Raid on jomtien complex friday 2 nov

I felt with all the experts here on Pattaya ,this would have been reported earlier. But as I realized almost all of them are living overseas or touring other places it may have slipped past them.
Fri night I had dinner in Jomtien and felt like a few drinks before leaving for home.I made my way to Home bar and found a seat upstairs that faced down the soi, with the front view of Venue and the Japanese bar next door and the take away food vans.
They appeared to be a dozen men all wearing black tops hanging round the front on Venue. I thought they were the performers that usually come before 10. Then around the corner came 7/8 vans/trucks that motored all the way through to
Poseiden. I did not have my passport with me and wondered who they were after.
About 8 of the black tops then went into the Venue. They stayed more than 5 minutes and after they came out were joined by a uniformed police officer.
On reflection there was an effort to take photos of all signs both inside and outside of each bar
Next the group went into the Japanese bar . I could not see them talking to the boys.
They had a conference with the officer who was joined by another very tall.
Then into Home bar. They spoke to nobody in the bar but gathered around the bar itself .I saw bar staff holding up what seemed to be time sheets and other items, I could not identify These were photographed as were all signs inside and out, again in detail. I had a conversation with another patron who stated they were more likely immigration rather than local police.
The vans they were in seated 6 in the front, and if a boy was arrested they are handcuffed and tossed into the back.
What annoyed me most was the agression these black tops showed the staff in the bars I wondered if they were expecting kickbacks from boys arrested . The black tops seemed to be calling the shots the officers showing some token control.I had no interest in what was happening at the Poseiden end.

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Originally Posted by lonelywombat;252339...

I felt with all the experts here on Pattaya ,this would have been reported earlier. But as I realized almost all of them are living overseas or touring other places it may have slipped past them...

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Do you think with the regular tightening of Visa regulations that is reported, the latest Proof of Income debacle and now raids on Jomtien (after they have raided Sunee out of all recognition and contributed heavily to its demise) - it may finally dawn on gay ex-pats that neither they nor their lifestyle are actually wanted in Thailand?

Maybe it's time to take the hint and join the rest of us "living overseas or touring other places"?

Rather a sweeping statement from someone who's lack of local knowledge and current experience is commented upon daily. Not once, in 14 years and countless trips have I encountered a single problem to do with being gay. And few to do with anything else either for that matter.

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Originally Posted by arsenal

Rather a sweeping statement from someone who's lack of local knowledge and current experience is commented upon daily. Not once, in 14 years and countless trips have I encountered a single problem to do with being gay. And few to do with anything else either for that matter.

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You like sniping at other people fine but at least get the basics correct.
SG posted a couple of QUESTIONS. See the question marks?
I have no opinion about SGs questions but I do get tired of your constant childish petty comments directed at other posters.

At least get the basics correct - if you disagree with SGs premise and want to point out your OPINION of the question then please do so.
I also suspect you would never apologize for mistaking a question for a statement and if you do need to make childish comments..at least try to be funny and or amusing.

Suggestions noted.

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Originally Posted by scottish-guy

Do you think with the regular tightening of Visa regulations that is reported, the latest Proof of Income debacle and now raids on Jomtien (after they have raided Sunee out of all recognition and contributed heavily to its demise) - it may finally dawn on gay ex-pats that neither they nor their lifestyle are actually wanted in Thailand?

Maybe it's time to take the hint and join the rest of us "living overseas or touring other places"?

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There's a difference between your average local, and a xenophobic military general who seized power in a military coup, and refuses to hold elections.

For example, no idea what the actual numbers are, but Thai military is reporting that 100,000 overstayers have been deported. When I lived in Khon Kaen, I spent on average 80,000 baht/month, so let's say the average is 60,000. That means in total, 6 billion baht/month disappeared from local economies, and I could be wrong, but I'm assuming a majority of that money is same as my income, and came from out of country.

For another example, a new report just came out that states English proficiency has dropped in Thailand. Well, that's what happens when you round up and deport all of the English teachers because immigration laws make it difficult for them to obtain legal employment.

So the military and police may not want us there, but I can promise you the locals do. I'm sure if I showed up in my neighborhood in Khon Kaen again, everyone would be thrilled to see me, and be happy that I'm back and dropping my money in their stores and market stalls again.

