Retirement Visa

[Maxx]

Yesterday I renewed my “Retirement Visa “ for the 16th time using the monthly income method.
This was one of the most seamless renewals ,the most taxing issue in the whole process was the schlep up to Bangkok last week in the the heat to acquire my income verification letter from the Irish consulate in Wireless Rd.
That was the only financial document I submitted to the Immigration dept. in Jomtien nothing else was demanded.
He raced through my papers with his yellow maker not even demanding his usual ”you photo copy this “routine.
My reflections on the recent shenanigans regarding this issue is that much of it could have been avoided with a little more diplomacy by the western Diplomats.
The Irish Consulate has always required you submit supporting documents of income before issuing the verification letter ,This in my case has always been Bank statements .Pension letters and property income statements all U.K based.
The never at any point asked to see Thai Bank A/C”s or money transfers into Thailand.
Now while I am aware that my verification letter might not be of “Price .Waterhouse .Cooper” standard,
this has been the case for the last 15 years and seemingly nothing has changed.
When ”Big Joke” started his “Bad Guys out” Nationalist Bullshit he should have been seen as the latest Puyai who needed to be seen off by skilled diplomacy.
Netting a few Nigerian drug mules,Lao sex workers or a few destitute Americans would have kept everyone happy.
I have no idea what type of income verification he was demanding as apart from the notorious American swearing on the Bible nonsense (American exceptionalness gone mad )to the best of my knowledge most embassies required some documentation before issuing a verification letter.
Surely skilled Diplomats could see the wide range of interpretations that could be attached to the word “Verify “
Some diplomatic silence and mumbled mutterings of “Check “, Check” would surely have sufficed to maintain the status quo.
Instead we had a few of the Big Boys throwing their toys out from the pram creating unnecessary confusion and stress for their citizens
The American system of affidavits was open to abuse and surely a few accompanying documents would not have taxed the Embassy staff unduly.
As for the British consumed as they are by “ Brexit “ and not over taxing their already vastly reduced mission in Bangkok it was too good an opportunity to pass up.
So Such is life In LOS as they say who knows by next year we might all facing entirely new criteria.
Kudos to those Consulates and Embassies who were not panicked into making rash decisions, perhaps they could invite a few of the Big beasts to a refresher course in the art of Diplomacy!
I also managed to navigate this period relatively stress free by avoiding such sites as Thai visa thus keeping my blood pressure relatively stable. I checked occasionally on the Irish Consulate website and when the advice did not change I proceeded as I had done previous years

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[frequent]

The American system of affidavits was open to abuse and surely a few accompanying documents would not have taxed the Embassy staff unduly.

How do you propose the Embassy staff verify the "few accompanying documents"? As you have said, the Irish Embassy doesn't bother to verify whatever bullshit you may show them, which makes it no better than an affidavit sworn by someone with no regard for the truth. Anyone with access to Photoshop can knock up something that looks genuine. The Thais apparently demanded "verification" and the major embassies said, quite rightly in my opinion, "not our job"

[frequent]

By way of example: a friend of mine moves money between two bank accounts that he owns. One of the accounts shows incoming money as "rent". He submits a copy of the statements showing rental income (but not the other account) together with a copy of a residential lease showing the monthly rental to his Embassy who duly certify that they've seen the documentation that supports his income statement. If the Embassy were to verify his "income" they would find not only is he shuffling money between two bank accounts both in his own name, but the residential lease is for a property he does not own and with which he has no association. QED

[Smiles]

" ... Yesterday I renewed my “Retirement Visa “ for the 16th time using the monthly income method.
This was one of the most seamless renewals ,the most taxing issue in the whole process was the schlep up to Bangkok last week in the the heat to acquire my income verification letter from the Irish consulate in Wireless Rd.
That was the only financial document I submitted to the Immigration dept. in Jomtien nothing else was demanded...."

