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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BonTong
Just spotted this:
Junta to purge Pattaya of prostitution
http://prachatai.org/english/node/6942
Well, heard that stroy before but this line echoes some points already raised about the media in this thread
It's been touted (sic) before and not happened. Yet combined with the stated intention to turn Pattaya into a more family-oriented destination I have a feeling it will carry more weight this time.
Back to Soi Twilight. There is a report on another Board of a police raid in the Soi last Saturday. They appeared to target at least X-Boys and Fresh Boys go-go bars. The writer subsequently visited Fresh Boys and discovered only about 10 boys working and the show shortened. He believes this is a result of that bar employing a large number of Vietnamese and Cambodians.
There are no posts about the scene in the Soi on following evenings. But it completely bears out what BonTong said about the bars depending increasingly on foreign sex workers. Judging from some chats I have had on the apps, it appears there are also now more foreign guys working in the massage spas.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BonTong
Soi Pratuchai, and other bar zones in Thailand, will continue for sometime yet, but will rely increasingly on foreign guys as they can't find Thai's to do the job, anymore than the construction industry can, or the food processing or fishing industries can. The business will turn increasingly to the dark side as more human traffickers move in.
I've written about Alex Kerr's book "Bangkok Found: Reflections on the City" before and his very perceptive comments not only on Thai culture but also his views on the Thai sex business. Given the comments in this thread, I think it's appropriate to repeat some of his writing. Kerr who admits in the book he is gay has lived in Asia for most of his life - in Bangkok for over 20 years. The book was published in 2010 and is based on his observations and discussions with a wide variety of academics, professionals and ordinary Thais. This is an exceedingly well thought-through and illuminating book, nothing like the cheap novels of the lives of go-go boys.
Quote:
For whatever reason, Bangkok unquestionably has the most extensive and international gay scene in all of Asia . . . Yet despite the festival atmosphere at Silom, Thai society is hardly the open sexual paradise that many foreigners imagine. This is another of those illusions propagated by the constant surface smile of sanuk . . . In fact there's a strong streak of puritanism running through modern Thai society. Austere Chinese morality, which frowns on sensual indulgence, plays a role, due to the large share of Bangkok's population with Chinese roots. You can also see vestiges of colonial Western values from the 19th century which Thailand took to heart in the process of modernization . . .
Underlying this is a sense of revulsion that society at large expresses against the more obvious signs of Bangkok's booming sex business, It gives the city an unsavoury air, and is a source of embarrassment internationally . . . Ironically, openness to foreigners works against Bangkok in the eyes of the world. Prostitution is just as large a business in Japan as it is in Thailand, maybe even larger, but it bothers foreign visitors and journalists much less, if at all. One doesn't often see an outraged article about the scandalous sexuality of modern Tokyo. This is because most of the sex is not accessible to foreigners; they just don't see it. In fact, much of Thai prostitution is also hidden . . . and the customers are in the vast majority Thai, not foreign.
I have what I call "the Weimar Republic theory" of Bangkok. As dramatised in the movie Cabaret, there was a brief moment of sinful freedom in Berlin during the Weimar Republic (1919 to 1933). It was the era of Kurt Weill's bittersweet music and Christopher Isherwood's novels and stories. By the mid-1930s the Nazis had stamped it out, and eventually all that remained was a legend of "Berlin in the 20s." Those who experienced it spent the rest of their lives telling others of the wild days that were now gone forever.
In time, the more outrageous forms that prostitution takes in Bangkok will disappear. For those things, Bangkok stands far out on the scale of what most cities in the world see as acceptable. I don't believe it will last. Slowly but surely we are seeing a clampdown, and it's a matter of time before the "sinful" Bangkok we see today fades away into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did.
Attachment 4286
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobsaigon2
Dreamboys staff had a meeting recently at which it was announced that Soi Pratuchai will shut down within 2 years. That's all I know. Cannot provide any details or more info.
Elsewhere http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showth...everyone/page5 you write:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobsaigon2
AsDaRa's suggestions above are, unfortunately, too close to home for me as I experience my 76th year.
1) Some of them must now be dead .... Does not apply to me.... yet
2) Some are now too old to bother posting (it is all less important, have seen it all, have read it all).... Applies to me
3) Some have lost their libido (or most of it, if they still can get an erection), so they have quit visiting Thailand and do not post anymore.....Applies to me. Doctor says I can't travel because of weak lungs. I say, what's the point of travel if I can't do anything once I get there?
All the best to my younger colleagues on SGT. Enjoy while you can.
So I wonder, if you don't bother much about the scene and don't travel any more, how do you know? Second or third hand information? Chinese Whispers?
Quote:
Cannot provide any details or more info.
Does that mean you don't know more ore that you can't say it here?
