An apposite comment - just don't mention Prince Andrew
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So anyway - following our tete-a-tete with the Immigration lawyer (whose meter was running faster than a BKK taxi driver's), there do not seem to be any options for the BF staying on in the UK (which is much as I expected).
The only way he could remain would be to claim asylum which given that Vietnam is not known to criminalise/persecute gays (the only applicable situation we can think of) would be a very difficult claim to succeed in.
Otherwise, all options involve leaving the UK and hoping to be granted a fresh Visa of whatever category (absolutely not guaranteed)
So, some serious thinking will be required over the next few months as to how to move forward.
I'm sure you've looked into it a hundred times SG but what about a ( genuine) study visa as that seems the automatic route for most guys ?
I know one Chinese friend of mine came here on a tourist visa and on liking the place ( god knows why) asked me to take him Queens University ( which he knew nothing of but had just googled "local Uni'). I explained cockily "oh trust me it doesn't work like that" and he looked at ME strangely and just said "ok, but take me please anyway". I did, he literally walked in the front door with no appointment, spoke to "someone" ? ( in the classes department I guess), he then picked ( WAS SOLD) some random course that he liked / could tolerate and signed up for and paid for it on the spot.
His fee ( which was considerable I seem to recall - like over a grand I think or maybe even two ?) but he was clear that to the Uni it was a business and they would do anything to help him get in / get his visa - as long as he paid them of course.
But that was it, he stayed here a while until the end of his tourist visa, then instantly switched over to his Study visa without having to leave the country, he then moved into digs here and stayed several more months and only left by his own choice again several months later and once he got bored. The whole study visa thing was obviously only a means to an end for him as he didn't give a toss about actually studying as his family were apparently rich enough to afford multiple Visas in several Countries that he visited it seems as I noted on facebook that he played that same card in several Countries that he visited it seems and it seems he just factored in "study visa cost" to his overall costs of world travel it seems.
So What about that - no joy there perhaps ?
Well the Study Visa/Student Visitor Visa was a route we tried 5 years ago and it was refused.
We did not find the process anywhere near as easy as your Chinese friend and (please take this in the spirit it's intended) there are a number of serious omissions in the story as it has been told to you:
1. You need to PROVE you have a shitload of money which will sustain your living expenses throughout the duration of your Course. At the time we tried it was a minimum of £800 per month - so for a one year course you'd need to have (and demonstrate you had) "recourse to funds" of £9600 in an established bank account in your name for at least the last 6 months
2. The only way around that (if you're unable or unprepared to deposit 10,000 knicker in your BFs bank account for 6 months) is to claim that YOU will underwrite that sum of money and then the onus falls on YOU not only to PROVE you have "recourse to funds" but (and here's the bitch) PROVE you will give those funds to him. Quite how you are supposed to PROVE what you will do in the future remains a mystery and that was the excuse they used to refuse the Visa - that they "were not satisfied" that although I had deposited said funds in a dedicated UK Bank Account and had certification to prove it, that I would actually make those funds available to him if and when he arrived.
3. As the "sponsor" you then have to submit yourself to intense scrutiny - this involves providing the title deeds to your property, your bank statements, your birth certificate, even the logbook of your car!! All of which must of course be notarised by a solicitor at your own (considerable) expense.
So, to sum up, yes it could be something to look at again but it's something we tried years ago and either your Chinese friend is extremely well off on his own account or there are aspects to his application he's not telling you.
The other aspect I find confusing is that he seems to have gained a Study Visa whilst in the UK on a Visitor Visa - we were told yesterday that this simply isn't possible and that any application for any other Visa must be made from your country of residence - which would involve going back to Vietnam and starting again.
But I do appreciate you taking the time to post a suggestion :drink:
Whilst the above happened maybe 4 years ago now I can assure you that it WAS exactly as I've outlined above. Even I was surprised just how easily he literally walked into Queens, picked a course, paid ( up front) for it, got whatever paperwork he needed and that was it - I dont even think HE did the visa stuff, I think that was the university as part of his "fee" as he was staying with me at the time and I dont recall any / or much paperwork floating around at the time and he honestly couldn't have cared less and obviously having did this before it was all just a matter of routine to him it seemed - and the bottom line is it MUST have worked as he did stay on here for maybe 9 months more I think before moving on.
