Protests update

[Oliver]

Thankfully, my boyfriend (a Red shirt supporter though not an activist) lives in a remote area of Kamphaeng Phaet. Were he in Chaing Mai or Bangkok, I'd be very concerned for his welfare. After all, he's not a member of the middle-class elite...and with dark skin, just the sort of Thai the comic-opera generals fear.

I spoke to a number of old friends during my recent stay in Pattaya, most of them from Isaan, about the situation; I'm surprised that more falangs aren't (apparently) aware of what's going on beneath the surface of everyday life in the city. Don't they ever listen to what the guys say? or is "politics" banned from their conversations?

If that is the case- and I hope it's not- they/we are playing into the hands of the bufoons who have seized power and whose aim is to disenfranchise the majority of Thai citizens....including most of those whom we meet on our adventures.

[fountainhall]

I'm in Loei Province for the week-end. The only sign of a military presence has been one road block on the main road during a 70km trip. From the little I have observed, the coup seems rarely to be mentioned. But then I don't speak much Thai. Also, I'm in a small village rather than Loei city. I noticed 2 machine gun toting military at Don Mueang when I left on Thursday - but then I have also seen them several times at London's Heathrow on normal travelling days.

[Up2U]

My point is be sure our Thai friends use precautions and not wind up in a military re-education camp for their own happiness.

[bkkguy]

he's not a member of the middle-class elite...and with dark skin, just the sort of Thai the comic-opera generals fear.

I wondered what the soldiers were doing in Siam Square this afternoon with a paint colour chart in one hand, a bullwip in the other and roundup music blaring from their trucks

I suppose the next thing the fascists will do is get the Thai FDA to ban skin whitening cream

I'm surprised that more falangs aren't (apparently) aware of what's going on beneath the surface of everyday life in the city.

I hate to be the one to break this to you but you and your red shirt friends don't have a monopoly on awareness

My point is be sure our Thai friends use precautions and not wind up in a military re-education camp for their own happiness.

I mean it is not like our Thai friends are all buffaloes incapable of making an informed decision by themselves or anything but they do need our superior understanding to guide them on the right path! perhaps someone could set up a Skype relay in Dubai for us to send our messages through to give them more authority?

bkkguy

Surely someone has something to say?

What will expressing our opinions achieve? I had a very long chat about the situation in Thailand with a Thai ex-pat last night, a person who has experienced life outside Thailand through settling in a Western country. In summary: "You will never understand Thailand. You are not Thai. You think too much."

A number of people have posted elsewhere about gay life in Thailand over the last thirty years, but Thai political life over that same time scale is a cycle: democratic government followed by a coup followed by military-imposed government. Repeat. Every single coup has had "Stamp out corruption" as its rationale. Clearly either the Thai Army is completely incapable of stamping out corruption, or that is merely an excuse. Perhaps the answer is that it is both of those.

To assume however that "This time it's different" and that the army really did strike merely to redress Thaksin's corruption shows the truth of the things clever and not so clever people have said about history, in particular "Men learn nothing from history" (Henry Ford). I just laugh when I see the ex-pat community parroting all the Yellow Shirt propaganda about Thaksin, assuming somehow that the Yellow Shirts will do it any differently, let alone any better, as if Thaksin is the first Thai politician ever to be accused of corruption by his political opponents.

What would Thailand be without corruption? One thing's for sure, it wouldn't be Thailand. The Thais love corruption, it's in their DNA. IMHO that's the only opinion worth expressing. A friend of mine has tried to work out all the kick-backs the management of his condo is getting from various service providers when the management on-sells to the occupants, but admits he'll never be completely sure. It's just "This Is Thailand".

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow it will be the same all over again as this excellent commentary makes clear.

[lego]

Surely someone has something to say?

Yes. You will see new incarnations of the same "profound changes" you're seeing now for a long time to come. Eventually, even you will lose your interest and join the ranks of those who are complacent (or "unaware", as you'd probably say).

[Up2U]

.............
Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow it will be the same all over again as this excellent commentary makes clear.

