US gun nutters aren't the most mentally stable group. People flying hobby drones have had them shot down by some paranoid gun nutters.Originally Posted by cdnmatt
US gun nutters aren't the most mentally stable group. People flying hobby drones have had them shot down by some paranoid gun nutters.
Last edited by Surfcrest; June 26th, 2016 at 07:53.
Life is sexually transmitted and terminal.
By the time of the November election it will probably be obvious that Britain will be in or headed for a recession. Clinton only needs to point that out as an example of what Trump would do to the economy. She is already making the case that he would be a disaster for the US economy.
Life is sexually transmitted and terminal.
1. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that an independent Scotland and what's left of the UK would be anything other than good neighbours and trading partners. The reason that Scottish goods are bought in the UK is not out of patriotism - its because they're high quality and at the right price. In an independence situation Scottland would be exercising self-determination - not starting a war, so there's no reason to fall out.
2. It is not a requirement to adopt the Euro to join the EU - a new member merely has to make an open-ended committment to it. Apart from that, you cannot join the Euro unless you meet the criteria - and Scotland currently does not. This issue is at best a red herring and at worst a lie.
3. Is a post-brexit physical border being proposed betwen N. Ireland and the Republic? If not, why would one be required between Scotland and England - and if it IS being seriously proposed then why should anybody fear a border. Do you fret and worry about crossing the Thai border when you visit? As long as the appropriate arrangements are made then what's the problem
4. The UK Govt's "permission" is not required for the Scottish Govt to hold a consultative referendum. The UK constitution is reserved to Westminister but the referendum question can be worded in such a way that it avoids falling foul of that. For example "Do you agree that the Scottish Government should open negotiations with the UK Govt with a view to Scotland becoming an Independent country". This wording does not impinge on the constitution. The Edinburgh Agreement was entered into last time as it suited both parties and put the issue beyond any legal challenge
5. It seems that Scotland and N. Ireland may in fact have a veto over Brexit (see below). The legal situation is certainly ambiguous and could tie the issue up in the Courts for months. Sturgeon's price of not pursuing the ambiguity could be UK agreement to Indyref 2 as in 2014.
indyref.jpg
1. Even if Westminster gave permission for a second referendum for next year and Scotland voted for independence, uncoupling will take years, so Scotland would therefore be applying to join the EU. Sturgeon won't even get a hearing from the EU until the UK has left, it would mean that regions like Catalonia would similarly have to be listened to, which Spain would never tolerate. If Scotland is part of the EU, trade with the UK will depend on whatever EU trade agreement the UK has forged. It could be subject to tariffs, for example.
2. If Scotland leaves the UK, they can't use the pound, which means forging their own currency, or joining the Euro.
3. Yes, the reimposition of a physical border is being proposed in Northern Ireland. Scotland would have to accept free movement of people if they join the EU which would mean a border would be a necessity, simply to stop people walking from an EU country into a Non-EU country.
4. If you don't have Westminster's permission they'll ignore it. They can even technically ignore the referendum they've just held. I think you're confused that the Government has to act on the result of a referendum. It doesn't.
5. Scotland could technically withhold consent, again it would just be ignored.
I don't have any axe to grind. I just don't believe when all these issues are aired, and given that 38% of Scots already wanted to leave the EU, that it's unlikely that a second independence referendum would succeed. I very much doubt Sturgeon will call for one unless she is absolutely certain she could win. If independence failed for a second time, she'd be finished.
Last edited by Tobi; June 26th, 2016 at 01:42.
Surfcrest (June 27th, 2016)
Ha don't worry I think you can safely assume that we WERE all joking and that we're fully aware of that / get that already :-)
13509127_1192316657474901_488956870963763485_n.jpg
that's not Photoshop
Sorry but you're wrong - it totally was photoshopped it seems.....be careful what you read and believe on the internet !
http://www.snopes.com/british-refugees-welcome-sign/
Tobi
1. Why would Independence and EU accession negotiations take any longer than the UK Brexit negotiatons which today have been extended from 2 years to more like 4 years according to LEAVE representatives on TV? Kindly bear in mind that unlike any other accession country, Scotland's legal and others systems are already fully compliant with EU regulations so there is no "lead" time. We shall see whether Sturgeon "gets a hearing" or not - she says contact has already been established, but it will be low level "off the record" contact at this stage. The UK will not impose tariffs on EU goods as the EU would retaliate and that would simply see a mass exodus of EU employers moving their operations out of the UK.
