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Thread: Sodomy and Moslems

  1. #1
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    Sodomy and Moslems

    Sodomy for Moslems, I found out reading this week's Economist, only takes place if the penis penetrates the anus further than the line of circumcision. That information I gleaned from an article headed "Gay people are reclaiming an Islamic heritage: in the old days Muslims were quite tolerant of homosexuality". Who knew? Similarly when Lord Macartney's embassy reach Peking in 1793 he found a court steeped in sodomy, with the Qianlong Emperor having a particular favourite. Thereafter sodomy fell into disrepute in China. I'll leave arsenal to explain all of that to you.

    I've reproduced the Economist's article in full to save you the bother of looking it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economist
    For decades regimes in the Middle East have alleged that homosexuality is both morally unacceptable and a Western import. Many gay activists disagree on both counts. Homophobia is the Western import, they claim, introduced by puritanical Europeans. “Ban the colonial law,” cried campaigners in Tunisia in December, referring to a law criminalising gay sex written by the French more than a century ago. “All these homophobic laws in the Middle East were brought in by colonialism to undermine Islam’s permissive civilisation,” says Ramy Khouili, a Tunisian activist.

    History is complicated, and prejudice has ancient roots. Nonetheless, activists can point to periods of the Islamic past when Arab rulers were more liberal about sex. They relate how the Caliph Amin in ninth-century Baghdad had a male lover and feted gay poets. They read poems from a classical genre called mujun, or hedonistic smut. And they recall that the Ottoman Turks, who ruled most of the Middle East in the 19th century, decriminalised homosexuality a century before America and Britain. Back then, “you could be with a man or a woman,” says the transgender founder of north Africa’s first gay movement, the Abu Nawas Association, named after a great Arab poet, who was gay. “There were men dressed as women and living as women—and it was normal.”

    “A Promenade of the Hearts”, a collection of stories and poems compiled by Ahmad al-Tifashi, a 13th-century Arab sexologist, is experiencing a revival in Beirut’s libraries. The penis, he claims, is better shaped for anal than vaginal penetration. While much classical and Ottoman poetry features male lovers, gay groups are discovering lesbian poetry from the past. “How much have we grinded sister, ninety pilgrimages/ More delightful and invisible than the entries of the penis head,” reads a couplet.

    Gay poetry is not the only art form undergoing a renaissance. Muhammad Issaoui, who calls himself “a queer dancer”, adapts the traditions of male belly-dancers once common in Cairo and Beirut. He performs in Tunisia’s clubs and theatres clad just in feather boas and underpants. “It was natural for men to express their feminine sides before,” he says. “It was just pleasure and art.”

    Some activists are examining old legal texts—and finding contradictions. Classical jurists upheld the Koran’s clear prohibition of sodomy, yet debated how deep the penis must penetrate to be deemed a violation. (Up to the line of circumcision, according to a standard work written by Shia Muslims.) The present-day jihadists of Islamic State throw gay people off rooftops, citing a reported saying of the Prophet endorsing the practice. But scholars have struggled to find historical cases of anyone taking this verse literally.

    This gay re-engagement with Islam has its critics. Many feminists are secular and see Muslim clerics as part of the patriarchy they want to topple. Still, most are willing to lend their support to gay people now facing arrest, torture and censorship by Arab rulers. “The problem isn’t Islam,” says Rasha Younes, a Lebanon-based researcher for Human Rights Watch, a monitoring group. “It’s the oppressive regimes who want to control us and the Middle East in its name.”
    https://www.economist.com/middle-eas...lamic-heritage


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    Forum's veteran Khor tose's Avatar
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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Quote Originally Posted by StevieWonders View Post
    The present-day jihadists of Islamic State throw gay people off rooftops,
    Are you talking about Chechnya or Pattaya?

    Seriously. Many of the great writers, scientist, poets, philosophers and noted warriors in the Islamic world were gay or known to also enjoy the company of men. Even today gays can exist in much of the Moslem world if they are discrete. The summation statement that lays the cause of the present day discrimination is straight to the point. "It’s the oppressive regimes who want to control us and the Middle East in its name.”

    One major fault of any democracy, and one base for any dictator is how willing people are to vote for, or accept leaders who wrap themselves in morality. I don't see any difference between the Moslem world and the West in this regard. Come on, when you go to judge the Moslem world remember all the raids on gay bars, bathroom entrapment, and park stakeouts. I am not talking that long ago.