So Maxx ... let me get this straight.
You seem to be saying that the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or, getting a letter from a Thai bank showing monthly deposits of at least 65,000 baht route are no longer the only methods for attaining 12 month Extensions . . . and that now -- out of the blue -- the producing of an income letter from one's Embassy is now being accepted again by Thai Immigration for your extension?

(PS: I'm not interested in why. I'm not interested on Thai head cops getting the boot. Not interested in Nigerian drug smuggling. Not interested in the Irish. Not interested in Frequent's fetish with the word "verification". Not interested in kudos for Embassies.)

[Maxx]

"the producing of an income letter from one's Embassy is now being accepted again by Thai Immigration for your extension "

Smiles to the best of my knowledge an income letter from one's Embassy has never been rejected by Thai Immigration it was the British, U.S.Australian and Danish embassies who refused to issue such letters on the grounds that they would not verify income.

All other embassies seem to be business as usual although process of income verification may differ

[frequent]

So Maxx ... let me get this straight.
You seem to be saying that the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, or, getting a letter from a Thai bank showing monthly deposits of at least 65,000 baht route are no longer the only methods for attaining 12 month Extensions . . . and that now -- out of the blue -- the producing of an income letter from one's Embassy is now being accepted again by Thai Immigration for your extension?

Immigration want A letter verifying your income. If your Embassy will give you one well and good. Some embassies once gave a certification letter but are refusing to give a verification letter. Passport holders from those countries now have to produce an equivalent letter from their Thai bank, verifying that an amount equal to or greater than 65K baht has been received from abroad each and every month. The Irish Embassy is one of many who claim to be verifying the income (but see my example of how that isn't really verification) and will issue a verification letter for their citizens. The British, Americans and Australians know that that can be a sham and cannot be verified by an embassy official so won't issue such a letter

[dab69]

Close to retirement here in the USA. Wondering if I get a statement of earnings from Social Security Administration if this would be acceptable.
Have to work one more year so I get the required amount per month necessary for Thai authorities.

[Gaybutton]

if I get a statement of earnings from Social Security Administration if this would be acceptable.

It should be, but these days nobody can be certain what they will be walking into when they go to immigration for the retirement visa. You probably would be better trying to get a first-time retirement visa from the Thai embassy in your home country. Since you mention Social Security, I assume your home country is the USA.

For whatever method you use in order to get the retirement visa, you must have a Thai bank account. You're not going to get the retirement visa without one. That's getting more and more difficult for foreigners to do. As far as I know, the easiest Thai bank that will allow foreigners to open an account is Kasikorn Bank, aka K-Bank.

For the 65,000 baht per month method, you have to be able to prove the money has been deposited into your Thai bank account every month for at least a full year before applying for the visa, and you also have to prove the money was deposited from a foreign source. Proving the money was deposited from a foreign source won't be a problem if direct deposits are going into your account from Social Security.

The problem is immigration has been rejecting that method for several people, and it's difficult to know why.

The only method that you can be certain immigration will accept is the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account. Immigration is accepting that method, but there are a few rules you have to follow. At least 800,000 baht has to be in a Thai bank account and it must already have been in there for at least 3 months before applying for the visa. Despite the fact that the rules say the money has to be in the account for at least 2 months before applying, many immigration officials have been insisting that it be there for at least 3 months.

After they grant the visa, the 800,000 baht must remain in the account for at least 3 more months before you can withdraw any of it. After the 3 months, you can withdraw from the account, but at least 400,000 baht must remain in the account and cannot be withdrawn. If less than 400,000 baht is in the account at any time during the year, then the following year they won't grant the visa. Pattaya immigration has been requiring those who used the 800,000 baht method to return 3 months later with their updated bank passbook to prove you never let the account drop below 400,000 baht. As far as I know, Pattaya immigration is the only immigration office in Thailand doing that.

These rules about the 800,000 baht and the 400,000 baht are on my "I Don't Get It" list. I see it as a Catch-22. The reason for the requirement in the first place is so immigration knows you have enough to support yourself. But if something happens that necessitates withdrawing the money, now they won't grant the visa the following year even if you top up the account back to 800,000. And if during the year immigration finds out the account dropped below 400,000 baht, they can immediately revoke your visa. I gave up trying to figure out that logic.