2. The pound is an internationally tradeable currency - no country can be prevented from using it. Venezuela could use it tomorrow if she so decided. See this from former Head of Bank of England a couple of months ago:
http://stv.tv/news/politics/1346145-...er-bank-chief/
3. A physical border is not being officially proposed in Northern Ireland - the issue has been raised that's all. A way will be found round the issue. In any case - bring it on.
4. I'm not in the least confused - all referenda in the UK is non-binding. If the result was YES and the UK ignored it then steps would have to be taken.
5. The report I quoted was from the House of Lords - the UK Govt can't "just ignore" the view of its own supreme legal authority.
Not disputing that - that's why she is not proposing Indyref2 at this time, but is saying it is "on the table". It will not happen unless there is sustained evidence that it commands majority support - this very point is in her manifesto
I'm a Unionist in the Uk but even I concede the Scots ( who voted for independence) would be mad NOT not have another dig at it. The Unionist side of my brain would say that "hey, like it or lump as members of the "UK" ( which we're all a part of) we al voted for this ( albeit regionally it seems) so we'll just have to try and make the best of it".
But I can totally understand others, especially those with independence in mind saying "fuck that, we didn't vote for this so we're making a break for it come what may" - as that also suits their main aim too of course - and therein lies my whole problem with this vote, it was NEVER really one Country voting together in tandem ( as the UK IS four separate nations of course ) but was more a case of that in throwing them all together in this way it's flagged up those very real regional differences that have always existed here and has opened up a can of worms that quite simply didn't need to be opened as the UK seems to have managed quite well up to now ( SG I know you'll disagree with me on THAT but hopefully you get my point there as I do yours in general in this case.)
Last edited by Nirish guy; June 26th, 2016 at 02:47.
Surfcrest (June 27th, 2016)
1. Sure, if the UK's actual exit does takes four years, but I honestly don't think it will, the trigger looks likely to be pulled in October-November. You're also assuming that Westminster would give a damn about rushing Scotland's second referendum to beat the UK's exit from the EU. I wouldn't rely on that if I were you. Sturgeon can talk-and-talk-and-talk, but she will get nothing concrete from the EU that she can use. The EU will insist that Scotland has to wait until the UK has left, gain independence, then apply to join the EU, with all that entails. I wasn't talking about the UK imposing tariffs on Scotland, but the EU ending up by imposing tariffs on the UK, which means the UK will retaliate back, and that will then include Scotland if they eventually become part of the EU. That will be a huge problem given Scotland's dependence on trade with the rest of the UK, and the risk of this a difficult sell to the Scottish people.
2. Of course, anyone can simply use any currency, plenty of countries do with the US$ for example. However, you've automatically surrendered control of your finances, ie. if the UK decided to introduce massive quantitive easing for example, Scotland couldn't do a thing about it, even if was going to bankrupt them. It's also something of an unknown as to whether the EU would even consider a country for membership that didn't have control of its own currency and finances.
3. Yup, I agree, I also doubt many Brits really give a shit about Scottish independence, but a border would have a much bigger impact on Scottish finances than it would on ours. Again, Sturgeon would have to convince the Scottish population that all of this is a price worth paying.
4. What steps? If the UK Govt. just says "thanks for your input, but we're not going to exit the EU", nothing would happen. I doubt UKIP could gain enough seats at the next general election to make it a manifesto pledge, not that those mean much these days.
5. The UK Govt doesn't even have to ignore it, they'll simply pass a new law.
I think independence for Scotland would be incredibly interesting, if not downright hilarious, especially if it all goes pear-shaped, ie. Scotland joins and then the EU collapses. Germany, France, The Netherlands and Sweden quit, leaving Scotland trying to prop up Greece. Hey, I always enjoy a little epicaricacy! However, I honestly believe that even if there is another Scottish independence referendum on the basis of BREXIT within the next few years, I think it will be rejected again by the majority of Scottish people. If that happens, as we agree, Sturgeon is finished, and then it's likely that it wouldn't get raised again for at least another generation.
Last edited by Tobi; June 26th, 2016 at 03:12.
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