The travel agency was not Purple Dragon or Utopia. After Purple Dragon moved a different agency moved in. Don't think they were gay directed but a couple of their guides were nice!
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The travel agency was not Purple Dragon or Utopia. After Purple Dragon moved a different agency moved in. Don't think they were gay directed but a couple of their guides were nice!
I wonder if anyone recalls the details of the closure of that gay tour travel agency based in Tarntawan. I thought it was Utopia Tours, but it have been Spice Trade Travel. Whatever the name, I took a trip to Phnom Penh with them and then booked a night tour of Luang Prabang in the early 2000s, both of which were excellent.
There was a big scandal in 2004 which forced the closure of that company. Two of the directors were arrested for distributing pornography and employing an under-age worker in the Tarntawan office. The pornography count was merely based on the brochures they had in their office which had nothing to do with pornography! It was just unfortunate that the Thaksin social order campaigns were under way and some in the government were trying to crack down on gay tourism in general.
The BIB then found stacks of files of young boys in sex acts with one of the directors, an Australian, during a search of his home and the charges were upgraded to include child sex tourism. My recollection is that the Australian was deported, the agency was closed and a legal fund was established to help in its defence of distributing pornography. The outcome was that the agency eventually got its licence back but changed the name to Purple Dragon.
This incident wasn't part of a general crack down on gay tourism, but rather a case of Thais not being able to say "no" when faced with a strong request.
The story was covered by Yawning Bread:
http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2005/yax-435.htm
http://www.yawningbread.org/guest_2005/guw-098.htm
From the first link:
And further on:Quote:
At 11.30 a.m. on 19 March 2004, immigration police and assorted officials burst into a small travel company (...)
No evidence would ever be found, an outcome that would be quite apparent by the following day. Yet, nine months later, two men would be convicted of a substitute offence, which is why it was so sordid (...)
But when you look closely at the details, the Thais didn't seem to have wanted to pursue the case. The Australians were pressuring them all the way.
Quote:
The Australians wanted Scoble convicted. When the Thais couldn't find anything incriminating in his apartment, the Australians leaned on them to proceed with charges related to Spice Trade Travel. To make it look as if the business was somehow involved, the other director, John Goss, was also charged. And when the prosecution's case looked ridiculously weak, the judge still found a way to rule that a non-pornographic magazine was pornographic, and even when given away free, there was trading in obscene material.
Don't know the details, but to be fair it's common sense that "trading" is "trading" - whether the product is free or paid for.
It's rather like being required in the UK to hold a Consumer Credit licence to offer interest-free credit.
Well, the Thai Guys magazine was a gay magazine that was freely distributed at all gay establishments and wasn't pornographic at all.
And the "under-age worker" wasn't under-age, but Italian! He was charged with not having a work permit, but actually his work permit was already in progress, and he received it the following Monday.
Thanks for posting those comments from yawningbread. I have learned ages ago not to trust much that appears in the Bangkok media. But this comment in yawningbread, a Singapore-based site, is not accurate in relation to evidence allegedly found in the apartment as it is referred to several times subsequently in the same yamningbread report as well as elsewhere, including the Melbourne Age and the Sydney Morning Herald.Quote:
The Australians wanted Scoble convicted. When the Thais couldn't find anything incriminating in his apartment, the Australians leaned on them to proceed with charges related to Spice Trade Travel.
There were clearly two cases here. The one which hit most of the Bangkok headlines concerned the travel agency in Tarntawan in which the charges about pornographic material had no basis in law, despite the arrests and subsequent jailing of the directors. Indeed, I was one of many who contributed to its defense fund and was delighted when the case virtually collapsed and the company was eventually able to trade again.
Yet one of its directors was the Australian Scobie, a former deputy Ambassador in Hanoi who had been recalled in the 1980s after allegations of sexual abuse there. According to a 1996 Australian government enquiry, he had used the diplomatic bag to courier photos of young naked boys, some simulating sex, to an Australian mission friend who was at that time acting as a High Commissioner somewhere. He claimed this was just a joke, but it was the reason for his recall. Six months later, Interpol found his name and embassy address on an Amsterdam database of a man believed to be distributing child pornography. However, no charges were ever filed against Scobie.
Regarding the Utopia Tours incident, the Age story differs markedly from that published by yamningbread. Here is one instance -
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...57.htmlQuote:
While a raid on the Bangkok offices of Spice Trade Travel revealed nothing more incriminating than a clutch of gay magazines . . . a search of Scoble's luxury apartment in one of Bangkok's most exclusive neighbourhoods found enough material for Thai investigators to lay the first of what they forecast will be several charges relating to the abuse of children.
