Dreamboys staff had a meeting recently at which it was announced that Soi Pratuchai will shut down within 2 years. That's all I know. Cannot provide any details or more info.
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Dreamboys staff had a meeting recently at which it was announced that Soi Pratuchai will shut down within 2 years. That's all I know. Cannot provide any details or more info.
Is Soi Pratuchai the soi in Bangkok off of Silom with a lot of gay venues, including Dream Boys?
I was talking to the German owner of Dreamboys and he indicated he would probably retire soon, as his health was failing and in any case, he didn't need the money. So maybe he announced to his staff that the end is nigh.
Once his two bars close, then I think that will be the end of the soi, as the other bars seem incapable of attracting large Chinese tour groups.
Unless someone with a good head for business takes over the two bars.
Then again, maybe the soi is up for redevelopment.
I hope someone can dig a bit deeper and find out what's really going on. Or corner the German and ask him. He, of all people, would know.
If the soi really is going to close, we'll soon know - he will quickly put his bars up for sale before word gets out and it's too late.
I do think the Soi is at the end of it's run however, that might not be a bad thing as it would likely cause a new area to do somthing interesting....My quess with the rate of developement Soi Twilight is worth much more than the gay venues on it.
It's actually off Suriwong - and, yes, it is where Dream Boys, Hotmale and other gogo bars are located. The announcement is interesting because at least two of the Boards have had recent threads re how Soi Twlight (as it is often called after the original Twilight gogo bar) can continue given the substantial reduction of western visitors looking to off boys and the increase in Chinese and other Asians only interested in just one drink and seeing the shows.
Having viewed the soi as it rose and has fallen, I cannot see a future as part of Bangkok's gay scene. I suspect there is just not enough requirement for total redevelopment in upper Suriwing yet. So as earlier discussed, maybe it will morph for a while into a sort of Silom Soi 4 ( where Telephone and Balcony bars are located).
Soi Twilight's decline comes as Silom Soi 4 thrives. If only the owners had a spark of innovation the Soi could perhaps continue for a few years longer. But for those looking for bars with boys - I cannot call them gogo bars! - there will still be the bars further down Suriwong not far from Tawan..
As fountainhall has mentioned there are a few bars where boys can be offed near Tawan namely Super A, Golden cock and Nature Boys.
Those are the very bars I hang out in whenever I go to Bangkok these days . Last visit back December /January I only went to Soi Twilight for the X-boys show then invariably ended up back in Soi Tawan.
The only problem is, Super A, Natureboy and Golden Cock rarely have any customers - 9 times out of 10 I'm sitting there all alone. On the odd occasion a customer turns up at SuperA or Natureboy, they stick their head in the door then turn around and go somewhere else. I've yet to see a night time customer in Golden Cock.
There's no way those bars would attract the cashed-up Chinese - they don't make it past Tawan - and for some reason the area is also avoided by farang.
Perhaps they don't know it exists. In any case, they would find it a waste of time, as Natureboy rarely has more than 2 boys (!) and the guys at SuperA are rather unattractive. Also, their English is by and large non -existent.
Golden Cock has some attractive guys but they only turn up for work when they feel like it.
Soit Twilight has an apt name - darkness will soon fall - permanently. Aside from what this or that bar may do, or perhaps bigger redevelopment plans, the business model has no future. Being a prostitute, especially working in a whore house, is now neither socially acceptable nor economically necessary for most Thai boys. Just look around the soi at the guys working there; aside from those from neighbouring countries the quality ain't what it was. And the numbers of those who might consider such a career is further being suppressed by the penal system as so many end up inside for drugs.
Further factors affect the customer base. Despite what foreigners see in BKK or Patts, Thais have always been the vast majority of customers for the business (albeit in maybe cheaper places than Twilight). Again, social acceptability for Thais means everyone must be much more discreet - something now facilitated by the internet. For many Farangs the attraction of Thailand was it was cheap - well not anymore. Prices are up across the board both due to inflation and exchange rate issues (depending on one's provenance). And those Thai guys openly selling their arse now do so for a premium price.
Two remarks here.
I understood from people who can know that the short time prize is pretty stable over the years. In Pattaya 1200 baht short time is possible and that is about the same prize as it was 10 years ago, when there were no apps (as I understood).
