Who wrote that?Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy
How do you know what "most people on this Board" do?Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy
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Who wrote that?Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy
How do you know what "most people on this Board" do?Quote:
Originally Posted by blueboy
That's really sweet... Kim has found his Romeo :love4:
LMTU. You really are a tragic, lonely, fucked up narcissistic cunt. Was you gang raped as a kid while you were selling your arse? (Obviously you couldnтАЩt earn money any other way, being as mentally challenged as you are)Quote:
What is all this about, you just 'find Em' 'Feed Em' 'Fcuk Em' 'then leave Em' for the next one, end of problem.
Why donтАЩt you try and join the human race instead of always being on the outside, enviously looking in.
If any of what you say about your current situation is true, and you are still being as twisted and fucked up as youтАЩve always been, then you are truly beyond help. LetтАЩs hope your suffering is short lived and the likes of you can quickly move on to hell and spread your venom and bile there.
At least he feeds em!
Matt,
Not that long ago (OK, it doesn't feel that long ago) I was in a very similar position to you - at a similar age to you, with my then Thai b/f at a similar age to yours, and similarly convinced that he was not only intelligent and an all-round great guy but capable, with my help, of doing anything he put his mind to. Unfortunately I was young and na├пve (OK, stupid) so it took me a long while to realize that all he was capable of doing was convincing me and others (farang or Thai, male or female, gay, straight or lesbian, young or old, it didn't matter) that he was a great guy - nothing beyond that. As became very clear, he wasn't.
I hope that your own relationship works out differently to that one.
Education.
While " A high-school diploma doesn't mean anything in Canada, and means even less in Issan" may be true, you are assuming that he is going to spend the rest of his life in rural Issan (or Canada). It means a great deal anywhere else in Thailand, and without it he would not even be considered for a job as a shelf stacker in Big C, Lotus, etc, or the vast majority of companies in Thailand - in many companies he would even find it hard to get a job taking out the garbage.
Yes, it would take a long time if he left school after 6 years - 4 years of adult education, followed by 3 or 4 years of college or tech, but it is certainly do-able particularly as he is only just 20 if it is what he wants. One of Pattaya's best known lawyers was in a similar position, working Jomtien beach, when a generous sponsor helped him finish school and then attend the Sorbonne. My partner shared a room for a while with one of his fellow masseurs, who taught him his first English; he is now a department head in a 5 star Pattaya hotel and also teaches business English. One of my partner's other friends finished four years of adult education this year and has started a course in computer studies at a technical college; another, after nearly 20 years as a "working boy", joined my partner on his advice on a 6 month full time course as a hair stylist and, like him, is now fully qualified and licenced and he has his own small but successful business in Mabtaphut. It can be done, if someone wants to do it; if they don't want to it is a complete waste of time and effort.
Buy a House. For most people, even considering building a house would come some way into a relationship and would have nothing to do with "character building". Building a decent house in Isaan costs about one tenth of the amount you have estimated.
Fund a Business. A good idea, but a waste of time and money unless he knows how to run the business. Back to education (or at least proper training, and running a business successfully means a lot more than just knowing how to cook/cut hair/repair motorbikes, etc). As so many small businesses fail, even when they are well run and appear to have everything going for them, what happens to the loan re-payments (and your relationship) if he is no longer in a position to make them? What is wrong with a "partnership", where you are at least a silent partner and sharing in any profits, or a more active partner, whether it is doing the books or the admin? If it makes a profit "you get your money back" and if it doesn't, through no fault of his (or yours), he is not left owing you money he will never be able to pay back and an unnecessary strain on whatever relationship you have.
Money. I cannot imagine why anyone would simply give someone a "wad of sweaty money" as a " one-shot-deal gift from heaven" other than as a promised "golden handshake" at the end of a relationship. If the relationship is ongoing it simply makes no sense, makes for a dangerous precedent, and could make for a lot of heartache when the giver sees how it is spent (or mis-spent), no matter how freely it was given.
Love. Some will respond to genuine love (not lust) far more than money, some will not - but as was also said which some have overlooked, that love "needs to be earned". I would also add that it needs to be earned by both sides (not just bought by one) and that earning it takes time and effort - my partner never told me he loved me until after we had been living together 24/7 for over three years, by which time it meant something.
The 3% / The Needle in the Haystack. Agreed - pretty rare, but that does not mean they do not exist. If you are one of the very few lucky enough to find it you will never look back.
Fuck, Smile and Tip Well. As advice for visitors here, I would have no arguments with that at all. For those living here, some (but by no means all) of us like to think that there is a little more to life but for those that don't it is not unreasonable.
Feeding the Monks. You don't "wake up at 6am three times a week, so (you) can go to the temple, and give the monks some food". You wake up at 6am to give them food on the street, or you give them food in the temple around 7.30; not both.
Crying. People cry, get emotional and have mood swings for all sorts of different reasons which others (including myself) all too often misunderstand.
What happened to the guy that soured the whole thing? (if you don't mind my asking)Quote:
Re: Best thing you can do for a Issan boy?
Author: Gone Fishing ┬╗ Sun 17 Jan, 2010 12:01 pm
Matt,
Not that long ago (OK, it doesn't feel that long ago) I was in a very similar position to you - at a similar age to you, with my then Thai b/f at a similar age to yours, and similarly convinced that he was not only intelligent and an all-round great guy but capable, with my help, of doing anything he put his mind to. Unfortunately I was young and na├пve (OK, stupid) so it took me a long while to realize that all he was capable of doing was convincing me and others (farang or Thai, male or female, gay, straight or lesbian, young or old, it didn't matter) that he was a great guy - nothing beyond that. As became very clear, he wasn't.
Silly girls!!...the only reasin Issan boys move to Thailands fleshpots is for a bit of adventure and money. They could easily stay back in the country side with their extended families working on the farm just like the vast majority of their compatriots.
They move to the big city because they want KFC/coca-cola and nike....discover that working at the convenience store involves long hours & low pay so take the fast way out...selling their bodies....make more money in an average week than they would in a month on a construction site.
Naturally the brighter ones go straight into prostitution.....without bothering with a "real" job.
