The Blue Diamond Affair

[allieb]

The latest on the jewl robbery. Meanwhile ordinary Saudis are being fined and having a 1 year travel ban slapped on them for visiting Thailand Sorry to cut and paste but I didn't know how to add the link to the story.

Thursday, August 6, 2009
Timeline of the Blue Diamond Affair
Updated

The first victim of the crime is, today, the king of Saudi Arabia. Others were not so lucky. By one estimate, at least 17 people have died as a result of the theft of the blue diamond, leading superstitious Thais to believe the diamond is cursed.

That's not all. Because of the "Blue Diamond Affair" Thais were prohibited from visiting Saudi Arabia for a generation and the number of Thai workers in Saudi Arabia declined from nearly a quarter million to only 10,000, costing the Thai economy an estimated $500-700 million. Thai-Saudi relations have yet to recover.

The New York Times once called it "the biggest scandal in the history of the Thai national police."

Today came the latest installment in this twenty-year saga. Before we get to that -- and in order to illustrate why the latest news out of Bangkok makes no sense -- I drew up this timeline.

Jotman's Blue Diamond Affair Timeline

1989 (Jun-Aug) - Kriangkrai Techamong, a Thai worker steals 200 lbs of jewels from Riyadh palace of Saudi Crown Prince Faisal ibn Abdul Aziz al Saud, the son of King Fahd. Among the stolen gems was a rare blue diamond. The theft amounted to US$20 million.

---- - Kriangkrai packed loot in boxes and sent it to relatives in Thailand by DHL parcel post.

----- - Kriangkrai returns to Thailand and stashes loot at his home in Lampang (in the north of Thailand). Kriangkrai buried some of his loot on the farm and started selling items individually for $30 apiece.

---- - owner of a large Thai jewelery business, Santi Sithanakan, thought to have purchased most of the gems from Kriangkrai.

----- - Al-Besri and the three others- two diplomats and a private citizen - are assigned by Saudi Arabia to look into the highly publicised Saudi diamond scandal.

------ (Nov) - Al-Maliki, a Saudi Arabian diplomat close to the Saudi royal family arrives in Bangkok to investigate.

1990 (Jan 4) - Al-Maliki, 35, shot dead in front of his home on Soi Pipat 1 off Sathon Road.

1990 (Jan) - Investigation led by Police Lieutenant-General Chalor Kerdthes leads to arrest of Kriangkrai and the recovery of many of the jewels.

1990 (Feb 1) - Saudi diplomat Adbullah A al-Besri, the consul, is killed in Bangkok. Ten minutes later, two more Saudi diplomats -- Fahad AZ Albahli, an attach├й, and Ahmed A Alsaif, a telex operator -- are also assassinated in Bangkok.

1990 (Feb 14) - Saudi businessman, Mohammed al- Ruwaili, thought to have known who had stolen the jewelry, disappears.

1990 (March) - police handed over the jewels to Saudi Arabia in a public ceremony.

1990 - Saudis discover 80% of the returned jewels are fake. The Thai police are the prime suspects.

1990 - Saudis downgrade diplomatic relations with Thailand. They dispatch "a tough-talking, gun-toting" charge d'affairs, Mohammed Said Khoja, to Thailand to retrieve the family jewels. Khoja believes that the man responsible for the imitations is jeweler Santi. 'He is the one who changed the genuine stones for the fakes,' he says. 'He is the key.' Concerning the killings, "Khoja will not go into details, but says all four were in some way involved with the attempt to regain the jewels, and claims that they were killed because they had important information. A Thai policeman was also killed. The police denied that the murder was linked with the jewels but they promised to step up their investigations."

------ - "Saudis became convinced that the Thai police were involved in a huge cover-up, that the jewels had been distributed among some influential people at the top of Thai society."

----- - "At a gala dinner in Bangkok soon after the incident, wives of the Thai generals and leading politicians fiercely competed in showing off their jewelry. The Thai newspapers' photographers caught pictures showing diamond necklaces belonging to the Saudi royal family. The pictures were shown to Saudi officials who also confirmed its similarity. The Thai ladies, however, denied their authenticity." (Another?) sighting of the jewels is alleged to have occured at a Red Cross event (date unspecified).

1991 (June) - "after unrelenting pressure from Riyadh, the Thai police reopened the case, miraculously discovered some of the jewels - albeit a fraction of the total hoard - and charged four civilians with receiving stolen property. Jewels worth pounds 75,000 were returned."

----- - To protest inaction on the case, Saudi Arabia cuts off work permits to more than 250,000 Thai guest workers.

1994 (Aug) - Santi Sithanakan is kidnapped and tortured by police on orders of Chalor.