I doubt many boys have better oppertunities now. Prostitution is the most easy way to have a monthly income with not too much work. Many boys only have primary education (this is not rare at all). They can only get boring, badly paid jobs, for 8 hours a day. Then end of month they receive their 10.000 baht salary. They can earn this amount also - and far more easily - by just taking 6 customers in a month. So 6 hours work can get them the same compared to 160 hours of work. Then I know what I would choose if I was a good looking Thai boy and I was facing these two options.
BonTong u must be very mistaken. Anyone who opens up their Grindr app in Pattaya will be flooded by offers of cheap paid sex....not sure what u mean by premium. Even for me BHT1000 is not outrageous. I do agree that the proliferation of hookup apps have decimated the gogo bars but I guess thats what disruptive technology does and its up to the bars to evolve and innovate of they want to stay in biz.
...and asdara has merely stated the obvious....even a pig ugly gogo can make more money than a gorgeous construction worker.
I don't know about Pattaya, but this thread was about Soi Pratuchai in BKK. Here prices have definitely increased! It's not just about money though. It's about social acceptability too. With the internet everyone knows everyone's business; it's much harder for a boy to leave home saying he's off to work in BKK and then work in a go-go without risking being discovered.
The old adage applies, don't judge a book by its cover. If all you see is the go-go boy in the bar, and how much he wants for short time you are missing the big picture. Get out into the countryside, small towns and villages. Here things have changed enormously. People may not be rich, but from what I see the average family is doing much better than fifteen years ago. The economic imperative is not there like it used to be. Yes, "even a pig ugly gogo can make more money than a gorgeous construction worker". But, why would they want to when they can now enjoy a more acceptable lifestyle back at home with friends and family?
We all know that there are two sex industries in Thailand - one for the Thais which westerners rarely if ever discover - and one for visiting tourists and expats. When gay go-go bars first started, they must have seemed like manna from heaven for many country guys. They could put out of their minds the fat smelly hairy western body humping them for a while and think only of the Baht they would be handed when they could go back to their mates.
Since the government's first Social Order campaign in 2001, far more Thais became far more openly aware of the foreigner-based "entertainment" business - the sex business, in other words. And the vast majority did not like it. Poll after poll showed that the curtailing of the industry through things like shortening of opening hours and the zoning of entertainment businesses were extremely popular with Thais throughout the country. Over time, being a gay prostitute was no longer regarded as that enviable source of oodles of Baht. Indeed, for many more boys there is now a stigma attached to it than there ever was before. Why do you think there are so many Cambodians, Lao and Vietnamese boys now working legally or illegally in the sec business here? Because they are in the same economic circumstances of the Thai boys of yesteryear. Plus they are far from home so there is no fear of stigma at home.
That's not to say young Thai guys are not as interested in sex as any others. They are - only most now prefer sex with other Thais. Accordingly there is now a thriving industry in catering for this new young market, largely in gay Thai saunas some of which have their own no-holds-barred shows.
Of course there will always be money boys. I just agree with BonTong that social conditions in this already very conservative country are changing faster than before. As has been said by many posters over the last two years or so, the go-go bar model which flourished at its peak 15 - 30 years ago can not last. The owners failed to keep up with the times and really had no idea what their audience base wanted. Like the dinosaurs, their extinction is only a matter of time.
You know Thailand better than I do, so I think you are right.
But this means the social stigma of being a money boy (for Farang or for Thai customers) forces many Thai boys now in badly paid jobs. Where they have far less free time than with the other option. That must then also be true, not?
Also if there still is a prostitution market for local Thai men than that is strange. Because I doubt they pay these boys the same we Farang pay them. Then why go as Thai boy with a Thai customer, if he pays less?
Question: are some members still in contact with boys they offed 20 years ago, or even longer ago? These boys (now men) are now in their early 40s. How are they now making a living? Very curious to that.
Definitely not true. Why do you even suggest it "forces" Thais into badly paid jobs? The option remains. The fact is that far fewer boys see open prostitution in go-go bars as an option. The idea is anathema to them. Do you automatically assume that day labourers and poorly paid handsome young men in your country take these jobs in preference to working as prostitutes? You overestimate the number of guys around prepared to sell their bodies.
It's frankly not strange at all. It's far less economics than social issues. The number of Thais in the country who interact with westerners is tiny! So it's not at all a case of let's be fucked by westerners because they'll pay more. I reckon it's much more a case of I'll go with guys I'm familiar with. I suspect some of these Thai men treat the money boys worse than most westerners. But that's entirely a matter for them.
