-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Our Jamesy-boy couldn't have been THAT much of a queen - he managed to father 7 children, and it's fair to assume that he didn't hit the pregnancy jackpot on his first attempt each time.
That adds up to a prodigious amount of fanny shagging - the very thought of which is making me quite nauseated. :ymsick:
:ymparty:
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
Our Jamesy-boy couldn't have been THAT much of a queen - he managed to father 7 children, and it's fair to assume that he didn't hit the pregnancy jackpot on his first attempt each time.
That adds up to a prodigious amount of fanny shagging - the very thought of which is making me quite nauseated. :ymsick:
:ymparty:
James was a comlicated man -straight for pay and duty but outraged the court (and the clergymen in particular) with his open gay lifestyle.
He was way ahead of his time and saw no contridiction between his strong religousity and his homosexual love. He even quoted from his bible in defence of his love for the handsome George Villier Duke of Buckingham-his absolute favourite: "As Jesus had John so Have I George" or words to that effect.
He didn't like Sir Walter Tobacco either and took his head partly for the following remark perhaps:
"King Elizabeth has been succeeded by Queen James"
Refer to the motto of the Kings of Scotland and see how much he lived by it when crossed.
I see you've been proposed for the post of Queen of Scots. Hek it's its pushing the caber a bit far but you never know in these crazy times.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Good point giggsy. There have been a number of articles speculating that Scotland, if independent, will get a rough ride in its application to join the EU, especially from countries such as Spain with their own strong separatist movements.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
That only works if you're gullible enough to believe what you see and read in a 100% Unionist and biased media - right through from the state broadcaster to the print media - and of course "gullible" is exactly what they hope you will be.
So, Kommie - it's a pity you're tarring yourself with the same brush as Giggsy in that respect.
*The official position of the Spanish government was given in January 2012 by Jos├й Garc├нa-Margall, the Spanish Foreign Secretary. Asked about reports in the UK press that Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU, Mr Garc├нa-Margall replied that the reports were falso; that's Spanish for 'bollox'. Mr Garc├нa-Margall went on to explain that in the view of the Spanish government, the question of Scottish independence has ningun paralelismo to the Spanish situation; that's Spanish for 'it's nuthin like Spain, ya clown'.
Spanish opposition to Catalan and Basque independence is based on a clause in the Spanish constitution which refers to Spain as one indivisible nation. The Spanish cited a similar clause in the Serbian constitution when they refused to recognise the independence of Kosovo from Serbia. Unless Unionists can cite a clause in the UK constitution saying that the UK is one indivisible nation, they should callarse with the Spanish threat. That's Spanish for 'shut it'.
Unionists are asking us to believe that Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU in order to discourage Basque and Catalan nationalism, when the Spanish government itself says that the Scottish and Spanish situations have nothing to do with one another. Then there's Gibraltar, the existence of which means Spanish conservatives aren't naturally disposed to do Westminster any favours on questions of sovereignty. As a successor state to the UK, Scotland has a share in Gibraltar and we could tell Spain we'd swap it for parts of Benidorm :))
It should also be noted that mariscos obsessed Spain, the country with the highest consumption of sea-food in Europe, depends on the access to Scottish waters allowed it by Scottish EU membership in order to keep Mercadona and Hipercor shelves stocked with bacalao, gambas and langosta. They're hardly likely to put that at risk just to keep in Westminster's good books and ensure continuing supplies of baked beans and Melton Mowbray pork pies.*
http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...h-independence
*Newsnetscotland
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Little did I think that stirring Scotty's sporran would evoke a several hundred word response. I guess as the day of failure for the referendum draws closer the cries of despair grow longer and louder.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
It's a little bit rich for conservative forces in the UK to be using Scotland's supposed isolation in Europe as an argument against Scottish independence when those self same people are themselves proposing that the UK leaves the European Community. In the (unlikely I think) event of a 'yes' vote for Scottish independence Scotland may (ironically) end up the only part of the present UK in the EU for I have no doubt that an independent Scotland would be welcomed into the community with opened arms.
Mr Cameron opened up a can of worms in bringing up the issue of the UK pulling out of Europe-"beware what you wish for" comes to mind- his conservative backbenchers and the UK Ind Party have taken up the running now with renewed vigour.