All those other things - I think I would have a go at again if I were you. Surely the bank account thing would be just a matter of giving him a bank debit card etc ( and removing the money the second the visa was granted of course ! :)? I do think though as you've said my chinese friend WAS well off ( if not bloody rich actually) with family money as he just seemed / seems to spend his life travelling. I've watched his facebook travels since and he would put many of us to shame !
I assume BTW that you've also looked into "specialist skills"and employing him in some bullshit way too ( although I'm not sure "blowing the boss" counts as THAT special (well to them if not to you ! ) as with the amount people who ARE getting their Visa's to here now I wouldn't give up hope perhaps - best of luck either way of course.
Mind you on reflection - now that you've got your first tourist visa ( which is of course by FAR the hardest) and they tend to be a lot more lenient there after in the issuing of further visas it seems as theres a proven record of going home etc, perhaps one x 5 or 6 months visit a year or 2 x 4 month visits a year just might well work as enough for both of you so that you still have the best of both worlds - quite literally.
Yes the 6 monthly visa route was my original plan but now of course he doesn't ever want to go back to Vietnam for the other 6 months!!
There's also (as the lawyer advised) a long term visitors visa which still affords the 6 months out of 12 stay in any calendar year but can be valid for 2, 5,or 10 years to save re-applying every year - but again you have to go home.
We have made contact with some of the Vietnamese community here to try to get some tips but (you've guessed it?) it turns out my BF is the only one of the lot who's here legally :D
I am surprised that frequent hasn’t suggested it but wouldn’t getting married be the answer to your visa problems?
That would be the answer - except that he is specifically not allowed to get married or enter a civil partnership in the UK on a Visitor's Visa, nor does Vietnam recognise same sex marriage, so that's out too.
A few years ago it was trumpeted that Vietnam was going to lead the way in Asia with same-sex marriage. The reality was different and turned out to be that you can now go ahead and have a nice little same-sex wedding ceremony in Vietnam if you feel like it (nobody will stop you) but legally it means nothing, therefore the UK will not recognise it, so bang goes that Visa option.
I really feel that after 7 or 8 years to get him here we are not going to be split up by red tape, so if I can't keep him here legally (and he desperately wants to stay and wants nothing in the way of state benefits) then I may have to just bite the bullet, sell up, and move elsewhere.
As one gets older the limited time left really concentrates the mind and one realises there is very little time to piss about before one's health inevitably dictates that all options have run out
There is really something VERY special about a Vietnamese guy who desperately wants to stay somewhere as cold as Scotland. Good find, SG.
I guess it all depends on your persona, but living in Asia really isn't very bad SG. It's to the point I can't really imagine myself living in a cold and isolated society such as Canada anymore, and much prefer the life you see and experience on the streets in Asia. I'm also quite confident Leo will dislike Canada for those same reasons -- the paranoia and fear that permeate the West just don't really exist out here, and it's somewhat of a sigh of relief.
Like you said, you only live once. I wouldn't be too scared of packing up and moving, as there's always a decent chance it will turn into one of the best decisions of your life.
Jesu! it's not as cold or as boring as say Norway.
A friend met a Norwegian girl who invited him to spend a week in her 50,000 pop town.
After dinner 1st night he rubbed his hands, put on his coat and asked the family which pubs they were all going to.
Blank faces all around; only 3 pubs in the town, closed already, no skiing because no snow though still freezing cold ....
The week took a lifetime and of course no sex because of Pappa.
Re: Visa Success.
Pity he's not a middle east migrant.
I see a few irrate male Sweedes complaining on line about the queues of divorced women lining up to 'adopt' single male migrants (just like your guy) but never taking females or families.
It happened in the Calais migrant case in the south of England too.
So many 'children' had beards that the authorities put up screens on the pier.
Check it out on utube.
Reminds me of the time that Scotland reached the final of the under 16 World Cup and had to play Saudi Arabia - the Saudi "under 16s" were all 6ft tall, built like brick shithouses and had full moustaches and beards whilst ours looked like........15/16yo schoolboys (as you'd expect)
After the (inevitable) defeat Scotland protested to equally corrupt FIFA that there was no way that the Saudi players were under 16s - but the Saudi response was that they don't bother with formalities like birth certificates so there was no way of checking - and they got away with it!!