As for the manager of Dream Boys retiring, someone else will take over as long as it's profitable. (I haven't been in years and have no plans to go, but judging by the forums, the bar is full. Whereas other bars are largely empty - own experience from nowadays just a few visits per year.)
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fountainhall
Would you regard that as middle class?
No. That is why I asked the question because someone else said the middle class is rising, boys not need to prostitute themselves anymore. While I have the idea the average salary is about 10.000-12.000 baht. Hardly middle class standard in my opinion, also not for Thailand. I think the real middle class is still relatively small.
I read also here in this thread that many normal jobs require a bachelor or master degree. How many Thai can afford such an education? There can't be that many with such a degree. Or does the government pay for it? Then the number with such a degree must be rapidly increasing indeed.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I remember my first trip to Thailand in 1981 when I was 22. As an American I worked in Saudi Arabia where most of the ex pats I worked with were in their 50's...and straight. They used to show off their pictures and brag about their exploits. Oh, and since most of them had been working overseas for decades and or had been soldiers in the Vietnam War they all had tales of how great the sex tourist market used to be in Thailand.
So then I made my first stopover. It was only a one night stay....where I ended up spending the whole night at some massive girl bar/hotel. It obviously was not what I wanted but I figured, "What the hell....something is better than nothing!" After a very wild evening I ended up stopping into a bar for a couple of drinks where I met and became friends with the owner, a black American Vietnam War veteran who stayed in Thailand after his tour of duty and opened a small bar with girl go go dancers. I always stopped in this bar and touched base with him about the bar business in Thailand and he would always wax romantic about the "good ol' days." He eventually made me an offer to take over his bar...but that was in 1985.
So, after that trip I "KNEW" that I wanted to go back to Thailand and I just "KNEW" that someplace in that big sprawling city was a gay mecca...and I was determined to find it!
On my second trip I allocated a week to finding the gay mecca in Bangkok. As my first trip was just a stopover I had booked a hotel by the airport and on the second trip I booked a room at the Montein Hotel as it was much more centrally located. The first night I arrived I pulled out the phone book and called a male escort service and told them what I wanted. That was a flop but at least I did get him to show me the gay mecca! He got a meal and a tip and then I sent him on his way!
So, I offed a boy at Barbiery Coast and we hit if off and we then spent the next four years of regular visits exploring Thailand and also the Bangkok, Chiang Mai, and Phuket gay nightlife. Back then whenever you talked about Pattaya all you heard was "Pattaya no good." or "Pattaya finished."
The point being that every decade there seems to be a real doom and gloom about sex tourism in Thailand. Yet, here it is 2017 or 36 years after my initial visit to Thailand and everyone is still talking doom and gloom. I just cannot help but think, "Same, Same, but different."
Next year I turn 60 and while I have only gained 10 lbs since my first visit to Thailand I am definitely not going for sex. I am going to spend time with the guy I offed over 30 years earlier. After 30 plus years of letters, photos, then emails and now skype (oh and long periods of no communication), its time to meet face to face. Not real sure how that will work out...
He left the bar scene, served his military duty, went to college got married had kids and now grandkids...and while I have talked to everyone in his family I am just "a friend." Or a variety of typical Thai terms for a member of the family....
Sex and Thailand just go hand in hand. Oh, the bars change, the locales change but then again everything in life changes. Everyone focuses on the disruptive nature of the internet and all the dating apps available. Then there is the resentment toward the Chinese tour groups.
Well, the internet has changed sex around the world. You went from being able to view porn for the first time in the mid 90's to cyber sex, to now you have sites like Chaturbate and Omegele, that allow you to be a porn star in your own bedroom. These sites have created a whole generation of guys who now claim to be bisexual, gay, and straight...or now, "not into labels." In Columbia you can actually rent rooms that have the computer the camera and the furnishings to put on quite a show....there is no telling where that leads.
So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Good post, TaoR. I enjoy reading the reminiscences of "senior" board members.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Well, Bob, having read all I want to read about the Tartawan Hotel (I believe I stayed there numerous times back when it was part of the Best Western chain) and now reading about where has everyone gone? I figured I might as well post my memories...it can't hurt! :)
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TaoR
I remember my first trip to Thailand in 1981 when I was 22 . . . So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.
I beat you to Thailand by 2 years but was a year or two older. Like you I was on a 24-hour stopover en route from Paris to Hong Kong but I had been travelling in the USA and Europe almost non-stop for 3 weeks.
