The Brink of War?

[Dragonman]

You don't know Russian history as well as that "journalist". You should read sources, not storytellers - they are stupid propagandists. Or at least check WIKI.

Story with Surovikin was totally opposite. When here was attempt of coup in 1991, he was on "bad side". Coup failed and people won. So you can't tell about Tiananmen - people won here. Surovikin was 9 months in prison after it, but his actions wasn't recognized as criminal and he also sworn to serve Russia.

Since that time he is used as ruthless general in all military operations where no needs to worry about collateral damage.

What was factually incorrect in what I posted? I did not state on which side Surovikin was, merely that he was/infamous for the shooting of three protesters - and I never said on which side the protesters were, either.

You don't cite sources (as usual) for your comments, and I don't read Russian, so I checked Wikipedia as you suggested. This is what the Wikipedia entry on Surovikin and 1991 states: "By August 1991, he was a captain and commander of the 1st Rifle Battalion in the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division. During the August Coup in Moscow, Surovikin was ordered to send his battalion into the tunnel on Garden Ring, where three anti-coup demonstrators were killed. After the defeat of the coup, Surovikin was arrested and held under investigation for seven months (note: not 9 as you claimed). However, the charges were dropped on 10 December because Boris Yeltsin[6] concluded that Surovikin was only following orders (note: I never claimed he wasn't). He was promoted to the rank of major afterwards."

It explicitly states Surovikin was following orders when the three were killed - just as those in Tiananmen Square were following orders.

Whether the people won or lost was not the point of my comment, merely that Surovikin's forces killed protesters who were in favor of democracy.

[Moses]

What was factually incorrect in what I posted? I did not state on which side Surovikin was, merely that he was/infamous for the shooting of three protesters - and I never said on which side the protesters were, either.

You don't cite sources (as usual) for your comments, and I don't read Russian, so I checked Wikipedia as you suggested. This is what the Wikipedia entry on Surovikin and 1991 states: "By August 1991, he was a captain and commander of the 1st Rifle Battalion in the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division. During the August Coup in Moscow, Surovikin was ordered to send his battalion into the tunnel on Garden Ring, where three anti-coup demonstrators were killed. After the defeat of the coup, Surovikin was arrested and held under investigation for seven months. However, the charges were dropped on 10 December because Boris Yeltsin[6] concluded that Surovikin was only following orders. He was promoted to the rank of major afterwards."

It explicitly states Surovikin was following orders when the three were killed - just as those in Tiananmen Square were following orders.

Yes, as usual you are wrong.

Use sources, not a propaganda. Surovikin never shoot or gave order to shoot in 1991. Exactly that why he wasn't recognized as criminal. That coup was failed without any shooting by army, but here was few shooting provocations (maybe secret service?).

3 person died in attempts to stop tank by covering (I don't know correct English word) "watching holes"/"watching windows" (?) of tank driver. They expected what after covering "holes" of tank it will stop. They were on straight street with no turns, so driver just kept moving and these 3 were damaged by tank itself because they were on the way of tank and driver not saw them because of covered "holes".

And speaking about Tiananmen. Here is how looks memorial of these 3 persons in Moscow. By decree of Putin their families monthly receive money support. People won here.

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[Dragonman]

Yes, as usual you are wrong.

Use sources, not a propaganda. Surovikin never shoot or gave order to shoot in 1991. Exactly that why he wasn't recognized as criminal. That coup was failed without any shooting by army, but here was few shooting provocations (maybe secret service?).

3 person died in attempts to stop tank by covering (I don't know correct English word) "watching holes"/"watching windows" (?) of tank driver. They expected what after covering "holes" of tank it will stop. They were on straight street with no turns, so driver just kept moving and these 3 were damaged by tank itself because they were on the way of tank and driver not saw them because of covered "holes".

And speaking about Tiananmen. Here is how looks memorial of these 3 persons in Moscow. People won here.

1.jpg

Never satisfied, are you? You tell me to look at Wikipedia. I look at Wikipedia, but you don't accept what it says, but do the written equivalent of putting words in my mouth.

It is my understanding that, as the tanks were under his command, the military doctrine of "Command responsibility" applies. This refers to the “accountability or responsibility or answerability of the commander of a Military Force or Unit for the acts of his men, inclusive of the authority to order, to direct, to prevent or control the acts of his men.” Therefore, he was responsible for what happened, whether or not he gave a direct command to fire.

See "Russian Federation. Practice Relating to Rule 153. Command Responsibility for Failure to Prevent, Punish or Report War Crimes (https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/custo...cou_ru_rule153). I am aware the 1991 was not an armed conflict per se, but the doctrine still applied.

You tell me to use sources, not propaganda, but you NEVER cite sources, just as you have not in your posting. Take note of your own practice before stating I used propaganda, and cite the titles of articles or URLs.

Taiwan has two Tiananmen Memorials, see "Taiwan hosts only Tiananmen Square Massacre memorial in Chinese-speaking world" (2021/06/04 22:00; https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4216559), and a replica of the "Pillar of Shame" that used to be in Hong Kong until the PRC had it removed ("Taiwan Unveils Pillar of Shame Replica, Hosting Only Tiananmen Vigil in the Chinese-speaking World," June 04, 2022 12:07 PM, https://www.voanews.com/a/taiwan-unv...d/6603353.html).

[Dodger]

Interesting perspective on the war from a highly respected Estonia Spy Chief:

https://www.aol.com/news/ukraine-win...183016999.html

[Dodger]

Putin has labeled the bombing of the Crimea Bridge as a "Terrorist Attack".

Ukraine should respond by telling him......"No, it was just a Special Operation".

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-...484af9cff8c076

[Moses]

Putin has labeled the bombing of the Crimea Bridge as a "Terrorist Attack".

Ukraine should respond by telling him......"No, it was just a Special Operation".

https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-...484af9cff8c076

Well... not exactly... now they complain "Why Russians hit infrastructure? It is terrorist attack!"

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[Dodger]

Well, if things couldn't get worse for Putin, his Prize Crimea Bridge just got bombed.

What kind of emotional tantrum will he have now, e.g., send more untrained troops to their sacrificial slaughter, order the bombing of a nuclear facility somewhere to cause mass human casualties and fuck up the environment, launch a gas attack on the Ukrainian civilian population? Who knows.

As I reply to myself:

Yep, there he goes, ordering massive missile strikes against civilian targets for his revenge.

Reports of whole towns, homes, farms, hospitals, utility services, and even a children's playground all turned to dust.

The most pronounced definition of a "Coward".

[cdnmatt]

Apparently, some of the missile strikes Russia just recently engaged in are within the "annexed" regions that are now effectively Russia.

I thought they were supposed to have full security from the Russian government? Why is the Russian military striking their cities with missiles?

[Dodger]

Apparently, some of the missile strikes Russia just recently engaged in are within the "annexed" regions that are now effectively Russia.

I thought they were supposed to have full security from the Russian government? Why is the Russian military striking their cities with missiles?

They must be zooming in on all the Nazis.

[cdnmatt]

They must be zooming in on all the Nazis.

Yeah, I heard all the Nazis are hanging out in the kindergartens these days.