The best thing I can do for an Issan boy is off him......I'm happy...he gets paid...
When you think about it, why shouldn't that option be available anywhere in the world, if it brings two satisfied parties together and they each get what they want. Kinda makes you think that Thailand is the one place that best comes close to allowing such a simple, mutually advantagious transaction like that.
The best thing you can do is deal with them in an honest way. Don't make promises you can not keep or have no intention of keeping. The most used comment by thai guys on gayromeo is that they don't like liars.
If all you want to do is get in their pants then pay them a decent fee and let it go at that. If they know going in that it is just sex most will appreciate you being honest and will accept that.
I don't mind at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
Surprisingly he is still alive (aged 40, when most people thought he was going to die by 21), still an alcoholic, still visibly reasonably healthy, and most surprisingly still lives in (and hasn't sold) the house I bought for him in Pattaya after we had finally gone our very separate ways (and it wasn't a tearful farewell present, it was simply that I had told him I would give him a house when we were on considerably better terms, so I did).
More details, if you want them, can be found by searching my posts on HIV and his lack of regard for his wife and then future sons, amongst others, in that and all other regards.
I wish I had never seen him in the first place, but what happened afterwards (in as much as it affected me) was up to me so he is not to blame for that. Fortunately it put me off the idea of any long term relationships for long enough so that I was still unattached when I met my partner, who is the most important thing in my life and always will be - probably one reason why I am happy to take out any ill feelings I have on some posters here (who thoroughly deserve it!) rather than on him!!
Sorry, Matt, I forgot
Conscription which Kim should be coming up for soon. There was a plethora of posts on how best to avoid it last year.
I thought it was [available anywhere in the world]... except in Western developed countries the cost is probably too high for most on this board. Hence, why guys go to to Thailand where it's cheaper... it's geographical arbitrage. (Not to mention because by nature Thai boys are so friendly and lots of fun to be with).Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
I think a lot of Thai boys are "opportunists" as well. They're ordinary students or service workers who don't mind sleeping with an older guy to get a bit of cash... but they wouldn't define themselves as prostitutes. .. I think this is something you won't find as common in wealthier Western countries.
I'm pretty sure some of the boys I've picked up at DJ Station are "money boys". They just didn't charge me. Someone told me they are opportunists... ordinary Thai boys who want to have a great night out. But if they happen to hook up with an older farang they make some money as well.
I also found in some Asian cultures, there's less taboo in paying for sex. I spent a night out with a client's team recently... they had this particularly charismatic and good looking work experience student from China... the subject of conversation jokingly came round to prositutes... and he blurted out something like... "yes, why not" lol.
He goes on to say, "yes, why not... prostitute is great... I mean... sometime you just finish exam... and you feel depressed and you want to have sex... so you go to prostitute and is great!... You just have sex with her... and just pay her... you don't have to clean up or anything!" LOL. Everyone was half rolling around laughing and half slightly stunned but then this guy was known for surprising everyone.
Sorry to hear it didn't work out very well in the end, but sounds like you're in a great relationship now though. Who knows, maybe Kim and myself will turn out to be a disaster as well. However, regardless of what happens in the future, I do know that it's worth trying. And I do know that backing down because I might get (really) hurt in the future is no excuse to pursue things to the fullest. You only live once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
Thanks again for the well thought out response, but honestly, he's not interested in becoming educated. I honestly agree with him too, because as it stands, it's futile and there's better things he could be doing with his time. For example, I think him dedicating himself to becoming a monk would be a better use of his time than working towards a high school diploma. He's only worried that his little brother and sister get a good education, but as for himself, isn't too interested in the concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
Tons of farangs have done this, and you only need to spend a week or two in Pattaya to see this. Of course I wouldn't care if he was capable of paying me back or not. I wouldn't be entering into it as a typical business relationship, wouldn't be looking for a profit (or to even break even), and obviously I wouldn't be anywhere near as critical as I generally would be with business relationships involved in my work. Really, funding a business is going to cost what in KK? 500,000 for a small 15 table place, maybe? Sure it's enough to worry about, but if I lose it, it's hardly the end of the world. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
And no, I don't want to be his business partner. Friends and business don't mix. He's my boyfriend who I'm hoping to love and live with for years to come, so the last thing I'm going to do is get business involved in the relationship. If he turns a profit, then great, and we're both better off. If not, then no worries, shit happens, and life goes on. Getting involved in a business together means all the stress, headache, and responsibility that running a business entails slowly encroaches in our relationship, which I won't let happen. Not to mention, I want it to be HIS, not OURS.
I agree. That's actually why he didn't get any presents for his birthday, and these days, I've been quite stingy with my money. I was actually worried as to whether or not he'd be pissed because of how little I did for his birthday. Turns out, he was ecstatic, which was great. Regardless, right now he still knows the value of hard work and money, and I don't want to see that ruined by me throwing around a bunch of cash. Hence what I meant before by "coming down to their level", which you gave me hell for. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
And yes, I know, I know I'm being a hypocrite, because I used to throw tons of cash his way. Live and learn I guess, eh?
Love is love is love. It's one of those things you can't explain in words, but yeah, it's definitely there. Whether or not it lasts, nobody can tell. Honestly though, in several ways, this is more of a genuine relationship than my actual, genuine marriage ever was. I can very easily see Kim and myself happily living together in five years from now, without question, as the dynamics are there. I could never say that with my ex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
Sorry, I should have said, "going to the gate of the temple, to give food to the monks". Same shit. You've been in Thailand alot longer than me, so I actually have a question about that. I understand the food and flowers, but I don't understand the reasoning behind slowly pouring a small cup of water into a bowl, while the monk recites / says whatever. What's that about? The best explanation Kim could give was to fend off ghosts, but I'm assuming there's more to it than that, and he just said that due to the language barrier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
Yep, no worries, and I'm aware of it. Obviously though, that's all I'm willing to post on a public forum regarding that subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Fishing
Wow, long post... anyway, I guess time will tell! This is definitely one of those times in life where I'm happy to be alive though, and looking forward to what each day brings. You don't get that very often, so I'm savouring it while I can, but hopefully it'll last for years to come. Nonetheless, thanks for the lengthy, and well thought out response.