I knew that the gay district was near Suriwong but friends said I had to see the Grand Palace and the Wats. Stupidly I agreed to their idea that I stay at the Royal Hotel at the top of Sanam Luang. After all, I thought, I can see the Palace in the afternoon and it won't take long to get to Suriwong in the evening. Good idea, had it not been for jet lag and Bangkok's traffic! My flight from Paris was one of the bus-stop flights so common in those days - Paris, Dubai, Delhi then Bangkok. Plus I made the stupid error of taking the Thai Air limousine minibus service which proceeded to stop at 7 other hotels (including the Montien which was the area i really wanted to be in) before reaching the Royal 2 1/2 hours later.
I was so exhausted I decided I'd take a quick nap before heading to the Grand Palace. Mistake! That 45 minutes ended up as 4 hours. End of the Palace visit! Still feeling like a zombie, I grabbed an early dinner at the coffee shop and went out on to the street to get a tuk-tuk to Suriwong. No empty tuk-tuk to be seen! Eventually a tout approached me. Did I want a girl? No! A boy? Yes. By this stage I didn't care what this was going to cost. I was not going to waste my entire 24 hours. Miraculously a tuk-tuk appears and we take a long, long drive. I had no idea where we were going. Eventually we ended up in Lang Suan and an old rickety Thai-style house down a short driveway. I protested that i wanted to be in Suriwong (not knowing then that it was nearby) but was told to go in and have just one drink. If no good, the tout would take to Suriwong.
The Stockholm bar was a dump. About a dozen fully clad boys seated around who on my entering were ordered to get up on stage where they just stood and looked at me. No-one else was around - just me. I ordered a beer whereupon the mamasan sidled up to me asking the usual question: "Which one do you like?" To be honest, I liked them all but had no idea of what to do in go-go type bars. I felt somewhat shy and stupid. Sensing my difficulty, she whispered in my ear: "Take 2!" My mind ran amok with visions of paradise down here on earth.
That indeed is what I did. After showering, the boys and I went into a private room upstairs, disrobed and started to get down to it. I was nervous but one of the boys helped me get involved. I was just amazed that this sort of open, fun sex was available and happening to me.
I never returned to Stockholm and had no idea how much longer it survived. On my next visit 9 months later for a proper holiday, I discovered the Apollo go-go bar in Silom Soi 4 and loved it. For some years it was my regular bar. The boys were always such fun! Then I found My Way, Twilight, Barbiery and the new start-up saunas like Volt and Obelisks . . . by then I was the typical sex tourist with the great good fortune of living only 1,000 miles away in Hong Kong.
But that was then. And of course times changeI I do agree with TaoR that millions of gay Chinese will be looking for tourist destinations in the years to come. But he and I have different outcomes. I just do not see the Chinese - like their Singapore, Taiwanese and other Asian counterparts - flocking to go-go bars to off Thai guys. Nor do I see them using the apps to find sex with Thai guys. Some will, but to the vast majority Thailand, if the gay scene does in fact survive, will become a sideshow, a sexual Disneyland where you look and enjoy the experience, but you do not take part. I know too many Chinese and other Asians who already visit Thailand but will never dream of offing a Thai guy. They'll enjoy massages, go to saunas, take in a show if they still exist - but they will not act like the westerners used to in olden days. Same sex drive but very different cultures!
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fountainhall
I've written about Alex Kerr's book "Bangkok Found: Reflections on the City" before and his very perceptive comments not only on Thai culture but also his views on the Thai sex business.
Thank you for sharing. Alex Kerr has it spot on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TaoR
I am going to spend time with the guy I offed over 30 years earlier.
I enjoyed reading TaoR's post, but don't share his optimism. I too am in regular contact with some Twilight guys from 15+ years ago. Back when those in the business were friendly, nice guys who recognised what they were doing was not the best job but they were determined to make the most of it and enjoy themselves along the way. I'm not sure the same holds true for the boys of today. As far as nice Thai guys working in the bars, we seem to be reaching the bottom of the barrel. It's now only about money and many are too amped up to care about anything.
What I do see is the younger friends of the boys I knew now pursuing a different business model. They have no interest in short times with an old farang. They go to BKK and seek out encounters in five star places with affluent Singaporean, Malaysian or even Chinese Businessmen who they can milk for the long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TaoR
So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.
I doubt it. Many Thais hate Chinese tourists even more than Farangs! I suspect this business will move to Cambodia, the Philippines and to an extent Vietnam.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Fountainhall, Travel in the days before the internet.... Reading forums I cannot help but think that the internet just might be ruining travel; I mean the searching and guessing and hoping...and then the moment of arrival! :) I remember the Apollo went there nightly. I sometimes wish I had been a "butterfly" but I am not. I just got lucky when I finally stumbled upon Nirvana being Barbiery and while the numerous boys on stage didn't get my attention a waiter eventually did...
We just clicked...
So every night off we went dancing and partying the night away....
