Yes, cat, that is what I am talking about.
How many Thai boys have you met who use sunscreen? Also, its overpriced in Thailand.
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Yes, cat, that is what I am talking about.
How many Thai boys have you met who use sunscreen? Also, its overpriced in Thailand.
This is known as the 'Dorian Gray Farang effect' - spending time with an ageing Farang makes the boys grow old prematurely whilst a Farang is kept young by the youth of the boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaiquila
Of course, it's all tosh and nonsense. you see Farang's of all ages and all states of decay, some wear well, others not so. The same applies to Thai guy's, some remain sprightly and attractive and can continue working the bars. I know of at least one popular gogo 'boy' who is 38 and still one of the most popular offs.
Interesting, but that is not really what I am talking about.
Of course, there is great variation among individuals, I am talking more about the generalities.
And besides that, people don't seem to be commenting on the implied core of my point, so let me restate.
Older farang moves halfway around the world to enjoy Thailand.
One of the main things he moves for is the easy availability and enthusiasm of YOUNG men.
Older farang enters "love relationship" with younger Thai man.
However, ECONOMICS is the underlying glue of why the young Thai man is there, and attraction to a YOUNG man is the attraction for the farang.
Five years later, quite often, the youngman is not looking so young anymore.
Assuming there isn't real love, whats to keep the farang from trading down again in age?
After all, the farang moved halfway around the world attracted by young men, and now he is "stuck" with a not young man.
Kind of like paying the cover charge, a steep cover charge at that, and not enjoying whats on offer.
All this is irelevant is there is "real love" between the two. However, I am skeptical about how real that is for most of these relationships based on years of observation.
Of course, Thai boys on the scene know all about the wandering eyes of farang. Not a very secure situation at all. And unlike the Thai females, they can't tie the deal up with marriage. They call such farang, bad farang. But are they bad farang? Such relationships are based on an EXCHANGE of what both don't have, the old farang wants youth, the youth wants money. If the farang runs out of money, the Thai boy will always leave, yes?, so why shouldn't the farang leave when the youth is no longer a youth?
BTW, I know I am sounding NOT very romantic ... starting to really feel like a farang who knows too much.
I would have said precisely the reverse of what Thaiquila has suggested.
I think that Thai men and most South East Asians look much younger than their western equivalents up to the age of about 35 and then start on a more rapid decline in the aging process. I know Thais who, when we first met, they were in their early 20's who are now in their mid thirties and they still look young, slim and attractive. Westerners of the same age group age much faster, get fatter quicker and look (to me) totally unattractive. But it's all a matter of individual perception and what suits you, may not suit me and vice verca.
:alien:
they are aging faster because they are becoming more like us?
On my first trips it seemed they all had perfect teeth, perfect skin, gorgeous shinning hair.
A friend explained to me, they eat very little refined sugar and very little meat: typically as little as 1/8-1/4 pound-per-day.
(Typical conversation: Num said, "No Beef!" So I asked what he wanted: "Hamburger." he sweetly replied.)
Judging from my own associations, my friend seemed to be right: an offer of a desert, other than fresh fruit, or candy was usually--nearly always--refused but, as time passed I was buying (them) more and more Snickers, shakes, sugared soft drinks, steaks, sweet rolls ('Doughnuss'), fried chicken, ribs and fast\junk food--And beer, whiskey and cigarettes. And after they get the beer, whiskey and cigarettes in the shopping bag they'll reach for one or two of those little bottles of (Nasty) chicken stock or Bacchus-F energy drink..."Oh very good vita-MIN." On the other hand; I know a couple in their sixties who look forty and a Jomtien massage boy pushing forty--With a Sherman tank--who looks twenty-something. Maybe it's, as Ginger says, "All in the jeans."
According to the USDA: In 1960 each American ate an average of 196 pounds of beef, pork and chicken; the amount has risen to 269 pounds in 2006.
Pushing 50, but looking early thirtyQuote:
Originally Posted by Thaiquila
Not unusual for any gay american?
A bit of a stretch I'd say
Surfcrest
My experience of Thai men in their 30's (mostly here in NZ) are that they look a lot younger than their white(Kiwi) age matched counterparts. I put it down primarily to their superior diet and its emphasis on fresh produce, fruits and vegetables, something that a typical western diet is increasingly missing. In fact one of my Thai friends, Geng, who is about 34 easily passes for 24 and has a fantastic body, a six-pack, there's not an ounce of fat on him anywhere. Most young gay Kiwi men in their 20's would die for such a body, (let alone those in their 30s) but they just don't have it. Like Americans, and most populations of the English speaking West New Zealanders are also in the throws of an obesity epidemic, with over half our population overweight and or obese. We're not quite as bad yest as the Americans, and we're certainly not as bad as the Australians (now the world's fatest nation) but we're getting there.
We have by percentage of population a lot of Asians living in New Zealand, and generally it's acknowledged that they look younger than we do for the same age. I just read one of my travel dairies from China which I wrote in 1981 when I was 19, and a number of Chinese women crew on the Yangtze river ferry that I was on thought I was 30! 30, and I was 19! And this was before many Westerners had traveled to China and there wasn't one modern high rise building anywhere on the mainland that I saw, so there were no preconceptions there of what we should look like.