Strangely, I did have a short fling with a money boy 21 years ago. He ended up going to university - the first ever in his family - and getting a degree. He then started a business which failed. So he got s job in a retail business, saved money and started a second business with a stall at Chatuchak. He still runs that business which now has several outlets in Bangkok. He regularly travels to India and China to source materials. We keep in touch and still meet occasionally for lunch.
Don't fall into the habit of assuming that western logic rules the world. It doesn't. Westerners who have lived in Thailand spend years trying and failing to come to terms with Thai logic!
In Chiang Mai I'd say the majority of guys you will meet online are either students or have a job (might well be different in Pattaya). If they want some cash it's a sideline, not their main occupation. For the few that have opted for the full-time money boy lifestyle its usually not pretty and may well involve a bunch of illegal activities :stop_mini:.
Much better work in seven and discreetly make a few extra $$ than join that downward spiral towards the jail, or worse.
Not 20 years but more than 15. Still see a few Soi twilight old hands back in their country homes. Once a hustler always a hustler, even if they are not selling themselves. Was just joking the other day about how many former giks now wear pink aprons!
In many cases I also suspect you are right, but even if the financial reward may be lower it will be delivered in a respectful Thai way so no one loses face. A lot of Thai's get in go-go/karaoke bars in Chiang Mai. It's interesting to watch the often subtle nuances of their interactions with the boys.
That said, a lot of Thais are very generous - something which hierarchical Thai society demands. It is the more wealthy Thai's you see in the bars entertaining several boys with a bottle or two of whiskey, not the farangs. And, for a gay Thai it's a really good gig to be the "mia noi" for a wealthy married Thai Chinese.
What you say reflects what the boys have told me over the years.
I'm not a butterfly; I have regular guys in the places I visit, and they all speak very good English. As we've gotten to know each other over the years they've opened up and told me many interesting things about their work as moneyboys.
Not one boy has ever said he enjoys the work but they have all commented on the fact that it is easy money. Mind you, the guys I choose are hot hunks with all the required attributes so when I'm not in town they are all making lots of money. As they say, there's no way they could ever make this kind of money doing a normal job.
They all have at least one thing in common - they do not waste their money on drink and drugs; rather, they are saving up for the time when they can no longer work as moneyboys.
A lot of guys in Thailand (and in any country for that matter) would find the job distasteful and would never dream of prostituting themselves. They are willing to accept working long hours for little money. And good luck to them, if that's what they want. It's their life.
On the other hand, there are heaps of guys for whom the temptation of easy money is just impossible to resist. Many young guys want to enjoy the endless parties that such easy money affords them. Some will disappear in a cloud of yabaa whilst others will make a go of it and come out the other end with enough money to set themselves up for life.
Their choice.
Its virtually the same in many countries. A good-looker with good manners and a sense of style can become a kept boy for a few years in which he will probably be given an apartment, a car, a large clothing allowance, cash - and a big bonus when his patron wants to move on to someone else. I know of more than two quite prominent Bangkok businessmen who have provided apartments and all the other trimmings for their boyfriends/girlfriends - and rumour has it their wives are perfectly well aware of the situation. Certainly if they read the gossip magazines they're bound to know! But then many Thais have second wives quite openly.
The huge numbers of Thai guys who came to Pattaya and Bangkok twenty/thirtyvyears ago came because of dire circumstances at home. An issue often neglected is that of family-size. Thailand had an effective birth-control programme (still has?) and the younger children in large families were particularly vulnerable. Hence their desire to move to urban centres and make money, much of which returned to their parents. With smaller families, the need is not so great.
nice post Oliver. I think there's a few other variables at play too.
- Thais have become more modernized / Westernized, so family loyalty isn't quite what it once was. still very strong, but not quite as much as decades ago.
- Many will disagree with me, but middle class here has expanded greatly over the last 15 or so years. All that Gdp growth Thailand has enjoyed -- some of it has trickled down to even somchai selling somtam in the village. Hence, there's not as much of a need to prostitute yourself.
- probably most importantly, the stereotype of the farang has changed quite a bit over the decades. I would imagine back in say the vietnam war era, the stereotype was farangs were generally GIs who were young, healthy, good looking, had a pocket full of cash, and all the ambition in the world. Nowdays, I think it's changed into more of a 65yo fat, alcoholic guy living on a small pension, and wears a wife beater every day. Hence, ambition to rush down to Pattaya to get hitched with a farang has waned a little.
- Another one is the media in this country. They love to chastise foreigners for anything and everything wrong, and I'm uncertain if that was the case 30 or 40 years ago.