The French foreign minister Mons Fabius recently told a group of British businessmen "if Britain decides to leave Europe we will roll out the red carpet for you". Cameron has hedged a bit with his new proposal for a referendum on the "renegotiation" option. But the German minister Herr Westerville quickly stated that Britain could not "cherry pick" and stay in at the same time.
Could Hadrian's wall be be given a new lease of life -keeping the barbarian euro-using Scots at bay?
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguest
Could Hadrian's wall be be given a new lease of life -keeping the barbarian euro-using Scots at bay?
One can only hope.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
1. After a YES vote, Scotland will be using the POUND.
2. After a YES vote and the subsequent loss of the Scottish pro-EU votes, there is absolutely no chance of the rump UK voting to stay in the EU.
This will be the ultimate irony - after having the Unionists screaming hysterically about Scotland being thrown out of the EU (no such mechanism exists), in the event of a YES vote and Independence - Scotland will be IN the EU and the rump UK will be OUT!
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
1. After a YES vote, Scotland will be using the POUND.
2. After a YES vote and the subsequent loss of the Scottish pro-EU votes, there is absolutely no chance of the rump UK voting to stay in the EU.
This will be the ultimate irony - after having the Unionists screaming hysterically about Scotland being thrown out of the EU (no such mechanism exists), in the event of a YES vote and Independence - Scotland will be IN the EU and the rump UK will be OUT!
I'm not sure that a future ind. Scotland using the pound sterling is guaranteed.
Only 3 regions outside the Uk and N.Ireland can use the pound and they are classed as DEPENDENCIES. They are: The Isle of Man, the states of Jersey and the states of Guernsey.
I presume that an Ind. Scotland will not be a "dependency" of the UK like Man, Guersney and Jersey so why do you think that the use of the pound will be automatically granted?
Having looked the matter up I see that though Scottish and N. Irish banks can issue pounds for their own regions since 1932 there is a limitation on the issuance of the notes i.e. the approval of the UK parliament.
I'm interested to know how this matter can be resolved in the event of a "yes" vote.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Thaiguest, I do admire the fact that you seem genuinely interested, so I'll try to be as helpful as I can on these matters:
1. Post-Independence use of the ┬г sterling does not require the Westminister Govt to "grant" permission. We do not require permission to use something we already (partially) own. It's like you and I buying, furnishing, and maintaining a house together - I don't need your permission to enter the house at any time and if we decide to part company I will want my share of the house (and everything that is jointly-owned within it) whether that share be be 10%, 50%, or 90%.
2. Therefore, Scots own a share in the ┬г - and a share in the Bank of England to which we have contributed for over 60 years. The ┬г sterling is an asset of either the UK or the BoE (take your pick) - either way we own a share of that asset. In the event of a YES vote, negotiations must take place to divide up the assets of the UK, and in those negotiations Scotland will be demanding the retention of the ┬г sterling within a formal currency union. That's a red-line issue for Scotland, and is widely referred to as "Plan A"
3.The Westminster Govt is bound by the Edinburgh Agreement (with the Scottish Govt) to respect the result of the Referendum and, if YES, to work co-operatively to implement it. If however they decide to break that Agreement and to block a Currency Union, that does not prevent Scotland unilaterally using the ┬г sterling. Take it from me - this is "Plan B", although it is not being officially acknowledged (yet). There is also a "Plan C" and a "Plan "D" - but these will not be revealed for political reasons.
4. So, either way, it IS guaranteed that Scotland would be using the ┬г sterling immediately post-independence, because it is simply not within the power of the UK Govt to prevent it. The ┬г sterling is a fully tradeable, convertable currency. Ireland used the pound sterling as its currency from independence in 1922 until 1928 when the Irish Punt was introduced (which was essentially the ┬г sterling in a nicer wrapper) - so there is a precedent!
5. The worst the UK Govt could do is to refuse a formal Currency Union which would cause Scotland (and the rump UK!) some transactional difficulties. In retaliation, Scotland would refuse to take on a population share of the 1.6 trillion UK debt (projected figures for 2016). Hopefully it won't come to that and with the voting over, sense will prevail.
One more thing - you mention Scottish Banknotes: these are printed under licence from the BoE and the issuing banks (Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland, and Clydesdale Bank) have to guarantee their notes by depositing the equivalent amounts with the BoE. In other words, every Scottish banknote is already 100% covered by deposits at the BoE.