One night he got a group of his buddies together (both guys and girls) and we went to Pizza Hut for pizza and beer. So here I am in Bangkok late at night eating with a bunch of Thai sex workers. One girl we had seen earlier shooting ping pong balls across the stage totally naked. Another guy had his wife with him and he also had the boy with him who he performed with during the big cock fuck show....I mean what a collection and they were all sharing their stories with me....deciding which farang nationality was better and what was wrong with the others...
Americans came out on top because they were the easiest to please, took showers, and paid the most because sex made them feel guilty! I just laughed because here I was talking shop talk with a bunch of sex workers.
Another time we had a couple of his friends over to the hotel and we were drinking beer and my guy tells me that one of his friends had never had sex with a Farang and he wanted to get fucked by a Farang....
I just looked at him and said, "Gee so now you are a mamasan at a bar with Farang boys for Thai customers?" I then asked him what the tip would be for a short time?
I don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...but I know that the warnings of its demise are clearly not true...someone is going to figure something out...
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TaoR
Fountainhall, Travel in the days before the internet.... Reading forums I cannot help but think that the internet just might be ruining travel; I mean the searching and guessing and hoping...and then the moment of arrival! :) I remember the Apollo went there nightly. I sometimes wish I had been a "butterfly" but I am not. I just got lucky when I finally stumbled upon Nirvana being Barbiery and while the numerous boys on stage didn't get my attention a waiter eventually did...
I don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...but I know that the warnings of its demise are clearly not true...someone is going to figure something out...
I entirely agree about the internet. It has made sex far easier - no question. But is it more fun now? I think not.
We must have at least seen each other in those Apollo days! I was very much the butterfly in my first years - perhaps too much so. But what gorgeous flowers!
As for the future, I agree there will be plenty of sex. I just believe it will not be the in-your-face commercial variety that we have got used to over the last few decades, In addition to the views of other Asians about Thais, as BonTong points out many Thais will steer clear of many other Asians.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
You won't be seeing go-go bars here in Vietnam during your life time. Gay bars, yes. There are already some, discreet, though I imagine even the quiet ones need to satisfy the Vietnamese BIB every month. I could see gay businesses springing up in Cambodia; Philippines seems a bit far afield unless you're coming from the US and at present the boy bars there have not progressed beyond the total rip off business model. If Soi Twilight is demolished for the sake of a new hotel or office block, perhaps some of the bars would relocate to the Golden Cock/Nature Boys street (never can remember the name of that), but unfortunately it does look like the apps are going to replace the bars. However, no app can replace the excitement of walking into a go-go bar for the first time and seeing 20-30 young Adonises on stage.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobsaigon2
Philippines seems a bit far afield unless you're coming from the US and at present the boy bars there have not progressed beyond the total rip off business model.
I used to visit Manila regularly in the 1980s when it was a fun place for gays - despite the horrors of the murdering Marcos dictatorship. Coco Banana and 690 Retiro Strip were must visit fun places. Although I have been back on only a few occasions since that decade, the commercial scene certainly seems to have gone far into reverse gear.
That said, Nirish recently posted here that he had a whale of a time in Cebu. The boys were falling off trees to have sex with him and not a peso requested. But that is not a commercial sex scene like the topic of this thread.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I really don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...
I do know that I am going back next year and basically going to "finishing" up my visit to Japan (I have been twice before but both times my trips were cut short by business demands). I am going to visit Vietnam, Cambodia, and China which are places I could not experience the first time I was traveling through Asia. Then I will re visit Thailand and the Philippines...
I have changed and the places I am visiting have changed. There is no more staying up all night partying while also have sex three times a day in my future. I also once and for all figure out for myself why I always favored Thailand over the Philippines. I mean I had some really great sex with Filipinos (but that was mostly with guys I was friends with, straight guys, who I worked with in Saudi Arabia (lots of stories there). But the ones at the bars were always really hot looking in the bar and seemed so willing until you got down to business....disappointing is the word...
It just never made sense....but that I would assume would be a whole different thread. Maybe it all has changed now.
Never know for sure unless you go and find out for yourself.
I cannot expect to travel through some time machine and expect Thailand to be as I remembered because in all honesty the concept of "sex" has changed so much even in the United States and it has to have changed in Thailand too...
Not real sure what the business model would be...I mean when the kid who's family lives down the street has a "room" on Chaturbate and his videos pop up on various porn sites I can't help but shake my head in disbelief when he tells me he is not in it for the money but loves the performing and friends he makes! I cannot understand the attraction of having sex with other people via video cameras....
