Officials discuss when a work permit is required

[Beachlover]

Found this interesting ThaiVisa article on Baht-Stop about foreigners working in Thailand.

It's from a seminar where officials from the local labour office were interviewed over when and under what circumstances work permits were required by foreigners.

It's interesting but some of it still sounds vague...

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473 ... ent-talks/

This is the legal definition of work they use:

the legal definition of work that is used by the Labor Department; "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits".

Additionally Khun Rhuchuchai pointed out that beyond the application, is the intent. If itтАЩs clear there is intent to work with a goal to profit from that labor, either on the part of the foreigner or of the business, then that is also illegal.

This seems to take care of establishments like The Venue who get overseas performers in sometimes:

A key question that was asked was in regard to performers who wish to perform a one off show for charity or otherwise. He said there is a temporary permit to work for not longer than 15 days, free from his office and considered on a case by case basis. But, he pointed out several times, you must apply for it. He reiterated that he supports those who wish to perform legally, and will be happy to approve such applications for these kinds of shows once applied for and considered on a case by case basis. Anything over the 15 days requires a legal work permit, which requires a sponsoring business or charitable organization.

Volunteer work:

Volunteer work, he pointed out, requires a work permit, however, many charities are looking for volunteers and are willing to sponsor people and he suggested that he could offer guidance to those interested in such a work permit. For those who wish to work at multiple organizations, he pointed out that that initial work permit is required but it is possible to add an employer or job to the work permit once its issued. This would also apply to musicians who wish to play at different venues.

He noted that the office offers different periods of work permits, from a year for 3,100 baht to 6 months for 1,550 baht and 1-3 months for 750 baht.

Freelance work (some posters on ThaiVisa dispute this):

He added that there is no тАЬfreelanceтАЭ work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company.

This seems to allude to "specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets":

when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

This is interesting. When I visit Thailand, I usually continue managing the work of my staff (in Australia) and doing work for Australian clients. I do this remotely, from my laptop. I don't think this is much different from thousands of other executives who action their e-mails and keep in touch with their office while holidaying in Thailand.

It brings up a few questions...

Can I assume he's referring to specialists located INSIDE Thailand "offering advice for overseas clients" or is that incorrect?

What is the significance of the specific wording "offering advice". Advisory is part of what I do for clients but there's a lot of document generation and such too. Does the policy he describes distinguish between the two or does it refer to any sort of knowledge work?

I wonder if his comment basically applies for any tourists who does work for overseas clients (no involvement of local labour or local clients whatsoever) while in Thailand. Where is the line drawn?

I'm not too bothered as I'm only ever in Thailand for short periods of time - sometimes less than week, occasionally up to 2-3 weeks - but it's nice to know where you stand.

I'm guessing this is what small businesses do:

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

Read all: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473 ... ent-talks/

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[netrix]

i've looked into this quite a bit. i travel a lot and speak in business
seminars with local attendees throughout SE Asia and am required
to have a visa and short term work permit when travelling for business.
But when I telecommute, as many do, and neither my employees/partners
nor my clients are in Thailand, and my business is not based in Thailand
then no permit is required. If your business is profiting from being
physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they
rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave
away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need
a permit in Thailand.

Hi,

You can produce as many documents as you like in Thailand, it does not matter. If you end up on their radar and they want something from you, any and all arguments will be rebuffed and documentation will be discarded and/or ignored.

Always better to come to an accommodation with them where everyone is happy, especially them, be it having your work permit organised by an offshoot company or friend of the Immigration officer or by some other means.

The very last thing you want to be doing with Immigaration, and this applies to everybody, is to quote law or turn up with a lawyer and get their back up. It doesn't matter to them what regulations appear on websites or in some press release from Bangkok.

They are a law unto themselves and always have been.

..I could slave
away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need
a permit in Thailand.

Surely you can only work at sex chat for a few hours at a time before either laryngitis or white-finger syndrome sets in?

:sign5:

The very last thing you want to be doing with Immigaration, and this applies to everybody, is to quote law or turn up with a lawyer and get their back up. It doesn't matter to them what regulations appear on websites or in some press release from Bangkok.

I have always been to immigration with my lawyer and he has been excellent at smoothing the path.
He knows many of the officials, knows the procedures, fills in the forms for me, jumps the queue, translates the official documents, hands over the money and gets the job done in one tenth of the time it would take me on my own.
I just sit there and he does what he's paid for. I would never consider going to immigration without the lawyer.

The very last thing you want to be doing with Immigaration, and this applies to everybody, is to quote law or turn up with a lawyer and get their back up. It doesn't matter to them what regulations appear on websites or in some press release from Bangkok.