Actually, it's the other way around. I'm going there (Khon Kaen), and hoping to hell he'll be there for me (which I know he will be). :-) I'm going to head to KL for a bit to visit my parents, then goto Lao to get a double entry tourist VISA, which gives me 6 months in Thailand. Then I take the bus to Khon Kaen, and Kim will pick me up there. Then Kim will visit his family and friends while I'm gone, and (hopefully) rent a nice house for us to live in, hookup all the utilities, etc. That's the plan anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
But no, he's actually been awesome in the past couple days. He doesn't seem worried anymore at all. I think that breaking down over the past week, and me being there for him cemented things that much more. That, and I let my guard down a bit more too, and let him in on some secrets as well. Plus I've broken down a bit when he did as well. Like I've always told him, "mua-lia kun sanuk, pom sanuk. mua-lia kun long-hai, pom long-hai" (when you're happy, I'm happy. when you cry, I cry).
The future looks quite interesting, that's for sure. Living in Issan, talk about an adventure. :-)
I think it's fantastic. Yours is the kind of story I come to this board to read about. Probably the best thing this board's had going in the past year.
Good luck!
Won't you get bored without the accruements of Western living around? I guess if you can speak Thai and all it's not too hard, but I always find that I REALLY appreciate whatever morsels of Western stuff I can get occasionally. Would seem boring to live in the countryside without things you're used to around. You guys that do do that I admire. Let us know how it goes.Quote:
The future looks quite interesting, that's for sure. Living in Issan, talk about an adventure. :-)
What do you mean? I'm not going to be living in his mama's village, or anything. We'll be living in Khon Kaen city, which is bigger than Pattaya, and has more than everything I need. I'll have my 7-11, Tesco, a few farang restaurants, and basically all servicing for anything I need. I guess it doesn't have go-go bars, or a well-defined gay scene, but that's not much of an issue for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
But no, not worried at all. Only two concerns are the language barrier, and the fact that there aren't many farangs around, so I'm unsure how the locals will take to me. I've been warned by many people many locals will generally be shy and reserved, because they're not sure how to deal with a farang, even if I am a nice farang. :) The language barrier I'm not too worried about. I should know more Thai than I do, but nonetheless, I know enough to get around, and what I don't know I'm sure I'll be learning quickly. That, and I've lived in enough countries now to be prepared for what's to come; the language barrier, culture difference, etc.
I'm actually really looking forward to it. Pattaya is a great place for a holiday and to party, but it's a horrible place to settle down, have a nice, modest house, be in a stable relationship, etc. Pattaya is no good for that at all, but Khon Kaen is. I can't wait. Just a nice, typical, routine based life. Then go on a holiday once or twice a month during the weekend, or something. That's all I really want.
Doesn't a Yale man know what an accoutrement is?Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
I have to agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnmatt
This "forum" continues to disappoint me with the constant negative attitudes and comments to other posters. It is not only disrespectful to other people's points of view but also childish. Thank god I can log onto gaytingtong.com and converse with other forum members that are mature and respectful.
My Thai partner (from Isaan region - Nongkhai) can not believe some of the comments contained within this thread. Some are downright insulting and wrong. How dare people generalise. Lets start generalising us "farangs" - fat, old, ugly men who just go to Thailand because that's the only place they will get a f*** because they can afford to pay for it!
My Isaan partner and I have been together for over a year and he now lives with me in Australia and he works hard, plus studies, and helps with all the house chores. Yes he came from a poor family etc. but he is determined to succeed. (as with all his Thai friends I know).
Maybe if some of the "farangs" think they will find a life partner by picking something up from a bar wake up and realise that you have to get out into the REAL Thailand to meet the man of your dreams!
Feel better I got that off my chest now :)
Cheers,
Steve
Geez... thinking like an old man already :blackeye:Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnmatt
There's only one generalisation that's relevant to this thread. If you want to know the best thing you can do for an Issan Boy it's the same you can do for anyone else and that's treat them with respect.
Try it and you might end up with some loyal friends.
I'm still in touch with guys from 15 years ago who I meet up with and who's company and continued friendship is very rewarding.
It doesn't matter where they come from or what their background is they're people like anyone else.
Ignore that and you end up with the sort of attitudes that too many have exhibited here.
But then do people actually believe what gets posted here? It seems obvious to me that the majority is just posted to piss other people off and it's best ignored anyway.
YEP! Busted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious
Can I plead being bleary-eyed and that my spell check only suggested accruement? And that I knew when I selected it that I'd f*cked up?
Good advice! And I plead guilty to getting caught up in the whole 'fuck em and tip em' attitude. The thrust of this board SEEMS to be oriented toward the base rent boy scene more than the 'settle down with a bf' one. I think we got the whole gamut here and you never know which attitude is going to come out when the posting gets lively. I suspect there are a LOT of closet romantics that participate really hoping to find their 'Romeo' as BL put it, but hide their frustration of fruitless searches behind crude posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuai-Duai
There are also a lot that have trusted and tried to help these guys but have been betrayed or disappointed, and you get a bit of that. At the end of the day...... is certainly the 'Golden Rule'.Quote:
treat them with respect
What happened to the world class degree in English literature? You need spell check to get accoutrement? I'll let my sister know she's wasting her money wanting to send the kids to an Ivy League school.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
Curious,
Are you REALLY going to stalk me all over the forum (he's actually commented about the misspelling of 'cachet' on SC's HK thread) looking for misspelled French words I use and wonder how someone who graduated 30 years ago with a minor in English Lit could possibly EVER misspell ANY word ever again? Don't you have better things to do with your time? Good grief.
As for your sister's kids, maybe they can study at your knee, so if they misspell any of their words you can correct them personally, on the spot.
JL
PS- I think Texas is a great place to use for a bogus member account to throw people off your Brit tracks, btw.
(Matt, I humbly apologize for intruding with another mini-bitchfest. Stops here)
Gender, Prostitution, and the тАЬStandards of CivilizationтАЭQuote:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2QfdHm3NCj.../Kamihunde.jpg
An airfield in Isaan. ┬╗I can do everything!┬л Not yet fully civilized?