Oh matt, just trying to justify your preference to ignore rules.
And look where that got you.

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Originally Posted by scottish-guy

Do you think with the regular tightening of Visa regulations that is reported, the latest Proof of Income debacle and now raids on Jomtien (after they have raided Sunee out of all recognition and contributed heavily to its demise) - it may finally dawn on gay ex-pats that neither they nor their lifestyle are actually wanted in Thailand?

Maybe it's time to take the hint and join the rest of us "living overseas or touring other places"?

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I think that you have got it wrong, again.

Immigration and work visas are the reasons behind raids such as this.

This is completely wrong thinking. Most of the expats you are talking about think they have some kind of purchasing power here in Thailand, but they most certainly do not. The government, for example, receives no benefit from you or me, or probably anyone else on this forum being here. I think they actually appreciate that we are here, but to say that they are going to suffer some kind of loss because many are 'kicked' out is flawed thinking. For most of us, the government receives very little of our money. It goes into the hands of Thais who do not pay taxes - our landlords (I own my house, so we paid property tax once when we bought and no taxes ever again), bars that pay no VAT, food stalls that pay no VAT, we make no contributions to the social security fund, pay no income taxes, and the list goes on. Now, the ex-pats that work pay taxes, but as Neddy points out, these are not the people that immigration is targeting.

So - where are all the Thais who depend on thousands of ex-pats for their money? They are going to actually get a job where they pay taxes! Thailand has one of the lowest unemployment rates anywhere in the world. There are real job openings in almost any city in this country. They simply would need to go and start working at a job where they actually contributed something to the economy. In fact, there are many economists that believe Thailand is operating on a false economy to begin with - more than half the country receives their money 'off the books'. By kicking all of the illegals (probably some of the people reading this forum are included in that), the country would probably actually receive an unintended financial benefit. Also - don't forget that legitimate tourists are more than welcome here. They come in droves, spend money every day for a week or two, and go home. Thailand embraces that and will continue to do so. Many of the expats I know of who live here are so cheap that they spend less money in a month than the average Western tourist spends in a night out on the town. Just look at some of the trip reports from our fellow forum members who come here a few times a year as a tourist - such as A447 - Now, they are putting a shit load of money into non-working Thai's pockets and will continue to do so. The rest of who live here - we spend a fraction of that and think we are somehow owed something.

We need to stop thinking that we are some kind of 'god' in the eyes of the Thai government. You mentioned you spent 80,000 baht a month when you were in Khon Kaen. Well - good for you - but, that is a drop in the bucket compared to my Thai Neighbors. We have business people, stock investors, the president of a university, direct marketing professionals, and more who are earning many times what you do. Why are we so special? Do not think for a moment that my neighborhood is the exception. There are many just like it around Khon Kaen, and Bangkok alone is filled with hundreds of thousands of Thai's who directly contribute to the Thai government in ways that we never even begin to approach. They would actually laugh at such a small amount that you mention here. There are over a thousand American expats in Bangkok alone who earn in excess of 300,000 baht a month. They pay taxes. These are the ones that actually contribute to the Thai economy and they will have no problem staying here. There are thousands more who live here on investment visa. They invest more than 10 million baht on a regular basis. How does that compare to your 80,000 baht? I am not harping on you necessarily - but this is an argument I hear from expats on a regular basis. We think we are so rich and that Thai officials are so poor, stupid, and idiotic. The opposite is actually true. Our money pales in comparison to what it takes to actually run this country, so why would they care about your 80,000 baht a month, 95% of which they probably never see anyway?

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Originally Posted by cdnmatt

There's a difference between your average local, and a xenophobic military general who seized power in a military coup, and refuses to hold elections.

For example, no idea what the actual numbers are, but Thai military is reporting that 100,000 overstayers have been deported. When I lived in Khon Kaen, I spent on average 80,000 baht/month, so let's say the average is 60,000. That means in total, 6 billion baht/month disappeared from local economies, and I could be wrong, but I'm assuming a majority of that money is same as my income, and came from out of country.

For another example, a new report just came out that states English proficiency has dropped in Thailand. Well, that's what happens when you round up and deport all of the English teachers because immigration laws make it difficult for them to obtain legal employment.

