Pity can be a wonderful thing, the problem is finding someone who has enough heart to have it.
Wes
Pity can be a wonderful thing, the problem is finding someone who has enough heart to have it.
Wes
All the Best!
Wes
Okay, Wesley, IтАЩll bite. This is not intended as America-bashing but as a reasoned response to your posting.Originally Posted by Wesley
1. In my opinion, I think that you should distinguish between тАЬAmerican-bashingтАЭ and тАЬAmerica-bashing.тАЭ This may seem casuistical, but many of us (myself included) who post on this Board have American friends with whom we disagree about the policies and practices of the US Administration.
2. It IS sad that the Burmese distrust the US armed forces, particularly the Navy, so much that they wonтАЩt allow US ship to land aid, but the Burmese government is a military one whose members have been subjected to severe unilateral sanctions by the US administration. The Burmese junta is composed of uneducated, superstitious peasants who have clawed their way to the top. In those circumstances, why should they risk have US armed personnel land in their country?
3. In my opinion, again, I think that the seven years of Bush Jr. are not the cause of anti-US feeling, merely the culmination of years of frustration with US government policies of interference in the affairs of other nations. The present situation in Iraq, coupled with the ongoing one in Afghanistan, has simply brought matters to a head. You asked: What is the old saying about power and corruption... Well it makes me wonder if anyone would have done any better in the same situation; given the same circumstances and options.тАЭ The quotation, from Lord Acton, is тАЬPower tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.тАЭ While this observation implies that a personтАЩs sense of morality lessens as his or her power increases, it obviously applies to nations as well.
4. In another thread, on the Russians, catawampuscat refers to the book тАЬThe Ugly AmericanтАЭ by William Lederer and Eugene Burdick. Although the book was published 50 years ago, such behavior is still continuing (e.g., US athletes' behavior at sporting events such as 2000 Sydney Olympics). I don't know of any other nation which has such an epithet applied to it - and maybe you should wonder why.
5. You suggest that тАЬmaybe America should turn back in on its self and let the world go on and on with a non-interference policy.тАЭ I think that the US has not had a non-interference policy throughout most of its history тАУ first it interfered in MexicoтАЩs internal affairs, and then in the affairs of other nations in the western Hemisphere (under the guise of the Monroe Doctrine). From the end of WWI the US has largely pursed what might be termed the Wilsonian Doctrine - which states, crudely, that since the world was no longer safe for the American democracy, the American people are called upon to to make the world safe for the American democracy. In order to do this, the principles of the American democracy have to be made universal throughout the world тАУ whether the rest of the world likes it or not.
6. The US canтАЩt turn its back on the world without major changes in its lifestyle тАУ it is too reliant on imported oil not only for gasoline but for all the petrochemical derivatives.
7. You say, тАЬWe should have stayed out of the second world war with all the thanks you get for it now.тАЭ A familiar refrain from US citizens but you might want to read some modern history books, such as Robert B StinnettтАЩs "Day of Deceit" (The Free Press, New York, 1999, $26). Stinnett is a retired US Navy veteran. This book (and others) show how the US provoked JapanтАЩs attack on Pearl Harbor with, amongst other actions, deliberate flouting of international law including the dispatch of US naval task groups into Japanese waters on three occasions. The US can be seen as being as culpable for the war in the Pacific as the Japanese, because it was pursuing its own interests.
8. You said, тАЬGive it a few years maybe your kids are going to be speaking Arabic. I assure you America will still be speaking English,or some form of Spanglish.тАЭ Again, a familiar refrain that is racist at its root.
As I said, at the beginning of this post, this is not intended as a US-bashing post but as a response to your challenge.
Your post was and is so well thought out it would press me to go back to grade school to pick up all the doctrines and post-scripts to such great people. It astounds me as to how to reply with out having to actually get serious about the question. As you could see in my first response it was not meant to be taken serious. Now that the question has been taken serious I am not sure I am the American to post a relevant post to such a wide range of quotes and historical admonishments. I guess, I ask for a response and I got one, the one question that was not answered was my main question, put in our situation what would your leaders have done in the same position with the same power and ability to inflict ones will on a people after the 9-11 attack. My real question is what you would do or how would other world powers react if they could have the same ability to react as we do. As I have said, I absolutely admit we are not perfect so it seems you have it all figured out. If as it does look like we plan in the next decade to finally wean ourselves off oil and go green? If the message of Change from Obamma really does take hold and things do change inwardly, not only would our economy go bust but as well as many others behind us like a row of dominoes. It would not be a western depression but a world depression should we by some reason default on all our loans.
So, my question is not to argue about the past, I fully admit we have had 7 years and you have so eloquently pointed out a couple of hundred years of pushing people around and I cannot say you are wrong, history speaks for its self. You forgot the poor native Indians that we took away to reservations and starved while we flourished off their land. So, my question is, since we cannot change the past; it is already written, then What would you or your government do to fix it if we just pull back or at the very least stop interfering in the political stage. So, just what do you want us to do, what would you do and would your government have done any better than we have. We cannot get in the some wonderful time machine and go back to fix our mistakes. So, where to from here... It seems so many can find so much wrong but no one has any answers to the real questions of change. May I propose that you do this, or should I wait for another?
Btw as I had noticed before your name or handle on this board is meant to suck some sucker in, and then you nail him. My dear Mr. Booze, you are a misnomer.
Wesley
All the Best!