I was fascinated to read what Edith wrote about the increased consumption of meat by Americans between the 60's -00's. That coupled with our increasing consumption of sugar and fat, often hidden in food of low nutritive value and the prevailing epidemic of inactivity we see now with TVs, computers, computer games, cars and labour saving devices is making us (farangs) look a lot older than we are very quickly indeed.
Oh and I don't buy for one moment the notion that the 'average' American homosexual is doing anything of the sort you suggest Thaiqullia. That's likely just your fantasy dude, and may reflect the community you choose to hang out with, but it's not representative of gay Americans as a whole. If it is, where your evidence (the studies) that proves it?
I am mainly talking about the FACES.
Like I said before, of course you can find lots of exceptions. I just do find the Thai boys FACES often show their age usually starting over age 25. Bodies are probably generally better than Westerners overall, because less obesity, true.
SO.
No comment on the age old issue of farangs dumping OLD boys for new boys?
I am most interested in the moral/ethical angle of these EXCHANGE relationships. Don't people agree with me that if the farangs runs out of money, the Thai boys will vanish. So isn't it a fair EXCHANGE that when the Thai boy runs out of youth (however, you define it, but I define it when the face looks not fresh) that the farang should "renegotiate" the situation.
Going further, don't a lot of farangs put up with boys who are lazy bums, watching telly all day etc, which is cute for awhile, but so NOT CUTE when they get older?
Well, if you are talking butterlies then that happens all the time anyway. It's at the very heart of the GoGo meat market . . . the rollover of the dance floor participants on a regular timetable with the older leaving, and the younger entering through a revolving door. The GoGo guys know that, and the clientele know it, and expect it. That's the business, so no comment really necessary . . . the business's nature is mutually excepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaiquila
If you're talkng about long-term relationships then probably no comment because that would be an admittion of some fundamental shallowness of character . . . and who wants to do that?
All I can do is comment on my own case (not the generalisms you say you want) . . . . which is a perfectly content and loyal 7-year relationship with the same guy, and a retirement coming up for me which will (finally!) mean living together and watching each other grow old. So I guess I'll be able to test your theory out in the real world then.
My guy was already 31 when we met (and I was oh so happy to find that out: though I would have guessed he was in the 25 or 26 area when we first met), and I was 52. He's now 38 (I'm 59) and I can tell the difference in many ways: more maturity of action (though he was always mature); better & better English (though it was always quite good); comfortable in arguing with me (quite stubbornly I might add!) etc etc ec
But you say you're talking about faces (his body is as always: hard, fat-less, and and and) . . . well that has changed also. He has wrinkles where there were none (mostly around his eyes), but frankly, that's about it. His skin is as smooth as I always remember . . . though every time we meet on my arrival at Don Muang his cheeks always seen a bit hollow and his eyes a bit tired . . . that's from the work in the country from which he has just left, and that 'look' disappears within a week as we get into our on rythym of "rela" and "sanuk".
None of his aging is unattractive to me in any way. And I hope (and he says!) none of mine is unattractive to him. I have no interest in anyone but him ... never have: to be completely & eye-rollingly maudlin about the whole thing, I love his heart more than his face or body ~ and that just gets better and better.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not making any judgement about those butterflys who prefer very much younger guys when they come to Thailand ... and who might regularly toss aside the older for the younger, or, who choose the younger over the older when playing the number game in GoGo and Host bars: there they choose by "looks", and everyone excepts that. To be honest, that's what I originally thought I'd be doing on my first holiday in Thailand.
But "dumping" (your word) one's partner simply for a natural degradation in "looks" in the middle of what both parties agree is a long-term relationship brings up huge moral issues around 'loyalty', and 'sincerity', and 'committment', and 'honesty' (all those ~ and more ~ of Dr Phil's middle-class angsts), and makes one think about one's relationship in much starker terms than one would when picking a number in a GoGo bar.
In other words, the rather disturbing notion of "love" comes into play in (successful!) longterm relationships which is blessedly NOT part of the equation when one is deciding to dump a favourite GoGo boy for one more fresh in the cheek. That's easy: Do it! 'Mai pen rai' both parties should say.
But when "love" raises it's nasty guilt-ridden head and becomes an integral part of the moral complications, then I would think "a young face" would probably be a long way down the list of things to take into consideration.
All this IMHO only.
Purely coincidently . . . just before I left for Thailand on this last trip I was talking with Suphot on the phone. We were just discussing details of what were going to do and places we were going to go, and telling each other how much we missed etc etc etc ... same old stuff.
At some point in the conversation he said ~ rather out of the blue really ~ that " ... I am come to be old now, look ugly. When you see me (at the airport) I hope you not run away ... ". I laughed at that, then he laughed at that ... and then I knew he was only joking, bcause he knew (inside!) I was really not going to run away.
Cheers ....
Thats a sweet story.
Do you give him an economic benefit, money, a business, free rent, etc?
If so, if you stopped that, would he still be with you?
If so, you do NOT have an EXCHANGE based relationship.
But does anyone deny that most of the older farang/younger Thai relationships are EXCHANGE based relationships where wealth is expected to be spent on the Thai and if the wealth goes away, the Thai goes away?
I don't see this as shallow, I see this as another common type of relationship.