Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonanTheBarbarian
Regarding the views of Paul Bew.
He is a respected historian in Queens University in Belfast, but he is also, as is well known, a staunch Ulster Unionist. He was a close adviser to David Trimble in the run-up to the Good Friday Agreeement, and he is still a UUP supporter I believe (and actually he writes more often for the Spectator than the New Statesman).
Not saying that being a Unionist his views should be ignored, but his biases should be kept in mind.
The Ulster Unionists are in a state of horror at the thought of Scottish independence as (out of the four UK regions)they are culturally closer to Scotland than England. They worry, I think, that Scottish independence would create the suggestion that as the two major cultural groups in Norther Ireland look to southern Ireland and the Scotland respectively, why is NI in a Union with the London govt. rather than Edinburgh or Dublin?
I agree that being a unionist colors the viewpoint and his take may be not hold much water but it's interesting.
To say that "Ulster" Unionists (not all the counties of Ulster are in N. Ireland) are culturally closer to Scotland is an over-simplication.
The NI Unionists are close to Lowland Scotland, not to Gallic Scotland.
The Lowland Scots derive from England and would historically have nothing to do with the Gaelic language, highland kilts, bagpipes etc until Walter Scott became the darling of Victorian Britain.
Now even the royal family like to do the highland fling in a kilt though their antecedent the Duke of Cumberland did more to wipe out Scottish culture during and after Culloden than perhaps any other individual.
Interestingly a section of the Unionist population in NI speak a language called "Ulster Scots"-a dialect once spoken in Lowland Scotland (and maybe still is) having no connection with Gallic/Gaelic. It's now being fostered under the Good Friday Agreement getting equal recognition as Gaelic.
My head is in a spin with all this nuance.
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
There's another "nuance" as far as the Ulster Unionist Party and other similar parties are concerned - sheer religious bigotry.
Whilst there may be some respectable, moderate people within the UUP and DUP and within the ranks of their supporters - it is difficult to find much evidence of them. What we routinely see instead is a bunch of angry, shouty, bigots being egged on by other elected bigots in suits. The truth is that both the Ulster Unionists and the Democratic Unionist Party (in NI) are sustained by bigotry, their connections to the anti-Catholic Orange Order, and both have historic links to "loyalist" terrorism.
In relation to Scottish Independence the UUP and DUP are promoting what they see as the Protestant agenda, which is "God save the Queen" "Three cheers for the Red, White, and Blue", "No Surrender", and "Fuck the Pope". However, the more these odious organisations become involved, the more the YES vote increases, because anything these retards are against, must therefore be a good thing!
Right-minded Scots have no truck with their agenda, but unfortunately it finds traction with (an increasingly small) minority of Scottish knuckle-draggers who retain or manufacture some bizarre attachment to the Ulstermen (not to mention the BNP and other racist organisations) and some rather obscure battle fought in 1690.
Evidence of these wonderful examples of human intelligence can be seen in the clip below (note the Red Hand of Ulster flags, Union Jacks, and the England football top wearer)
This is the unacceptable face of BRITISH nationalism - prepare to be shocked both by the bile and hatred that spews out of those who call themselves "the people" and the sheer lack of any education, not to mention grasp of any facts. It is quite amusing to hear them "threaten" to move to England if Scotland votes YES. The reality is that the vast majority of Scots would welcome their self-exile and would encourage them to make it permanent.
[youtube:3myrcbe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR53bcBDOGg[/youtube:3myrcbe2]
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Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Very strange that these pro-union people would use the ancient gaelic symbol -the Red Hand of Ulster as part of their regalia.
The Red Hand was and is the symbol of the Ui Neill Clann (including the MacNeills of Barra) and was carried into battle by the O'Neills against the English many times especially during the 9 years war to the war cry: "Lamh Dhearg Abu!".
To present times; my contacts in Scotland tell me that many of the Catholic faith in Scotland will be voting "no" to independence (ironically) because of the biggotry you mentioned.
I'm told that they fear that in an independent Scotland the signicant anti-Catholic population there will have too much power. The feeling is that Westminister ,though more distant and English based, will be a more neutral administrator when it comes to dealing with localised sectarianism.
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Thaiguest, I suggest that you change your "contacts" as they seem to be giving you some skewed information.
Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever of an "anti-catholic population" in Scotland - unless you count some neanderthal supporters of a certain football club as significant?
True, Catholics are in the minority - but non-Catholic does not equate to anti-Catholic by any stretch of the imagination. You might as well say that there is a "significant anti-Hari Krishna population"!!!
Secondly, all the evidence is that, contrary to what your contacts tell you, the Catholic vote in Scotland is pro-YES.
See this from a Unionist newspaper (there is no other kind) just last week:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...tland.23704996
In any event, we do not want or need religion brought in to the debate - which is exactly the motivation of the UUP and DUP, and why their views are utterly disregarded by the vast majority.
