Another bunch just like the Scottish Nationalists and The Brexiteers
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014
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Another bunch just like the Scottish Nationalists and The Brexiteers
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014
Don't forget Sinn Fein!
They're heading towards civil war if they don't pull back.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41498685
Not in this case. Catalan has it own language, fought against Franco, has had a long time drive for independence, and the vote was not even close.
I am sure most member on SGT have been in both Barcelona and Madrid. Going from Madrid to Barcelona felt like leaving Spain and entering the rest of Europe.
At least that is the way I felt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia
No. Here is different story, what just is shown by BBC like "an another story".
There are only about 1/3 of Catalans in the population of Catalonia.
Reason is economical: Catalonia produces around 25% of Spanish GDP while is only 6% of territory and about 15% of population.
Another thread which proves the usual SGT "experts" actually know fuck all about anything
I am sure that Scottish agrees with me in comparing the way the National governments (UK and Spain) behaved. That the UK government has shown itself to be extremely fair minded in allowing a free vote whilst the Spanish organised a right wing style police crackdown.
"Allowing"?
Provided the "people" demonstrate a desire via the ballot box, a referendum on Independence is not the UK Government's to deny - in 2014 or now.
Scots entered this Union voluntarily and we shall leave if and whenever it suits us.
For the avoidance of doubt - the same goes for the English.
The situation in our 2014 Referendum is not comparable with the Spanish situation at all. "Our" Referendum was agreed whereas the whole problem in Spain is that the Spantish Govt would not agree.
However, now in 2017 the UK Government is currently seeking to block any future Referendum on Independence - despite the fact there is a double-mandate - thus foolishly putting themselves in a worse position than the Spanish Govt.
It therefore remains to be seen how the UK Govt behaves if the Scottish Govt decides to call Indyref2 in defiance of them - and I would not put it past them to behave in exactly the same fashion.
Disingenuous Scottish. But then you know that already.
There is no proviso in the Act of Union that allows Scotland to just up sticks and leave if they think the going gets a bit hard. Exactly what I said, your referendum was agreed by the UK government. The Scottish government does not have the legal right to call a referendum, sovereignty remains with Westminster. And are you expecting a referendum every three years, why not every year or perhaps you should have one monthly until you get the result you want. What about two a day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon just in case people change their minds after an excellent smoked salmon lunch.
You are (as usual) factually wrong - under Scots law sovereignty lies with the people. This was established in the Claim of Right Act of 1689 and reaffirmed in 1998 by the leaders of every political party in Scotland.
We are in a voluntary Union and either party can leave at any time.
Nobody is proposing or has proposed a second referendum in 2017 - so your crap about "every three years" is precisely that and you're making it up as you go along.
Moderators and Head Judges should be seen and not heard
why dont u just leave then...for goodness sake...nobody care about the damp northern half of England ..ooops scotland...anyway...its a economically depressed crime/drug ridden wasteland where the best and brightest have decamped south.
The Act of Union supersedes anything from 1689 and "reafirmation" by anyone does not change that. It's called rule of law, have you heard of it?
ofcourse not...he's too bust gorging himself on the subsidies that the muppets (sorry english) throw across the border
It can be very difficult to translate films but this one seems to have captured the very essence of the intended audience.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...s&pbjreload=10
Good to see you both teaming up to attack me.
Birds of a feather .........
I ain't no expert, but have a personal view, which leans toward the right of self-determination for people who want to "opt out" out the State in which they live. From what I read, the majority of those who voted, want to secede from Spain and become a Republic. But that's the majority of those who voted - I've read only 47% of the population actually voted. I'm open to correction on any of this - these are just my impressions.
So, while the majority of those who actually voted want to leave, the fact that the majority of the electorate DID NOT vote. Which for me, asks the question, do we actually know what the people of Catalunya actually think? I'm not sure I do.
I'm totally open to learning on this one.
A 47% turnout while rubber bullets are being fired at voters, while Police in riot gear bludgeon old women, while voters are dragged along the ground by the hair, while polling stations are forcibly closed and ballot boxes seized is, I'd suggest pretty good in the circumstances.
Nobody forced the Unionists to stay at home (if indeed they did) - equally there's no proof that the result would have been NO had they participated.