1994 (Aug) - Two weeks later, wife and 14-year-old son of Santi Sithanakan, now the government's principal witness found dead, bloodied and beaten, in their Mercedes outside Bangkok. Thai police forensic officers put the death down to a road accident, but they had clearly been murdered. "The forensic commander thinks we're stupid," Saudi diplomat Khoja tells reporters.

----- - The witness, Bangkok jeweler Santi Sithanakan, goes into hiding. He is believed to have tried to pay a randsom for his family, but obviously something went wrong.

---- (Sept) - two police generals (of the 18 police officers implicated in the gems case) are dismissed.

1994 - The thief, Kriangkrai Techamong, is free. "He was released after serving two years and seven months for handling stolen goods after receiving two royal pardons."

1995 - 13 year-long trial of Chalor Kerdthes begins. Initially he is convicted of ordering the murder of the wife and son of the gem dealer in Aug 1994. He is sentenced to death (but the sentence is not carried out). It is revealed that four men admitted committing the murders on police orders. They had demanded a ransom of $2.5 million from the jeweler.

2001 - Police Lieutenant-General Chalor Kerdthes, still in jail, has formed a rock group and produced his own version of Jailhouse Rock. He claims to be innocent.

2002 - "Police Lieutenant-General Chalor Kerdthes, 64, the man charged with investigating the theft by the migrant worker and with returning the jewels to their owner, Prince Faisal bin Abdul Raish, was jailed for seven years, the newspaper reported. Major Thanee Sridokaub, 45, received the same sentence. Both were found guilty of kidnapping a Thai jeweler who was handling the stolen gems.Chalor faces further charges of collaborating in the murder of the jeweler's wife and 14-year-old son after a ransom demand of $2.5 million was not met, the newspaper reported. Instead of attempting to solve the case, Thai police saw riches in it for themselves, the criminal court in Bangkok had been told."

2004 - The Department of Special Investigations (DSI) which is under the Justice Ministry, takes over investigation into the Saudi murders from the Thai police.DIS

2006 - Trial of Chalor Kerdthes ends. Sentenced to 20 years for stealing the recovered jewellery. Six other officers found guilty.

2007 (Sept) - new DSI team of investigators launched. It is under Army Colonel Piyawat Gingkaet. No former police have been appointed to the team.

2008 (March) - Foreign minister Noppadon declares Thailand's intention to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia, which will be possible once the Blue Diamond case is wrapped up.

---- (March) - "Two Muslim experts" who have a good relationship with Saudi Arabia appointed to serve as advisors to DSI investigators in charge of the cases.

---- (April) - Thai Justice minister Sompong Amornwiwat visits Chalor Kerdthes in jail. It was suspected that he could implicate some former police chiefs.

---- (May) - Kriangkrai -- the thief -- is now living in a small wooden house. It's not entirely clear where he got the money to buy a new tractor.

---- (fall?) - SDI Director Thawee reports that 90 percent of the investigation has been completed.

2009 (Jan) - Thai charge d'affaires to Saudi Arabia speaks of "renewed effort" by Abhisit government to "normalize diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia by resolving the Blue Diamond theft case, the murder of three Saudi diplomats in 1989 and the case of the disappearance of a Saudi businessman in 1990."

---- (Aug) - SDI decides there is enough evidence to charge Abu Ali who is suspected of shooting Abdullah AAl-Besri, the first of three Saudi diplomats shot to death on Feb 1, 1990.

2010 (early) - The statute of limitations expires on investigations into the killings

This has been the best thing ever to happen to Thailand.

a) Thai workers have been going to friendlier places -- like Israel -- where they are treated more like humans and less like dogs;

b) Saudis have not been coming to Thailand, thus sparing the rest of us the sight of their hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses.

[allieb]

This has been the best thing ever to happen to Thailand.

a) Thai workers have been going to friendlier places -- like Israel -- where they are treated more like humans and less like dogs;

And they get caught up in the fighting and get killed

b) Saudis have not been coming to Thailand, thus sparing the rest of us the sight of their hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses.

The Saudis are also on a winner having been taken out of the worlds biggest whore house

I'm supprised you call Israel a friendly country taking into account your anti semitic views in the past. Arabs and Jews are cousins. Having visited Israel myself several times I can say there is no difference at all.

What "anti-semitic" views are you talking about, exactly?

While the Israelis and Arabs may have common ancestors, Saudi Arabia is one of the most uncivilized and barbaric places in the world, whereas Israel is a shining light of civility in the region...one of the very few places over there where gay life flourishes without fear of decapitation.

