Sodomy and Moslems

[christianpfc]

But from what I have read, my understanding is that there is no specific verse in the Qu'ran outlining punishment for sex between men, unlike the Bible. It only states that it is wrong for two men to have sex, but if they repent, "let them be. Allah is merciful!

Above I said that the history of gay sex in Muslim countries is irrelevant to me, only the present is.
Here I say what is written in religious texts is irrelevant for me, how it is implemented is the only thing that counts. I would rather be a gay in a Christian country than in Muslim country.

From then on, “cut sleeve” (黄九郎)...

I had to look this up (the Chinese script is the name of the lover, not "cut sleeve") and came across an article on wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_Sleeve that says basically the same as your two paragraphs, but in other words. Unless you are a sinologist and can quote these names and dates from memory, you must have looked it up somewhere and re-worded it? Why not quote the source?

[Armando]

Why not quote the source?

Do you seriously expect every poster to quote the sources for comments on the Board? If yes, why request sources for my comments on China and not those on Islam? You make no sense.

But you asked about China. OK. Yes, I lived in China for three years. Every Chinese gay is perfectly well aware of all the comments I made. But you want sources.

So, first source is a section in the book I have owned for many years titled "A Hidden Love: Art and Homosexuality" by Dominique Fernandez. It has a substantial section titled "The Far East" and deals with all the China issues I mentioned including Emperor Ai Ti and his lover Dong Xian whose name is often written in English as Tung Hsien. However, it does not give a translation for Cut Sleeve.

A_Hidden_Love_cover.jpg

Second is a paper from the American Psychological Association, part of which reads: "Homosexuality was widespread, recognized and fairly tolerated, although not entirely accepted, in ancient China. After being invaded and defeated by the Western powers in the mid- to late 19th century, "progressive" Chinese intellectuals at the turn of the 20th century believed that Chinese traditions were "backward" and the actual cause of China's defeat; they looked to Westernization as a cure for the nation. Consequently, a pathological view of homosexuality and other antihomosexual attitudes were adopted by the Chinese."

Third, "Passions of the Cut Sleeve" is referred to in multiple sources including "A Hidden Love" and the following passage from JStor Daily: "Emperor Ai was far from the only Chinese emperor to take a male companion openly."

Another definitive book "Passions of the Cut Sleeve: The Male Homosexual Tradition" written by Brett Hinsch and published in 1990 also refers to Ai Ti and Tung Hsien. He adds that in China all ten emperors who ruled over the first two centuries of the Han dynasty were 'openly bisexual,' with Ai being the tenth. Each had a '“male favorite".

You correctly state that the three Chinese characters I included are not a direct translation of cut sleeve. These would be 斷袖之癖. But both sets of characters are interchangeable in terms of meaning in historical references to homosexuality in China.

You might also wish to check your wikipedia reference. In fact it is not the story of Emperor Ai Ti and his lover. It is the title of a short story by Pu Songlin 黄九郎 translated into English as "Cut Sleeve" and which appears in a volume of stories about China. The end of the first paragraph states: "the title alludes to Emperor Ai of Han's same-sex relationship with Dong Xian." But Pu's story is pure fiction. Plus you actually refer to a book published in 1740 - not the actual facts in my earlier post.

If you still want more information, ask any Chinese gay.

[StevieWonders]

If you still want more information, ask any Chinese gay.

Any? Seriously- any?

[Armando]

Any? Seriously- any?

Seriously ANY! The story of Ai Ti and the term "Cut Sleeve" is universally known (apart obviously from babies and pre-teen boys).

[StevieWonders]

Seriously ANY! The story of Ai Ti and the term "Cut Sleeve" is universally known (apart obviously from babies and pre-teen boys).

Maybe in China - perhaps arsenal can do a survey! However I did a quick survey of my Chinese gay expat acquaintance. One Malaysian-born, lives with his Caucasian boyfriend - no idea, never heard of and no interest in Chinese emperors nor a term called “Cut Sleeve”. The other, a Honkie with a Taiwanese boyfriend (they host sex parties regularly) made a similar response. People who throw around words like “all”, “any” or “every” have no credibility.

[Armando]

Well if you are going to be pedantic, my reference was to gay guys in China who are the Chinese. A Malaysian Chinese is a citizen of Malaysia, not China. You can decide who is credible and who is not - as you usually do.

[StevieWonders]

Heavens yes, let’s not mean what we say for fear of being called “pedantic”

[Nirish guy]

Seriously ANY! The story of Ai Ti and the term "Cut Sleeve" is universally known (apart obviously from babies and pre-teen boys).

I actually only became aware of the whole "cut sleeve" story just this very week actually - my source - TIKTOK ! :-) See, now who said social media can't be educational eh ! :-)

[Armando]

There is an allied subject re the Moslem community and its relationship to the Jews and others. I am sure it has been aired before but I always remain curious: why is it that both religions require male circumcision? For Jews it seems to be performed within a week or so of birth. For Muslim men the ages seem to vary and can be as late as 12.

I understand it goes back to the Abrahamic myth in the Old Testament. Yet we know that nothing at that time was written down until at least 500 years after the events so described. Why base an unnecessary surgical procedure on a myth that may or not be true?

We know too that doctors, largely in the United States but also in some other countries, prescribe circumcision for health and cleanliness reasons. A 2015 WHO Report states that between 76 and 92% of US guys are circumcised. Perhaps this is the reason why almost every boy in the Philippines has had the deadliest cut - the influence of its time as an American colony, although some sources suggest that its practice goes back to tribal societies prior to colonial times.

Jewish males routinely wear the yarmulka as a symbol of their faith. Should they not also have to have a piece of clear plastic at the front of their pants to show that other symbol of their faith? Indeed, I fail to understand the point of circumcision when so few can know if you have had the procedure done or not. Do you have to show all before a rabbi? I don't have to show anyone the small scar to illustrate that I have had my appendix out.

I fully realise that some poor guys have phimosis or some other such medical difficulty. That makes circumcision important. Yet why should such an unnecessary medical procedure be a requirement of faith?

[christianpfc]

Jews and Muslims are united in circumcision and not eating pork.

Religions are illogical: in churches, wats and mosques you have to take off your hat;
but when I went to a Hindu temple in Bangkok, I had to cover my head with provided cloth.

Hindus eat pork, but no beef; Muslims eat beef, but no pork.
In India this goes as far as killing each other for suspicion of slaughtering pork or beef [citation needed].

In Islam, it's forbidden to depict Muhammed (and they take it serious! - Charlie Hebdo),
whereas Christianity and Buddhism erect statues, the bigger the better.

There is a Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, but everything other longer established and wider practiced religions claim is as credible as what the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn claims.

And there is a Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, who managed to get times for their masses displayed along with Catholic and Protestant masses for some time, but than had to remove the information sign after legal action from C and P.