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TaoR
I have changed and the places I am visiting have changed
You have hit the nail on the head - at least as far as those in our age range are concerned - "I have changed". We all change over time. I could no more be the sort of sex tourist that I once was than turn into a money boy! I do hanker after the old days in Thailand because they were so exciting and such fun. Whilst I still enjoy seeing cute young Thai guys, I now prefer their company over a drink or two. Besides, I have had the luxury and enormous privilege of spending most of my career in this exciting part of the world. I cannot imagine what life would have been like without being exposed early on to the cultures and societies of so many fascinating countries at a time they were each emerging in their own ways from the rigours of disastrous wars.
Unlike you, I have been based exclusively in various Asian countries which I have got to know well, including sexually. Like you, I have travelled the world for business very regularly but I have rarely had sex anywhere other than in Asia. Only in Sydney did have I had great times - and that's because I was always with Asians! I guess I am just the typical rice-queen!
As regular posters will know, my other Asian favourites - countries as well as their young men - are Japan and Taiwan. I discovered Japan within a few years of arriving in Asia and my first true love here was Japanese. Having since then lived there, returning many times has been a special joy. More recently I feel especially at home in Taiwan to the point where I would happily move to retire in Taipei if I had the funds to do so.
So I now have no personal interest in what happens to Soi Twilight. I am just thrilled I was around when it was starting up and during its long heyday. It sure was fun!
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Very nice thread. Love reading about the old days, way before my time.
Also give some more info please. What was the off fee in 1980, what the short time price in 1980?
How did you find out about Thailand as sex paradise without Internet? You happened to cross a newspaper article and reading it thought: "I want to go there"? Now it is common knowledge, but was it already common knowledge in 1972, 1980, 1990?
What more has changed? Go go bars operated the same way as they do now? Immediately being asked for a drink? Lot of pressure to choose boy? Or was it more relaxed? And since in the past more farangs, was there more competition? Did you miss the oppertunity sometimes to off the boy you wanted for a couple of days in a row because you were too late for him?
Please more detail, certainly where the differences are compared to now. Thanks in advance.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I'll try and provide some answers.
I can't recall what i paid those two boys who entertained me on my Stockholm visit. It was all so new, I had such a great time and no doubt I overtipped. Thereafter from my discovery of Apollo and Twilight (Apollo was situated in Silom Soi 4 above where Sphinx is now) I think I paid Bt. 500 for a short-time. The Baht was then fixed at US$1 = Bt. 25 (it remained at that fixed rate till July 1997) and so the equivalent was $20. Plus a Bt. 500 note was so much easier to take out than 4 x Bt. 100 notes. I remember paying the same in the early 1990s. I cannot recall what the off fee was. In Apollo if you paid Bt. 100 or so to use the short-time room upstairs, I don't seem to remember any off fee. I am sure TaoR will have a more accurate memory.
What I do remember was the catwalk that snaked through the middle of the small bar and the boys stripping completely naked around 9:00pm - as they did in Twilight. All seemed to have fun and happily welcomed everyone who came into the bar. I do remember the Apollo barman, a student named Ruangsan who I was infatuated with for ages and frequently just sat at the bar to chat with him, but he was not offable - at least I never succeeded! LOL
I knew absolutely noting about Thailand and Bangkok's sex scene until I moved to Hong Kong. In fact, really strange though this will seem, when I was offered the job in Hong Kong, I did not even know where Hong Kong was! My knowledge of the geography and history of Asia was minuscule. Then having landed in Hong Kong and got my first copy of the Spartacus guide, I realised Bangkok was a place I had to visit.
I come from Britain. When I was a student and just starting to work, there was never any talk whatever about Thailand with or without sexual references. Asia was too far away. Of course we had heard about the Vietnam War but again that blighted country seemed planets away! With the wages paid at that time, we could never consider going there.
The atmosphere in the bars was certainly far more relaxed than today. The mamasans might come up and ask what you'd like to drink, but it was polite and with little pressure. Similarly there was no pressure to have a second drink, but the prices were so low I usually had at least 2 or 3 drinks as well as buying 1 or 2 for a few of the boys. Same with choosing a boy. No pressure. Twilight was run by two older transvestites who manned the bar and might suggest this boy or that one. But little more.
You are wrong in thinking there were more farang at that time. There were less. As has been mentioned before, in Bangkok's go-go bars there were usually more Thais than westerners. Attendance during weekdays was pretty slim, but packed at week-ends. Twilight had a little older guy who would get more and more seats as the number of customers kept increasing!
As for offing a boy two nights running, I never went two nights running. On the few occasions I really wanted to meet a guy, I would tell the mamasan when I would next be in the bar and she would ensure my chosen companion was there for me.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Thank you. Love reading this. Best thread in ages
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
This is a late reply to Christian:
So I wonder, if you don't bother much about the scene and don't travel any more, how do you know? Second or third hand information? Chinese Whispers?
It is only during this past year that I had to end my travels to Bangkok. I maintain contacts in Soi Twilight so I am up to date.