Interesting points in the last 2 posts. I'm not quite so sure about the Vietnam War, though, as it ended in 1973. I expect some of the GIs may have been after boys, but whilst girlie go-go bars had certainly started to sprout up, there were few if any gay go-go bars by then. Even in 1980 Bangkok had less than a handful. But the western clientele during the 1980s and 90s was certainly a lot younger on average than in more recent years.
Interesting points in the last 2 posts. I'm not quite so sure about the Vietnam War, though, as it ended in 1975. I expect some of the GIs may have been after boys, but whilst girlie go-go bars had certainly started to sprout up, there were few if any gay go-go bars by then. Even in 1980 Bangkok had less than a handful and I'm not sure if there was even one gogo bar in Pattaya - just a few host-type bars (but I am not sure of this). But the western clientele during the 1980s and 90s was certainly a lot younger on average than in more recent years.
Without reference to the GI's who used Thailand for R&R: Thirty or forty years ago (my first arrival was in 1972), most of the foreigners coming to Thailand for an extended stay were teachers, advisers, engineers, researchers, in short, people who were needed, people who could be utilized to improve the country in some way. Thus, farang were treated respectfully simply because they could be employed either for the greater good, or for the good of particular Thais. Then came the backpackers and no one felt compelled to give them much respect. And then, thanks to reduced air fares and to Thailand's growing reputation as the sex capital of SE Asia, there came a rather large percentage of foreigners who had not the slightest notion of contributing to the betterment of Thai society. So the Thai media chastise farang now because they are no longer "untouchable" (and because some deserve it), or simply because the Thai media don't have the freedom to chastise khon Thai. IMHO
My God, I was born in 1972. So you already visit Thailand for 44 years. Life has been kind to you, very kind.
I hope life awards me so many decades of sex tourism also. I am however afraid it will already end for me in my 3rd year (if I loose my job, which is not that unlikely to happen in one of the coming years).
AsDaRa...why so negatively fatalistic???
And am afraid that I have to disagree with all u armchair specialists....again as mentioned earlier all one has to do is log onto one of the numerous hook up apps to receive multiple invites on a daily basis. BKK/Pattaya is awash with whores peddling their wares...dont judge the commercial sex scene by the state of the bars....business model has evolved..MB has cut out the public humiliation of having to parade around in public shaking his booty to attract customers...has also cut out the middle man...BKK/Pattaya is still the place to be if one is a committed sex tourist. Definitely more bang for ones buck.
Absolutely agree!
The media has an enormous role - people are now much better informed than 15 years ago. Back then, out in the countryside many houses hardly had electricity, let alone TV sets. Now, even in remote villages TVs and satellite dishes are everywhere and many people have smart phones. Although the education system here may be lacking, people now have other sources of knowledge, from social media to Thai soaps. Older foreigners being seen together with young Thais (of either gender) is now viewed as somewhat distasteful. Especially when the latest raid on a girlie bar is broadcast live on TV!
I have to agree with Latin that too often your outlook is too negative. Life is a great deal brighter and more fascinating when you banish those thoughts and be much more positive about the future.
I can recall some time around 1987 when I became similarly negative. AIDS had started to take its toll in Thailand and it was announced in the Hong Kong media that bar owners here were talking about banning guys from Hong Kong because more cases had developed there (where I worked). Gay sauna owners in Japan were also on the point of banning non-Japanese in the belief that this would prevent AIDS from spreading (a forlorn hope as AIDS was already taking its deadly toll). Selfishly I thought my sex life would all but come to an end - and I was younger then than you now.
As things turned out the Thai bar owners did not ban anyone, although the Japanese saunas remained closed to foreigners for many years. And there was still lots of gay sex to be found almost everywhere in Asia, even in Singapore and Malaysia where it was - and remains - technically illegal. So my concerns were totally unfounded. But if you are worried about the future of your sex life, please be very, very thankful you never had to live through those dreadful early years of AIDS when infection meant death.
Shifting back to the first few posts in this thread about the demise of Soi Twilight...a walk down Surawong shows buildings between Le Meredian and the Montien's entrance to be covered in pre-development wrap, and at the other end there is major development happening, with condo being constructed at Ashton Place. Suspect since there is no Landmarks Commission to hold developers back, a real estate deal will eventually kill off all but memories.