Ditto with the NIrish issuing bank/s. Of course, if there was no currency union, we'd have to have those deposits back.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Interesting points.
I find the following points in particular persuasive;
Pt 3) That the UK Parliament has already agreed to "work cooperatively" in the case of cecession by Scotland.
Pt 4) The Irish case as a precedent. Most of Ireland left the union by agreement in 1922. The treaty must have covered the currency issue because the pound sterling was used in S. Ireland alone up to the 1928 and up to the 1970's alongside the Irish pound.
Pt. re deposits. Nobody likes to give back deposits. Ever try to get back a deposit from a Thai landlord? Probably the same in Westminister.
Good luck with the vote but I think it will be a 60/40 in the wrong direction for you.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Thaiguest, you may be right about the result - or I might be right in the other direction - only time will tell.
One thing's for sure - if it's a NO, the UK backlash will be ferocious.
:-ss
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
Thaiguest, you may be right about the result - or I might be right in the other direction - only time will tell.
One thing's for sure - if it's a NO, the UK backlash will be ferocious.
:-ss
I think no backlash.
The gentleman in black velvet is no longer toasted in Scotland except among a few in the isles and highs.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
I see Sean Connery has said from his homes in Greece and the Bahamas that he would return to Scotland if there was a yes vote. Listening to Scottishindependence-guy he must be shitting himself. ;))
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
There are an estimated 900,000 Scots living outside Scotland who do not get to vote (mind you the ones living in England seem to be tramps/hobo's so no place of abode) and 500,000 English people living in Scotland who do have a vote. That is going to be the difference between a no vote and a yes vote. You've really messed it up there Scotty a bit like the Lib Dems with their proportional representation vote. L-) L-) L-)
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
I thought your position was that the English wanted shot of us?
If that's the case, surely these "English settlers" should provide an extra 500,000 votes for YES.
Make your mind up.
As for Sir Sean Connery (the best James Bond by miles) - if he wants to buy a residence in Scotland after a YES vote, that's up to him - maybe he fancies a Scottish passport.
I'd be far more impressed if he'd enfrachise himself by doing it BEFOREHAND - like Alan Cumming.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
It doesn't matter what I think since I don't have a vote in the referendum but as for non Scottish people living in Scotland the words turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind.
You still haven't answered the question of if Scotland does vote "yes" do you think the Shetland isles should have a vote to join Norway or in fact any other country of their choosing ?
Also in the event of a "no" vote would you vote for coming out of Europe in a referendum or is it just England you want rid off?
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by giggsy
It doesn't matter what I think since I don't have a vote in the referendum but as for non Scottish people living in Scotland the words turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind....
Well, that's your opinion/assertion and I'm sure you'll be very happy together. As for the "turkeys" - if there's a YES vote and they don't like it, we are not planning to close the M74 or our airspace, so they are perfectly free to leave at any time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giggsy
...You still haven't answered the question of if Scotland does vote "yes" do you think the Shetland isles should have a vote to join Norway or in fact any other country of their choosing ?...
I did answer it - I said quite clearly that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Shetlanders want to have such a referendum (really you're just making stuff up now).
You would do well to remember that the only reason Scotland is having a referendum is that the SNP won a landslide in the 2011 election with the Referendum as the central plank in their manifesto.
So, the position is that if the Shetlanders do indeed want a referendum, then they need to find candidates willing to stand on that platform and then to elect them! That's how democracy works! Once they have done that, they can discuss a referendum with the Government of an independent Scotland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giggsy
...Also in the event of a "no" vote would you vote for coming out of Europe in a referendum or is it just England you want rid off?
It's the UK state we want rid of. As for having a referendum on leaving the EU, hang on a minute, haven't the Unionists (like you) spent the last 2 years telling us we are going to be expelled anyway :)) - again I say to you, make your mind up.
Again, the way to go about securing a referendum in an independent Scotland would be to elect people standing on that platform - unless of course we copied the UK by having a totally spineless Prime Minister who bent over for a Party (UKIP) who had never won a single UK parliamentary seat!!
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
It's the UK state we want rid of.
