The Brink of War?

[Surfcrest]

Is the tension at the Ukrainian border really about the expansion of Russia…or the expansion of NATO?

Surfcrest

[cdnmatt]

Is the tension at the Ukrainian border really about the expansion of Russia…or the expansion of NATO?

Surfcrest

Both, really. This all started back in 1991 when Ukraine declared independance at which time they began drifting to the West. The momentum towards the West then increased after the 2014 election, at which point Putin decided to annex Crimea and start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine using Russian seperatists.

Ukraine natually got fairly nervous at this so asked, "yo NATO, mind if we join you guys so we can tell the Russians to fuck off?", to which Putin said, "uh uh, you ain't becoming friends with my enemy" and proceeded to send over 140,000 soldiers to Ukraine's border. And now we are where we are.

Remember, majority of Ukrainians remember full well what happened to their countrymen especially under Stalin's rule due to his agriculture policies, hence have no desire whatsoever to rejoin mother Russia.

Obviously, NATO wouldn't mind having Ukraine as a member. At the same time, if Putin had just left Ukraine alone, they probably wouldn't be so hell bent on joining NATO. But no, after the Russian stooge got the boot in the 2014 election, Putin just had to go meddle in Ukraine with military force, so...

[Moses]

Both, really. This all started back in 1991 when Ukraine declared independance at which time they began drifting to the West. The momentum towards the West then increased after the 2014 election, at which point Putin decided to annex Crimea and start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine using Russian seperatists.

Matt. You for sure should make fact-check before to publish that bullshit here.

Russia got Crimea after disorders in Ukraine when nationalists shoot down parliament and pushed legally elected president out of country and called him not legitimate (Feb 22).

It was March 2014.

At March 11 parliament of Crimea declared independence from Ukraine, at March 14 parliament announced referendum, at March 16 was referendum and after it parliament send letter to Russia for to join Russian Federation as Autonomous republic. And at March 18 was signed agreement btw Crimea and Russia.

The referendum asked local populations whether they wanted to join Russia as a federal subject, or if they wanted to restore the 1992 Crimean constitution and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine. The official result from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was a 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 83 percent voter turnout, and within the local government of Sevastopol there was also a 97 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 89 percent voter turnout.

The United Nations Development Program conducted a series of polls in Crimea between 2009 and 2011 about the question of leaving Ukraine and joining Russia with a sample size of 1,200:

Quarter Yes No Undecided
2009 Q3 70% 14% 16%
2009 Q4 67% 15% 18%
2010 Q1 66% 14% 20%
2010 Q2 65% 12% 23%
2010 Q3 67% 11% 22%
2010 Q4 66% 9% 25%
2011 Q4 65.6% 14.2% 20.2%

more information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_C...tus_referendum

Elections in Ukraine was at the end of May 2014 when all these nazi took power and forbade some parties for to be sure what no one serious opposing competitor may win.

[cdnmatt]

Same shit, Moses -- it all happened at the same time. The Ukrainians decided to kick the Russian stooge out of Kiev, which prompted Putin to annex Crimea and start a proxy war in Eastern Ukraine. This understandably scared Ukraine, hence they began agressively pursuing membership into NATO.

For the most part, Ukraine seemed quite content being a buffer state between Russia and the West. That is until Putin decided to move into Ukraine with military force. Now understandably, Ukraine has changed its tune and badly wants into NATO, so they can live in peace without the constant threat of Russian aggression.

NATO will never ban Ukraine from becoming a member, as that defeats the entire reason NATO was initially formed. If Putin wants to risk plunging Russia into a 20 year economic depression over this, that's on him.

[Moses]

That is until Putin decided to move into Ukraine with military force.

There is no Russian military forces in Ukraine till now. Even Boris Johnson agreed with that few days ago when he spoke about sanctions: "UK will implement sanction as soon as first Russian soldier will step to Ukrainian territory"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...iv-putin-orban

[cdnmatt]

Russia annexed Crimeia, and the separatists in Eastern Ukraine are being supported by the Russian military. That's more than enough for any country to worry about its territorial sovereignty.

[Moses]

==== Russia annexed Crimeia === yes, took back

====and the separtists in Eastern Ukraine are being supported by the Russian military==== By Russia, correct. US makes support to tens of regimes, France makes support to few regimes in Africa including Mali where it competes with Russia. Support isn't crime. Every country supports some parties, movements... smart people calls that diplomacy... They are minority, Russia and Red Cross supports them.

Why not? US sometimes even supports both sides of military conflict for to be sure what winner will give benefits to US... it calls geopolitics so?

Why you don't care what UK, US and some other countries already 7 years supports nazi and nationalists at west of Ukraine who took power as results of disorders and changed Constitution? You didn't knew? At 2014 they declined current Constitution and announced what there will be old one (from 2004), only then they had chance to make "impeachment" to president Yanukovitch not so questionable...

[cdnmatt]

> Russia annexed Crimeia

yes, took back

No, then Russia shouldn't have signed Crimea over to Ukraine in 1954. By your logic, Russia should be allowed to invade and annex Alaska without penalty, because they used to own it at one point in history.

Or let's even give your point of view the benefit of the doubt, and say Crimea belongs to Russia moreso than Ukraine as there were loads of Russian citizens living ther, et al. If that's the case, then why didn't Russia push Crimeia to have a referendum, declare independance, secede from Ukraine and lobby the Russian government to join as a Russian state? You know, the normal and peaceful way to go about this.

But no, it's easier to just roll in with tanks and say, "yep, this land is ours now, because we said so". Then afterwards, get all pissed off and confused because Ukraine wants to join NATO.

[Moses]

No, then Russia shouldn't have signed Crimea over to Ukraine in 1954.

Russia didn't it in 1954. It was signed by General secretary of Communist party of USSR Khruschev. Nobody asked Russia.

[Moses]

Matt, did you saw materials what I gave to you URL? UN made polls in Crimea many years where they want to be: since 2009. Answer even under pro-kremlin govt in Ukraine was "Russia". After nationalist won, Crimea just made step in long time wished direction.