So the military and police may not want us there, but I can promise you the locals do. I'm sure if I showed up in my neighborhood in Khon Kaen again, everyone would be thrilled to see me, and be happy that I'm back and dropping my money in their stores and market stalls again.

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Spot on kkjason. Thanks for the interesting analysis.

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" ... many economists that believe Thailand is operating on a false economy to begin with - more than half the country receives their money 'off the books' ... "

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I can personally vouch for at least this portion of your post: My partner has a Tour/Taxi business as well as morphing into a motocycle taxi dude when things are slow (i.e. the infamous 'Low Season'). Put all that together and he makes a very good monthly salary.
Does he file income taxes? ... not a chance. No one does at that level, and Thailand is chock-a-block full of small businesses just like him.

There is an income tax in Thailand but it becomes an issue for Thais only at a certain income level, which is relatively high.

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Originally Posted by kkjason

This is completely wrong thinking. Most of the expats you are talking about think they have some kind of purchasing power here in Thailand, but they most certainly do not. The government, for example, receives no benefit from you or me, or probably anyone else on this forum being here. I think they actually appreciate that we are here, but to say that they are going to suffer some kind of loss because many are 'kicked' out is flawed thinking.

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That was up to the Thai government. For another example, do you have any idea of how easy it would have been for the Thai government to turn Chiang Mai into one of the world's tech hubs? There were probably 5000 - 10,000 tech guys like me in Chiang Mai before, so all the skills and personnel were there. That's why I was saying for years I wanted to move to Chiang Mai -- because although a little under ground, it had a huge tech community.

All the Thai government had to do was relax their immigration laws a bit, and maybe grant a new VISA classification for self employed individuals such as myself who can prove a certain amount of income, and that income comes from our of country. I would have happily paid taxes in exchange for a VISA, as I'm sure thousands of others would have. Then upon being given the freedom to operate, you'd have seen myself and thousands of others renting office space, offering training courses, hiring locals, and so son. Me and thousands of others like me could have transformed Chiang Mai into a tech hub.

The government could have just turned the thousands of us into lawful taxpayers, while we worked hard and created jobs, spent income earned from outside in the country, etc. But nope, the current military dictatorship went and deported all the tech guys instead, so I guess so much for that idea.

So where are you now? In some SE Asian country in which you have not yet broken their laws?

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Originally Posted by Smiles

Spot on kkjason. Thanks for the interesting analysis.

There is an income tax in Thailand but it becomes an issue for Thais only at a certain income level, which is relatively high.

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There is also a VAT (value added tax) that is charged by legitimate businesses.

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Originally Posted by neddy3

...I think that you have got it wrong, again...

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How does one "get it wrong" by asking a question?

Why not just offer your answer without disparaging the questioner?

Because you didn't just ask a question.
You spelt out a scenario to explain why the raid took place.

A question mark indicates a question has been asked rather than a statement having been made. I think you'll find Kittyboy made that point a few posts ago.

And even if it had spelled out a scenario (as you allege) you have absolutely no basis on which to announce "you got it wrong, again" other than your own differing opinion - unless of course you have something in writing from the Head of the Thai Police/Immigration Dept telling you why they raided these premises or can produce some kind of statement from TAT saying how they just welcome elderly gay sex tourists and their dissolute lifestyles.

Now if you and Francois would be kind enough to put me on "ignore" I'd appreciate it - it will save you both being subjected to my "wrong" opinions ever again and thus do yourselves (and me) a great favour - since all you both seem to do is quibble about anything I post and "like" anybody who posts their disagreement with anything I've said.

I don't disagree with everything KKJason says but the sexpats and sex tourists do actually put the money directly into the hands (or down the pants) of the lower strata of society. So it fuels the economy because the money is spent. Your average successful money boy has a better motorbike and phone than the factory worker. Plus he pays rent, buys food etc.

Good grief, I do believe Cndmatt has put me on ignore. I'm not Scottish or Arsenal so why?
I couldn't sleep last night, nor could I satisfy the man beside me.
Fuck . . . my love of Cdnmatt's bullshit will be missed.

No, I haven't put you on ignore. I just didn't feel like listening to people bitching at me for hijacking another thread, when in reality, it's people like you that hijack the threads due to your obsession with me.