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Quote Originally Posted by Khor tose View Post
    Even today gays can exist in much of the Moslem world if they are discrete.
    I’m guessing you meant “discreet”.

    Your argument is with a writer of the Economist; I’m merely reporting their perspective.

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    Forum's veteran cdnmatt's Avatar
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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    I don't know, the Afghan military commanders don't seem too shy about it, or feel the need to be discreet.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/w...e-of-boys.html

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Islam’s permissive civilisation
    That reminds of Bild Zeitung who put "German Democratic Republic" in apostrophes because the owner thought that the GDR was neither German, nor democratic, nor a republic.

    What was possible regarding gay sex in Muslim countries centuries ago is irrelevant for me, nowadays I wouldn't want to be a gay in a Muslim country (I wouldn't want to be a woman either).

    Counterexample: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-dresde...ife/a-57604354
    Germany: Dresden Islamist knife attacker jailed for life
    The 21-year-old Syrian, motivated by homophobia, has received the maximum sentence possible after a fatal attack on a gay couple in Dresden.
    That leaves the question: why did the Syrian come to Germany, a country where gays can (better: could) walk hand in hand in public?

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Quote Originally Posted by christianpfc View Post
    That leaves the question: why did the Syrian come to Germany, a country where gays can (better: could) walk hand in hand in public?
    Because Germany (& other European countries) were dumb enough to let them in & treat them way better than they get treated at home, without requiring them to properly adapt to local culture and expectations.

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Quote Originally Posted by goji View Post
    Because Germany (& other European countries) were dumb enough to let them in & treat them way better than they get treated at home, without requiring them to properly adapt to local culture and expectations.
    If only Marine Le Pen was in charge?

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Quote Originally Posted by goji View Post
    Because Germany (& other European countries) were dumb enough to let them in & treat them way better than they get treated at home, without requiring them to properly adapt to local culture and expectations.
    Yes, kind of like why don't more Thais know fluent English? Do they just expect us foreigners to learn Thai, or something?

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Quote Originally Posted by cdnmatt View Post
    Yes, kind of like why don't more Thais know fluent English? Do they just expect us foreigners to learn Thai, or something?
    If they learn English they can go most places in the world. If we learn Thai there’s only one place to go.

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    Re: Sodomy and Moslems

    Fascinating! i know little about Islam other than I love its more physical manifestations in Islamic architecture, gardens and artefacts. But from what I have read, my understanding is that there is no specific verse in the Qu'ran outlining punishment for sex between men, unlike the Bible. It only states that it is wrong for two men to have sex, but if they repent, "let them be. Allah is merciful!"

    One verse in suggesting each to his own might even be regarded as implying it doesn't matter what each man does in his own life. "And if they accuse you of falsehood, say: 'My work to me and yours to you! You are free from responsibility for what I do and I for what you do."

    Verse 17:84 goes even further with its reference to the inclusion amongst many others of "men who have no desire for women."

    It is in the hadith, the alleged sayings of Muhammad that he specifically told his scribe and followers not to write down, that those who lived about 150 years after His death resurrected and published. These contain the stricter form of an Islamic code than in the Qu'ran. Despite inconsistencies, distortions of fact and contradictions, they have come to be incorporated into the Islamic doctrine of the more extreme proponents of the faith. Further, despite the fact that men did have sex with men at the time of Muhammad and in the following two centuries at least, it is only in the hadith that homosexuality is stated to be a "moral disorder."

    As for China, the country had a long tradition of homosexuality, at least as far as we know about the ruling classes. Emperors like Wu Ti (141 – 87 BC) and the Han Emperor Ai Ti (7-1 BC) had numerous male lovers. Sharing his couch with his favourite Dong Xian, the young man fell asleep across Ai Ti's sleeve. Rather than wake him, Ai Ti took his sword and simply cut off the royal sleeve.

    From then on, “cut sleeve” (黄九郎) became just one of many terms that appear throughout China’s literary history as a euphemism for homosexual love and devotion. Even as late as the 18th century, the book Passions of the Cut Sleeve outlines the fifty most famous cases of love between men in China. As suggested in the OP, the many thousands of missionaries who trailed in the wake of the traders and colonists are at least partly to blame for changing moral values in China re homosexuality.

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