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
In any event, we do not want or need religion brought in to the debate - which is exactly the motivation of the UUP and DUP, and why their views are utterly disregarded by the vast majority.
Even though you just ripped the shite out of the entire UUP / DUP membership who are of course mainly protestants, your own lets say strong dislike of them equals anything I see from them that's equally hate driven I fear (even though I don't disagree with you that most of them are 100% arseholes - but that goes for BOTH SIDES HERE which is something you fail to address at all I see - oh and as for utterly disregarded views etc - aye except by the people who actually voted for them all i.e. the majority of unionist voters here so not quite utterly disregarded now is it.
Anyway I'll leave you all to it, religion and politics - as boring as shite and a topic best avoided at all costs in my view, especially on a gay forum thats meant to be fun but hey if that's how you get your kicks knock yourselves out, you should move here as there's any amount of people here who just love and live to have the same type of conversations here over and over and over again, which is half the reason I go to Thailand so often !
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
NIrish, what us under discussion here is not the politics of Northern Ireland per se, but the intervention/interference of the UUP and DUP in the Scottish referendum debate - which given that 99.9% of their supporters and members will be ineligible to vote in the referendum, causes me to question their motives. Do you find that unfair or unreasonable?
My argument is that, as far as their contribution to Scottish politics is concerned, their sole motivation at this time and in this debate is one of religious bigotry. Feel free to advance other reasons for their intervention - I can't think of any. From where I view it their "Unionism" is almost entirely borne out of historical and ingrained religious bigotry - and when I consider their close ties with other sectarian organisations in Scotland (such as the repugnant Orange Order), it only strengthens my opinion
I have no interest in N Irish politics whatsoever unless those involved in them seek to stick their nose into matters which really are none of their business. If they choose to do so, then they therefore place themselves under scrutiny.
As for the "other side" - I do not take sides - but I will say that the only comments I have heard expressed from the Republican "side" (e.g. via Sinn Fein) is that the Scottish Referendum is a matter for the people of Scotland. As the republicans have not intervened/interefered in the Scottish referendum, I saw no need to involve them in my post - which was entirely a response to the interference.
For the avoidance of doubt, when I say that nobody sensible is interested in the thoughts of the UUP OR DUP, I mean nobody in Scotland and on the issue of the forthcoming referendum. Obviously their views and those of the Republicans find traction with, and are relevant to those in N Ireland- but they are utterly irrelevant and unwanted in the context of the Scottish independence debate.
For the further avoidance of doubt, I do not make my comments from a partisan stance. I was brought up as a Protestant and having had the capacity to form my own opinions for over 40 yrs (including observing events on the island of Ireland over that period) I am a confirmed athiest and can assure you that I despise all organised religions quite equally and abhor ALL political parties who use religion as a sectarian means of winning support.
As for your dislike of political subjects being discussed on a Gay forum, well it is of course your privilege to dislike them.
I, on the other hand, find these discussions a welcome distraction from gossiping about the cock sizes of assorted male prostitutes and discussion of how little some members feel they can get away with paying them. Not that I'm suggesting that you find such topics interesting but you must admit they do regularly feature on this forum. It was myself who asked Surfy to place the discussion in the Open Forum so that those who do not wish to participate would not be encouraged to do so because it was in a more popular sub-section.
:-T
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
The contribution of the last two posters is interesting.
Scottish guy rejects my contention that there may be an (ironical) anti -independence vote among many of those who claim to be of the Catholic faith in Scotland.
N Irish weighs in with charges of uneven treatment of one side in the N Ireland sectarian conflict by Scot Guy and laments the introduction of sectarianism into the debate on this "open discussion" forum.
You know what?
Sectarianism needs open discussion as part of the cure for the social disease in question. England has a much larger sectarian issue to deal with now vis.a.vis radical Islam versus the rest than it ever had since the intra-christian conflicts of the 17th and 18th centuries.
Yes, Scotland has a sectarian issue to deal with-an intra-Christian conflict- partly imported from Ireland but not exclusively. It raises its ugly head in sport and politics all the time-admittedly in particular locations only.
Many of the "hard men" of N Ireland "loyalism" have fled to Scotland as their "Rebublican" opposite numbers have fled to S. Ireland.
I think that the few "pink" followers of this topic can take all this in without too much of a hissy-fit.
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Thaiguest - I really, really wish your "contacts" would give you some accurate, up-to-date information.
Any "sectarian issue" there may be in my country is exclusive to the West of Scotland - and to two particular football clubs.
The "green side" (in football) may well sing Irish republican songs and wave the Irish tricolour (which I frankly find bizarre and I cannot comprehend why one would wish to wave the flag of a foreign country - even allowing for the history of that football club) but I do not regard that as being on the same level of bigorty as their "blue" rivals who sing about the joys of being "up to our knees in fenian blood" throughout the football match.
