely fully monogamous. Uncomfortable though it is for us to think about it, even though mum and dad may have been together for ever, even though, maybe, they have had no other physical sexual partner, do you honestly believe that dad only ever thought of mum when he jerked off in the shower, or that mum only thought of dad when she was leaning against the washing machine?

Hetero marriages are held together by a glue other than sex. The children, the mortgage, social pressures, and after the first flush of passion (which lasts, what, a year at most?) sex becomes simply a routine тАУ hopefully a pleasant one, like the first cup of coffee and cigarette in the morning, but a routine none the less. The same with gay relationships тАУ the white hot passion doesnтАЩt last тАУ there has to be something more durable - the love, the deep affection, the warmth, the friendship тАУ yes, that can last, but the gut churning sexual electricity? Get real! (They say that you know the fires of passion are depleted when you both feel comfortable farting loudly in bed!)

When I first used to visit Teerak, five years ago, we were both fired up before we had got into the taxi from the airport. We were half undressed before the hotel room door closed behind us and we stayed in a state of sexual tension for days. Now we meet, go for a coffee together, exchange gossip, maybe go to the cinema before we even think about sex. When it happens it is more an expression of loving affection and oneness than of white hot passion тАУ it is wonderful, in some ways it is the best, but it isnтАЩt the same dynamic as rampant sexuality.

But, I still need that rampancy at times. So Teerak and I agree тАУ when we are together we are totally 100% together, but when we are apart we can, if we want, have a sexual fling. So occasionally if I meet up with a guy who is my sexual fantasy of the day I go for it. Now I live in Thailand I still only see Teerak at weekends, high days, holy days and holidays, so there are often five days of the week when I either sort myself out or go on the razzle. Teerak and I never talk about our other exploits тАУ I donтАЩt even know for sure if he has them тАУ but we agree that we will never use other sexual liaisons against each other or boast of them or even talk about them.

We trust each other, we talk daily by telephone or private internet chat room, we share our ups and downs of the day and we both know that if either of us needs a friend in times of sadness or stress тАШWeтАЩll come runningтАЩ.

To me that is a real relationship, it has a chance to last even when one of us (it will be me, for sure) is too old to be able to find it let alone get it up. I rarely refer to him as тАШmy boyfriendтАЩ because that has connotations of all the silly тАШone week standsтАЩ of my youth. I call him тАШTeerakтАЩ because that Thai word sums up what he is to me. More than an object of sexual desire, more than just another friend, more than I ever imagined or hoped for.

Now the naysayers and gloom mercchants and cynics can chide me for my rose tinted spectacles, my naivity, my lack of cultural awarenes, my impending destruction, but, do you know what my dears? I just don't give a damn!

[Smiles]

Guys, this has been a great thread with lengthy, well-thought-out, and quality posts coming in from all angles of what amounts to a pretty fundamental topic on this Board.

It has been a pleasure to read ... all of it. Thanks to Pete1969 for starting it.