All these 19th century mentalities still wittering on about the nation state. All of that should have been killed off by the First World War whose centenary we "celebrate" this year. But we still have pathetic creatures ranting about their little piece of turf and its importance. No better than Suthep and Thaksin.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
It's jaw-dropping that someone who (presumably) originates from Australia - a former colony and Dominion of the UK which transformed itself into a very successful Independent sovereign state - makes an attack on the principle of self-determination.
Further, since you say that you thought a desire for self-determination (19th Century mentality as you put it) died with the 1918 armistice, I feel obliged to point out that Australia did not finally free itself from the UK state until over 20yrs later. I'd say there's more than a little confused thinking there.
I'm not sure whether you're a deliberate hypocrite - or just a cretin. (No offence)
:o)
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
There's a very interesting article about Irish independence - and why Salmond has stopped citing it as a model for Scotland -n a recent New Stattesman. In summary, the Irish aiming for self-rule were desperate to get out before the UK introduced broad reform measures for social benefits http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics ... l-time-low
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
[quote=scottish-guy]It's jaw-dropping that someone who (presumably) originates from Australia - a former colony and Dominion of the UK which transformed itself into a very successful Independent sovereign state - makes an attack on the principle of self-determination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrisbaneGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by "scottish-guy":2ksj4n9q
It's the UK state we want rid of.
All these 19th century mentalities still wittering on about the nation state. All of that should have been killed off by the First World War whose centenary we "celebrate" this year. But we still have pathetic creatures ranting about their little piece of turf and its importance. No better than Suthep and Thaksin.
[/quote:2ksj4n9q]An interesting use of "the end justifies the means" argument.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Well, Kommie, I read the "very interesting article" and I simply can not agree with your "summary" of it at all. All I took out of it was that Ireland was, at the point of Independence, so keen to escape from the UK that a cut in public spending was a price well worth paying. Either I missed something or you hallucinated something.
Further, the fact that the author (John Bew) lumps Norway (whose central bank is struggling to handle their enormous wealth fund) in with Ireland and Iceland, made me choke on my porridge. After a howler like that, I trust you'll forgive me if I decline to be as interested in his opinions as you obviously are.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
Well, Kommie ... I trust you'll forgive me if I decline to be as interested in his opinions as you obviously are.
Oh c'mon Scotty, don't you realise that we're all here just to kick you in the ghoulies under that kilt of yours? And it's going to be even more fun when the referendum fails and you're down on the ground? I've always believed in kicking a man when he's down.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Well, Kommie - we don't know what the referendum result will be, do we? Talk is cheap as they say
All we know is that after 2 years of solid scaremongering from the NO camp, polling for a die-hard LABOUR/UNIONIST newspaper has the YES vote is at its highest level yet:
YES 45% NO 55%
So, the first thing to note is that the 30% NO lead has vanished like snow off a dyke.
The momentum is all one-way, and a 5% swing in 6 months will be more than enough for victory (since YES supporters are far more likely to actually vote than NO supporters).
Time will tell, one way or another.
:ymparty:
PS: I've always found that the kind of person who "kicks a man when he's down" is invariably the kind of person who didn't have the balls to kick him when he was standing.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
So, the first thing to note is that the 30% NO lead has vanished like snow off a dyke.
Lesbians everywhere will find this offensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
I've always found that the kind of person who "kicks a man when he's down" is invariably the kind of person who didn't have the balls to kick him when he was standing.
Oh I've never claimed any desire to be a hero, merely a winner.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by kommentariat
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
So, the first thing to note is that the 30% NO lead has vanished like snow off a dyke.
Lesbians everywhere will find this offensive...
Only those who are cocaine addicts!
:ymdevil:
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by kommentariat
There's a very interesting article about Irish independence - and why Salmond has stopped citing it as a model for Scotland -n a recent New Stattesman. In summary, the Irish aiming for self-rule were desperate to get out before the UK introduced broad reform measures for social benefits
http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics ... l-time-low
The newstatesman link has an interesting take on Irish independence I have to say. Needs further debate but interesting.
The irony is that the country that has retained its native language most successfully-Wales- and thereby the essence of its culture- has given up on the strident nationalism of the 60's and 70's and seems quiet content living cheek by jowl with Mother England.