As it stands right now, those, supposedly, are the rules. Now that just recently the chief of immigration has been replaced, nobody knows if rule changes will be forthcoming yet again. If the rules do change, I hope they at least will make more sense.

[Gaybutton]

Sorry, I spotted a mistake in my post above, but too late to edit the post.

The mistake is: "return 3 months later with their updated bank passbook to prove you never let the account drop below 400,000 baht."

I should have written, "return 3 months later with their updated bank passbook to prove you never let the account drop below 800,000 baht.

[2lz2p]

Based on reports I have rec'd, Jomtien Immigration is being fairly consistent for those using 800,000 baht in a Thai bank.

GB:

Pattaya immigration has been requiring those who used the 800,000 baht method to return 3 months later with their updated bank passbook to prove you never let the account drop below 400,000 baht. As far as I know, Pattaya immigration is the only immigration office in Thailand doing that

.

To clarify, GB's comments, I think he meant to say Jomtien Immigration requires you to return after 3 months to show you have not let the account balance drop below 800,000 (instead of 400,000), which is the new requirement as of March 1, 2019 rule change. Although the new rules say the 800,000 needs to be on deposit for 2 months before you make application (previously it was 2 months for new applicants and 3 months for renewals), GB is correct that there have been reports about some Immigration offices still saying it must be 3 months - however, I don't believe Jomtien Immigration is one of them as the document they have you sign to acknowledge the date you need to return (3 months after) shows the applicable rule in English, which clearly shows only the 2 month requirement. At all other times, you must maintain at least 400,000 baht in the account if you want to be able to renew using money in the bank method the following year.

Also, at Jomtien, they are apparently now requiring, when using the 800,000 in the bank, that the bank letter be dated on the date of application and also show a transaction in the account. At last Sunday's Pattaya City Expat Club meeting, a friend of mine said they renewed their extension the previous week. No problems encountered except they had to go out, do a transaction, and update their passbook to show it was made.

As to the 65,000 baht monthly income. If your Embassy still provides a letter saying the income was verified (whether it was or not, so long as the Embassy says it was), then that is all that is needed. I did see a report a month or so ago (Thaivisa as I recall) where a person whose Embassy still issues the certification letter, tried to renew (I don't believe it was at Jomtien) by showing bank records/letters and was told not acceptable, go get your Embassy letter.

As to what Jomtien requires, I had only one or two reports. One which was sent to me by email last week, the person also had just renewed that week. He said in addition to evidence of the source of his income (pension statement in his case) and Thai bank passbook, and his Thai bank statements verified by the two banks he used, they also wanted a letter from his Thai bank verifying the account name and balance -- same letter as used by those using 800,000. He mentioned that he used transferwise to his SCB bank but switched to Bangkok Bank early this year so the deposits would show as foreign transactions. He said that although his SCB statements did not indicate they were from a foreign source and had copies of his transferwise transactions and bank statement for his home bank where his pension was received in case needed, the SCB deposits were not challenged and he was not asked for any additional documentation.

Also, I have heard that Jomtien Immigration has a "sample bank letter" regarding the deposits to your account that you can provide to your bank to show what they want to see. However, I have not seen a copy of the example -- if anyone should happen to be at Immigration and obtain one, I think most of us will be most appreciative if they post a copy here and/or if they send a copy with an email to info@pcec.club, the PCEC will publish a copy.

I will be doing my renewal in June (one month before my renewal date) using the 65,000 baht monthly income method - being from USA, I will need to have all the relevant bank documents/pension statement. I do use Bangkok Bank and prior to March 2019 used ACH transfers through their NY branch in excess of the 65,000 baht monthly minimum. Since March, I have been using Transferwise. So, all of my transfers will show as foreign transfers (FTT code). Once I go through the process, I will post my experience.