The Brink of War?

[Dodger]

Why you wonder now "what is going on?" after broken promise and multiple warnings about "red line"? Somebody expected what Russian balls aren't from steel?

What gives Putin the right to tell Ukraine ANYTHING?

It's their country. Why is that so hard to understand?

Every country on earth has the right to chose who they align themselves with, either as friends and/or allies, or by formal membership in an Alliance such as NATO. Who does Putin think he is trampling around on his neighbors property painting red lines as if he owns the place - and commanding them not to become allies with someone else???

All said, I'm a firm believer in diplomacy, especially when you're dealing with someone as trigger-happy as Putin.

I think a deal could be struck if Putin would agree to "NEVER EXPANDING RUSSIAN TERRITORY BEYOND ITS CURRENT LEGAL BORDERS FOR ANY REASON".

If I were Zelinski, this type of an agreement would suffice, and I would then gladly agree to remain "neutral status" and forego joining NATO.

As far as Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk go - they belong to Ukraine. Separatists (Putin's mercenaries) would have to leave Donetsk, and Luhansk. Any neo-Nazi's hanging around in those areas would be asked to please move to Brazil like all the other Nazi's did after WW II.. Better yet, send them to America. Donald Trump is thinking of running for a second term and will need all the support he can get.

There you have it:

Ukraine remains neutral posing no threat to Russia - Russia remains neutral within the confines of its own borders...and NATO can rest assured that Putin's empire building aspirations have come to a halt.

Everyone's happy...right?

[cdnmatt]

The only thing what destroys your rhetoric is: in 1989 it was promised not to expand to the East. And it isn't only voluntary membership, but also members should agree to accept new member. And "old" members gave promise.

Why you wonder now "what is going on?" after broken promise and multiple warnings about "red line"? Somebody expected what Russian balls aren't from steel?

Well, which is it then? I thought the invasion was to get rid of the Nazis? Then sometimes it's because Ukraine wants to join NATO, other times it's because there's lots of Russian speakers in Ukraine that need to be saved, other times it's because Ukraine is actually part of Russia as you don't recognize the 1954 transfer, sometimes it's due to perceived US expansionism, and sometimes it's simply "well, the US did it so why can't we", and the list goes on.

It's as if you guys just keep throwing different reasons at the wall, and hope something sticks.

[Moses]

What gives Putin the right to tell Ukraine ANYTHING?

It's their country. Why is that so hard to understand?

What gives US the right to tell Libya ANYTHING?
What gives US the right to tell Vietnam ANYTHING?
What gives to NATO and US the right to tell Iraq ANYTHING?
What gives to NATO and US the right to tell Yugoslavia ANYTHING?

It's their country. Why is that so hard to understand?

At least Russia has rights to worry about Russians who are living in Ukraine and were killed one by one by nationalists, and Ukraine has shared border with Russia and laying in Russian zone of safety and economical interests, while Iraq, Libya, Vietnam and Yugoslavia are (were) located even on another continent from US and NATO (3 of them).

Doubled standards? Where was you tongue at times of Yugoslavia, Iraq or Libya???

US and NATO opened Pandora's box when destroyed Yugoslavia. Well, what are you complain about now?

[Moses]

Yeah, this whole bs about NATO being too expansionary is pretty lame. Last I checked, it's Russia that keeps invading other nations via their peace keeping missions, whereas NATO hasn't invaded anyone?

Could you please find words "Iraq" and "Yugoslavia" in dictionaries and repeat your last sentence again after it? Or, maybe "Syria"?

NATO wiped whole country in 1999 from the map of Europa, 5700 fatalities within civilians. Invasion was without any resolution of UN.

[cdnmatt]

I don't know who this guy is, but I found it quite interesting at least:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwPMtmuuVNw

[Dodger]

Doubled standards? Where was you tongue at times of Yugoslavia, Iraq or Libya???

My tongue was in exactly the same place back then as it is right now. If I didn't agree with the actions of my own country I'd protest against those actions just as loudly as I am now about Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I actively protested against 2 of the wars you referenced in your post, but that's totally irrelevant to the matter at hand.

There hasn't been a war fought in history where both sides haven't lost.

When I see crimes against humanity like the innocent civilian casualties we're seeing in Ukraine right now, like it or not, action has to be taken. I could care less what other countries did to each other in the past, because that has absolutely nothing to do with the solution at hand. And the solution is "saving innocent lives".

I saw a video of a Ukrainian mother carrying her 7 year old daughter who just had her left arm blown off by bomb shrapnel. That's all I care about. Not Yugoslavia, Libya, Vietnam, Iraq, Mars, Neptune, or anywhere else for that matter.

[Dodger]

I don't know who this guy is, but I found it quite interesting at least

Peter Zeihan is a well-known geopolitical strategist.

Very interesting and tremendously insightful video.

[Dax]

Hello, where is everyone? Moses? Dodger, cdnmatt? Anyone? Is the war over?

[cdnmatt]

I'm here, just swimming in work though.

Plate should clear in a few days, will grab a bottle then, and tell Moses how it is.

Ukrainians are getting balsy though... blew up an oil depot on Russian soil this morning. Cool. Had to laugh when Russia responded with, "don't be too agressive now, you might jepordize peace negotiations". Really, Russia?

I think for the most part I'm just patiently waiting for the inevitable second collapse of Russia, and just have my fingers crossed in the meantime that nukes don't fly.

[Dax]

Nice to know you are alive and well. While I know we all wish the war in Ukraine never happened; I enjoyed the discussion, confrontation and the lessons learned of how ten men can look at a problem and one man's beliefs could be so way out of line with the other nine. I know this is what makes the world go round, but I have to say, for me, it's still a very unbelievable situation to observe first-hand. Stay safe, Matt.