And, having a number of Thai acquaintances who had previously worked as virtual untouchables in Saudi Arabia -- then later on kibbutzes in Israel -- I can tell you there is absolutely no comparison in the way they were treated.

And I bet those Saudis miss being in the biggest whore house in the world...and who can blame them looking at their women.

[Khor tose]

What "anti-semitic" views are you talking about, exactly?
Israel is a shining light of civility in the region...one of the very few places over there where gay life flourishes without fear of decapitation.

Duhhhhh, did I misread something here?
http://www.enews.ma/two-killed-shooting_i139046.html

A single isolated case -- of the type that occasionally occur even in the most progressive countries in the world (such as the Netherlands) -- and you're ready to put Israel's tolerance of gays in the same basket as places like Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Saudi?

I know you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I don't think even you are that stupid.

[allieb]

Beach Bunny

(adj) racist, antiblack, anti-Semite (discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion)

You have said in the past plenty of discriminatory things about Arabs in general.

Saudi Arabia.
The laws are a bit different to what you're used to. Gays are not openly accepted but 80% of the male population practice what you would call gay sex. Nobody is decapitated for it. There have been cases of gays being executed but not for being gay. The last execution was of a teenage boy who raped and murdered a 6 year old boy. The previous was again two middle aged men who had raped a string of 9, 10 and 11 year olds. Being gay is ok but don't go out and shout it from the roof tops, a nod and a wink is all that is needed to secure some fine sex. I have no problem with execution for raping kids

People who come to work in Saudi get paid a lot of money and are free to leave whenever they wish if they can't take the culture change. The Thais came years ago before the Blue diamond Affair and went home rich. They made enough money to build a houses and start some kind of business without having to flog their assholes.

I have Filipinos working for me and they make a basic minimum of 1,000 US $ a month with accommodation and food found. They get a ticket home every year and have never complained of being treated with disrespect. 1,000.000 live here.

Israel
A nation of people who have occupied other peoples land and then murder those who protest. The Palestinians who live in Israel proper are second class citizens and treated like shit. I have been there and seen it. Gay bars are there but many Israelis are afraid to come out for fear of being outcast by their families. Thai workers in Israel work for a lot less that Saudi Arabia pays. A group of Thai workers were abandoned to fend for themselves in Gaza when Israel pulled out. Israel then sealed the place off and attempted to starve 2,000.000 Palestinians to death. A sort of Israel's own version of The Final Solution. A civilized country you call it.

[Khor tose]

A single isolated case -- of the type that occasionally occur even in the most progressive countries in the world (such as the Netherlands) -- and you're ready to put Israel's tolerance of gays in the same basket as places like Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Saudi?
I know you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I don't think even you are that stupid.

Sorry Bunny, I don't buy you ad hominem argument. Facts impress me more then name-calling. You like to claim to be smart, yet you constantly engage in stupid arguments like the one above. You say people hate because you are always right. No, they hate you for your attitude as displayed above. Having been in the PI on several occasions I can testify that, except for some cases of women being raped, the Filipinos who work in Saudi Arabia are quite happy and doing quite well. As to maids being raped by their employers, you can find the same problems in Japan and China. Furthermore, the Philippine Government has actually done something about this problem, something the Thai Government would never give a damn about. I can also cite the following articles, about the importance of the Filipino workers both from the Saudi view and the Filipino view.

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cf ... 0806159290 (http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=200806159290)
Here is a long list of articles, on working in Saudi Arabia, with no mention of bad conditions in a Filipino Middle Eastern paper.

http://mepinoy.tripod.com/bin/script_li ... 00&=Search (http://mepinoy.tripod.com/bin/script_library/site_search/search?search_term=saudi+arabia&search_type=exact&display=%23000000&=Search)
Some articles on the importance of Saudi Arabia to the Philippines, an idea you seem to reject for Thailand.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7014296092
http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.a ... 1093260085 (http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=1093260085)
http://www.asiaecon.org/special_articles/read_sp/12169

Allieb is also offering first hand evidence, what are you offering besides the name-calling. You might also mention that the Ultra Orthodox, the same people who just elected IsraelтАЩs premier Benjamin Netanyahu, did тАЬthis one time instanceтАЭ. They are a stronger force in Israel then the religious right is in the USA, and they hate and despise gays.

[allieb]

Khor tose

Beach Bunny Hates and despises Arabs as did his previous two identities. He also thinks he is an authority on everything. The only audiance he has is here on an anonymous message board. Sad isn't it. Look how many post he's made in the lifespan of Beach Bunny 970 in less than 7 months.

Filipinos? HAHAHAHAHA. Of course the Filipinos working in Saudi are happy. THEY MANAGED TO GET OUT OF THE PHILIPPINES!