Cannot provide any details or more info. Does that mean you don't know more or that you can't say it here?
I cannot say more because I don't know more. The Dreamboys staff member who told me did not provide details because the owner of Dreamboys did not say anything beyond "Soi Twilight closing in two years".
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
To really understand the bar scene of Thailand in the 1980's you have to understand what it was like to grow up gay in the 1970's. Yes, you can read about the gay scene in New York and London but very few of us lived in New York or London.
Every gay bar I visited while in college was a very dark, dirty, dreary place. Forget the rainbow flag and the gay pride....sullen would be a much more apt term.
Then you find yourself in Bangkok....Barbiery and Apollo were always packed. Mostly Asians as Fountainhall stated. It was a small scene but a scene full of young guys, happy guys. Drink prices were cheap and you always found yourself buying drinks for others. Which in turn only added to the party atmosphere.
It was a very polite non aggressive scene. The mamasan/captain at Barbiery was quite the gentlemen and he nurtured and protected "his boys." I remember the off fee was 300 Baht.
I remember I tipped my guy 1500 Baht the first night which was long term. He was so nervous when we left Barbiery that I took him out to eat and then we walked around talking and hit up a couple of other bars before heading to the hotel room...he was definitely new to all of this
There was absolutely no discussion of tip amount and it truly was whatever I wanted to pay.
I remember my guy had a cousin who also worked at Barbiery and he was an absolute stunning young man. He was so high in demand that he was pre booked a week in advance. Forget comparing sex work to entry level construction work because this young man was offed every night sometimes two or three times a night.
I seriously doubt the sex trade is that well paying nowadays.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I think you have to remember also that by the start of the 1980s the gay liberation movement in the west was still very young. I thought Hong Kong might be more open - it wasn't. Hong Kong still had the old Victorian law against sodomy and so being gay was technically illegal. Not that that stopped lots of guys having gay relationships. But all behind closed doors. There was just one gay bar on Hong Kong Island named Dateline. To get to it, you had to go down a long flight os steps. This was always brightly lit. The reason? A police unit had rented an apartment opposite and photographed everyone who left the bar. Incidentally, that law still exists in Singapore and Malaysia!
So Bangkok - and to a certain extent Manila - were oases of sexual freedom. Everyone could relax, shake of all restrictions and just have a good time. Although I enjoyed both Apollo and Twilight, Barbiery was certainly the jewel in Bangkok's go-go bar crown. I'm not sure when it opened but I vividly recall my first visit with friends around 1985. It was located directly across Suriwong from Soi Twilight. On the ground floor was a bar with about 6 stools. To get to the go-go bar, you had to go through that ground floor bar, up the stairs at the end and then go through a door on the right.
Barbiery was not a large bar, somewhere between Twilight and Apollo in size. in the middle were two end-to-end small stages. On the wall ahead and the one to the left were banquettes. On the right was the quite small bar area and then another larger space (as though a wall had been taken down) where the boys had a gym and got ready before going on stage, At the weekends, many dozens of single seats would be crammed in so it was sometimes difficult to move. I guess there must have been about 100 boys, in those early years mostly twinks. The main difference between then and now as mentioned earlier, was the sense of fun that permeated all the proceedings. The boys were having fun, the audience had a great time and even the barmen smiled! The shows were far more interesting than nowadays, always ending with the most amazing sexual acrobatics on ropes, swings, ladders etc. Some bars still have some of that, but none is on the same level as the old Barbiery.
Boys were being offed the whole time, presumably one reason for there being so many! After a few years, the management added some bigger, slightly older guys but the bar retained its popularity right through the 1990s. Then, for some inexplicable reason - either because the building owner would not renew the lease or the management thought moving to a larger space would generate more profits - it closed on Suriwong and over to the 3rd floor of a new building across from Nature Boys (down the soi from the Mango Tree restaurant and near The Golden Cock bar). This was the start of the end. The new location was way too big, had none of the atmosphere of the old Barbiery, the spark had gone out of the boys - no-one seemed to care any more. I think it was less than two years before it died.
I often wonder if Barbiery had stayed in its old location and if Twilight had not totally changed its format under its new renovated title of Hotmale, would they still have attracted good crowds in the new century? A moot point since we'll never know the answer. Also it was around this time that the Thaksin government started its first Social Order Campaign with the aim of curtailing the 'entertainment' industry. Whenever the gay go-go bar phenomenon finally dies, I expect most will look back at this time as the beginning of the end.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AsDaRa
I think the real middle class is still relatively small.
Was thinking some more about this. Perhaps one of the best measures of affluence is the number of vehicles on the road, and the numbers of new car dealerships that have sprung up.