You say the majority did not vote and of course you're right - but there was never going to be a 100% turnout even if the Spanish Govt had approved the vote (which they were never going to) so the real question is what turnout would have to have been achieved to overturn what has been widely reported at a 90% YES vote if every one of those extra votes had been NO?
I'm far from a mathematician - but I read somewhere that around another 40% of the electorate would have to have turned out (possible) and every one of them to have voted NO (impossible) in order to change the result. I'm sure someone on this forum can work it out.
But the real issue here is not about YES or NO - it's about people having the right to vote, it's about self-determination which has supposedly been a bedrock principle of democracy since US President Woodrow Wilson championed it at Versailles in 1919.
Shamefully, the EU and her members have chosen to look the other way - as has the UN.
Today, we know Unionists have been bussed into Barcelona from Madrid to fake a rally in support of unity - so who knows how this will end
I totally take your point, SG. The fact remains, as I see it (and this might seem to contradict what I said earlier, but SG's post swayed me) the people of Catalunya have expressed their wishes, and the government of Spain appears to be ignoring that democratic process. That surely can't be right. And for the PM to simply say "we'll ignore this" is hardly democracy?
Did I read somewhere that the majority of people who live in Catalunya are not actually Catalan?
I hear that Cornwall, a place that has it's own language wants to leave The UK and under Scottishs' ideas they should certainly be allowed to do so any time they choose. Referendum on Monday and independent country by Wednesday. Simple? Yes! Cue Scottish hurling insults because that's easier than defending his position.
I loved watching those arrogant catalans getting smacked around by the castilians.....they need to be reminded who the master is...
It also seems that years of poor diet and too much alcohol has taken it's toll on the Scots.
http://m.bbc.com/sport/football/41546717
Better to be genetically small of stature Len, than to be (like yourself) permanently small minded.
I wrote.
" Cue Scottish hurling insults because that's easier than defending his position."
Scottish wrote.
" Better to be genetically small of stature Len, than to be (like yourself) permanently small minded."
Told you. As predictable as a Glaswegian drunk.
If you think that was an insult you dont know me at all Len
:D
Right, make this American spend time figuring out WTF a Glaswegian drunk is predicted to do.:mad:
Sounds like you are both name calling, but back to the subject. If states could vote to succeed from the Union, in America you would be seeing a mass exodus of the progressive American States leaving. Progressives would not be leaving because their anti-Trump feelings per se, but because the progressives I know hate policies that promote racism, lower education standards, poorly distribute the wealth, fail to provide health care to sick people, divide us internally and isolate us internationally. Now, we sort of went out of our way in 1860 to establish that if you do not like something the Nation is doing you, as a state, still do not have the right to break the Union. No, the progressives in America are going to stick it out and hope this nation survives, but I envy Scotland, because they can avoid having to be part of what I see is nothing but an attempt by British racist to keep their little white nation the same old imperialistic crap pot that is used to be. IMHO
Catalan is nothing like Scotland.
PS
Scotty, I knew before I came on the board.
Britain!, an "imperialistic crap pot" Let me tell you that Britain built the greatest ever empire by acting like gentlemen.
And here is yet more proof that those Pictish pixies cannot be allowed out unsupervised by the English.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeI154gaWL4
I have read somewhere that there are 300,000 English people living in rain sodden Scotland.
In the referendum was the vote to leave the union lost by 300,000 votes?
Spain has made it clear that they would veto Scotland's entry to the EU if ever an application arrived from Dun Eadain.
Re. the Catalan Referendum; it was basically a bunch of leavers running around putting plastic boxes into schools with no independent monitoring and no agreement with Madrid.
It was not legitimate in the way that the Scottish Referendum was in my humble opinion.
The Scottish referendum was legitimate while the Catalan one was not. That is correct. Therefore the result of the Scottish one must be honoured by all parties while the Catalan one can be ignored.
but the scot looney independants will keep holding referendums until they get the result they want. Idiots.
I guess the fact that you are humble about this series of ill-informed opinions mitigates your lack of accuracy - but at least you're closer to the facts than Head Judge Len is most of the time, so I give you credit for that!
- #Indyref1 was lost by just under 400,000 votes (not 300,000 as you state)
- 9% of the population identify as English only - which means approx 500,000 in 2014 not 300,000 as you state.
