Toodle-oo then.
If I pass any "free loading scumbags" I'll give them your regards.
:hello2:
Toodle-oo then.
If I pass any "free loading scumbags" I'll give them your regards.
:hello2:
U and the catalans are trhe same, selfish!!!! oh I'm rich so lets dump the poor cousins across the border, so much for the EU and all that crap. True colours do shine through after all.
Well you are entitled to your opinion Latintopxxx - but I see it differently - I see it more as an issue of democracy and social justice.
On democracy - in my entire adult life Scotland has had the Government it voted for only TWICE - on every other occasion (5 times) a Conservative Government has been forced on us by English votes. No more!
Independence ensures Scotland always gets the Government she votes for.
On social justice - after 300 years of being told we are "better together" in the UK:
Men in some areas of Glasgow die sooner than if they lived in the Gaza strip!
Meanwhile in Kensington and Chelsea, men live to 82 years of age - just under an extra 30 years over some areas of the East End of Glasgow (54yrs). And guess who is generously allowed to contribute to the state pensions of these extended-life pensioners - workers who will never see their state pension or will be lucky to get if for a few paltry years. No more!
The UN says we have the most unequal society in Western Europe - as unequal as Nigeria and worse than Ethiopia. No more!
We have child poverty rates of 51% in Glasgow Springburn. No more!
Meanwhile all taxation and revenues flow from Scotland to the UK Exchequer - and less comes back than we pay in. No more!
So, I think we have been far from selfish - I think we have been very generous - but now it's time to stand on our own two feet and use the wealth of Scotland for the benefit of the Scottish people for a change.
As far the Catalans - well, I know about as much about their situation as you obviously do about the Scots - but I understand that polls show +80% want a Referendum and Madrid is denying them one. Maybe you should ask the Spanish Government if they understand the meaning of democracy.
[youtube:1a6bhsxm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRQkKiFQIqw[/youtube:1a6bhsxm]
And what about the Basques, latintop?
Hitchhiking's more of a challenge on the road less travelled.
I don't think he wears them Joe
Scottish Guy verses Timmberty :old: . It's like watching a punch up between a heavyweight boxer and a girl guide. Pick on someone your own (intellectual) size Scotty.
As for independence. Impossible to say exactly what will and won't happen. It's unlikely to be the utopia you describe but nor will it be disasterous. It will almost certainly be fine, just like most other western countries.
Also, please remember that England was a world power long before Scotland unwillingly joined the party and will continue to be so long after you have left, if you choose to do so. You can be pro-independence without resorting to anti-Englishness.
The oil reserves are not proven and should not be counted upon in any future financial calculations. What is more, some of the figures you quote are wildly innacurate. This is from The Daily telegraph dated 30 Aug 2011.
In Scotland, the Government spent ┬г10,212 per person on average last year тАУ ┬г1,624 more than in England.
The revelation prompted calls last night for Ministers to review ScotlandтАЩs controversial funding formula, which sees families south of the border forced to subsidise more generous public services enjoyed by their Scottish counterparts.
The figures reveal that the gulf in spending rose by more than 15 per cent last year, and the gap is expected to widen further over the next four years.
Scots are entitled to a range of publicly-funded services free of charge including university tuition, long term elderly care and prescriptions, while English families incur fees for the same services.
It costs every family south of the border around ┬г420 a year to subsidise these services.
It isn't all going to be wine and roses Scotty, but in your heart, I'm sure you already know that.
Hi Arsenal
Well, I don't think we shall ever actually agree - but I'm dismayed you think that anything I have said on this thread is "anti-English", as I don't believe I have said anything that remotely falls into that category.
As you rightly point out there can be no certainty over future events. The UK Government can't tell us what will happen in the future and neither can any Scottish Government. They irony of this though is the constant Unionist demands (within Scotland) for "certainty" when they themselves can give none.
Scotland has never had any pretensions of being a "world power" and that is why one of the first acts of an Independent Scotland will be to kick out the nuclear weapons of mass destruction placed on the Clyde by the UK Government (and that's not anti-English, that's just stating a fact), and place a constitutional ban on the future siting of such weapons (highly unlikely anyway). Now, if only the UK had similarly abandoned her pretensions, we would not have been embroiled in illegal wars recently.
As for figures - well we can bandy them about all day but all the ones I have quoted come from the OECD, so they are unbiased. You mention specifically future oil revenues and I would (respectfully) advise you to be very careful about accepting UK Govt figures on this as they have been proven to have consistently, deliberately, and systematically LIED about oil reserves, revenues, and forecasts since the 1970s - but don't take my word for it and certainly don't take the Daily Telegraph's word for it :
http://news168.co.uk/index/healey-ad...out-oil-wealth
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...mer-chancellor
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...-oil-1-2937003
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...nce-oil-healey
You may also like to read the UK Govt report by Professor Gavin McCrone (a leading UK Govt economist) prepared in the 70's and suppressed for almost 40 years by the UK Govt until the SNP forced its release under FOI legislation.
http://www.oilofscotland.org/Mccrone...tishOffice.pdf
Here is the reason it was suppressed - whilst the Tory Govt of the day was telling us the Oil was already running out (40 yrs ago) MrCrone predicted that North sea oil revenue would have given an independent Scotland one of the "hardest currencies in Europe with the exception of the Norwegian kronor" and an "almost perpetual" large tax surplus that would be so large as to be "embarrassing", making Scotland "as rich as Switzerland". On this basis, it went on to say that officials advised government ministers on how to take "the wind out of the SNP sails". The incoming Labour administration classified the document as secret over fears it could give a further boost to the SNP's policy of Scottish independence.