Fifteen years ago you could get anywhere in Chiang Mai in 10-15 minutes or so. These days you are sometimes talking that long to do 100 metres at peak times. Although vehicle purchases are largely made on credit, the enormous increase in numbers is a clear indicaor that the average man in the streets has more disposable income. Same out in the villages, 15 years ago you saw very few vehicles. Now every second or third house has a brand new pickup outside (at least in Northern Thailand).
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BonTong
Was thinking some more about this. Perhaps one of the best measures of affluence is the number of vehicles on the road, and the numbers of new car dealerships that have sprung up.
Fifteen years ago you could get anywhere in Chiang Mai in 10-15 minutes or so. These days you are sometimes talking that long to do 100 metres at peak times. Although vehicle purchases are largely made on credit, the enormous increase in numbers is a clear indicaor that the average man in the streets has more disposable income. Same out in the villages, 15 years ago you saw very few vehicles. Now every second or third house has a brand new pickup outside (at least in Northern Thailand).
Good point. But then the average income in Thailand can not be 12.000 baht. It must be higher. What do you think the average household income is for a family which owns a car?
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Fountainhall,
Thanks for your comments about Barbiery, which was the first Thai go-go bar that I visited [in December 1989].
In its heyday in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Barbiery was a great bar with many very attractive guys, both hot muscular types and twinks. It sometimes had about 50 or 60 guys available. Many were so attractive that it was hard to make a choice.
The customers were gay men, although heterosexual couples occasionally came to gawk at the show -- and at the gays.
Isn't the present owner of Dream Boys the former owner of Barbiery? I wish he would run a bar similar to Barbiery. Perhaps he now has to depend on the Chinese tourists to make a profit....
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Isn't the present owner of Dreamboys a German? I don't recall a German being around Barbiery - but I was always more interested in what was going on on stage than in who might be running it.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Once in a while I stop by GBT. I resigned from the forum long ago, so I can't communicate with anyone over there. I was surprised to see that my post (#25 above), was called "insightful" and used to start a new thread on GBT. No mention is made of the original writer. Not important. Not a copyright matter. Just annoying.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I was watching a man on TV last night who I presume to be the Prime Minister. He mentioned a special program for Thais earning under B40,000/annum. If that figure is correct, (it was translated into English) I would say that the supply of young men will be forthcoming for a while yet.
I examined the callouses on my 29-year-old from last night's hands and he said working at the bar was just too much easier.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
werner
Fountainhall,
Thanks for your comments about Barbiery, which was the first Thai go-go bar that I visited [in December 1989].
In its heyday in the late 1980s and early 1990s, Barbiery was a great bar with many very attractive guys, both hot muscular types and twinks. It sometimes had about 50 or 60 guys available. Many were so attractive that it was hard to make a choice.
The customers were gay men, although heterosexual couples occasionally came to gawk at the show -- and at the gays.
Isn't the present owner of Dream Boys the former owner of Barbiery? I wish he would run a bar similar to Barbiery. Perhaps he now has to depend on the Chinese tourists to make a profit....
That was the first go-go bar that I entered. I had to catch my breath. The were boys there for all tastes.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bobsaigon2
I was surprised to see that my post (#25 above), was called "insightful" and used to start a new thread on GBT. No mention is made of the original writer. Not important. Not a copyright matter. Just annoying.
Quite agree. It's purely a matter of courtesy which that poster has not shown. It's also usual to post a link which is a courtesy to the owner of the other site. One of my long posts has been copied on to gaythailand but with a proper link and credit.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fountainhall
Isn't the present owner of Dreamboys a German? I don't recall a German being around Barbiery - but I was always more interested in what was going on on stage than in who might be running it.
On my earliest trips to bkk there was a bar called "Dreamboys Barbiery" in the location that FH describes for the original Barbiery, it was owned by the same people as Boys Bangkok and Blue Star Sexy Circus
All 3 bars eventually merged into the Blue star premises that is now Boys Bkk/Dreamboys
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Who is the present owner/manager of Dreamboys [in Bangkok]?
Some forum member have referred to the German owner doing this or that. Why can't he create a great go-go bar similar to that of Dreamboys Barbiery, which many people, including myself, remember fondly. Has he become too dependent on the Chinese tourists that come to gawk at the shows?
Does this owner/manager ever interact with customers? I am not sure that I have ever seen him there, although I have sometimes seen a short Caucasian behind the bar area. Have forum members ever talked much with him? [I could even taught with him in perfect German, albeit with a Swiss accent.]
In the past, the owners of several of the best gay venues interacted and socialized with customers, and sought their comments. Such was true of:
(1) the elegant transgender who ran [owner?] Adam and Eve in Pattaya about 25 years ago. [Is that the name of the huge message place that sometimes had almost 100 handsome guys...] She would come around, introduce herself, chat, and even offered me free drinks....
