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Thread: The Brink of War?

  1. #2701
    Administrator Moses's Avatar
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    === Incidentally, as you seem to conflate the massacres of Jews with National Socialism, you might find it interesting to read the Wikipedia article on Russian pogroms in Ukraine and Poland, beginning with the 1821 progrom in Odessa, continuing with those in 1881-1884 in Poland and Ukraine, and in 1903-1906. ===

    How it is relevant to naming streets in Kiyev in memory of Shushkevych by modern Nazi regime in Ukraine?

    Here it is:

    Roman-Shukhevych-Bataillon-201-sitting-second-from-left-1942..jpg

    373dc9b1f56847c950732402cb1f624d.jpg
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  2. #2702
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    [QUOTE=Moses;294927]=== Incidentally, as you seem to conflate the massacres of Jews with National Socialism, you might find it interesting to read the Wikipedia article on Russian pogroms in Ukraine and Poland, beginning with the 1821 progrom in Odessa, continuing with those in 1881-1884 in Poland and Ukraine, and in 1903-1906. ===

    How it is relevant to naming streets in Kiyev in memory of Shushkevych by modern Nazi regime in Ukraine?

    It is relevant because the Russian state has a long history of committing genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, including the 22,000 Polish army officers massacred in the Katyn Forest, and the millions of Ukrainians who died in the Holodomor (which is internationally recognized as genocide by at least 32 governments).

    There is an English-language saying "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." This is used to say that people who have faults should not criticize other people for having the same faults, i.e., if Russia claims that Ukraine is full of Nazis, it should ensure that the same condition does not apply in Russia.

    There are, however, numerous reports that Neo-Nazis are very active in Russia, e.g.,
    Russia's long history of neo-Nazis, La Trobe University, https://www.latrobe.edu.au › news › articles › opinion
    Neo-Nazism in Russia, Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Neo-Nazism_in_Russia
    Russia is the World's Breeding Ground for Neo-Nazi Culture -, EU Political Report, https://www.eupoliticalreport.eu › russia-is-the-worlds-...
    Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, https://www.rferl.org › russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukr...
    Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine, The Moscow Times, https://www.themoscowtimes.com

    There are many more such articles are on the Internet. They are indicative of why your continued reference to Nazis in Ukraine rings hollow and why nobody (apart from perhaps some but not all Russians) believes Putin's claim that the war is about de-Nazifying Ukraine. If Putin really doesn't like Nazis, then he should put his own house in order first.

  3. #2703
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    ========== It is relevant because the Russian state has a long history of committing genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, including the 22,000 Polish army officers massacred in the Katyn Forest, and the millions of Ukrainians who died in the Holodomor (which is internationally recognized as genocide by at least 32 governments). =========

    It was not "Russian state", but USSR, and Holodomor was result of a stupid activity of Ukrainian communists in Ukraine within USSR. You may continue to blame them or Georgian Stalin - your choice dear.

    General secretary of Ukrainian Communist party in 1924-1928 was Kaganovich. Born to Jewish parents in Ukraine.
    General secretary in 1928-1934 was Stanisław Kosior from Poland.

    In July 1928, Kosior was appointed General Secretary of the Ukrainian SSR Communist Party. His return coincided with Stalin's decision to drive the peasants onto collective farms, a policy Kosior supported. Speaking to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, in November 1929, he argued that collectivisation was the only way to make progress in agriculture. In February 1930, he declared that Ukraine would be "completely collectivised in the course of the spring sowing campaign."[2]

    In July 1930, he was elevated to the Politburo of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. After the harvest in 1931, Kosior knew that collectivisation was causing a catastrophic fall in agricultural output in Ukraine - visiting Moscow in August, he warned Stalin's deputy, Lazar Kaganovich, that there would be a shortfall of 170 million poods (nearly three million tons) of grain, but Kaganovich blamed the problem on mass theft by Ukrainian peasants and forced Kosior to follow this opinion.[3][4]

    Addressing a plenum of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (of which he had been a member since 1926) he blamed the failure on middle ranking officials and party members who listened to the complaints of peasants that the quotas were too high. "Not only did they not fight; not only did they fail to organise the collective farm masses in the struggle for bread against the class enemy, they often followed along with this peasant mood", he said.[5]

    On Stalin's orders, Kosior pushed through a decree “On grain procurements” on 15 January 1932, which increased the power of the central government in Kharkiv to direct the confiscation of grain in the regions. The fact that he imposed this measure, "in spite of starvation in Ukrainian villages", was the first several examples cited by the Kyiv Court of Appeal in its 2010 resolution that judged Kosior to have been complicit in genocide.[6] The court also recorded that on 1 February, he and Vlas Chubar co-signed a decree “On Seed”, directing local committees to deny any seed aid to Ukraine’s collective farms; on 17 March he signed a decree “On seed reserves”, which led to increased repression of peasants who were resisting the confiscation of grain; and on 29 March, he pushed through a decree “On Polissia", under which 5,000 peasant families were deported from the Polissia region of Ukraine.[6]

    In April 1932, after touring the countryside, Kosior wrote to Stalin to say that there had been trouble from hungry peasants refusing to sow grain, and delicately requested that food be sent to Ukraine, which prompted an angry rejection, and seemingly made Stalin suspect that Kosior was not ruthless enough.[7] "The worst aspect of this situation is Kosior's silence," he told Kaganovich, when other leading Ukrainian communists pleaded for help. When Kosior submitted a formal request for relief to the Politburo in Moscow, in June it was turned down flat, and Kaganovich warned him his "mistakes" would be held as an example to other regional party leaders of how not to do their job. This was because Kosior's attempt to find an accommodation between Moscow's demands and the crisis in the countryside had turned Stalin against him. He told Kaganovich that Kosior was "manoeuvring" and engaging in "rotten diplomacy" and being "criminally frivolous." He considered sacking Kosior and sending Kaganovich in his place.[8] However, Kosior and his deputy, Pavel Postyshev, met Stalin, who agreed to reduce Ukraine's grain quota. That seemed to settle their differences.

    In November, Kosior delivered a speech blaming the trouble in the countryside on Ukrainian nationalists.[9] In 1935 he was awarded the Order of Lenin "for remarkable success in the field of agriculture".[10]
    more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Kosior

    So, tell me: whom you prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide: Jewish, Georgian or Polish?
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  4. #2704
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    and question: how Holodomor at past excuse modern Nazi regime in Ukraine and renaming streets in Ukraina in memory of well known murderer of Jewish and Polish people - Shukhevych and build up monuments in memory?

    1688225421589.jpg

    1688225659730.jpg

    1688225741286.jpg
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  5. #2705
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    ========== It is relevant because the Russian state has a long history of committing genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, including the 22,000 Polish army officers massacred in the Katyn Forest, and the millions of Ukrainians who died in the Holodomor (which is internationally recognized as genocide by at least 32 governments). =========

    It was not "Russian state", but USSR, and Holodomor was result of a stupid activity of Ukrainian communists in Ukraine within USSR. You may continue to blame them or Georgian Stalin - your choice dear.

    General secretary of Ukrainian Communist party in 1924-1928 was Kaganovich. Born to Jewish parents in Ukraine.
    General secretary in 1928-1934 was Stanisław Kosior from Poland.

    more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Kosior

    So, tell me: whom you prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide: Jewish, Georgian or Polish?
    You are grasping at straws in trying to support the rationale advanced for this war which began on Thursday, February 20, 2014, and is currently in day 494 of the "special military operation" that was supposed to last three days or so.

    In assigning blame, it needs to be remembered that both the Russian Empire before 1971, and the Soviet Union from 1917 to its collapse, as well as the current Russian Federation, were and are transcontinental multiethnic states.

    If you want to distinguish between the USSR and Russia, the largest state in the Soviet Union, then Russian Empire citizens were responsible for the genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, that took place before 1917, and Soviet Union citizens after that date.

    Lazar Kaganovich was, indeed, born as a citizen of the Russian Empire to Jewish parents and married a Kievan Jewish wife. However, as the Wikipedia article on him notes, he "frequently found it necessary to allow great cruelties to occur to his family to preserve Stalin's trust in him, such as allowing his brother to be coerced into suicide." Together with Vyacheslav Molotov, he was given the task of implementation of the collectivization policy that influenced the 1932–33 famine in Ukraine.

    Stanisław Kosior was born in 1889 in Węgrów in the Siedlce Governorate of the Russian Empire, i.e., though ethncially Polish, he was born a Russian citizen, as was Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin (born Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili), who was born in a poor ethnic Georgian family in the town of Gori in the Tiflis Governorate of the Russian Empire, i.e., as a Russian citizen.

    So, to answer your question of whom I prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide, the answer is citizens of the Russian Empire and those of the Soviet Union who put the state above their own ethnic group.