The gaelic language of the Scots (the original name for the Irish) is on the verge of extinction in the native country ( "independent" Ireland) and in west and insular "Scotland" to which the Irish gave the name,
To me the lynchpin of culture and identity is language. Wales has approx 1 million native speakers. Scotland and Ireland can now claim approx. 200,000 native gaelic/gallic speakers at best.
The decline of a language is a complex process I know but the least that can be said is that independence alone has not saved the Irish language-the 3rd. oldest written language in western Europe after Greek and Latin.
The truth can be bitter.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaiguest
....The truth can be bitter....
Indeed it can - and the truth is that whilst the number of older Scots Gaelic speakers are in decline due to centuries of suppression by successive Unionist governments, there has been, (due to money invested by the SNP-led Scottish Govt), a small but steady rise in the number of Gaelic speakers under 20.
What has to be understood is that whereas in Wales there has long been a promotion of the Welsh language, e.g. with dual-language road/public signage and a Welsh Language TV channel since 1982 - in Scotland, Gaelic has been deliberately suppressed by the Unionists, was actually banned after 1745 (alongside mass-clearance of the native speakers from their land), was not taught in schools (in fact was actively discouraged) - and a Scots Gaelic TV Channel did not arrive until 5 yrs ago.
To give you an idea of how suppressed Scottish identity has been, I imagine you'd find it quite astonishing that it is only since the SNP victory in 2007, that Scottish History was restored as a formal subject within the national school curriculum!! Prior to that, Scottish schoolchildren were taught more about the Battle of Hastings than the Battle of Stirling Bridge.
Scots Gaelic is never going to be a majority language in Scotland - but at least now there are increased opportunities to learn and develop it amongst those who are interested, and with the unstoppable progress towards independence there has been and will continue to be a re-flourishing of Scottish identity and culture.
http://nationalcollective.com/
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Regarding the views of Paul Bew.
He is a respected historian in Queens University in Belfast, but he is also, as is well known, a staunch Ulster Unionist. He was a close adviser to David Trimble in the run-up to the Good Friday Agreeement, and he is still a UUP supporter I believe (and actually he writes more often for the Spectator than the New Statesman).
Not saying that being a Unionist his views should be ignored, but his biases should be kept in mind.
The Ulster Unionists are in a state of horror at the thought of Scottish independence as (out of the four UK regions)they are culturally closer to Scotland than England. They worry, I think, that Scottish independence would create the suggestion that as the two major cultural groups in Norther Ireland look to southern Ireland and the Scotland respectively, why is NI in a Union with the London govt. rather than Edinburgh or Dublin?
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonanTheBarbarian
Regarding the views of Paul Bew.
He is a respected historian in Queens University in Belfast, but he is also, as is well known, a staunch Ulster Unionist. He was a close adviser to David Trimble in the run-up to the Good Friday Agreeement, and he is still a UUP supporter I believe (and actually he writes more often for the Spectator than the New Statesman).
Not saying that being a Unionist his views should be ignored, but his biases should be kept in mind.
The Ulster Unionists are in a state of horror at the thought of Scottish independence as (out of the four UK regions)they are culturally closer to Scotland than England. They worry, I think, that Scottish independence would create the suggestion that as the two major cultural groups in Norther Ireland look to southern Ireland and the Scotland respectively, why is NI in a Union with the London govt. rather than Edinburgh or Dublin?
I agree that being a unionist colors the viewpoint and his take may be not hold much water but it's interesting.
To say that "Ulster" Unionists (not all the counties of Ulster are in N. Ireland) are culturally closer to Scotland is an over-simplication.
The NI Unionists are close to Lowland Scotland, not to Gallic Scotland.
The Lowland Scots derive from England and would historically have nothing to do with the Gaelic language, highland kilts, bagpipes etc until Walter Scott became the darling of Victorian Britain.
Now even the royal family like to do the highland fling in a kilt though their antecedent the Duke of Cumberland did more to wipe out Scottish culture during and after Culloden than perhaps any other individual.
Interestingly a section of the Unionist population in NI speak a language called "Ulster Scots"-a dialect once spoken in Lowland Scotland (and maybe still is) having no connection with Gallic/Gaelic. It's now being fostered under the Good Friday Agreement getting equal recognition as Gaelic.
My head is in a spin with all this nuance.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
There's another "nuance" as far as the Ulster Unionist Party and other similar parties are concerned - sheer religious bigotry.