┬╗A recent study showed that prostitution is high on the list of "professions" that modern Russian schoolgirls dream of pursuing.┬лQuote:
Originally Posted by Beachlover
[тАж] The establishment of Western authority rested heavily on colonial discourses that marked the differences between Siamese and Westerners in sexualized and gendered terms. Thus, during the imperial era, Siam was represented by Westerners as feminine, or improperly masculine, and, therefore, as naturally subordinate to the тАЬmanlyтАЭ Western states. The importance of proper gender and sexual behaviour to the тАЬstandards of civilizationтАЭ were made very clear in the Western critique of polygamy and extended into the later international campaign against prostitution. Measuring up to Western standards of gender and sexual behaviour, therefore, became a central plank in Siamese/Thai policy as the country fought to maintain sovereign status and international respect; however, this also generated elite male resistance to the imposition of Western sexual standards. Thus, while polygamy was outlawed in 1935 and prostitution was eventually outlawed in 1960, elite men continued to resist these changes. [...]
Gender and Prostitution in the Early Modern Siamese State
The polygamous marital system of Siam was an integral part of the national and international politics of the tributary kingdoms of Asia [тАж]
Women played an important role in the harem as consorts and wives of the king, producing both heirs to the throne and staff for the state. As well, elite women provided a bond between rulers and between rulers and nobles in a state and inter-state system based on tribute and alliances. Gifts of women as wives from nobles to the king, and vice versa, cemented ties of loyalty and service between rulers of different spheres of influence. The sexual behaviour of elite women, particularly those within the kingтАЩs harem, was closely guarded as their bodies marked the boundaries of the state. Thus, control of womenтАЩs bodies increased with their closeness to the centre of influence, the king himself. One of the earliest available historical sources тАУ the account of a French nobleman, Simon de la Loub├иre, in Siam on a diplomatic mission in the late 1600s тАУ tells us that elite women were severely punished for adultery and promiscuity. The kingтАЩs wives were most strictly guarded, being housed in the inner palace, which was peopled entirely of women presided over by the queen or principle wife of the king and guarded by female guards. The penalty for promiscuity on the part of a member of the kingтАЩs harem was to be sold to a brothel owner or, sometimes, to be killed. 2 Thus, for elite women sexual misbehaviour was punished by being forced into sexual service, although this was most likely understood in terms of concubinage (as discussed below) rather than as prostitution in the modern Western sense of the term.
There was much less control over the sexual behaviour of women outside this immediate sphere of elite power. Marriage and divorce were a matter of relative ease, and virginity was not a requirement before marriage. Women traders exchanged sexual favours as well as goods, often contracting тАЬtemporary marriagesтАЭ with foreigners. While non-elite women appear to have been fairly self-determining in their sexual practices, it is important to remember that Siam was also a slave society. Slavery in Southeast Asia was not the absolute slave system of Europe and America; while there were тАЬabsolute slavesтАЭ in the European sense (usually war captives), there were also a large number of bonded debtors who sold themselves or were sold into slavery and could buy their way out again. In the class system of Siam, women and children were not entirely independent actors: they could be sold into debt bondage by their husbands or fathers. Unmarried female slaves often acted as concubines to their masters or their mastersтАЩ guests.
Commercial prostitution, as opposed to the indigenous practice of concubinage, appeared in Southeast Asia in the late 1600s. 3 According to Barbara Andaya, European disregard for the strictures of fidelity and support of the temporary marriage system rapidly eroded local practices and beliefs, and, with them, womenтАЩs status. Increasingly, liaisons were contracted between European men and marginalized women (e.g., slaves, ex-slaves, and foreigners) who were far from the protections of home. 4 Within this context, the sexual relations between foreign men and local women began to more closely resemble modern understandings of prostitution as a commercial transaction. The proceeds from brothel prostitution were taxed by the king, but prostitution was not otherwise regulated. 5 In the 1800s, prostitution appears often to have been practised in boats anchored in city harbours, the prostitutes consisting mostly of women who had been sold into debt bondage.
Polygamy loomed large in the eyes of Westerners who dealt with the elite in Siam in the mid-1800s. The harems of notables were a matter of much concern (and titillation) on the part of missionaries and diplomats alike. The British envoy Sir John Bowring held numerous discussions with King Mongkut (1851-68) тАУ while negotiating the famous trade treaty тАУ on the practice that Westerners found тАЬexotic, self-indulgent, and uncivilized.тАЭ11 Dr. Dan Bradley, the most prominent American missionary in Bangkok, who had a close relationship with King Mongkut, admonished the king in the Bangkok Calendar (an expatriate paper published by Bradley), saying, тАЬvirtue can never have much sway in Siam, nor any true prosperity, until polygamy is made a crime by the Government.тАЭ12 The enormously popular (in the West) accounts of life in the Inner Palace penned by Anna Leonowens in the 1850s often characterized the despair and cruelty of the lives of women тАЬlocked awayтАЭ in the harem. The tyrannical treatment of women that polygamy was presumed to involve indicated to Westerners a lack of the kind of (gentle)manly virtues associated with Western governance. Such representations of native practices were commonplace throughout the Empire, legitimizing the imperial mission by presenting, as Gayatri Spivak puts it, White men saving тАЬbrown women from brown men.тАЭ13
Polygamy, to Western observers, evidenced the lack of sexual control among the Siamese (men) and, therefore, in the imperialist ideology, the Siamese lack of тАЬmoral characterтАЭ; that is, the quality that underwrote the imperial right to rule. The sexual excess that was assumed to be represented by polygamy was thought to bring about physical exhaustion, the degeneration of moral and physical character, and, therefore, the inability to govern. In the late 1800s, a memorandum from a British official in Siam who was worried about the likelihood of a French takeover read: тАЬThe King, who is honest, after a period of dangerous physical weakness, has regained strength, but is quite incapable mentally, exhausted by women, anxiety and opiates.тАЭ14 According to imperialist thought, such dissolute behaviour rendered rational, scientific, and morally upright rule impossible and, instead, led to an excess of cruelty. Joseph Balestier, an American diplomat in Siam in the mid-1800s, brought together the themes of excessiveness and the inability to rule when he remarked in his report to the secretary of state: тАЬThe present King of Siam is a sensualist having no less than a thousand women in his harem and a devotee of Buddhism with a retinue of forty thousand priests and forty wats or temples ... Upon these he spends the entire income of the kingdom. But though he reigns he does not govern the State, the administration of which is in the hands of rapacious and arbitrary lords who, by a heartless and relentless course towards their vassals and serfs and the Chinese are fast bringing about the utter ruin of the country.тАЭ15 According to this understanding, only the self-controlled behaviour of Western men could produce governance. Siamese masculinity, on the other hand, led to despotism.