Amid a cache of pornographic videos, computer disks and magazines, police say they found more than 100 albums containing photographs of young teenage and pre-teen boys - many in explicit sexual poses. The photographs, described by one officer as sexual "catalogues", and other evidence have convinced police that Scoble and one of his partners, American John Charles Goss, were using their legitimate travel business as a front to market Thai children to foreign pedophiles.
It was never proved these images really did come from Scobie’s apartment and the Australian reporter for The Age subsequently agreed she only wrote about what the police had shown to her. But it seems certain that Scobie had at least been collecting a wide variety of pornography, some of which may have involved underage youths. Yamningbread actually admits this when it states “ it was noted . . . that investigators had mixed together materials from the offices and Mr. Scobie’s home.” In the same article it quotes John Goss as saying “The early intention was to arrest Scobie on the things they found in his home.” So although planting evidence in Thailand is not unusual, video and print materials – some perhaps indecent and illegal - certainly seem to have been found at Scobie’s home.
So was this just a case of 2+2 equaling 23? This conclusion was certainly true as far as Utopia Tours was concerned. But Scobie was a director of the company and already on a watch list. Whilst it is true Australia was on the lookout for diplomats and others involved overseas in sexual perversions, I can't imagine any reasonable person objecting to this. Although the initial action by the authorities against Utopia Tours was probably never very serious, the Scobie connection made it much more so.
It is, I suggest, also interesting that The Age article goes on to mention a public statement subsequently issued by the PR firm acting for Spice Trade Travel. After announcing that Scobie had resigned from the tour company and claiming that there was no basis for the charges against John Goss, significantly -
A company’s media release makes no attempt to defend the company’s managing director? Surely that is extraordinary if he was indeed innocent?Quote:
it made no attempt to defend Scoble.
And yet, adding further to the confusion, it also seems that Scobie was eventually never charged after he returned to his native Australia.
Finally regarding Tintin’s comment about this not being tied to the Social Order campaigns, I respectfully disagree. The police were first alerted to the gay nature of Utopia Tours when the Tourist Authority of Thailand received an anonymous letter about the promotion of gay tourism. The TAT alerted the police. It was perfectly clear that the company’s magazine had nothing to do with pornography, but it had a lot to do with promoting gay tourism. Under the puritanical Interior Minster Purachai’s Social Order campaigns, the objective was both to tighten laws on nighttime entertainment and clean up the country’s image as a sex tourist destination. Whilst Utopia had never promoted sex tourism, it was attracting gay tourists, not the healthy family tourism that Purachai wanted.
I don't know anything about the case other than has been reported here, but on that basis alone it seems to me that some astonishing conclusions are being jumped to on the basis of "evidence" which it is accepted may have been planted.
Further it concerns me that even though it is admitted that the person being fingered(!) by the SGT Detective Agency has not been convicted of any offence nor charged with any offence in his home country (where one would hope the justice system is rather more reliable), it seems to be a case of just pronouncing him to be guilty anyway.
Cannot help but contrast the innuendo and smearing of this technically innocent Australian with the support for a certain other well-known case whereby planted evidence (in this case drugs) was found in the possession of the individual who subsequently WAS not only actually convicted, but jailed for a lengthy period. Members of this forum and others were falling over themselves to denounce the Thai police and to deny the prima facie evidence.
Is there any basis for treating these two cases differently - apart from the fact that when it comes to accusations of underage sex, it seems otherwise rational people are conspicuously unwilling to be seen to take the side of the accused?
I don't know much more than has been reported in various media outlets and from the appeal sent out by Utopia Tours around the time they were seeking funds for their legal defence.
I think your conclusion is perhaps not entirely correct. The materials in the Utopia Tours office in Tarntawan were certainly far from illegal, had been issued for many months if not years and were quite widely distributed. On the other hand there were clearly vdos and a substantial amount of porn found in Scobie's apartment. Judging from the statements made at the time - especially the lack of any attempt to defend Scobie in the media release issued by lawyers for his own company (is that not so unusual as to be almost unique?) - it does seems perfectly possible that these included illegal underage porn. Is there 100% proof? Not that I know of. But the circumstantial evidence is pretty convincing.