Whilst there may be some respectable, moderate people within the UUP and DUP and within the ranks of their supporters - it is difficult to find much evidence of them. What we routinely see instead is a bunch of angry, shouty, bigots being egged on by other elected bigots in suits. The truth is that both the Ulster Unionists and the Democratic Unionist Party (in NI) are sustained by bigotry, their connections to the anti-Catholic Orange Order, and both have historic links to "loyalist" terrorism.
In relation to Scottish Independence the UUP and DUP are promoting what they see as the Protestant agenda, which is "God save the Queen" "Three cheers for the Red, White, and Blue", "No Surrender", and "Fuck the Pope". However, the more these odious organisations become involved, the more the YES vote increases, because anything these retards are against, must therefore be a good thing!
Right-minded Scots have no truck with their agenda, but unfortunately it finds traction with (an increasingly small) minority of Scottish knuckle-draggers who retain or manufacture some bizarre attachment to the Ulstermen (not to mention the BNP and other racist organisations) and some rather obscure battle fought in 1690.
Evidence of these wonderful examples of human intelligence can be seen in the clip below (note the Red Hand of Ulster flags, Union Jacks, and the England football top wearer)
This is the unacceptable face of BRITISH nationalism - prepare to be shocked both by the bile and hatred that spews out of those who call themselves "the people" and the sheer lack of any education, not to mention grasp of any facts. It is quite amusing to hear them "threaten" to move to England if Scotland votes YES. The reality is that the vast majority of Scots would welcome their self-exile and would encourage them to make it permanent.
[youtube:3myrcbe2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR53bcBDOGg[/youtube:3myrcbe2]
I
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Very strange that these pro-union people would use the ancient gaelic symbol -the Red Hand of Ulster as part of their regalia.
The Red Hand was and is the symbol of the Ui Neill Clann (including the MacNeills of Barra) and was carried into battle by the O'Neills against the English many times especially during the 9 years war to the war cry: "Lamh Dhearg Abu!".
To present times; my contacts in Scotland tell me that many of the Catholic faith in Scotland will be voting "no" to independence (ironically) because of the biggotry you mentioned.
I'm told that they fear that in an independent Scotland the signicant anti-Catholic population there will have too much power. The feeling is that Westminister ,though more distant and English based, will be a more neutral administrator when it comes to dealing with localised sectarianism.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Thaiguest, I suggest that you change your "contacts" as they seem to be giving you some skewed information.
Firstly, there is no evidence whatsoever of an "anti-catholic population" in Scotland - unless you count some neanderthal supporters of a certain football club as significant?
True, Catholics are in the minority - but non-Catholic does not equate to anti-Catholic by any stretch of the imagination. You might as well say that there is a "significant anti-Hari Krishna population"!!!
Secondly, all the evidence is that, contrary to what your contacts tell you, the Catholic vote in Scotland is pro-YES.
See this from a Unionist newspaper (there is no other kind) just last week:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...tland.23704996
In any event, we do not want or need religion brought in to the debate - which is exactly the motivation of the UUP and DUP, and why their views are utterly disregarded by the vast majority.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
In any event, we do not want or need religion brought in to the debate - which is exactly the motivation of the UUP and DUP, and why their views are utterly disregarded by the vast majority.
Even though you just ripped the shite out of the entire UUP / DUP membership who are of course mainly protestants, your own lets say strong dislike of them equals anything I see from them that's equally hate driven I fear (even though I don't disagree with you that most of them are 100% arseholes - but that goes for BOTH SIDES HERE which is something you fail to address at all I see - oh and as for utterly disregarded views etc - aye except by the people who actually voted for them all i.e. the majority of unionist voters here so not quite utterly disregarded now is it.
Anyway I'll leave you all to it, religion and politics - as boring as shite and a topic best avoided at all costs in my view, especially on a gay forum thats meant to be fun but hey if that's how you get your kicks knock yourselves out, you should move here as there's any amount of people here who just love and live to have the same type of conversations here over and over and over again, which is half the reason I go to Thailand so often !
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
NIrish, what us under discussion here is not the politics of Northern Ireland per se, but the intervention/interference of the UUP and DUP in the Scottish referendum debate - which given that 99.9% of their supporters and members will be ineligible to vote in the referendum, causes me to question their motives. Do you find that unfair or unreasonable?