While the critique of polygamy appeared to have the treatment of women at heart, in fact it did not. Throughout the colonial world the focus of such critiques was not the status of women. Indeed, Europeans almost universally regarded Southeast Asian women as sexually тАЬloose,тАЭ and the accounts of travellers and traders are full of bawdy stories of Southeast Asian womenтАЩs sexual behaviour. 16 Westerners were never concerned about the actual daily lives of women; rather, as Lata Mani has argued in the Indian case, what concerned them was the fact that тАЬwomen [were] the site on which tradition was debated and reformulated. What was at stake was not women but tradition.тАЭ17 In other words, the critics of polygamy were concerned with asserting the barbarity of indigenous culture and the superiority of imperial civilization. Indeed, when polygamy was finally rendered illegal in 1936 through, under British legal advice, the rewriting of the marriage provisions in the Civil Code, men were given the right to divorce their wives for infidelity but wives were denied the same right. 18 The focus of these reforms, therefore, was clearly not on providing women with more fair and equitable treatment in marriage customs. Polygamy in Siam, as constructed and represented by Westerners, evidenced Siamese inability to rule due to their lack of proper masculine behaviour and sexual control. Ending the practice of polygamy, therefore, was one of the conditions of SiamтАЩs entry into the company of тАЬcivilizedтАЭ nations.
By targeting gender and sexual practices such as polygamy as representative of the essential barbarity of Siamese culture, however, the imperial powers also made gender and sexuality a key terrain of the power struggle between colonized and colonizing countries. Male Siamese elites resisted changes to the polygamous system, even producing a written defence of the practice for the edification of foreigners, defending it as a reflection of Buddhist culture and its particular gender system. 19 Male monarchs made various nods in the direction of changing womenтАЩs status; however, as groups of modernizing Siamese elites themselves came to question the absolute monarchy and the polygamous system in the late 1800s, monarchs began to defend the practice more vigorously. King Vajiravudh (1910-25), despite his strongly nationalist program, which included making Siamese women appear тАЬrespectableтАЭ and тАЬcivilizedтАЭ in the eyes of the world, abandoned his initial promise to remain monogamous and began to argue against the adoption of monogamy. 20 He argued, for instance, that polygamy at least provided protections for minor wives, unlike the system under which the so-called тАЬmodern eliteтАЭ easily discarded their mistresses. 21 The monarchs and pro-monarchy elites, not unjustifiably, read the attacks on polygamy as attacks on the entire monarchical system, and the practice took on a certain intractability and importance for the defence of national identity (as viewed by the pro-monarchy establishment). Nonetheless, the monarchs and elites were well aware that changes to gendered practices such as polygamy and, later, prostitution constituted a key element to entering the company of the so-called civilized nations.
Prostitution in the Imperial Era and the Internationalizing of Western Gender Codes
It is within the context of the struggle over polygamy and gendered practices that the changing policies on prostitution, both national and international, need to be viewed. Beginning in the early 1900s, living up to Western standards of dealing with prostitution and the traffic in women became an important part of the Siamese governmentтАЩs policy with regard to becoming a full member of the international community. While polygamy had been the subject of constant Western condemnation from the early 1800s onward, thus firmly establishing sexual behaviour and gender roles as grounds for differentiating superior and inferior cultures, prostitution was the subject of much less attention тАУ until the turn of the century. In part, this reflected the colonial powersтАЩ own awkward position vis-├а-vis prostitution, which was generally viewed as a тАЬnecessary evil.тАЭ
Leslie Ann Jeffrey. Sex and Borders: Gender, National Identity, and Prostitution Policy in Thailand. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press, 2002. http://www.ubcpress.ca/books/pdf/cha...frey/chap1.pdf
http://www.ubcpress.ubc.ca/search/ti...sp?BookID=1934
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B-52 in Thailand┬╗The best solution was to base the B-52's in South Vietnam or in Thailand. The cost to upgrade an existing Vietnamese Air Base was high, and the security questions were also troubling. U-Tapao had an existing runway suitable for the bombers and the cost for upgrades to the base was minimal.
In January 1967, negotiations between the Americans and Thai government started to base them at U-Tapao. The agreement, reached on 2 March 1967 allowed 15 bombers and their support personnel to be based at U-Tapao, with the provision that missions flown from Thailand would not over fly Laos or Cambodia on their way to their targets in Vietnam.
The first B-52's arrived on 10 April 1967. The very next day, B-52 operations were initiated at U-Tapao.┬л
http://vdha.us/stuff/contentmgr/file...ical_brief.pdf
Peaceful Buddhists help peaceful Christians, or vice versa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd9Zb8JVXCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wiJMc5Z3_M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o8exLFWUy4
[youtube:31eb2nul]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKG_f9_C5-8[/youtube:31eb2nul]
Helpful natives, helpful tourists
┬╗[...] until Thailand was host to 45,000 US army and air force personnel in 1969. The first air strike on North Vietnam was flown from Thailand in December 1964. Three-quarters of the bomb tonnage dropped on North Vietnam and Laos in 1965-1968 was flown out of seven US bases in eastern Thailand. Thai troops were secretly hired as virtual mercenaries to fight in Laos from 1960. Some 11,000 Thai troops went to fight alongside the US in South Vietnam in 1967.
Bangkok was chosen for the GIs' R&R ('rest and recreation tours'), with 45,000 visiting by 1967. New Phetchaburi Road became an 'American strip' lined with bars, night clubs, brothels, and massage parlours. Similar clusters mushroomed around the US air bases. The sex industry was not new; the public garishness was.
