What is a Ladyboy...Really?

[dave_tf-old]

I remember when I was young hearing a father say about his son: He still thinks girls are just soft boys. He meant that his son was not yet old enough to be interested in girls 'that way', but that statement has always stayed with me. In terms of instant visual attraction, that pretty much describes what 'works' for me...soft boys. Add a little wiggle-room butch/nellie for a more slowly developing attraction. There's already plenty of wiggle room just within the 'soft boys' description.

Dodger has described a continuum related to gender identity and 'manner' all lumped under a few English and Thai terms. Considering the wide range that humans exhibit in combining 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits, that seems more efficient, although still lacking. By defining homosexuality and heterosexuality differently as well (as a physical act rather than anything related to gender identity or mannerisms) that also makes sense.

If there weren't extreme examples of 'masculinity' and 'femininity' (beyond the biological presence or absence of a penis) the concepts either wouldn't exist or would have different meaning. Everybody knows some straight person (male or female) who exhibits at least some personality traits of the gender they are not. I offer 'straight' examples so as not to confuse sexual attraction and sex with gender traits and mannerisms...they are simply not as varied as 'gay' people are.

In seperating gender traits from both physcial gender and physical sexual behavior, the Thai folk-mindset seems a good way to do it.

It is more 'gay' in the western sense of the word for a man to be attracted to lady-boys because of the way we tend to define gender biologically, and include mannerisms as being part of sexual identity...sissy=gay (rightly or wrongly). If Dodger's observations are correct, it isn't as 'gay' for a Thai man to be attracted to Lady-Boys.

None of this takes into account sexual and gender politics which have arisen in the last 40 years to replace common sense and individuality. I think where the Thai have it wrong is that there are more than 3 'sexes' and many more than 3 sexualities. It's the stuff for 1000 PhD dissertations (beyond my ability), but so far this thread has been a good primer for street-level understanding.

...very few researchers (if any) can draw upon the actual experience of having a relationship with one....

Ugh, been there, done that. The "boyfriend" before the current one was a full blown ladyboy - long hair, boobs and all. What a fcuking nightmare! Hormones mixed with xtasy and yabba. I got taken big time, mainly because her cock was bigger than my brain.

I don't have a lot to add to the comments already made except for one observation. It seems on other boards and websites devoted to "ladyboy lovers" the posters almost all vehemently deny they are "gay". I don't quite grasp where they are coming from. And here I'll bet many posters have the idea that if one likes ladyboys they can't possibly be gay!

The hell with labels.
Mai pben rai.

[dave_tf-old]

It seems on other boards and websites devoted to "ladyboy lovers" the posters almost all vehemently deny they are "gay". I don't quite grasp where they are coming from. And here I'll bet many posters have the idea that if one likes ladyboys they can't possibly be gay!

The hell with labels.
Mai pben rai.

Really? So the opinion I slaved so many seconds to form is incorrect? Or are they Thai?

Shut up, Dawit.

.....

Really? So the opinion I slaved so many seconds to form is incorrect? Or are they Thai?

Shut up, Dawit.

(edited the next day in a state of sobriety)

The "ladyboy" websites I've visited cater to westerners who apparently largely consider themselves "straight". Mind you. these websites don't have many "fem-boys" on them but mostly big boobed ladyboys and some post-op.

[krobbie]

...very few researchers (if any) can draw upon the actual experience of having a relationship with one....

Ugh, been there, done that. The "boyfriend" before the current one was a full blown ladyboy - long hair, boobs and all. What a fcuking nightmare! Hormones mixed with xtasy and yabba. I got taken big time, mainly because her cock was bigger than my brain.

The hell with labels.
Mai pben rai.

Oh Ken ... sorry but I'm still laughing at this paragraph. The cock versus brain thing is totally understandable to me. Whether ladyboy or gay ... I couldn't even think of being with someone who doesn't have the equipment that turns me on.

There is actually a bizarre story I have from yet more personal experience and if this thread goes until tomorrow, I may just tell you.

Cheers and goodnight from "down under"

Why Kathoeys (or Ladyboys)?