My argument is that, as far as their contribution to Scottish politics is concerned, their sole motivation at this time and in this debate is one of religious bigotry. Feel free to advance other reasons for their intervention - I can't think of any. From where I view it their "Unionism" is almost entirely borne out of historical and ingrained religious bigotry - and when I consider their close ties with other sectarian organisations in Scotland (such as the repugnant Orange Order), it only strengthens my opinion
I have no interest in N Irish politics whatsoever unless those involved in them seek to stick their nose into matters which really are none of their business. If they choose to do so, then they therefore place themselves under scrutiny.
As for the "other side" - I do not take sides - but I will say that the only comments I have heard expressed from the Republican "side" (e.g. via Sinn Fein) is that the Scottish Referendum is a matter for the people of Scotland. As the republicans have not intervened/interefered in the Scottish referendum, I saw no need to involve them in my post - which was entirely a response to the interference.
For the avoidance of doubt, when I say that nobody sensible is interested in the thoughts of the UUP OR DUP, I mean nobody in Scotland and on the issue of the forthcoming referendum. Obviously their views and those of the Republicans find traction with, and are relevant to those in N Ireland- but they are utterly irrelevant and unwanted in the context of the Scottish independence debate.
For the further avoidance of doubt, I do not make my comments from a partisan stance. I was brought up as a Protestant and having had the capacity to form my own opinions for over 40 yrs (including observing events on the island of Ireland over that period) I am a confirmed athiest and can assure you that I despise all organised religions quite equally and abhor ALL political parties who use religion as a sectarian means of winning support.
As for your dislike of political subjects being discussed on a Gay forum, well it is of course your privilege to dislike them.
I, on the other hand, find these discussions a welcome distraction from gossiping about the cock sizes of assorted male prostitutes and discussion of how little some members feel they can get away with paying them. Not that I'm suggesting that you find such topics interesting but you must admit they do regularly feature on this forum. It was myself who asked Surfy to place the discussion in the Open Forum so that those who do not wish to participate would not be encouraged to do so because it was in a more popular sub-section.
:-T
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
The contribution of the last two posters is interesting.
Scottish guy rejects my contention that there may be an (ironical) anti -independence vote among many of those who claim to be of the Catholic faith in Scotland.
N Irish weighs in with charges of uneven treatment of one side in the N Ireland sectarian conflict by Scot Guy and laments the introduction of sectarianism into the debate on this "open discussion" forum.
You know what?
Sectarianism needs open discussion as part of the cure for the social disease in question. England has a much larger sectarian issue to deal with now vis.a.vis radical Islam versus the rest than it ever had since the intra-christian conflicts of the 17th and 18th centuries.
Yes, Scotland has a sectarian issue to deal with-an intra-Christian conflict- partly imported from Ireland but not exclusively. It raises its ugly head in sport and politics all the time-admittedly in particular locations only.
Many of the "hard men" of N Ireland "loyalism" have fled to Scotland as their "Rebublican" opposite numbers have fled to S. Ireland.
I think that the few "pink" followers of this topic can take all this in without too much of a hissy-fit.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Thaiguest - I really, really wish your "contacts" would give you some accurate, up-to-date information.
Any "sectarian issue" there may be in my country is exclusive to the West of Scotland - and to two particular football clubs.
The "green side" (in football) may well sing Irish republican songs and wave the Irish tricolour (which I frankly find bizarre and I cannot comprehend why one would wish to wave the flag of a foreign country - even allowing for the history of that football club) but I do not regard that as being on the same level of bigorty as their "blue" rivals who sing about the joys of being "up to our knees in fenian blood" throughout the football match.
On the East coast, there is very little (if any) sectarian element to the Hearts/Hibs rivalry and there is nothing at all in the north or south of the country. What we are talking about here is a bunch of in-bred, indoctrinated nutters whose behaviour is an affront to, and condemned by, the vast majority of the population.
Fortunately, in the new politics of Scotland, such behaviour as I have described above now attracts a prison sentence, although there is (unbelievably) pressure to overturn this law.
Now, you made a statement that the Catholic vote was a "NO" vote, did you not?
I countered by linking you to a newspaper article of no more than 2 weeks old, which reveals the exact opposite.