Just look in the "When Barry met Leo" thread om the Everythomg Else section if you want your answer. Reply there, not here.

Yes. Matt lives in his own threads in the everything else section. Please don't encourage him over here Smiles.

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Originally Posted by Smiles

Good grief, I do believe Cndmatt has put me on ignore. I'm not Scottish...so why...

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If only, Smiles .....if only.

Bizarrely, the ones who evidently like me the least are the same ones who hang on my every word.

How creepy is that? (Question mark)

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Originally Posted by scottish-guy

Now if you and Francois would be kind enough to put me on "ignore" I'd appreciate it.

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Never, scottish-guy, or almost never. :devilsh:

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Originally Posted by scottish-guy

other than your own differing opinion - unless of course you have something in writing from the Head of the Thai Police/Immigration Dept telling you why they raided these premises or can produce some kind of statement from TAT saying how they just welcome elderly gay sex tourists and their dissolute lifestyles.

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Last night on the way to Jomtien for a late dinner, a number of vehicles passed me similar to last fridays raid. They had 6 members inside and 8 uniformed soldiers sitting in the back. The soldiers were not wearing winter dress but light coloured work clothes I wondered if this was a follow up to last friday. They appeared to continue on.

Your long distance observation of Police destroying Sunee and perhaps Boyztown ,to be followed by a crackdown on Jomtien, as part of Police push to get rid of elderly gay sex tourists, is garbage
Immigration are doing the same for girl bars and catching many here without visas in all bars. Lpcal papers have more detail.

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Originally Posted by lonelywombat

...Your long distance observation of Police destroying Sunee and perhaps Boyztown ,to be followed by a crackdown on Jomtien, as part of Police push to get rid of elderly gay sex tourists, is garbage..

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1. I never said that Police had "destroyed" Sunee, I suggested they had raided it heavily over the years and those raids had contributed to its demise.
2. I never mentioned Boyztown at all.
3. I never predicted that there would be a "crackdown on Jomtien" - I merely pointed to the raids on a couple of venues that you yourself described
4. I never said there was a "Police push to get rid of elderly gay sex tourists" - I asked if, after taking everything into account (tightening of Visa regulations, Proof of Income changes, together with the aforementioned raids), it might ever dawn on such people that they are not actually wanted in Thailand.

Clearly it hasn't dawned on you and you still cling to the illusion that the presence in Thailand of "elderly gay sex tourists" is appreciated. On all available evidence, including repeated Thai Govt statements over many years which have vowed to get rid of all sex tourists, I'd suggest it isn't appreciated (by the authorities at least).

Well it's probably appreciated by the thousands of people in Pattaya who earn a comparatively good living out of them/us.

The whole idea of which seems to permanently irritate you. Dunno why.

Not only in Pattaya. In rural villages, there are mixed-race married couples who live in distinctly comfortable circumstances having met in bars and so on. And I know of one guy who would not be alive today were it not for the intervention of a caring falang who paid his medical expenses. And this isn't a sexual relationship.

Please note:

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Originally Posted by scottish-guy

.... I'd suggest it isn't appreciated (by the authorities at least).

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Or you.

What a dismal response to events..

There's a police raid - reasons unclear - and all the clientele can do is bitch at each other..

- The police must think that Christmas has come early..!

I don't care much for Pattaya, but those who do clearly need to raise their game..

Of course I never bitch, but I'm tempted to speculate "their game" is about the only thing some of "the clientele" can manage to raise these days

:p

The game is very simple. It's kind of the same as how Trump hates brown people.

The supply and demand is there for the market, but it's military and government interference that's the problem.

trump hates brown people...really????

Causes he's so dumb he assumes it just MUST be them who are snapping up all of his favourite brand of sun bed tanning lotion and that he believes must be why it's so expensive when he sends his staff out shopping for his weekly 10 gallon drum order of it ! Damn those other brown people he says DAMN THEM !

ironic that he secretly self-tans to get that orange glow of youth,
accented with his tiny hands...

I think the ship sailed on the secretly part a LONG time ago somehow ! The man looks like a full on umpa lumpa for goodness sake - with white eyes lids to boot!