Gay paradise?

[PeterUK]

The term 'gay paradise' is used a lot in relation to Thailand, mainly by sex tourists made giddy with excitement by the plentiful supply of gorgeous young men for cheap sex and by the lack of anything much in the way of overt hostility from the general population. Foreigners who spend a lot of time in Thailand, perhaps having moved there permanently, soon begin to realise that the situation is more complicated for Thai gays. They can face prejudice in the family, at school, and at work. Not only can they not marry their gay lovers but they cannot have a civil partnership either. An interesting article about all this in today's Bangkok Post:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investi ... -tolerance

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[Rene]

Not only can they not marry their gay lovers but they cannot have a civil partnership either.

You have to be totally mad to think that any concept of "paradise" has to do with getting married or enslaved in a "civil partnership". 90% of the people I know who are married, both gay and straight, consider marriage to be a veritable hell. I don't need the state or church to put its stamp of approval on my sexual interests. Being single, free and unencumbered is a state of bliss.

[corky]

I agree 100% with Rene. Well said.

And I would add that 90% of the people I know who are married or in civil partnerships or living together in a gay relationship have been seen by me cheating on their partners. In Babylon, Sansuk or similar places тАж тАШOh please donтАЩt tell my partner that you saw me hereтАЩ. In the bars or discos of Silom тАж тАШOh heтАЩs just a friend but please donтАЩt say anythingтАЩ.

The other great lie of the gay world is тАШWe have an open relationshipтАЩ тАж meaning that you continue fucking around as before but the farang pays the bills and the boy continues to behave as if you donтАЩt. Jealousy and spite always ensues.

Oh тАж and donтАЩt forget the last resort in the rose colored spectacle wearerтАЩs armory тАж тАШMy boyfriend is differentтАЩ

Why canтАЩt people be honest with themselves?

[PeterUK]

I wouldn't want to be in a marriage or civil partnership either. Nevertheless, the fact remains that these things appeal to many gays and are one of the benchmarks by which we judge the degree of gay tolerance of a society.

I think that people being honest with themselves would be a hard pill to swallow and they do not want to face the reality.

[springco]

Nevertheless, the fact remains that these things appeal to many gays and are one of the benchmarks by which we judge the degree of gay tolerance of a society.

PeterUK, the most gay tolerant societies and cultures the world has ever seen had no such institution as "gay marriage". You should learn to speak for yourself instead of making yourself a spokesman and self-appointed expert in these matters.

[timmberty]

the last few posts on here made me think of this >>>>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R79yYo2aOZs

no idea why.

[James Barnes]

I agree with peteruk.

The issues extend far beyond whether or not individuals wish for marriage or civil partnerships.

I wrote this in my Pattaya One column in Nov 2010:

The Worst of Both Worlds


The plethora of gay venues in Pattaya, the thousands of wide-eyed young Thai gay men who flock here from all over the country to find fortune and love, the cityтАЩs popularity with gay tourists and gay expats are all signs of how Thai society tolerates gay people. Pattaya seems to be close to Utopia for gay Thais and foreigners alike. It is disturbing to learn that physical assaults on gay men are not uncommon in Pattaya and verbal abuse of gay people in public places here is rife. This homophobia is mostly unreported, especially by tourists who do not want their holidays further spoiled by involvement with officialdom and expats who may have a jaded view of the local justice. The perpetrators of this frightening aggression are never Thai.

Thai society is less accepting of homosexuality than Europeans are. There are no same sex civil partnerships here. Nor is there any of the equality that legal status confers. Thai gay men still feel that they have to marry and produce children. They often dare not come out of the closet at work- a suicidal career move. Thai families are not generally accepting of gay children. Many bars frequented by gay Thai men will not advertise themselves as being gay establishments because gay professionals would never patronise them, fearful of becoming тАШknownтАЩ. But gays are tolerated here. Thais may be full of prejudices that have largely disappeared in Europe with its politically correct ethics but they do not accept homosexuality. Nor do they punch someone in the mouth because that someone enjoys a love of his own gender.

In contrast, Europe is beginning to see gay couples who have engaged in civil partnerships in the same light as heterosexual married couples. Gay businesses run openly and with pride under the full protection of the law. Equal opportunities legislation also prevents discrimination in the workplace. More and more parents are willing to accept that their children are gay and it is many a long year since a gay elected public official had any novelty value. This is, of course, a generalised view- many eastern European countries retain a bigoted, puritanical and offensive position towards gay people and donтАЩt even attempt to equate Russia with egalitarian thought.

In Thailand, there is tolerance and little acceptance. In Europe there is acceptance but less tolerance. Here we are, approaching the year 2011 and the struggle for gay rights has to continue. Gay people should never accept this worst of both worlds. We are entitled to live in one world, where acceptance and tolerance go hand in hand. A world that provides equality under the law. Where gay men can walk in the streets, hand in hand, without fearing a punch in the mouth.

[Brad the Impala]

PeterUK is being treated most unfairly on this thread. No part of his post was an encouragement or advocation of gay civil partnerships or marriage, but he was directing us to an article that described the situation on gay rights in Thailand.

It's not compulsory anywhere, so those who wish to abstain are completely free to do so, and i hope that they are not suggesting that those who wish to have their relationship recognized by the state should not be entitled to do so.

For myself my civil partnership has been registered and I am happy to know that if, or more likely, when I die first, my partner will not only receive what I leave behind tax free, and without dispute from family or state, but he will also be entitled to state support, in the same way that heterosexual partners have done for decades. Neither of these would apply if we didn't have a civil partnership.

[SimpleSoul]

Corky, you are surely not trying to suggest that ONLY the Thai 'boy' lies? I am certain that this 'gay lying' you describe is non racial. Farang 'men', as you imply' as well as Thai 'boys' can and do lie. I would add to your point that this lying (vis a vis fidelity) is extremely common in the gay world and that a monogamous gay couple is a rarity. Having said that, I would also state that everybody knows this anyway. So, what does it matter?

Such lack of fidelity applies to str8 couples, perhaps to a lesser extent generally, because on the whole women maybe play away form home less often. However, it is well known that in Western and a lot of other societies tremendous numbers of married people have 'affairs' - can be anything from ONS to years of secret trysts and also using prostitutes. Noting how many prostitutes there are in every area of human habitation then it is quite safe to assert that 'fidelity' is rather rare in this world.

Therefore, in my ever simple view of things, this is a red herring aspect of the debate.

In many ways Thailand is a gay paradise; but nowhere is perfect. Living in London is close to a gay paradise, life is very free and easy there. I might even suggest one of the best places to be gay in the world. Yet, even there and even now in 2013, there can be the occasional gay 'hate' crime. It's all a matter of degree. Another aspect not yet mentioned I think is the way in which gays present themselves in a society. If people tend to be non provocative then I suppose others will happily tolerate them. Not advertising gay bars to attract Thai professionals is a good example. it would seem to work and everyone seems to be comfortable; it works alongside the more out there establishments. Not quite an ideal paradise situation but I would say perhaps good enough.

I never understood the need to push the word gay 'marriage' down the throats of the Brits when civil union already existed. Why upset str8s needlessly? I am not aware of anyone (gay) I know who has vented on the need to be allowed to marry.. this is such a narrow measure of civil society - though of course I accept to some it might be more important.