Ok, that's historical - but the lying has never stopped, it continues to this day (only it's a little more sophisticated now). For example when it comes to the value and volume of North Sea oil. The oil price forecasts currently used to downplay the future value of the oil reserves and revenues are based on projections from the UK Office of Budget Responsibility. These forecasts are well below the current price and also far less than is being predicted even by the UK Government and international agencies.тАк
The OBR are currently forecasting a price of $92 per barrel of oil in 2017. But other forecasts for that year see WestminsterтАЩs Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) predict around $130 a barrel, and the OECD is expecting $150 or more per barrel.тАк Meanwhile investment in the North Sea reaches record levels - so what does that tell you? It tells me that International energy giants (who do not have a political axe to grind) certainly do not invest at record levels in a diminishing asset. Fact is there is at least 50 years of oil reserves left and I would far rather take the OECD's forecasts before figures from a Government which has been proven to have lied for 40 years. I also find it curious that we are told that Scotland "must not rely" on oil revenues. I would counter this by saying "Isn't that exactly what the UK govt is currently doing do underwrite foreign debts of FOUR TIMES GDP?" How come is perfectly OK for the UK Govt to rely on oil revenues but somehow Scotland should not take account of them?
Now, none of that information I've given you is intended to be "anti - English" and I am personally not "anti - English" myself - I have many friends who know English people (that was a wee joke!). What I am is anti -UK and I reserve my worst disdain not for the English but for those Scottish MPs who have allowed their own vested interests to come before the wellbeing of their country. They are so used to lying they don't even think about it any more.
Now, let's move on to those expenditure figures - yes, more is spent per head Scotland - and that is widely publicised, but what is not publicised and what you need to dig to find out is that more is also raised per head. In fact, for each of the last 30 years, Scotland has been a net contributor to the UK - getting back less than she contributes. I don't have a problem with that - I only have a problem when people are misled into thinking it's the other way round. Similarly I also have a little bit of a problem when people in England (yes, I said it!) complain about free prescriptions, free personal care, free University tuition fees etc - IT'S OUR MONEY we are spending on these items - out of the block grant we receive from Westminster (less than we pay in remember). If people elsewhere want these things, demand them from your representatives - don't moan and groan at us (infact - moan at Wales, they have free prescriptions too!)
Of course I realise that if Independence comes not everything will be perfect. Scotland will not be transformed into Shangri-La. We will (initially at least) still have some of the worst poverty levels in Europe, the worst health outcomes in Europe. What we will gain is the opportunity to use the wealth of Scotland for the benefit of the people of Scotland. And if we don't take that opportunity, and if instead we vote "No", we will never have the opportunity again and we shall be (and shall deserve to be) the laughing stock not only of Europe but of the World - "all talk and no kilts"
:hello2:
this is what i love about you arsenal, you tell him what a great interlect he is, then disagree with everything he says.Originally Posted by arsenal
if i wanted an intellectual conversation i wouldnt bother having it on a gaythailand forum. forums like this are for sharing things about gay thailand etc etc. even if you've not been here for 2 years you can look on the net for a bar showing a game of football and get called a legend by someone who couldnt be bothered to do it themself.
but i guess i could do what you did and have a look at a few different websites about scotland, rip it off and call myself clever.
but id rather not, cause it just dont impress anyone other than a s..o like you.
i do wonder tho have they already had the vote ? i would have thought someone as clever as you wouldnt be saying its not going to be all wine and roses would atleast wait until the ballot boxes have been filled and emptied.
i dont care one way or the other as to how the vote goes, but if they dont get independence i do look forward to scotty post on the subject.
one thing i must point out .. grrr i said i wouldnt ..
scotty you say you want to see scottish money spent on scottish people.. what a good idea, do tell me then why you think english people who want to see english money spent on english people are racists when they object to billions of english tax payers money being spend on benifits for eastern europeans, somalians etc etc. many of whom shouldnt even be in the country.
many of whom wouldnt be the the country is it wasnt for the bleeding hearts who think leaving a cat behind would deprive them of their human rights. an extreme example maybe, but it happened.
Thats the trouble with some people - they only see what they want to see.
Because I'm not a racist, I very deliberately did NOT post (as you allege) that I wanted Scottish money to be spent on Scottish people. That would indeed be a racist comment, and one I would therefore never make.
What I actually posted was:
"The people of Scotland" is everyone who lives here - irrespective of their race, creed, or colour.
And yet you invite comparison with what YOU posted - so let's compare what I have posted with what YOU have posted:
You then compound it with:
And you are seriously trying to say that's the same as I posted? I'm afraid it's quite a different message altogether, a quite sinister one.
Now go away and get more advice on what to say next - and please try to provide something that stands up to scrutiny next time.
:occasion9:
sorry i dont need advice on what to say, i say what i mean... and i also say it so it is what i mean it to mean.
i dont feel the need to say somethng that can be interpretated anyway you like.
just who are the people of scotland ? anyone who lives in scotland .. so you must then agree that any scottish people, say someone like sean connery, who doesnt live in scotland, so in your eyes is no longer a person of scotland, has no right to vote for independence as he would like to, and seems to think he has the right to do so?
or can someone who you claim to be a non person of scotland have the right to vote ?
and you are racist, lets not forget you are anti u.k. so that makes you anti english, welsh and n.irish.
we can all jabba shyte and pick out bits to change around, like you say those lying politicians do it without even having to think about it.
but i guess being anti u.k. isnt the same as being anti anything cause thats not really what you said, even tho you did say it, its not what you meant to say, even tho you did say it.
vote scotty, the party that doesnt know its arse from its elbow.
oh before i forget, i also said i wasnt over keen on tax payers money going to african schools, now after you slagged me off for saying that, am i right in thinking you have now changed your mind, as im sure the scottish tax payers money which you want to be used for the people of scotland, would have no place being sent to africa!!
the joy of words huh, either say what you mean or dont bother.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote