New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion

There's a very interesting article about Irish independence - and why Salmond has stopped citing it as a model for Scotland -n a recent New Stattesman. In summary, the Irish aiming for self-rule were desperate to get out before the UK introduced broad reform measures for social benefits http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics ... l-time-low

[quote=scottish-guy]It's jaw-dropping that someone who (presumably) originates from Australia - a former colony and Dominion of the UK which transformed itself into a very successful Independent sovereign state - makes an attack on the principle of self-determination.

It's the UK state we want rid of.

All these 19th century mentalities still wittering on about the nation state. All of that should have been killed off by the First World War whose centenary we "celebrate" this year. But we still have pathetic creatures ranting about their little piece of turf and its importance. No better than Suthep and Thaksin.

[/quote:2ksj4n9q]An interesting use of "the end justifies the means" argument.

[scottish-guy]

Well, Kommie, I read the "very interesting article" and I simply can not agree with your "summary" of it at all. All I took out of it was that Ireland was, at the point of Independence, so keen to escape from the UK that a cut in public spending was a price well worth paying. Either I missed something or you hallucinated something.

Further, the fact that the author (John Bew) lumps Norway (whose central bank is struggling to handle their enormous wealth fund) in with Ireland and Iceland, made me choke on my porridge. After a howler like that, I trust you'll forgive me if I decline to be as interested in his opinions as you obviously are.

Well, Kommie ... I trust you'll forgive me if I decline to be as interested in his opinions as you obviously are.

Oh c'mon Scotty, don't you realise that we're all here just to kick you in the ghoulies under that kilt of yours? And it's going to be even more fun when the referendum fails and you're down on the ground? I've always believed in kicking a man when he's down.

[scottish-guy]

Well, Kommie - we don't know what the referendum result will be, do we? Talk is cheap as they say

All we know is that after 2 years of solid scaremongering from the NO camp, polling for a die-hard LABOUR/UNIONIST newspaper has the YES vote is at its highest level yet:

YES 45% NO 55%

So, the first thing to note is that the 30% NO lead has vanished like snow off a dyke.
The momentum is all one-way, and a 5% swing in 6 months will be more than enough for victory (since YES supporters are far more likely to actually vote than NO supporters).

Time will tell, one way or another.

:ymparty:


PS: I've always found that the kind of person who "kicks a man when he's down" is invariably the kind of person who didn't have the balls to kick him when he was standing.

So, the first thing to note is that the 30% NO lead has vanished like snow off a dyke.

Lesbians everywhere will find this offensive.

I've always found that the kind of person who "kicks a man when he's down" is invariably the kind of person who didn't have the balls to kick him when he was standing.

Oh I've never claimed any desire to be a hero, merely a winner.

[scottish-guy]

So, the first thing to note is that the 30% NO lead has vanished like snow off a dyke.

Lesbians everywhere will find this offensive...

Only those who are cocaine addicts!

:ymdevil:

[thaiguest]

There's a very interesting article about Irish independence - and why Salmond has stopped citing it as a model for Scotland -n a recent New Stattesman. In summary, the Irish aiming for self-rule were desperate to get out before the UK introduced broad reform measures for social benefits http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics ... l-time-low

The newstatesman link has an interesting take on Irish independence I have to say. Needs further debate but interesting.

The irony is that the country that has retained its native language most successfully-Wales- and thereby the essence of its culture- has given up on the strident nationalism of the 60's and 70's and seems quiet content living cheek by jowl with Mother England.

The gaelic language of the Scots (the original name for the Irish) is on the verge of extinction in the native country ( "independent" Ireland) and in west and insular "Scotland" to which the Irish gave the name,

To me the lynchpin of culture and identity is language. Wales has approx 1 million native speakers. Scotland and Ireland can now claim approx. 200,000 native gaelic/gallic speakers at best.

The decline of a language is a complex process I know but the least that can be said is that independence alone has not saved the Irish language-the 3rd. oldest written language in western Europe after Greek and Latin.

The truth can be bitter.

[scottish-guy]

....The truth can be bitter....

Indeed it can - and the truth is that whilst the number of older Scots Gaelic speakers are in decline due to centuries of suppression by successive Unionist governments, there has been, (due to money invested by the SNP-led Scottish Govt), a small but steady rise in the number of Gaelic speakers under 20.

What has to be understood is that whereas in Wales there has long been a promotion of the Welsh language, e.g. with dual-language road/public signage and a Welsh Language TV channel since 1982 - in Scotland, Gaelic has been deliberately suppressed by the Unionists, was actually banned after 1745 (alongside mass-clearance of the native speakers from their land), was not taught in schools (in fact was actively discouraged) - and a Scots Gaelic TV Channel did not arrive until 5 yrs ago.

To give you an idea of how suppressed Scottish identity has been, I imagine you'd find it quite astonishing that it is only since the SNP victory in 2007, that Scottish History was restored as a formal subject within the national school curriculum!! Prior to that, Scottish schoolchildren were taught more about the Battle of Hastings than the Battle of Stirling Bridge.

Scots Gaelic is never going to be a majority language in Scotland - but at least now there are increased opportunities to learn and develop it amongst those who are interested, and with the unstoppable progress towards independence there has been and will continue to be a re-flourishing of Scottish identity and culture.

http://nationalcollective.com/

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Regarding the views of Paul Bew.
He is a respected historian in Queens University in Belfast, but he is also, as is well known, a staunch Ulster Unionist. He was a close adviser to David Trimble in the run-up to the Good Friday Agreeement, and he is still a UUP supporter I believe (and actually he writes more often for the Spectator than the New Statesman).
Not saying that being a Unionist his views should be ignored, but his biases should be kept in mind.
The Ulster Unionists are in a state of horror at the thought of Scottish independence as (out of the four UK regions)they are culturally closer to Scotland than England. They worry, I think, that Scottish independence would create the suggestion that as the two major cultural groups in Norther Ireland look to southern Ireland and the Scotland respectively, why is NI in a Union with the London govt. rather than Edinburgh or Dublin?