- I don't know if it was your intention to imply that English settlers lost #Indyref1 for Scotland, but I would reject that. There are more than sufficient cringing Scots willing to betray their Country, plus many English settlers are very active in the Independence movement. I'd say they made a significant but not decisive contribution to the result
- The "Spanish veto" is a direct lie peddled by Unionists. Spain's official position (which has been subsequently borne out) was that provided #Indyref1 was legal Spain "would have nothing to say" This has been recently repeated by Spain on the subject of #Indyref2. You can see why that position was and still *is* in their interests
- The Catalan referendum, far from the way you have characterised it, was efficiently organised by the Catalan Govt and local authorities. It was of course the Spanish authorities who disrupted it
- There were international monitors - several UK parliamentarians were involved in that together with experienced monitors from many other countries.
- "Legitimacy" is in the eye of the beholder. Over 20 current UN members asserted their Independence without the agreement of their "parent" State. One you may just have heard of - The United States of America
Quite so, arsenal. Only a true English gentleman could have invented the concentration camp
....and being such a colossal old Boer himself you'd have thought Head Judge Len would have known that!
:yahoo_mini:
I did know it but chose to gloss over it.
Scottish, when you say "the authorities" in Spain I presume you mean the legitimate elected government. Is that who you mean? Cue insults from Scottish because.......
Both "authorities" - Catalan Govt and Spanish National Govt are legitimate and elected - are you losing the plot?
Clearly I meant the Spanish National Govt disrupted the voting - only a cretin would imagine otherwise.
Meanwhile.....
Attachment 5601
I was a bit out in my figures but if anything the real figures confirms me in my opinion.
So there are 500,000 English in Scotland and the Referendum was lost by a margin of 400,000.
I don't think that more than 10% of this Sassanach cohort voted against retaining the Union and I think this will remain the position in future Referenda.
The only hope for breaking the Union will be a larger turnout with a majority of Independence voters making up this group.
Re. Catalonia:
The legitimacy of the Referendum must be questioned because it was organised mostly by the Catexiteers.
They don't deny this-in fact they're proud to tell the world how they took control of the polling centres, hid the boxes and so on.
This 'ownership' of the polling stations would intimidate the other side and no doubt led to a small turnout of pro-Union Catalans.
I would love to see the Catalans get what they want PROVIDED that the true Majority want what they get.
To me this Referendum falls far short on that score in my Humble opinion.
FRM, I admire your interest.....
You suggest the "only hope (in a second indyref) is a higher turnout".
Given that 100% turnout was recorded in some areas and overall it was 85%, I'd suggest there is little scope for a higher turnout.
Where some of the "hope" lies is with the demise of the (2014) >70yo cohort who were simultaneously overwhelmingly NO and the group which provided the highest turnout. YES is leading approx 70/30 amongst the under 30s with no drop off as they progress in age (given that it's only been 3 years).
So it seems likely that constitutional change may be effected partially or substantially by demographics - much like another part of the U.K. which I don't want to bring up again.
There is also hope by virtue of possible future events.
No agreement on Brexit might have a significant impact given that the vote to remain was 62% in Scotland.
Prices in the shops are already going up significantly - rising well ahead of wages - and interest rates are likely to be raised soon.
The U.K. Prime Minister is more of a lame duck that a one-legged mallard and the next in line is a fucking mop-headed buffoon that nobody can stand except the London chattering class.
Moving on to Catalonia - your contention that it was the Independence seekers doing the "intimidation" is the best piece of political spin since Hitler blamed the Commies for setting fire to the Reichstag!
Do you not possess a TV?
:D
Talking of TV - one of the biggest barriers to YES is that save for a single semi-newspaper, the entire mainstream media (including the State Broadcaster, the BBC) is controlled by NO.
Alternative media does a very good job of trying to balance the debate but it simply does not reach much of those 70+ voters who against all the evidence still believe that the media tells the truth (and especially the BBC)
Scotland Independence.
I must take the point made by a Scot here that other circumstances have changed since the 1st referendum so I have to concede that a different result next time is not solely down to an increased turnout.
If the majority of Scots vote for independence they will get it because unlike the Catalan Referendum it will be a transparent affair agreed to by both governing institutions.
Following on from that E U membership should not be blocked by veto by other states.
However whether it can or not remains to be seen.
Re Catalan Referendum.
It's obvious to all fairminded people that the Spanish police behaved brutally.
But that's a different issue.
Even if they had behaved properly the Referendum was not conducted to the standards of the British/Scottish referendum on all types of criteria IMHO.