The Brink of War?

[Moses]

Cluster bombs are banned under an international treaty (the 2010 Convention on Cluster Munitions) that prohibits the use, transfer, production and stockpiling of the weapons. The treaty cites the failure of many submunitions to explode on impact, leaving dangerous ordnance in fields and urban areas that could kill or maim people. Russia and Ukraine are among the countries who are not signatories to the treaty. But an attack of any kind that indiscriminately attacks civilians would probably be a war crime if their use was neither a military necessity nor proportional to the threat they are facing, and so against the Geneva Conventions. Moreover, based on the Geneva Conventions standard of command responsibility, the commanding General as well as anyone else in his chain of command is culpable.

Dragonman you wrote om May 2022 https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showt...l=1#post290571

Do you want to comment decision of Biden to supply Ukraine with cluster munition?

Yesterday Ilon Musk:

America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs, but now we send them to be used?

No good will come of this. Fate loves irony, but hates hypocrisy.

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) July 15, 2023

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1680094064442740737

[Dragonman]

Dragonman you wrote om May 2022 https://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showt...l=1#post290571

Do you want to comment decision of Biden to supply Ukraine with cluster munition?

Yesterday Ilon Musk: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1680094064442740737

My earlier posting noted that neither Ukraine nor the Russian Federation are signatories to the treaty outlawing the use of cluster bombs. As it happens, the US has also never signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions. Moreover, Poland and Romania (two NATO members through which such munitions would likely have to transit in order to reach Ukraine) have also never signed the treaty. Therefore, no one likely to be involved in the supply, transit or future use of these weapons is bound by any specific legal prohibition against their use.

My earlier comments about the situation if these weapons, however, are used indiscriminately against civilians, rather than being used against military personnel, being indictable offenses against the Geneva Convention still apply, however.

I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report stating that "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," because I can't find such a statement. Moreover, I believe he, himself, has been accused on hypocrisy on several occasions, so his comments carry little ethical weight.

Given the number of alleged war crimes committed by the Russian Federation, its armed forces, and its government in its actions in Ukraine, Musk's comments about "Fate loves irony, but hates hypocrisy" could also apply to complaints about possible war crimes by others.

A country that illegally invades and then annexes territory of a neighbor is hardly in a legal or ethical position to complain about the behavior of other countries.

[Dragonman]

===Syria. Russia===

Falklands UK .

The Falkland Islands (also known as Malvinas) has been on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories since 1946, following the transmission by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland of information under Article 73 e of the Charter of the United Nations. Argentina does not recognise this situation but at the moment it remains the legal situation. As the Falkland Islands are legally a British overseas territory, it is impossible for the UK government to have invaded them.

[Moses]

===I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report stating that "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," because I can't find such a statement===

Psaki on White House press briefing

[Dragonman]

===I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report I would be interested if Elon Musk could actually point to a published report stating that "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," because I can't find such a statement===


Psaki on White House press briefing

I am not sure of an off-the-cuff comment at a Press Briefing fits the description of "America has always condemned as evil those who use cluster bombs," but the transcript of the relevant section of this press briefing from February 28, 2022, reads:

Q. Thanks, Jen. There are reports of illegal cluster bombs and vacuum bombs being used by the Russians. If that’s true, what is the next step of this administration? And is there a red line for how much violence will be tolerated against civilians in this manner that’s illegal and potentially a war crime?

MS. PSAKI: It is — it would be. I don’t have any confirmation of that. We have seen the reports. If that were true, it would potentially be a war crime. Obviously, there are a range of international fora that would assess that. So, certainly, we would look to that to be a part of that conversation." (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...ruary-28-2022/).

Note that the question is not about cluster bombs specifically but about vacuum and cluster bombs, so it is difficult to say with certainty what Psaki's response means in terms of international fora that would assess the matter.

Given my earlier comments about the countries concerned not being signatories to the Convention, both the question and the answer illustrate a lack of knowledge of the legalities involved, as a reading of Article 1 of the Convention on Cluster Munitions shows:

"1. Each State Party undertakes never under any circumstances to:
(a) Use cluster munitions;
(b) Develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer to anyone, directly or indirectly, cluster munitions;
(c) Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a State Party under this Convention."

The key words here are "Each State Party." As neither the USA, Ukraine nor Russia, nor Poland and Romania, is a State Party to the Convention, they are not bound by its terms as non-signatory countries.

Moreover, there is no clear regulation on cluster munitions in the law of armed conflict, so the international community does not have a consensus, although there is a view that the use of such weapons against military targets is a method of combat that conforms to the law of armed conflict, also known as International Humanitarian Law.

[cdnmatt]

Russia has already littered Ukraine with cluster boms anyway, so Ukraine using them for well targetted attacks against military targets isn't going to make much of a difference on the ground.

[Dodger]

I'm against war in general and have always viewed war (all wars) as a total systemic breakdown in humanity - but, like so many other people, I realize that, unfortunately, we live on a warring planet and can only hope and pray for "World Peace" one day which frankly seems like a delusional pipe-dream.

That said, the use of cluster munitions in an attempt to rid a country from invaders who are intent on killing its people doesn't seem that far-fetched, as long as precautions are taken to quarantine the area(s) where clusters have been dropped to minimize collateral damage until after the war is over - when the unexploded cluster bomblets can be detected and removed safely.

This is the step that has been missing in history whenever a countries military uses these things. They drop them all over the place and never go back to pick them up when the fighting is over. Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos are perfect examples of this where thousands of unexploded munitions' were left scattered all over the countryside by the Americans which to-this-day are still injuring and sometimes killing innocent civilians.

It's obvious that Ukraine plans to drop cluster bombs on the front lines in the eastern regions currently under Russia's control to dislodge them - thus allowing their counter offensive (counter defensive) to make more measurable advances. Maybe the end-result of this war is to have a large swath of real-estate on Ukraine's eastern border designated as "no-mans-land" due to the danger presented by unexploded munitions. I seriously doubt that any cluster bombs will be dropped in or near Crimea.

Of course this is just a wild guess on my part - but this is similar to how Putin used cluster bombs when he invaded Georgia and we never heard any complaints from him..

[arsenal]

Watched 1917 (mesmerising) and War Horse (stunning) recently.

This war is like WW1 in miniature. The Russians are obviously never going to be able to take Ukraine and Ukraine has little chance of bresling thtough the Russian lines. All that remains is for Putin and Zelensky to accept that and they can reach a settlement.

[cdnmatt]

I'm against war in general and have always viewed war (all wars) as a total systemic breakdown in humanity - but, like so many other people, I realize that, unfortunately, we live on a warring planet and can only hope and pray for "World Peace" one day

No worries, good chance this is all just an illusion anyway. Go Google / Youtube Fermi'wa paradox, which states there's three options:

1) We're the only intellegent life form around, and our technology will eventually increase to the point where we're capable of creating life like simuated universes as real as what we're living in today. Think of it as an upgraded version of the sims. If and when we get this technology, of couse we're going to spawn thousands of simulated universes each with their own set of variables, just to test and see how things go, so we can make better decisions for us going forward.

2.) We will go distinct before reaching the technology in #1.

3.) We've already reached the technology in #1, and are currently living in a simulated universe.

Like it or not, #3 is the most probable.

[latintopxxx]

...stop fretting...once Trump wins the upcomiong election he will tell Putin to stop and it will all be over...