If you are going to continue asserting that you are correct on this matter, would you please produce some evidence rather than making unsubstantiated claims and citing as your sources some un-named third party "contacts"
Just one other thing - you introduce the "anti - Islamic" dimension of sectarianism.
I would simply point out that this is peculiar to England (where they have a far higher immigrant count), but you might also want to consider that there is a certain English football team who routinely sing and chant anti-Semitic songs and chants. I'm just making the point that sectarianism in the UK is not confined to Scotland, but at least we are doing something about it.
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
I swore I wasn't getting drawn into this discussion any further - and I'm not, but just let me add that as someone who played in a cabaret band here at least four nights a week for well over 15 years and has played everywhere from top hotels and classy venues right down to the hardest UDA / UVF / IRA clubs and Orange and GAA halls etc, with the former coming complete with armed men in balaclavas on stage during the bingo making announcements about up and coming events in their communities and also my returning within the last year from a weeks trip to Vegas where I joined a mate "for the Craic" along with an organised group of Celtic supporters clubs, who assumed ( incorrectly) because I was there, wearing one of their tee shirts and was "obviously" one of them and one of "the boys" that ( as I've said before) BOTH sides I can assure you are and can be just both as hateful, bigoted, sectarian, mentally dumb and full of bile towards each other and their respective religions as each other and those quaint republican songs you speak of also contain lyrics that can easily turn ones stomach in terms of inciting murder and other such acts etc - but that is of course the nature of some of those types of songs - again on both sides.
Anyway, this is my last comment on the matter as I've no wish to get drawn into this type of conversation, but it would be nice for just "some" balance perhaps SG as whilst actually I mainly but not totally agree with most of what you say about the DUP etc ( who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire) and also have nothing but comtempt for the knuckle draggers here of which there are many ( on both sides) that really DOES stretch right across the spectrum here and to single out just one side really paints a false picture - IMHO opinion of course, but I should state that as I live here most normal decent thinking here would agree with me that both sides here are as bad as each other and need to knock it on the head - not just one side.
Ok, that's me all done in this topic, enjoy the rest of your discussion.
Ps SG - ya can expect yer windies put in by 6 clack the night !!!!! :-) ( which I'm sure YOU know is a joke just in case anyone else doesn't !)
-
Re: New bar opened in old Topman,the Scotland Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottish-guy
Thaiguest - I really, really wish your "contacts" would give you some accurate, up-to-date information.
Any "sectarian issue" there may be in my country is exclusive to the West of Scotland - and to two particular football clubs.
The "green side" (in football) may well sing Irish republican songs and wave the Irish tricolour (which I frankly find bizarre and I cannot comprehend why one would wish to wave the flag of a foreign country - even allowing for the history of that football club) but I do not regard that as being on the same level of bigorty as their "blue" rivals who sing about the joys of being "up to our knees in fenian blood" throughout the football match.
On the East coast, there is very little (if any) sectarian element to the Hearts/Hibs rivalry and there is nothing at all in the north or south of the country. What we are talking about here is a bunch of in-bred, indoctrinated nutters whose behaviour is an affront to, and condemned by, the vast majority of the population.
Fortunately, in the new politics of Scotland, such behaviour as I have described above now attracts a prison sentence, although there is (unbelievably) pressure to overturn this law.
Now, you made a statement that the Catholic vote was a "NO" vote, did you not?
I countered by linking you to a newspaper article of no more than 2 weeks old, which reveals the exact opposite.
If you are going to continue asserting that you are correct on this matter, would you please produce some evidence rather than making unsubstantiated claims and citing as your sources some un-named third party "contacts"
Just one other thing - you introduce the "anti - Islamic" dimension of sectarianism.
I would simply point out that this is peculiar to England (where they have a far higher immigrant count), but you might also want to consider that there is a certain English football team who routinely sing and chant anti-Semitic songs and chants. I'm just making the point that sectarianism in the UK is not confined to Scotland, but at least we are doing something about it.
Thanks for the reply.
I did not say that the Catholic vote was "no". I wrote "many of the Catholic faith will be voting "no" to Scottish Independence" for the reasons I outlined.
I have to admit that my evidence is anecdotal but comes from solid business type people there who have no axe to grind and they generally predict a 60/40 "no" vote overall.
It will all come out in the wash in the end.