Estimates of the number of prostitutes in Bangkok ranged up to 300,000. The interior minister, General Praphat Charusathian, wanted even more because they attracted tourists and boosted the economy. Until the late 1950s, Thailand had no organized tourism industry, only 871 tourist-standard rooms, and only 40,000 foreign visitors a year. In 1959, a tourist authority was formed as part of development planning. In the early 1960s, a new runway was built at Don Muang airport to accommodate jets. Total foreign visitors grew rapidly to over 600,000 by 1970, when tourism was ranked as the fifth largest earner of foreign exchange. The largest group of visitors was American. The mid-1969s saw a frenzy of hotel building which added over 7000 rooms.┬л Chris Baker, Pasuk Phongpaichit. A History of Thailand. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005.
Justin Hall: Prostitution in Thailand and Southeast Asia
http://www.links.net/vita/swat/course/prosthai.html
Who gives a toss? It was a minor error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious
So by your logic, when someone makes a small typo in one post on a message forum where they have hundreds of posts, that means the institution they were educated at is useless and shitty? That makes alot of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious
cdmatt...
I like your spirit, as well as your sense of reality; that if things were not to work out in the future - the adventure will have been worth experiencing any way.
For some (or most), this notion is insane; maybe it's the fear factor, or just plain old common sense...who knows. Understanding that 95% of these farang/Thai relationships fail miserably in the end lays a pretty solid foundation for a debate against such actions, although there are always those who become the 5%, where such a debate would be meaningless.
I had a home built up in Isaan for my previous bf and his family, which, in-and-by-itself, was quite an experience. Things did not work out between us, although the experience can never be erased, nor the good feelings I have knowing that the home I provided will be appreciated by so many - for so long. Am I consumed with sorrow? - you bet I am, but when I stop feeling pain I'll be dead.
Good luck...enjoy each moment...and keep living.
Our lives are simply a collection of experiences...
I think the best answer to the meaning of life was written by Tim Ferris in his book, the Four Hour Work Week... something along the lines of "the meaning of life is to enjoy it and feel good about yourself"...
He goes onto say that feeling good about yourself comes in different forms for different people... some aspire to a happy and prosperous family... some aspire to explore and see the world... some aspire to help others.... some to build large empires... and some want to f*ck as many boys as possible in the last decades of their life (nothing wrong with that).
Matt,
Thanks for the thanks and, I hope, taking what I said in the spirit that it was written.
I think we are actually reading from the same book (most of the time!)
It is "worth trying" beyond any possible doubt. If you don't then you will never know whether it would have worked or not, you will always regret it and, whatever happens, you will be richer for it (at least figuratively!).
Education. Agreed 100% - if he is not interested in it then it is a complete waste of time. Forget it
A Business. I understand keeping friends and business separate - my suggestion of a partnership was because of the idea of funding it as a loan, which I think has even more potential problems. Loans are paid back, gifts are not, and just because you are not going to lose any sleep over whether you get it back or not, maybe he is. If you would like it back, but don't need it back, then be honest and say so.
Love. Why keep putting time limits on it? First you were looking at 2 years, then 3, now 5! My partner is talking about what we will be doing in 50 years, and I am a lot older than you!
Holy water. The closest analogy is that the water is being blessed, becoming holy water. After that you are meant to go and pour it over the roots of a tree of your choice, while remembering about, praying for and thanking the departed and the absent (parents, in particular). It doesn't actually matter too much what it is poured from and to, but if you want to be included you don't need your own water, just to touch Kim while he is doing it (shouldn't be too difficult!).
I gave you hell for talking about coming down to their level - not for trying to see things at his level!
Sorry, but if you "know enough Thai to get around" you should know that "mua-lia kun sanuk, pom sanuk. mua-lia kun long-hai, pom long-hai" does not mean "when you're happy, I'm happy. when you cry, I cry" and would mean nothing to most Thais outside Pattaya! Mua-lia, or more commonly meua-rai, is a question, interrogative, (as in when was it?) - what you are after is simply meua.
Agreed, Steve.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerboy69au
A pity you spoilt it by adding your own rather negative generalisation of "Maybe if some of the "farangs" think they will find a life partner by picking something up from a bar wake up and realise that you have to get out into the REAL Thailand to meet the man of your dreams!".
rather negative generalization?
Sounds like you fall into that rather negative generalization.
I can't believe that anyone would be so stupid (deluded??) to buy a guy a house or a farm!! I mean, what sort of money are we looking at here? $10,000? $50,000? More? Or send monthly payments from abroad. All this for a "bf" you have to pay to stay with you in the first place? That's sad. For a REAL bf; i.e. one who spends his life with you for who you are, not your money, it may be a reasonable proposition, but surely not for a prostitute. Of course, how people spend their money is their own business, I guess....I just can't fathom the reasoning behind it except to think these benefactors are fooling themselves. They are not fooling the guys, that's for sure.
Incoherence? The sexual self-identification has nothing to do with non-sexual and non-monetary interaction. Isn't the intergenerational interest in your personality the biggest possible compliment? Without doubt a well-liked father figure is welcome. And it may also be attractive to know someone who comes from a different planet with a different set of opinions. The absence of the father or a functional equivalent is a problem, but the abandonment of the son by the father is even more serious:Quote:
Originally Posted by jacklipton
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┬╗Abandonment is about the loss of love and a loss of connectedness. To the abandoned adolescent, it involves feelings of betrayal, guilt, loneliness, and lack of self-esteem. Abandonment is a core fear in humans, and this fear is intensified in adolescents.┬л
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┬╗Dad's ashes up for sale on eBay┬л
┬╗My dad is a piece of garbage like that guy's. I haven't seen him in 35 years and he never sent a penny to help my Mother raise me.
┬╗Ebay has a policy that forbids remains or body parts from being sold.