If you are happy with the idea of marriage*, then would it not be possible to identify a third country, where you can get married & where the marriage is likely to be recognised in the UK ? Must be a soft target in the Shengen zone ?
(*I would not entertain the idea myself, but that's not relevant to this thread)
Now the lefties in Britain are condemning efforts to 'age' the migrants as 'offensive' on the BBC et al.
They are stating (by default) that a full beard and or dental growth do not necessarily signify any particular level of male maturity.
The latest advocate of this theory trending now is a black, liberal, middle aged, female, Labour Party supporter whose name is of no business of mine.
I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it. For example, if we got married in say Ireland, and tried to submit our Irish marriage certificate to the Canadian government for permanent residency status via spousal sponsorship, I'm certain it would be rejected, and we'd be told to get married in Canada and provide a marriage certificate from a Canadian provincial government.
I would imagine the same holds true for the UK.
^ I don't think so Matt - I think it your marriage would (have to be ) recognised as both Countries recognise equal marriage - I think ? Why not give it a try and see, only cost you two flights and a marriage licence to find out if we're right or not - worth the gamble in my book. SG would the same not apply to you too ??
I believe you are correct Nirish. In America's case - it was quite common for gays to get married in New Zealand up until a few years ago. They could then use that marriage certificate to apply for a marriage visa to the United States, as long as they we planning to live in one of the states that recognized gay marriage at that time. Now that the entire country recognizes gay marriage, the point is a bit moot, except for the fact that many still use a third country in order to get the marriage, and not fiance visa. It saves time down the road. The point being - if the country you are going to recognizes gay marriage, then they should likely also recognize a license issued by another country.
Cheers -
Right, but the UK recognizes civil partnership, not same-sex marriage.
That, and I guess I'd have to consult an immigration lawyer, but I'm quite confident if I submitted a permanent residency status application in Canada via spousal sponsorship, they would flat out reject it if I submitted an Australian marriage certificate. Maybe I'm wrong though, and that's what immigration lawyers are for.
Assuming I'm right, I would imagine the UK is the same. That, and UK doesn't recognize same-sex marriage, so it's a moot point.
On top of this, does the UK maybe work differently than Canada when it comes to marriage laws?
In Canada, marriage is done at the provincial level, hence regardless of immigration status (visitor, work permit, illegal, whatever), you can still get married without issue. Is the UK different in that respect, and marriage is done at the federal level, or?
Matt, thanks for input but just two things : you have stated twice that the UK "does not recognise same sex marriage" - it absolutely does - and irrespective of the legislative "level" at which marriage takes place (the honest answer is I don't know) the current issue is that his Visitor Visa specificially precludes it as well as work and study
The suggestion of using a third country to get married is one I will certainly look into.
The issue is going to be whether my BF can obtain a Visa/Schengen Visa for that "third" country (notoriously difficult for Vietnamese to gain lawful entry to anywhere outside of the Asean countries) and whether the conditions of that Visa and the laws of the particular country allow or preclude entering into either a CP or marriage.
A preliminary search suggests that Latvia and the Czech Republic are the easiest Schengen countries to obtain a visa from (99% approval apparently) - but I've yet to search their same-sex policies
Ok it appears Latvia and CZ are out:
"As of October 2017, fifteen European countries legally recognise and perform same-sex marriage: Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom. In Austria, marriages will be legal from 1 January 2019".
Out of those I don't know which ones would readily grant a Visa to a Vietnamese citizen. Denmark is mooted online as the easiest to get married in but the ease of obtaining the Visa is not stated and the list of documents required for a marriage is quite onerous
The rules in Ireland don't appear to be onerous and there doesn't seem to be any problem if the couple are both foreigners. But does that mean you BF would find it any easier to re-enter or settle permanently in Scotland? Then you're back to UK rules. Or you could just remain on the Emerald Isle. :)
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...g_married.html
Alas as I’m sure SG knows only too well unfortunately Southern Ireland are part of the shenghen arrangement ( by choice) and so entry to there for his BF would be just as tough as entering the UK. Also as SG points out some ( most ?) Countries take a dim view of you using a tourist visa to get married whilst there - saying that that’s take a dim view BUT THEY CANT STOP YOU and the only risk is they perhaos slow down or refuse your next visa application, but if it’s just a country you are “using” for that purpose then that might not matter much anyway - worth looking into SG I think.