Of course there have been police set-ups in Thailand - as indeed elsewhere. Remember the Guildford Four wrongly jailed in the UK for 15 or so years for a crime they did not commit? The Utopia Tours/Spice Trade Travel case might merely have ended in a fine had Scobie not been in the mix. With his being on a Australian watch list, something I reckon the other director did not know about, it was bound to open up all sorts of doors that made the whole case much more complicated.
Firstly, I accept this is all completely off-topic and we should be talking ad nauseam about a hotel which has (shock, horror) changed hands - so prosecute the person who dragged it here :D
With respect Founty I think both your penultimate post and the one immediately above, illustrate perfectly the point I was making - that astonishing conclusions are being drawn from what is some very dodgy "evidence" indeed:
In your previous post you said
You then draw the same astonishing conclusion in your subsequent post:
For me that line of argument is far from convincing.
The dangerous leap you appear to be making is from someone having been found with perfectly legal porn in their possession to saying that it's a "pretty convincing" argument that they also had underage porn in their possession. Well, helluva sorry, but that simply doesn't hold water - it's like saying because someone has a perfectly legal airgun in their home its "perfectly possible" that they may have an AK47 tucked away under the bed.
I would imagine that by that standard of evidence billions of people who possess legal porn ought to be expecting their doors to be kicked in by the feds at any moment!
Maybe this character did have illegal materials, maybe he didn't. If he did have them, maybe they were planted and maybe they weren't . The only certainty in this matter is that I don't know and you don't know either - and that's my very point.
I don't agree at all that the "circumstantial evidence" (at least that which you have set out on here) is "pretty convincing" and it certainly doesn't convince me. Neither did it convince the Thai justice system who ultimately threw out the case , and it didn't convince the Australian justice system who declined to prosecute as they could easily have done when the accused returned home.
You then go on to say that after the brown stuff hit the air con, a meeting of the Travel Company was held at which Mr Scobie was removed as a Director. Again, neither you nor I was present and we are unaware of what degree of rancour might have been involved in that action. A statement was then issued in which Mr Scobie was not defended by the Company and you interpret this action as further "circumstantial evidence" that he was guilty of the alleged offences. Come on, Founty - is it not equally "perfectly possible" that the Company was embarassed by the allegations and chose to toss Scobie overboard without a lifebelt? Maybe, maybe not - my point being it's unsafe to draw the conclusion you appear to have drawn.
I fully expect to be attacked on here now for even making the point that there does not appear to me to be ANY reliable evidence that this guy had the kind of material that is alleged. Might i gently suggest that's exactly why the Thai prosecution failed and the Australians did nothing?
The reason I expect to be attacked is that I observe that in cases which involve any allegations of sexual offending involving minors, the climate of opinion is now such that people are afraid to ask questions or challenge "evidence" lest they be tarred with the same brush. We are all expected to automatically throw our hands up in the air, get the pitchforks and flaming torches out and denounce the accused person as a "vile pervert". Then, if the person is cleared of the charges we are expected to say "... the bastard got away with it" or "... there's no smoke without fire"
It's surely a basic right that no matter how odious an accused person might be and what other things he may have previously done in his life, when he stands accused of a particular crime he receives the same standard of justice as anybody else.
Justice is (or ought to be) blind for a reason.
he probably thinks elvis is still alive...
There are several issues in the Utopia Tours case which remain unclear and to some unconvincing. I have laid out the case based on what I have recently been reading (including the very long yawning bread articles which I had not seen before) and on what I recall from being here at the time and a client of Utopia Tours. I accept much of what Scottish says, but not all. As in all issues that are not cut and dried, there are bound to be several interpretations. Since I can find nothing on the internet, I have had to assume that Scobie was not found guilty of any offence in his native Australia. But, as I'm sure Scottish is aware, when someone has "previous" - or is presumed for some reasons (and in this case there were at east two) of having access to under-age materials - it is natural that more than a degree of suspicion can be attached - rightly or wrongly.
The only other comment I'll make now (as this was a long time ago) is to take issue on your comments re the media release. Sorry, Scottish, here I totally disagree - and PR and damage limitation has been part of my business for a very long time. If a company lawyer issues a statement, it must never leave any hint of doubt that any of the parties involved might be anything other than innocent. Company lawyers don't ditch one to save another - even if they themselves had serious doubts about the truth of the issues surrounding Scobie. In doing so they run the very serious risk of damaging the reputation of both the other director and the business itself - guilt by association. As I recall, this was not the lawyer for Goss - it was a lawyer retained by the company to help fight the charges against it, of which Scobie was the Managing Director. Now if he in fact had concrete proof about Scobie, it would make sense. But not if there was any doubt.