Guaranteed they will cancel the auction.┬л
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┬╗We finally met him and from the first day he lied about so many things. For example he lied about our blood tests - he said it was required for the maintenance payments. However the real story is that he thought my mum was sleeping around and we weren't his kids. In reality he did it so he wouldn't have to pay for us. The blood tests proved that we were his kids. From the first day in meeting him he asked me if I want this relationship and I told him "Of course, I wouldn't be here if I didn't". This signified to me that he wasn't keen on this relationship, as if it didn't matter to him whether we're in it or not.
I have forgiven him for the past. I have accepted him and all of his explanations as to why he left and why he doesn't have time. It seems he has moved on happily with his life without me or that he doesn't know how to love me. I have made many attempts and adjustments to make room for him in my life, he hasn't done the same. I am very hurt and saddened by this. It's been two years now, and we see each other a handful of times a year and talk or email about once a month most of which are initiated by me.
When I have left it up to him to initiate communication, he lets weeks or months go by. It's become painfully clear that I am not a priority to him and I won't be any time soon... My question is now what? Do I continue a relationship with someone just for the sake or having one... or do I walk away because I came searching for my father, and unfortunately, he isn't much a father... to me anyway. I feel like I am being abandoned by him yet again.┬л
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┬╗By the time children reach the early school years, ages six to nine, they can no longer deny the reality of the abandonment. They are extremely aware of the pervasive pain and sadness. Boys, especially, mourn the loss of their fathers, and their anger is frequently directed at their mothers. Crying, daydreaming, and problems with friends and in school are common abandonment behaviors in children of this age.
In the age group of nine to 12, adolescents usually react to abandonment with anger. They may also resent the additional household duties expected of them. There is also a significant disruption in the child's ability to learn. Anxiety, restlessness, inability to concentrate, and intrusive thoughts about the abandonment take a toll and can lead to a drop in school performance and difficulties with classmates.
Feelings of sadness, loneliness, guilt, lack of self worth, and self-blame are common in nine to 12-year-olds. They also tend to have concerns about family life, worry about finances, and feel they are a drain on the remaining parent's resources.
In children ages 13 to 18, the feelings are usually the same as with the younger groups except more pronounced. They become concerned about their own futures. Truancy is high, school performance is low, and they have a distorted view of themselves. In this population there is a high incidence of drug and alcohol abuse and aggressive behavior.
The teen may also withdraw from all relationships, including those with friends, family, and classmates, and become extremely dependent on the remaining parent. Teens may also react by becoming sexually promiscuous at an early age, sometimes to the point of addiction. Sometimes, however, the child makes valuable decisions about their own future and values.
Common Problems: Problems to watch for include trouble sleeping, crying, aggression, deep anger and resentment, feelings of betrayal, difficulty concentrating, chronic fatigue, and problems with friends or at school.┬л
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┬╗I have two sons, 14 and 8. The 14-year-old is from a previous marriage -- his father abandoned him. The younger one's father is around although we are not married. I found the older was getting aggressive towards the younger one because the young one was telling the older to stop saying "Dad" to his dad. I spoke to both, and tried for peace, what else can I do?┬л
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┬╗I never talk about him. I never mention him. None of my friends have ever heard me speak of him. There is no one in my life that I call Dad. That is easily the word I have used the least since I learned to speak.
The one time I have ever seen him, I was only 9 years old. I remember my mother coming to school to pick me up and saying "we're going home so you can change then you're going to go see your dad." I was so innocent. I got so excited. I pulled my favorite lacy pink dress out of the closet and put it on as quickly as possible. I just couldn't contain my excitement. Finally I was going to see him. Finally he wanted to be a part of my life. Oh God...it still hurts so much....
I remember walking into the courtroom. I remember the cold chair. And most of all, I remember turning at the exact moment he entered the room. "that's him" I muttered. I just knew.
Everything after that I wish I could forget. The judge asking why we were there. Him saying I wasn't his daughter. Calling my mother by every name he could think of. The most vivid memory though, has to be the nurses room.
I still didn't understand what was going on. I didn't know why he hadn't hugged me yet, why he didn't act the way all my other friends' fathers treated them. He was so cold to me. It took 2 nurses to hold me down so they could take the blood from my arm. I was crying hysterically. I was only 9 years old. I didn't know what a blood test for paternity was. I didn't even know this man who so coldly told the nurses to hurry up, he had other things to do. But I know, I'll never forget that moment. Never.
When the results came back stating that I was most definitely his daughter, I never saw or heard from him again. Go figure. I'm 21 years old now, and I've yet to meet my father.┬л
That's a bit short-sighted and arrogant, no? This is the common perception though, which is why the majority of conversations with my family now contain a subtle version of, "Geez Matt, are you really that stupid? Whatever though, it's your life...".Quote:
Originally Posted by a447
For one, it would be impossible for a long-term Thai-farang relationship to work, unless there was at least some emotional connection there. Otherwise, it would eventually fall apart. That, and if the Thai is honest and straight forward, instead of being a devious little shithead, I really can't see how this is any different than a woman hooking up with a guy in the West, and the guy being financially responsible. Especially if the Thai has proven over and over that he is actually there for you. If you have a bad day, he'll be right there to give you a hug, and let you know it's ok.
Tell me, how is that any different than the millions of "genuine" relationships that exist? We live together, share our lives together, know the little idiosyncrisies (sp) about each other, go on vacation together, know what each other is doing at almost all times during the day, etc.
And without question, I can say he genuinely loves me, and enjoys having me in life. You're right though, I don't know exactly why he loves me. Does he love me because I'm his ticket to a good life? Maybe because his life is much easier and more worry free now, and he gets to go out and enjoy life more, instead of working 16 hour days for a poverty wage? Or does he actually love me for the person I am, and because I have a good heart? My guess is a combination of all, but I doubt I'll ever know for certain, because I'll never be able to fully remove the financial aspects from the relationship. Our monthly incomes dictate that I'm financially responsible, which I'm fine with. Nonetheless, I don't see how that's any different than a typical relationship in the West. We make each other happy, and that's what matters.
And just because he's a poverty stricken Thai from Issan, why does that make him any less capable or deserving of love, or any less loyal of a boyfriend. If anything, I'd argue it's the total opposite.