The author could very well be right but my sense is the world, Thai society and culture has changed too much since the last (and previous coups).
Here's another opinion arguing we can't go back:

https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/56755

[bkkguy]

here's a quick game for you, below are quotes from the "About Us" page of the two publications that the two articles linked to above are from - can you guess which belongs to which article?

About Us #1:

?????? is one of the largest and most trusted sources of independent newsgathering, supplying a steady stream of news to its members, international subscribers and commercial customers. ?????? is neither privately owned nor government-funded; instead, as a not-for-profit news cooperative owned by its American newspaper and broadcast members, it can maintain its single-minded focus on newsgathering and its commitment to the highest standards of objective, accurate journalism.

??????тАЩs commitment to independent, comprehensive journalism has deep roots. Founded in 1846, ?????? has covered all the major news events of the past 165 years, providing high-quality, informed reporting of everything from wars and elections to championship games and royal weddings.

About Us #2:

In these days of growing media concentration, ?????? is a proudly independent voice committed to human and civil rights, global peace and environmental sustainability, democracy and equality. By printing the news and ideas the mainstream media won't, ?????? exposes the lies and distortions of the power brokers and helps us to better understand the world around us.

??????, launched in 1990 by progressive activists to present the views excluded by the big business media, is now Australia's leading source of local, national and international news, analysis, and discussion and debate to strengthen the anti-capitalist movements.

it is always useful to be exposed to a broad range of opinions and on the Internet that can be done quite easily, but there is no point in accepting all opinions indiscriminately, so the problem is separating the wheat from the chaff, and for most people - including me - that often comes down to selecting sources that support your existing point of view, but it is hopefully more analytical than just that

anyway, no points for guessing which article I found more astute in its analysis, kommentariat and Up2U have already indicated their preferences, and the preferences of a few other posters here should not be that hard to guess either

bkkguy

[Up2U]

Bkkguy, you are so perceptive, the link clearly says greenleft.org and the author says he belongs to the socialist group left turn organization and lives in exile since the 2006 coup. Full disclosure. I have also posted Mr. Heinecke's open letter and David Streckfuss rebuttal so readers get both sides. If you chose to get your news spoon fed, censored,from Thai tv, from publications with a long history of bias then you are living in the right city and it shows on how you think and what you post. I always read and try to understand all sides of complex issues.

[fountainhall]

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow it will be the same all over again as this excellent commentary makes clear.

A lot in that commentary has been aired before, but some key points tend to get forgotten.

"Thais have never learned about democracy, never really compared democracy with dictatorship to see which is better," he says. "They just look at what's in front of them and see a hero, but a hero never lasts long" . . .

The traditional Hindu-Buddhist culture - emphasizing deference to authority in a hierarchical system, acceptance of one's fate and avoidance of confrontation - runs against emerging individualism, egalitarianism and rule of law. The old values also breed power brokers who dole out rewards to subordinates whose loyalty flows to them rather than to state institutions.

"Patronage relations dominate all aspects of Thai society and have a crippling effect on democratic institutions and political culture," said Marc Saxer of the Friedrich-Ebert Stiftung, a German foundation promoting democracy. "Never mind the democratic facade, key decisions are made by a network of patrons in the backroom."

I cannot imagine what it is like not to have many of the freedoms I enjoy. But I grew up in a country which went through many centuries of democratic development and where universal one-man-one-vote was introduced only in 1948. In Australia it was only in 1962. Across the pond, America was founded on the very basis of individual freedoms and every American takes these absolutely for granted. Yet one-man-one-vote was only achieved in 1965.

Much of Asia has millennia of different forms of non-democratic autocratic rule where individualism has been actively discouraged. The group takes absolute precedence. As recent events in the Middle East are showing, you cannot suddenly impose democracy without spending time first putting in place the various democratic institutions that will make democracy flourish. That only results in the "democratic facade" referred to above. Is Iraq a democracy? Libya? Egypt? Similarly real checks and balances need to be in place before you have a chance of getting rid of the hierarchical system and old values.

As westerners with our freedoms, we think we can place ourselves in the minds of Thais. We cannot. Thai logic is totally different from almost any other I have encountered and I still fail to understand it. We can promote our own values and project them on to the Thais. In the end, though, the Thais will find their own solutions without paying too much attention to the outside world.