On the East coast, there is very little (if any) sectarian element to the Hearts/Hibs rivalry and there is nothing at all in the north or south of the country. What we are talking about here is a bunch of in-bred, indoctrinated nutters whose behaviour is an affront to, and condemned by, the vast majority of the population.
Fortunately, in the new politics of Scotland, such behaviour as I have described above now attracts a prison sentence, although there is (unbelievably) pressure to overturn this law.
Now, you made a statement that the Catholic vote was a "NO" vote, did you not?
I countered by linking you to a newspaper article of no more than 2 weeks old, which reveals the exact opposite.
If you are going to continue asserting that you are correct on this matter, would you please produce some evidence rather than making unsubstantiated claims and citing as your sources some un-named third party "contacts"
Just one other thing - you introduce the "anti - Islamic" dimension of sectarianism.
I would simply point out that this is peculiar to England (where they have a far higher immigrant count), but you might also want to consider that there is a certain English football team who routinely sing and chant anti-Semitic songs and chants. I'm just making the point that sectarianism in the UK is not confined to Scotland, but at least we are doing something about it.
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
I swore I wasn't getting drawn into this discussion any further - and I'm not, but just let me add that as someone who played in a cabaret band here at least four nights a week for well over 15 years and has played everywhere from top hotels and classy venues right down to the hardest UDA / UVF / IRA clubs and Orange and GAA halls etc, with the former coming complete with armed men in balaclavas on stage during the bingo making announcements about up and coming events in their communities and also my returning within the last year from a weeks trip to Vegas where I joined a mate "for the Craic" along with an organised group of Celtic supporters clubs, who assumed ( incorrectly) because I was there, wearing one of their tee shirts and was "obviously" one of them and one of "the boys" that ( as I've said before) BOTH sides I can assure you are and can be just both as hateful, bigoted, sectarian, mentally dumb and full of bile towards each other and their respective religions as each other and those quaint republican songs you speak of also contain lyrics that can easily turn ones stomach in terms of inciting murder and other such acts etc - but that is of course the nature of some of those types of songs - again on both sides.
Anyway, this is my last comment on the matter as I've no wish to get drawn into this type of conversation, but it would be nice for just "some" balance perhaps SG as whilst actually I mainly but not totally agree with most of what you say about the DUP etc ( who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire) and also have nothing but comtempt for the knuckle draggers here of which there are many ( on both sides) that really DOES stretch right across the spectrum here and to single out just one side really paints a false picture - IMHO opinion of course, but I should state that as I live here most normal decent thinking here would agree with me that both sides here are as bad as each other and need to knock it on the head - not just one side.
Ok, that's me all done in this topic, enjoy the rest of your discussion.
Ps SG - ya can expect yer windies put in by 6 clack the night !!!!! :-) ( which I'm sure YOU know is a joke just in case anyone else doesn't !)
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
Thaiguest - I really, really wish your "contacts" would give you some accurate, up-to-date information.
Any "sectarian issue" there may be in my country is exclusive to the West of Scotland - and to two particular football clubs.
The "green side" (in football) may well sing Irish republican songs and wave the Irish tricolour (which I frankly find bizarre and I cannot comprehend why one would wish to wave the flag of a foreign country - even allowing for the history of that football club) but I do not regard that as being on the same level of bigorty as their "blue" rivals who sing about the joys of being "up to our knees in fenian blood" throughout the football match.
On the East coast, there is very little (if any) sectarian element to the Hearts/Hibs rivalry and there is nothing at all in the north or south of the country. What we are talking about here is a bunch of in-bred, indoctrinated nutters whose behaviour is an affront to, and condemned by, the vast majority of the population.
Fortunately, in the new politics of Scotland, such behaviour as I have described above now attracts a prison sentence, although there is (unbelievably) pressure to overturn this law.
Now, you made a statement that the Catholic vote was a "NO" vote, did you not?
I countered by linking you to a newspaper article of no more than 2 weeks old, which reveals the exact opposite.
If you are going to continue asserting that you are correct on this matter, would you please produce some evidence rather than making unsubstantiated claims and citing as your sources some un-named third party "contacts"
Just one other thing - you introduce the "anti - Islamic" dimension of sectarianism.
I would simply point out that this is peculiar to England (where they have a far higher immigrant count), but you might also want to consider that there is a certain English football team who routinely sing and chant anti-Semitic songs and chants. I'm just making the point that sectarianism in the UK is not confined to Scotland, but at least we are doing something about it.
Thanks for the reply.
I did not say that the Catholic vote was "no". I wrote "many of the Catholic faith will be voting "no" to Scottish Independence" for the reasons I outlined.
I have to admit that my evidence is anecdotal but comes from solid business type people there who have no axe to grind and they generally predict a 60/40 "no" vote overall.
It will all come out in the wash in the end.