Also just for clarity I can confirm that MOST ( but not all) of the UK now allows equal marriage. England, Scotland and Eakes yes - but my very own Northern Ireland are still holding out due to the Ultra right wing evanegical Christian DUP ( bigots) who are in charge here ( even though just now they’re technically not but as they have the UKZ Government by the balls just now due to their lack of a majority in the main UK Parliament I can’t see that changing anytime soon or without court rulings ordering them to allow ( and that’s been tried and failed once already too :-( but we’re keeping up the fight here and as we say a lot here No Surrender !!!
Ok, sorry, I'm not too well versed on UK law. Unsure if this helps any, but I've been through this process before, albeit in Canada. My first husband was Hungarian, and we successfully got him PR status to Canada. If it helps any....
- It took about 18 months and $8000. I think the application fee itself was only about $700, but he had a high-end immigration lawyer help us. We had meetings with 5 different lawyers, and picked the one we liked.
- We got married in Canada while he was an illegal immigrant. He came in under a 6 month visitor VISA, and stayed for 5 years. Again, marriages in Canada are under the provincial governments, so federal government and immigration have absolutely nothing to do with them. Maybe the UK is different.
- This is actually one of the main reasons we moved to Budapest. If you apply from outside of Canada and get rejected, you have the right to one appeal. Apply from inside Canada and get rejected though, you have no right to appeal, and simply get your deportation notice.
- The first round of documentation was about 3 inches thick, and took about 6 weeks to put together. They want everything -- financials, bank statements, lease / house title if you own, cover letters from each of you explaining the relationship, letters from family and friends on both sides verifying the relationship, tax returns, joint bank account statements, timestamped photos of you together, things like birthday cards from family / friends, business registration if you own a business, travel itineries of any trips you took together, criminal background checks from all countries you ever resided in, etc.
- I had to modify my cover letter, because it mentioned that we got married on advice from the lawyer. She said that was a really bad idea, as the government doesn't take kindly to people who only get married for PR status I guess.
- During the application process, we submitted two more rounds of documentation, each about 1 inch thick. Just photos of us together in Europe, proof of residence, more letters from family, extra photos ad birthday / Christmas cards, etc.
- After 18 months, he got a letter from the Canada embassy saying he's approved. He went to the embassy in Vienna and have his PR status affixed to his passport. Upon entry to Canada, he got his PR card, and all necessary forms to get a SIN# for work, health care, etc.
- You'll have to check UK law, but the one reason I highly doubt we'll ever apply to get Leo PR status is because under Canadian law, you need to reside in Canada for 2 out of every 5 years in order to retain PR status. If you don't, they revoke your status.
- I had to sign that I would take care of him for 10 years. If he conducted any criminal activity, went on welfare, or anything of nat nature, then I was held liable for him.
Obviously, best to consult an immigration lawyer, but I would imagine the process is somewhat similar in Canada and the UK.
The whole idea of the Shengen zone is once you have a visa for one Shengen country, you can use it to legally enter all of them. A necessary step, since they don't have any border controls either.
So I think you need to:
1 Figure out which country grants a Shengen visa most easily.
2 Decide which Shengen country to get married in, quite separately.
3 I imaging marriage in one EU country has to be recognized in another, as anything else goes against the whole ethos of the organization.
Of course, please check my logic is right on points 2 & 3.
It may be difficult, but it is achievable. Enjoy this current visit. When BF goes back home enrol him on a course, English Language is fine, apply for a student visa from Vietnam. Supply all the paperwork, despite the hassles and the guarantees required. When course runs out extend the course, or find another one. After a while you can demonstrate that you have been living together, so he goes back to Vietnam and applies for a marriage visa.
It's a question of how much is it worth to you both to be together. It's a shitload of hassle and it isn't cheap, but with perseverance it can be done and without a lawyer. I've done this twice, with variations the second time. I know friends who have also brought their boyfriends here and are now British Citizens.
I think that I gave you this link before http://https://uklgig.org.uk, the forums are a particularly good source of information.