I have always been to immigration with my lawyer and he has been excellent at smoothing the path.
He knows many of the officials, knows the procedures, fills in the forms for me, jumps the queue, translates the official documents, hands over the money and gets the job done in one tenth of the time it would take me on my own.
I just sit there and he does what he's paid for. I would never consider going to immigration without the lawyer.

OK then,

I was actually referring to people who had an issue or a problem thinking they could march down with a lawyer, not unusual in democratic Countries, and get their legal rights or resolve a problem created for them by Immigration by showing law books or quoting rules and regulations.

For example, attempting to challenge them, as some do, just because you have right on your side. The main problem is the sweeping and wide ranging powers they have, which are cloaked in ambiguity.

I wan't referring to ' run of the mill ' stuff, if I didn't make that point clear.

[thonglor55]

I wasn't referring to ' run of the mill ' stuff, if I didn't make that point clear.

It was abundantly clear to me but there's always someone who wants to quote their own experience and run off at the mouth as if what they're saying is germane to what you're writing about. My reading of the article was that if they wish the Immigration authorities will apply a very broad brush - if you are working and you are in Thailand then you need a work permit. There is no nexus required between the work being done, the location of the customer, and being in Thailand. You just have to be in Thailand, and you have to be actively (ie. working, not through investments) producing an income. What those who spout about "I'd just go to Immigration with my lawyer and he'd sort them out" macho approach don't realise is that the rule of law doesn't apply in Thailand as a matter of course. It's how the particular official decides on the day (based on who knows what - his indigestion maybe or whether his wife or girlfriend put out the night before, or his xenophobia about foreigners, or the clothes you're wearing or whether your bribe (sorry, tea money) is big enough, or whether he's being bloody minded just for the hell of it), whether the rules apply, how they apply, and when they apply. If you don't "get" that then you simply don't understand Thailand.

Moreover, the article confirms, if you pursue an activity in Thailand that could be deemed to be working even though you receive no money or other benefit, you must have a permit. This includes activities as varied as helping out at an AIDS hospice, teaching English to street kids, playing the piano for a singalong in the bar, or throwing on a frock and appearing on stage. Given the hostility or envy of some people towards others, always assume that some kind soul will bring your activities to the notice of the Immigration Department.

[Beachlover]

But when I telecommute, as many do, and neither my employees/partners nor my clients are in Thailand, and my business is not based in Thailand then no permit is required. If your business is profiting from being physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need a permit in Thailand.

That's awesome. Thanks for confirming this, Netrix... nice to have it from someone who's looked into it more.

You can produce as many documents as you like in Thailand, it does not matter. If you end up on their radar and they want something from you, any and all arguments will be rebuffed and documentation will be discarded and/or ignored... They are a law unto themselves and always have been.

Yes, as is the case in many developing countries with uncertain legal frameworks - if you piss off the wrong people or someone's having a bad day it can work against you.

[thonglor55]

But when I telecommute, as many do, and neither my employees/partners nor my clients are in Thailand, and my business is not based in Thailand then no permit is required. If your business is profiting from being physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need a permit in Thailand.

That's awesome. Thanks for confirming this, Netrix... nice to have it from someone who's looked into it more.

And doesn't know what they're talking about - but that's never stopped Beachlover either.

I wasn't referring to ' run of the mill ' stuff, if I didn't make that point clear.

It was abundantly clear to me but there's always someone who wants to quote their own experience and run off at the mouth as if what they're saying is germane to what you're writing about. My reading of the article was that if they wish the Immigration authorities will apply a very broad brush - if you are working and you are in Thailand then you need a work permit. There is no nexus required between the work being done, the location of the customer, and being in Thailand. You just have to be in Thailand, and you have to be actively (ie. working, not through investments) producing an income. What those who spout about "I'd just go to Immigration with my lawyer and he'd sort them out" macho approach don't realise is that the rule of law doesn't apply in Thailand as a matter of course. It's how the particular official decides on the day (based on who knows what - his indigestion maybe or whether his wife or girlfriend put out the night before, or his xenophobia about foreigners, or the clothes you're wearing or whether your bribe (sorry, tea money) is big enough, or whether he's being bloody minded just for the hell of it), whether the rules apply, how they apply, and when they apply. If you don't "get" that then you simply don't understand Thailand.

Moreover, the article confirms, if you pursue an activity in Thailand that could be deemed to be working even though you receive no money or other benefit, you must have a permit. This includes activities as varied as helping out at an AIDS hospice, teaching English to street kids, playing the piano for a singalong in the bar, or throwing on a frock and appearing on stage. Given the hostility or envy of some people towards others, always assume that some kind soul will bring your activities to the notice of the Immigration Department.

Hi,


Absolutely spot on what I was trying to get across.