In this post, the terms Ladyboy and Kathoey have the same meaning as these terms are used in Thai society interchangeably. The term Kathoey ......


....... most seem very content with having both penises and breast , as long as they are viewed as women, have heterosexual relationships with men

A couple of minor points (and I am not referrin to nipple size ...)

1. There are actually two meanings in Thai for Kathoey, depending on the pronunciation. An "oy" pronunciation refers to what is euphemistically referred to as a lady boy or transvestite, who will inevitably use the term "kha"; an "er-y"pronunciation refers to an effeminate male, who will usually use the term "khrap".

2. Without going into lurid detail, surely it is physically impossible for two men (both equipped below the waist as nature intended) to have any sort of physical heterosexual relationship??

[Dodger]

GoneFishing,

Quote

2. Without going into lurid detail, surely it is physically impossible for two men (both equipped below the waist as nature intended) to have any sort of physical heterosexual relationship??

In the mind of a Ladyboy, having sex with a heterosexual male is considered heterosexual sex, regardless of the fact that they themselves have a penis.

I guess my question would be: If a Labyboy lives, thinks breaths, and has the same sexual inclinations as a woman, then should the Ladyboy be categorized as being Gay???

GoneFishing,

Quote

2. Without going into lurid detail, surely it is physically impossible for two men (both equipped below the waist as nature intended) to have any sort of physical heterosexual relationship??

In the mind of a Ladyboy, having sex with a heterosexual male is considered heterosexual sex, regardless of the fact that they themselves have a penis.

I guess my question would be: If a Labyboy lives, thinks breaths, and has the same sexual inclinations as a woman, then should the Ladyboy be categorized as being Gay???

It seems diificult to explain this because in doing so we use our own "cutural vocabulary". I know what I mean but how do I say this? We think in terms of homosexual and hetersexual. We have come to think of a term ladyboy, but what is the term used for a man that likes sex with a ladyboy? Those friends of mine that are ladyboys have "husbands" some homosexual, some heterolsexual. So maybe there is no distinction. Maybe it is just sex. What do 2 "gay" guys that have anal sex (one top, one bottom) consider it. What does 1 straight guy and 1 gay guy consider anal sex when done together (like when we off a straight man at a bar)? Does the gay guy think he is having gay sex and the straight guy think he is having heteolsexual sex?

It is hard for me to discuss this with my boy's ladyboy friend since I do not speak much Thai. They think "I think too much". I am content to just accept the fact.

I do not understand ladyboy sex nor gay sex nor any other sex. Nor do I question it anymore.

.....
I guess my question would be: If a Labyboy lives, thinks breaths, and has the same sexual inclinations as a woman, then should the Ladyboy be categorized as being Gay???

Congradulations Dodger! You just touched the 3rd rail of Gay Politics in America right now!

The House just passed an "Employment Non-Discrimination Act", which would protect gay people against workplace discrimination. However, as part of the deal to get it passed they had to strip out the provision for "gender identity" which would have protected "transgender" people. There is a firestorm of a debate right now about "incrementalism" with people like Rep. Barney Frank and the Human Rights Watch lobbyists saying "we'll get what we can now and come back for the rest of you later" and many other activists decrying the "sellout" of one group to benefit another.
And of course we are getting all tripped up by labels. I've seen many a letter-to-the-editor questioning weather transgender people should really be classified as "gay".
There is another storm in the Leather community as to wether FTM (female-to-male) folks should be allowed to compete as "men" in Leather contests. And other stories of Lesbian groups refusing to allow MTF (male-to-female) to join in their groups.

Its kind of sad when you consider Stonewall was a "Tranny Bar" and it was the Gals there that started our Gay Revolt.

What does 1 straight guy and 1 gay guy consider anal sex when done together (like when we off a straight man at a bar)? Does the gay guy think he is having gay sex and the straight guy think he is having heteolsexual sex?

Now that one's simple for both:

The gay customer thinks he is having gay sex, and paying for it, while the straight bar boy simply thinks he is doing a job for which he is paid. End of story.