(2) the owner of Matsuda Super Lex in Bangkok [He spoke limited English, but was always friendly and welcoming.]
(3) the owner of Coffee Boy in Chiangmai. [He went out of his way to make guests feel welcome. I once stayed there several days because he was so nice, even though the inn/bar was not conveniently located..]
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
werner
Some forum member have referred to the German owner doing this or that. Why can't he create a great go-go bar similar to that of Dreamboys Barbiery, which many people, including myself, remember fondly. Has he become too dependent on the Chinese tourists that come to gawk at the shows?
Those of us that recall the "good old days" have to remember that times, Thai society, economics, tourism and so much else has changed. I'd love to see another Barbiery-type gogo bar. But it just won't happen. It was a venue of its time and for its time. That time is over.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I recall when Barbiery occupied several floors of a building near Golden Cock. There was even a lift to the third floor entertainment area. Extremely busy, crowded. To this day I remember stepping outside the bar area into the landing to get the lift, and came across two cute young boys totally naked as they applied body paint on each other. If only I could travel back to those days, and stay there, never aging. My only hope now is for a fun filled re-incarnation. There will be changes to the gay scene in Thailand. Inescapable. They've already started. And probably not much to the liking of the 60+ group.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
The building was opposite Nature Boys and about 20 meters down the soi from Golden Cock. I can't have gone there until a year or so after the move because I don't recall it ever being crowded. Maybe that's because we never visited on a Friday or Saturday, but on Sundays it felt too big and empty. Sadly I also felt the ambience of the old premises was totally missing. The stage being at one end rather than in the centre certainly didn't help because those sitting at the bar end were quite far away. I also had the impression the average age of the boys by that stage had risen quite a bit.
I suppose the location must have seemed an obvious move given there were several other well-known bars around that area. But I don't think it lasted there more than three years there, if not less. By its last year it had completely lost all of its former glory. I seem to recall that Super Lek was just as big but its stage jutted out much more into the audience and there was more seating around the sides making it feel more intimate. But it too eventually died. I guess that many of the punters used to being in or very close to Soi Twilight probably couldn't be bothered with the short trek down to the new location. And it was lousy for short-term tourists who may not have had much clue how to get there. Besides there were by then more go-go bars in Twilight itself.
Had it stayed in its old location or moved into Soi Twilight, I wonder if it would have lasted longer? My hunch is that it would.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
werner
Does this owner/manager ever interact with customers? I am not sure that I have ever seen him there, although I have sometimes seen a short Caucasian behind the bar area. Have forum members ever talked much with him?
When I walk past, I sometimes see a Caucasian (always the same) sitting outside IN FRONT of the venue. I haven't talked to him, I only know from the forums that he is German and the manager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fountainhall
The building was opposite Nature Boys and about 20 meters down the soi from Golden Cock.
A gogo bar "Night Boys" was there and closed around 2012, now it's a Chinese/Korean/Japanese (?) restaurant.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Old portly german sitting outside is the owner....his BF used to be a gogo but now only occasionally does strip shows starting off in a cop uniform....most incredible body. He alsoowns (part owns ?!) dj station on soi 2.
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
werner
Why can't he create a great go-go bar similar to that of Dreamboys Barbiery, which many people, including myself, remember fondly.
Perhaps he's decided he doesn't have the time or the inclination or even - heaven forbid - he's made the assessment that such a business model is no longer viable
Quote:
Originally Posted by
werner
Has he become too dependent on the Chinese tourists that come to gawk at the shows?
That's a value judgement on your part. You'll recall the myth of the goose that laid the golden egg
Quote:
Originally Posted by
werner
In the past, the owners of several of the best gay venues interacted and socialized with customers, and sought their comments
Another value judgement. If the owner doesn't socialize and seek the comments from his customers his is not one of the best gay venues? Some of the best bar owners I've ever known didn't socialize with their customers, many of whom were either big-noting themselves ("I know the owner") or expecting free drinks. The character who spends a week or two in Thailand every year and is an instant expert on how bars should be run is a form of bar-room bore that owners of the best venues, gay or otherwise, sensibly avoid
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
I'm curious. Apart from Soi Twilight, I always understood that soi's real name is Duangthawee. But it's now named Pratuchai. Anyone know why?
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fountainhall
I'm curious. Apart from Soi Twilight, I always understood that soi's real name is Duangthawee. But it's now named Pratuchai. Anyone know why?
There's a Duangthawee Plaza in/near the soi that has, like Twilight lent the soi one of its names but its proper name is Pratuchai - as a careful study via Google on both those names will readily show
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Re: A future for Soi Pratuchai?
That explanation is fucking incomprehensible.
Just saying like.