One short anecdote. I vividly recall arriving in Bangkok from Singapore in 1989 and seeing an Air Europe 747 from somewhere in England (I will not offend sensibilities by naming the departure airport) disgorging what appeared to be a full planeload largely made up of cheap package tourists who looked like a caricature of louts from a 1960s move - slightly fat women in too-tight floral miniskirts and beehive hairstyles, groups of unshaven drunk young men, beer bottles in hand, ruffled shirts out (decades before it became the fashion) and singing vaguely pornographic songs etc. . . As I walked to Immigration, I thought "What have the Thais done to deserve this?"
But how can you live a middle class live from the average 10.000 baht salary that many Thais receive? At least this is about the most common salary I hear quoted on forums and from Thais (working in 7-11 or working in a shop or being a hotel receptionist, that is about your monthly salary).
You can't even have your own descent room with such a salary, but need to share.
Say you are married and your monthly income is 20.000 baht, can you live a middle class live with your wife and two kids from that in Pattatya? Maybe in the country side. But in a city?
Vast numbers of Thais do! But you are again bringing your own European sensitivities into a Thai context. Your ideas of class are certainly far from those of the average Thai.
For example, what is the approx. size in square meters of your house or apartment? The average Thai couple with one or two kids and climbing the economic ladder is moving into Bangkok and seeking apartments of around 35 - 40 sq. m. That is the average size of most apartments now being constructed as Bangkok continues to grow outwards. How many middle class families where you live would even consider that as the size for one decent bedroom?
Besides I can tell you that hotel receptionists generally earn a good deal more than employees at 7/11 stores!
I know from the hotel receptionist from Copa hotel in Boyztown he earned 10.000 two years ago. I must say I am not sure if it was a full time job for him. So you can be right that full time it is a bit more. But it is still an unskilled job. You don't need an education for it. Besides knowing how to read and write of course.
It was his only normal income. Besides being money boy also.
Would you regard that as middle class?
Ok, but flip that around. How well do you think a 7/11 clerk in say Canada or Germany lives? I doubt they're buying a brand new 3bdrm house, have a couple nice vehicles in the driveway, eat filet mignon when they want, and go on a couple nice vacations a year. Instead, I would imagine they're living in a small apartment with one or two other people, eat like garbage, and are struggline to make ends meet if not living off a credit card at the end of every month.
Things like 7/11 clerk and hotel receptionist are shit jobs with shit pay all over the world, and Thailand is no different.
ADR, I don't know where you get your info because it is quite unreal.
To work as a cashier in Big C one needs a Bachelor degree. (My partner and his best friend - employed as a branch Chief Cashier - were both "retrenched" from different store branches because the company policy suddenly changed to require all staff to have at least a graduate degree.) Much the same applies in most department stores if you want a sales job.
If you still want to be employed after you turn 35, you will need a Masters. In which case you will still only be getting around 20K Baht. Else you will suddenly find yourself doing something quite menial or you become "self employed". You know - street vendor or similar. Go and read some of the employment advertisements in the news papers. They will open your eyes at the systematic prejudice used to hire labour at the lowest pay rate.
If you have some family 'push' these situations probably will not apply.
I think it's important to remember this thread was about Soi Pratuchai, and by implication go-go bars/boys. For those boys it's not just about money, it's about the whole lifestyle thing including family social issues and Thai culture. Things that cannot be easily measured or understood when viewed from a western perspective.
Being a go-go boy now is more about lifestyle than money. Effectively the bar owns you. Don't turn up for work and you get fined. Don't want to go with a customer - fined. Don't want to do the show -fined. No where to live - don't worry we'll rent you a room. Yes, it's a shit life, so here's a little something to make it easier.... Oh you liked that did you? Well, the next one ain't free. And so the downward spiral begins..... Anyone who thinks that boy in his tighty whities on stage is a completely free agent just there for the money is being extremely naive. Especially in this modern age.
Soi Pratuchai, and other bar zones in Thailand, will continue for sometime yet, but will rely increasingly on foreign guys as they can't find Thai's to do the job, anymore than the construction industry can, or the food processing or fishing industries can. The business will turn increasingly to the dark side as more human traffickers move in.
I do agree with other posters that prostitution is not dead. I'm sure, as others have stated, in Pattaya there are plenty of hard core money boys waiting for you online - at least there they are free agents. And there are definitely lots of boys all over the country who are not hard core but do it discreetly to make extra cash. This will continue as long as the supply and demand economics support it.
Just spotted this: Junta to purge Pattaya of prostitution
http://prachatai.org/english/node/6942
Well, heard that story before but this line echoes some points already raised about the media in this thread :
"Thai media should not highlight the issue due to the risk of tarnishing the country’s image"