Wes
Oh dear, "Curious" is convinced I am "homintern," and now you seem convinced I am "LunchtimeO'Booze." I can assure you that I am neither of those posters.
I must admit that is a lot cheaper, So why is bin Ladiin still about . I assume after all the bombings in Europe you guy es have as much reason to get him as any one.
Cottonman, sorry about your name, I mixed it up with another post where I simply followed the line to the wrong person. It was not intentional it was late here. I was almost asleep, then I got a phone call late and I am still up. I think solving the problem is much more important than pointing the finger. That is what I am getting at. Its not that your intelligence does not show though. Its just that is not what the world needs is another history lesson it needs a leader that operates in an appropriate way. I don't deny the mistakes from way back but in the election here I see a lot of finger pointing but no one has real solutions and people hit on us guys in the USA and point the finger but I never see any solutions to the problems. Not that we would listen but it would be good if some one gave us some real advice. Obamma says he will find Bin Ladin and kill him.
I only resent the assertion I am racist when I have spent most of my life working and helping people of other colors and as best I can remember of every color. My Compassion is blind. I was making a statement that with out someone taking some action there will be one world religion and one language and it very well may be Arabic. My snip about Spanglish was an attempt at some humor. Call me what you like but not a racist. I have made the same statement about WW2 and everyone speaking German. I am simply making a point, unless someone stands up to them we will be assimilated.
Wesley
All the Best!
Wes
You had no choice in the matter, Wesley. You were attacked by Japan. And then Germany declared war on you (not the other way around).
"The fruits of peace and tranquility... are the greatest goods... while those of its opposite, strife, are unbearable evils. Hence we ought to wish for peace, to seek it if we do not already have it, to conserve it once it is attained, and to repel with all our strength the strife which is opposed to it. To this end individual[s]... and in even greater degree groups and communities are obliged to help one another... from the bond or law of human society." [Marsilio dei Mainardini (c.1275-1342), Defensor Pacis]
From my perspective, it is now difficult to sat what the right way would have been because the US and its close allies - Howard and Blair - pre-empted any other response and closed off all other options. On Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden was the US's creation as CIA asset 'Tim Osman.' You (i.e., the US) trained him and used him as its proxy in Afghanistan. The response to the attacks on 9/11 - to declare war on Afghanistan because it was sheltering him while ignoring the fact that most of the 19 hijackers were Saudis (of course Saudi Arabia has oil and Afghanistan does not) is simply incomprehensible. Similarly, the attack on Iraq was unprovoked and based on lies, lies and more lies, so much so that the US administration has shift ground frequently on why it found it necessary to invade. Saddam Hussein was no threat to anyone (except the Iraqi people) and kept the lid on Sunni-Shia rivalry.
I didn't say you were racist - I said the refrain was racist at its root.
But the reverse is also true - the rest of the world doesn't want to be assimilated into the US lifestyle. Modernization, yes. Americanization, no.
Well said and the vast majority of non-Americans would wholeheartedly agree.
The trouble is that a large number of Americans are so up themselves with unjustified but inflated self-worth and arrogance that the opinion of the rest of the world is ignored or it completely passes them by as they sit in their ivory tower. The average American just doesn't realise how detested their country and much of it's ethos really is and when they do realise it they start bleating like Wesley about unfair characterization.
Perhaps, Snowcat, but you have to only look as far as Eurovision to see which nationality holds no.2 position of nationalities viewed in that light. Even radioactive poisoning Russians seem more popular.
I have lived the last 11 years in other countries that certainly were and are not Pro American. It has never been some stroke of enlightenment that fell on my head while reading the post that people hate us. There are a few Ivory towers other than the US and there has been for centuries. I hate to be equated with some poor goat that all of a sudden realizes he is in front of a truck and has no time to get out of the way. I am fully aware and have been fully aware of how people feel about us. Its just that like the pedo problem how much and how often does it have to be repeated before you have simply overstated your point. At first I didn't care what people thought and mostly still feel that way. I have personally killed no one nor have I set any foreign policy. So I go about my own way doing what I do. So, when is enough, enough, how many times do you have to say it before its one time to many. I personally feel we need to with draw all American aide and the billions paid out to the rest of the world and come home. We have enough problems at home to keep us busy with out taking care of the world. In such situations as we find our self in now we used simply American ingenuity to think our-self out of seemingly impossible situations. So, its not enough to invade Iraq now we are on Mars. So, I guess I can sit back in my Ivory tower and enjoy life from afar. maybe all Americans should discover America again and stay here to spend money , stop all trade. We made it though one depression with any luck we will make it though this one in tack. I am sure the world will get along fine without us. Seems Putin has plans to enlarge the boarders again. maybe we should just let him go. You guys out of all of this have offered no real solutions to the world problems because you like us have no idea how to fix things. So, we come home the middle east falls to Iran Russia marches into the EU, the Baltics and Central Asia is eaten up again and China collapses when we default on all our loans. So. we can sit in our Ivory towers and watch the original depots run things again. We are young compared to you guys. with any luck we will stop just short of the middle ages again. The exception this time its not the church that is corrupt its Islam that has gone beyond what it was originally intended to do. If you think the crusades were bloody watch what will come. I guess Its time you had your turn at it again and see if you can talk yourself out of the end result of our protectionist policies when Obama is in office. I am sure the world will look great in the new Muslim clothes. Maybe there will be some nuclear baby. LOL
Wes
Wesley
All the Best!
Wes
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