Your statement:
"If a company lawyer issues a statement, it must never leave any hint of doubt that any of the parties involved might be anything other than innocent"
- just doesn't make sense because it totally contradicts what you said earlier:
"A company’s media release makes no attempt to defend the company’s managing director? Surely that is extraordinary if he was indeed innocent?"
You can't have it both ways Founty - the Company statement clearly not only left a "hint of doubt" despite you saying it ought never to do so, but it actually led you personally to draw an adverse conclusion regarding one of the Directors.
Perhaps they just hired a shit lawyer - or perhaps they did just throw Scobie overboard. After all we are not talking about a blue chip company are we, we're talking about a company which featured erotica in its content?
I guess we will never know the true and full circumstances and if that's the case then we ought not to draw conclusions based on some very flimsy "evidence" - that's all I'm saying and I certainly dont want to fall out about it.
:drink:
Oh come on. Scottish! I don't see any contradiction other than what was intended! The first statement (i.e. the second you list) makes clear I find it extraordinary the release does not defend the MD. Yes, I added "if he was innocent" but that certainly does not negate the earlier part of the comment.
The second statement (i.e your first) is more or less a clarification of the first. Any lawyer issuing a statement denying culpability (or whatever the charge was) that leaves out one of the parties allegedly involved opens a different can of worms. Whatever, the result is the same! Doubt! And a media release issued by a legal firm has at the very least to clarify issues and avoid doubt! I didn't create confusion. The lawyer's media release did!
and let us not forget the third director who, by virtue of not being in the office on the day of the initial raid, and in a sort of reverse baby and bathwater result, eventually ended up being the only one still in the country and thus was left to gather up the tattered remnants of the business into his dragon's den ...
bkkguy
Do you know if either of the other two ever returned to Thailand? Presumably Scobie was permanently banned.
Right then I Checked in this evening at the Tarntawan and this is what happened.
1. Nobody at the front door. I had to barge my 28 kg case through the front door and use my foot to hold it open while I carried on through with my cabin luggage.
2. At reception I was told to take seat while the attendant ensured the room was ready. 6 pm! I was given the usual welcome drink but it was half the size.
3. After 10 minutes the guy behind the desk gave me a bundle of papers and a key ad muttered the room number. I staggered alone to the 5th floor and sorted everything out myself. No guide t light/aircon etc.
4. The lovely bedding has all gone. No Thai silk things her, just basic sheets and blankets.
5. No spoons in the coffee making equipment.
6. No nice shampoo and conditioner bottles. All gone apart com some bland little bottles of shampoo.
7. TV awful. Of 17 channels only 7 are remotely watchable.
8. The room near the lift locked so you cannot access extra tfoilet paper.
9. All staff look very depressed even the helpful lift attendant. He docent seem to have been dismissed, lthough no sign of any other helpers at all.
I'm here for 4 days so will update as I go on! But it ain't good.
As I cannot find the edit button just let me say that I felt L was being ushered into a 500 bt an hour bonking bin rather than a 2100 bt per night hotel!
I have a booking for February and so the report is depressing. I had assumed, in my innocence, that the change of ownership would lead to up-dating and improvements to what has been offered- though I've never had any complaints since the hot water system was sorted -out.
Were these teething problems? new staff take time to bed-in, I suppose. But the lack of a welcome on arrival is shocking. Whenever my taxi pulled into the courtyard, one of the bell-boys would rush out, smiling, to assist with the luggage and welcome me back.
I have the feeling that those days are gone. And if that's true, so shall I.
I was thinking about booking the Rose Hotel for my upcoming trip but decided to go with the Tarntawan. I don't care about the lack of toiletries as I bring my own. And not having the silk thing on the bed doesn't bother me, either.
But I'm not happy with the lack of welcome and the poor TV.
It would appear the overall tone of the hotel has changed for the worse.
For me the only draw of the Tarntawan was its consistently welcoming attitude towards all guests. A truly comfortable environment for the gay traveler. Since my first visit in 1998, I put up with what another poster called the shabbiness of the Tarntawan simply because the hotel staff were first rate and the welcoming of overnight guests was consistent. Now, if the hotel is going to continue to be shabby (pre-1998 bathroom fixtures, poor WiFi, stained carpeting and furniture tops, decor unchanged in two decades), and if there are no improvements to new staff, service, furnishings, ambiance.....why bother? Leave it to the tour groups.