I've completely given up trying to explain this to my family though, because they're simply unwilling to comprehend it. So fuck 'em, they can think what they want. Now when the topic comes up, I just say, "just know that I'm happy, and don't worry about the rest".
I should maybe also mention though, I'm not old enough to be his grandpa, and I don't weigh as much as a small truck. I'm 28, have always looked younger than my age, and I'm definitely not gorgeous anymore, but I'm far from ugly as well. When I spend a night in Sunnee, I usually get hit on by a couple farangs, and sometimes they even buy me free drinks, so I couldn't be too ugly yet. And there's only an 8 year age difference between us, so it is actually plausible that we're together.
No.Quote:
That's a bit short-sighted and arrogant, no?
It is different because the relationship is not dependant on one person financially supporting another. In those cases, no money does not mean no honey. If it did, the relationships would be over.Quote:
Tell me, how is that any different than the millions of "genuine" relationships that exist? We live together, share our lives together, know the little idiosyncrisies (sp) about each other, go on vacation together, know what each other is doing at almost all times during the day, etc.
Would he be there if you withdrew your financial support? Would his love alone for you be enough for him?Quote:
If you have a bad day, he'll be right there to give you a hug, and let you know it's ok.
Now, having said all that, I was of the mistaken idea that you were some fat old bastard. It is to those people, who constantly refer to their prostitues as "boyfriends" that my comments were directed. Now I read that you are only 28, your situation is a lot more credible. And I am more than a little bit envious!
Maybe your family will get used to it and understand it after a while. Especially if they get to meet him. Perhaps consider starting to bring him along when you see your parents when you visit them in the near future.
So any relationship where one person is financially supporting another is not a "genuine" relationship, and effectively equates to a paid relationship with a prostitute? .... so in order for it to be a "genuine" relationship both must be putting in a similar amount? .... is that a recent development, or did it also apply in the days when most wives were simply "housewives" and their husbands wee the only ones earning?.... and what of the relationship if one of the two was a prostitute, and they were the one putting in more?Quote:
Originally Posted by a447
And how does anyone know "no money does not mean no honey" until they try it? ...
Rubbish relationships between farangs and working / ex-working boys by all means - many do, some with justification, others with bitterness, but at least make an attempt to justify your condemnation. Simply saying that they are not "credible" relationships because only one partner is contributing financially is hardly a sound reason when that is the case in so many relationships - possibly most, in the more affluent West.
cdnmatt, just asking because I didn't quite get that point before yet, does your bf have any work in Khon Kaen (where you live now, correct me if I'm wrong)? Do you have a work there? Or how do you finance all that?Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnmatt
It might interest you - even though I was one of the guys who started the "generalizing" before - that I was in a rather similar situation. I had a bf too, also from Issan, and we lived really happily together for the 18 months that I stayed and worked in Thailand (Issan first, BKK after). I was then 24 years old.
I finally decided that I had to return to Europe to finish my studies and am now a PhD student.
And during this time, back here, the strangest thing happened.
First, coming to back to the cold, unwelcoming "western civilization", I felt very depressed. I loved my bf very much and had never "fooled around" with anyone while staying with him, and I believe he was equally faithful. So, back in the west, we had our daily phone calls, and the 6 months that I spent here before returning to Thailand for a holiday seemed like eternity to me.
Back with him for the holiday time, I found a few messages on his mobile phone (yea, nosy me, I'm a bad person) indicating he had had contact to other people, probably people that he had befriended in discos or wherever. I was quite hurt but quickly believed his assurances that he loved only me and had just been lonely and "forced" by his Thai friends to go out and have some fun. That far, I still believed in him (a lot).
Then, back here, I met another Thai person from university. He was (and still is) studying Mathematics, and wanted to do some "language partnership" thing, where you teach foreign students your language and they teach you theirs. He was very straight acting and I didn't suspect he was gay, and he was absolutely not my type; what's more, I could practise my Thai :)
We started developing a friendship and I opened up a bit and talked about the difficult situation I was in, being separated from my love and neither feeling completely at home in my country, nor in Thailand. He asked a few questions that really made me think. For example, why it was me and not my bf who "thought a lot" about the future; why, even then as a student, possessing nearly nothing, I sent money to him regularly and was the one who always called and always cared while my bf would very seldomly call me - and so on.
It was then that I argued nearly exactly as you do now - even though we were the same age, I was from the rich country, while he was from the poor, from a family that didn't really love and care for him (7 children, you might know a similar story), a guy that needed my love and attention much more than my money (which was little enough).
My friend helped me to put some things straight that I hadn't imagined before. E.g., that Thai people normally feel ashamed to take money from foreigners; that even if they earn only 5000-7000 Baht/month, they could survive, and proudly so; and so on.
Well, to cut the story short, when I found out from word of mouth that my bf was frequently seen with other men (that was about a year after I had left Thailand), I confronted him about it, and gave him a chance to make it up to me by just putting a bit of effort into making feel he cared for me, which he didn't.
So I finally stopped calling him, and while that was very hard for me, he didn't seem to care too much and called me only about once a month, sometimes asking for money, sometimes just to "check" on me. Let me make it very clear at this point that he really, genuinely loved me while we stayed together in Thailand. Why the things happened as they did happen after I had left, I don't really know.
To make it short, the other guy (the student) is now my bf, and we have a relationship that I didn't think possible with a Thai - a relationship that is totally NOT about money (even though his family is not exactly rich), that is mature to a Thai extent :) (which still means watching Thai series with max volume in the middle of the night ;)
The way he cares for me and for my family, and the way I was received while on holiday with him in his hometown (Nakhon Si Thammarat in the south) shows me how sincere he is about us, and even though I know that he has to go back to Thailand and work at university after finishing his PhD here (such are the conditions of his scholarship), I don't dread the future; I'm sure we'll find a way.
That was a long story. The point that I wanted to get across is that, in my opinion, a relationship is only stable and strong as long as both partners try to contribute to it equally. It goes without saying that if your salary is higher, you might want to shoulder more of the financial burden. That's why I asked you if your bf has a job, because I believe that he should try to contribute as well, for his own sake, to not in the end be just your "pet" (to put it very harshly).
Thanks for reading all this :)