Another useful source is here. http://www.immigrationboards.com/gen...gration-forum/
Good luck.
I think Brad has nailed it in his above post and that to me also would seem the most logical way to go and the one with the best chance of success perhaps.
Just for clarification I said in a post above that Southern Ireland are part of the Shenghen agreement, I meant of course as I continued to explain in my post) that they AREN’T ! Typo. Apologies for any confusion.
I agree that Brad's plan appears workable - I only re-iterate that we have already been down that onerous route without success because at the end of the day the Home Office just turned round and said "we are not convinced that you will make the maintenance funds you have set aside (in a separate account) available to the applicant".
Bear in mind the impossibility of proving something you will do in the future and the fact that whatever objection the Home Office comes up with you have absolutely no right of appeal or even to an explanation of how they arrive at their conclusions
Brad's advice looks good. Using other forums to learn what other people have done is always a good idea.
A bit of research on my idea of getting married in the Shengen zone could be worth it too (~14 months to go).
As it happens, the Thai masseur I've occasionally visited over the last couple of years was in the UK to "study English", with the visa having been arranged by his boyfriend. I gather he successfully had the visa renewed, however the Thai lad went home for a holiday & seems in no hurry to return.
Over the years, I've also visited several Thai masseurs in Berlin & every single one of them came over to live with a boyfriend several years earlier (& no longer lives with the bf). So it has been done in Germany.
Not advising anyone else here, but in the unlikely event that I were ever to do that, a pre-nup would be in place. Incidentally, a friend of mine was advised by his divorce lawyer to have a pre-cohab agreement in place before moving his prospective partner in. Whether that is good advice, or to generate more legal feees, I have no idea.
And, what with Brexit in the offing, what better time is there to relocate than now?
For me this demonstrates your problem. You were either unable or unwilling to make the commitment five years ago, according to your narrative, to put £10K in your boyfriend's account, which would have demonstrated both your commitment to funding him and to your relationship together. You therefore gave an out to the Border Agency in considering the application, but you still don't recognise that there might have been something wrong in your approach.
Now, five years down the line, you are together here now, which is great, but still not able to work out how to have a long term future together.
The rules on bringing a partner to the UK are absolutely draconian and inhumane. Everyone working at the Border Agency will always turn down applications given the opportunity, it's easier. If you want to be successful you have to deny them that opportunity, that excuse. You have to do the hard graft and the research, and then supply all the documents required and also all the others that just might be helpful. Complaining about the cost of notarising a document, when it shouldn't be more than £5 to £10 per page, and for a passport for example it only needs to be two pages, suggests that you aren't willing or able to make the commitment.
My advice doesn't just "appear" workable, it is workable, because I and others have been there and done it. You seem to have such a negative approach to achieving this, that it becomes self fulfilling.
Why bother searching for a third country, as some others have advised above, when the the UK offers a fiancé/fiancée visa specifically for betrothed intending to get hitched within 6 months.
https://www.gov.uk/uk-family-visa/partner-spouse
But as Brad points out, you’ll have to stump up the cash to prove financial stability too, and stop whining about it.
It's not a matter of "whining" MiniMee, it's a matter of finding the best solution to a fairly complex problem.
Nor is is a matter of "stumping up" money (although you'll have noted there's a £993 non-refundable application fee with absolutely no guarantee of success).
I see. Nevertheless, the UK fiancé/fiancée visa seems to be the simplest solution, doesn’t it?
Yes - on the surface - but I'm getting conflicting info from the Immigration lawyer to the effect that it has to be applied for outside the UK whereas the website suggests you can apply whilst IN the UK as long as you have 28 days left on your existing visa.
So i'll need to get clarification
Is your Vietnamese friend still braving the Scottish winter ?
If so, well done to him. Even the English winter is bad enough right now.
He loves the snow in itself but is a little disappointed by the restrictions it causes.
This weekend we are off to Ben Nevis area for a few days and he is going to have a ski-ing lesson or two - that's assuming I can get the car out of my driveway tomorrow!!
Ok, I know you're all fascinated by my ongoing saga - so the latest is that BF's father (who couldn't last 3 weeks in the Scottish weather), hot on the heels and on the strength of his still current UK Visa has now applied for a Schengen Visa to visit Spain.
This could be interesting.