    On 13 January 2010, Kyiv Appellate Court posthumously found Kaganovich, Postyshev, Kosior, Chubar and other Soviet Communist Party functionaries guilty of genocide against Ukrainians. As noted in my earlier post, the famine is recognised as genocide by some 32 governments worldwide.

  6. #2706
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    =====If you want to distinguish between the USSR and Russia, the largest state in the Soviet Union, then Russian Empire citizens were responsible for the genocides against such groups as the Jews, the Circassians, the Kazan Tatars, and others, that took place before 1917, and Soviet Union citizens after that date.====

    Indeed. Do you know who was Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg?

    ===So, to answer your question of whom I prefer blame as a source of famine in Ukraine and genocide, the answer is citizens of the Russian Empire and those of the Soviet Union who put the state above their own ethnic group.===
    Well, then you should blame communists.
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  7. #2707
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    =====Indeed. Do you know who was Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg? ====== Well, then you should blame communists.
    Grasping at more straws? Princess Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg is better known as Catherine II, the Great, and the wife/widow of Emperor Peter III of the House of Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp. As both, by ancestry, were German, I guess you are now going to blame individual Germans for past atrocities. That, however, would ignore that fact that they were the rulers of the Russian, not the German, Empire, and their orders were carried out by Imperial Russian citizens.

    Shifting blame to the Communists, without acknowledging that they were citizens of the Soviet Union, is also grasping at straws. Perhaps you want to do back far enough, given that Karl Marx and Friedrich Engel, authors of the "Communist Manifesto," were born in the German Empire, Marx into a family of Jewish ancestry, so that you can blame the actions of the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and the Russian Federation on the Germans and the Jews?

  8. #2708
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses View Post
    and question: how Holodomor at past excuse modern Nazi regime in Ukraine and renaming streets in Ukraina in memory of well known murderer of Jewish and Polish people - Shukhevych and build up monuments in memory?

    1688225421589.jpg

    1688225659730.jpg

    1688225741286.jpg

    Still playing the same old tune - that there is a modern Nazi regime in Ukraine?

    An article entitled "Statement on the War in Ukraine by Scholars of Genocide, Nazism and World War II," written by Izabella Tabarovsky and published in Jewish Journal (https://jewishjournal.com/news/world...-world-war-ii/) on February 27, 2022m categorically states "Russian propaganda has painted the Ukrainian state as Nazi and fascist ever since Russian special forces first entered Ukraine in 2014, annexing the Crimea and fomenting the conflict in the Donbas, which has smoldered for eight long years. It was propaganda in 2014. It remains propaganda today."

    The statement, by signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II, said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.” “We strongly reject the Russian government’s cynical abuse of the term genocide, the memory of World War II and the Holocaust, and the equation of the Ukrainian state with the Nazi regime to justify its unprovoked aggression,” the statement says. “This rhetoric is factually wrong, morally repugnant and deeply offensive to the memory of millions of victims of Nazism and those who courageously fought against it, including Russian and Ukrainian soldiers of the Red Army."

    This is not to deny that ultra-right wing groups do exist in Ukraine, as they do in many other countries including the Russian Federation, but to claim that there is a " modern Nazi regime in Ukraine" is just monumentally stupid.

    With regard to erecting statues, many countries in the former Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe had statues of Lenin until they were removed after the invasion of Ukraine in 2022, but that did not mean they were still Communist. There is a statue of Lenin in Seattle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin_(Seattle), but that doesn't mean Washington State has a communist government.

    Surely you don't think that the statue of Lenin at the entrance to Belfast's The Kremlin Bar, a gay bar, is/was not meant to suggest that Lenin was gay hero? See "A giant Lenin statue heralds proletariats of all ages to what many regard as Ireland's number one gay hot spot." (https://www.inyourpocket.com/belfast/Kremlin_28094v).

  9. #2709
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    ====The statement, by signed by more than 300 historians who study genocide, Nazism and World War II, said Putin’s rhetoric about de-Nazifying fascists among Ukraine’s elected leadership is “propaganda.====

    So, it is Putin made installations of monuments in memory of Shukhevych, who is responsible for deaths of tens thousands Jewish and Polish? Streets were renamed also by Putin's order?
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  10. #2710
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    Re: The Brink of War?

    And, dear, you will get bad position in this dispute, if you will talk about history in 17-19 centuries.

    Because I will remind you just one word: slavery. Centuries of slavery for which West is responsible.
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