We walked by it this evening, set back as it is it looked dark, old, dingy and most uninviting. I is difficult to understand why this thread keeps going and going? Soi twolight is now a mere shadow of itself and as you walk toward Classic Boys gets oh so quiet as oppossed to Telephone and Balcony which you are hard pressed to find a seat at. 10 PM looked in Screw Boys 15 boys 0 customers. I suggest those that are hooked on this hotel simply find another!
Soi twilight all in darkness now at 1 o'clock except the two end bars. Same last night.
Whether it's the mourning or the martial law,Thailand is self strangling itself.
As I posterd earlier in this thread, I'm not a fan of either, but last 2 times I stayed in the Rose the Aircon barely worked in our room.
Of course when we complained the staff just shrugged their shoulders and said they had no more available rooms - and we were offered a (tiny) fan to help with cooling
First time I could forgive, second time leads me to believe that they have either no maintenance program or have deliberately set the Aircon controls to avoid paying electrical costs
Yes but the bars always carried on past 1 am...not now...King or are they afraid of the Army nowadayys?
Dicks had 1 customer at midnight, me having my dinner!i
I am beginning to wonder all the posters who told me everything is back to normal. It certainly isn't in Soi Twilight
As I live in Thailand I have been to Soi Twilight a few times in the the last months and the soi is always very quiet with only the first 2 beer bars across from eachother doing any real business, this is the new norm however, soi 4 remains consistintly busy, as with Sunee Plaza Soi Twlight is fading.
...why bother with soi twilight...and I say this with great sadness asI've had some great times there...but with the rise of hookup apps offering companionship at half price.....rising cost of drinks/off fees....unrealistic short time fees expectations (bars seem to think that a lack of customers can be solved by increasing prices?!?!....and pathetic erotic shows...its a mere shadow of itself...
If all the people who have viewed this thread (13K and rising) had actually *booked* a room at the Tarntawan, none of this discussion would have been necessary
:D
Since I live in BKK there's no reason I'd book into any hotel!
When I have had friends staying, I have always recommended the Swiss Lodge Boutique Hotel on Soi Convent across from Soi 4. It has now been rebranded as Le Siam Hotel. At about $60 per night for a week's stay or more including breakfast and internet, it is about the same as the Tarntawan. Cosy hotel with much nicer rooms although I suspect they're a good bit smaller, but very convenient for nightlife. Sorry I have no idea about joiners.
The Pinnacle and Malaysia(recently refurbished) are about a 45bht taxi ride to Soi 4. The Malaysia is largely gay, has a reasonably priced 24hr restaurant and room service, new flat screen TV's BBC, CNN, HBO etc. the staff are mostly long timers and service is quite good, they have a pool, the Sathorn area where they are located has so many restauants and is somewhat of a gay ghetto, rooms are 890bht per day.
I spent a night at the Tarntawan a week or so back.
In my room, the bathtub had been removed, the floor and wall retiled, and a glass screen installed to make a walk-in shower cubicle.
The remainder of the bathroom was unchanged.
The rest of the room appeared as usual.
A few little touches were missing: no umbrellas in the wardrobe, no pens and notepads.
At breakfast, I noticed an Indian family present.
Such families may well have been present in the past, but I had not seen them.
It just made me wonder if the clientele is changing.
The ever-friendly lift guard was present, but his duties seem to have expanded to include bell boy tasks, and even assistant waiter at breakfast.
Certainly, staffing levels have reduced.
The new front desk staff still struggle with checkout and payment.
In all, the hotel seems to be heading downscale.
I've now left the Tarntawan after a 4 night stay.
Most things are the same. Some staff recognised me even if there was no one there to even open the door when I arrived with a heavy suitcase.
It all boils down to savings...bedding...documents (no folders in the room) staff cutbacks, multitasking, freebies gone...still looking very tired indeed. My room also had the shower only option completed but the workmanship was cheap and the shower leaked into the bathroom, and at 2 am the toilet blocked and overflowed....
The car park was empty so presumably a cut back on company cars too. Not sure where the limo has gone, but I don't use that service anyway.
Will I stay there next time....depends on cost...if that goes up then I suspect not.
Any change to visitors and security arrangements?
No problems whatever Oliver , same same.
Gerefan, thanks for your report. I am so happy that those bathtubs are being taken out.
-no umbrellas in the wardrobe, no pens and notepads- Sorry to see these go. I have one one of the notepads here at home that I have now set aside!