The laws in Saudi "a little different from what you're used to"? Yeah...that's one of of putting it. LOL.

You can be an apologist for one of the single most barbaric states on earth if you wish...be my guest. You take Jeddah, I'll take Tel Aviv. Everyone happy.

[Khor tose]

Khor tose

Beach Bunny Hates and despises Arabs as did his previous two identities. He also thinks he is an authority on everything. The only audiance he has is here on an anonymous message board. Sad isn't it. Look how many post he's made in the lifespan of Beach Bunny 970 in less than 7 months.

I could not agree more, it is sad. He has placed himself in the same catagory as the idiots in America who wear white sheets, the Nazi who felt they were the master race, and all the zealots of the world who know they have the "only answer".

Funny you should mention "Nazis" and "zealots".

Yes, this sounds like quite a civilized, un-Nazi-like place to me. Ho hum.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 321637.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece)

[Khor tose]

Funny you should mention "Nazis" and "zealots".

Yes, this sounds like quite a civilized, un-Nazi-like place to me. Ho hum.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 321637.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece)

That law in Arabia is no different then a law that forbids anyone to work on the Sabbath when the Orthodox stone offenders. Weren't we talking about gays, or do you want to do the whole they are bad we are good thing. I sure would like to move beyond that, but understand how some people can't put aside their prejudices and lack the ability to recognize the common humanity we are share.
I could go on to explain the Arab system of justice that forbids certain public acts, but gives complete freedom to what occurs in the home, but Lawrence did that 90 years ago. I could pray for your soul and beg God to give you a compassionate outlook on others, but I am an agnostic. I could appeal to your reason, but that boat seems to have sailed a long time ago. So I am left with just one dogmatic statement, "You are not only wrong in your hatred of Arabs, but you are very wrong."

You're right, of course. They're really just a bunch of pussy cats.

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/23391_web.jpg

[Khor tose]

Gee, how horrible. We in the West would never be so brutal. I am amazed at how you can only see the mote in the eye of the culture you hate, and not in your own culture, and you claim to be smart. You are more like permanently brain damaged.

[attachment=0:34ph1038]_flaexec_1.jpg[/attachment:34ph1038]

Actually, I do not support capital punishment in any society.

Yet, the guy in your picture was probably a mass murderer.

The guy in my picture could have been sentenced to death for:

homosexuality
adultery
apostasy (rejection of Islam by a former adherent)
distribution or consumption of alcohol
witchcraft

The list of crimes that are punishable "just" by amputation and flogging (almost as barbaric as beheadings) would take many pages to list.

I find it completely unbelievable that anyone -- much less a homosexual -- would come to the defense of such a society.

[allieb]

The news story That beach Bunny posted is also famous here. It has been in the news and on local TV. The woman in question is Arabic with an American passport. Her crime was Kalwa. (being in a secluced place with an unrelated male) Whilst I don't agree with what happened, she knew she was breaking local laws but like many Americans thought that she was different and pushed thing to the the edge. The laws are there to protect women from taking the coffee drinking one stage futher into adultry. Something that the west is rife with. Every woman in Saudi is looked upon as someones mother or sister and worshiped by the family.They are not just thought of as a piece of cunt.

The man being executed had done one of the following.

A) Murder ( but then could be forgiven by the next of kin for financial compensation)
B) Raped someone
c) Continual drug dealing ( 3 times caught)
D) Cross border drug trafficing

Capital punishment is not applied to any other crime these days

Amputations are not for stealing but for acts of Violent armed robbery

Now the good part. The streets are safe there is practically no crime and your mothers and sisters are safe.

Relationships between unrelated men and women do go on but under strict secrecy. Everybodys happy and nobody gets hurt.Gay sex is rife and quite normal even boasted about between friends both married and single.

I do prefer Jeddah and I hope Beach Bunny is happy with his curly whirly yidish zelots attacking car parks as well as gays .

[Khor tose]

Bunny,

Great you are actually trying to talk again, and we have a common point to start. I too hate capital punishment, but our culture supports it and you and I are in the minority. Since we are part of a culture that supports capital punishment does that makes us murderers and our culture bankrupt? I do not think so. Instead I believe that we are just people in a bigger society that does not perform the way we would like it too. Why do you think all Arabs support beheading? ArenтАЩt you denying them their humanity and their dissenters?
You named a bunch of crimes that you can be killed for in the Middle East. Why do I need to remind you that as little as 150 years ago we killed people, as young as ten, for stealing bread. I could also talk about the whole history of colonialism where Western societies murdered indigenous people by the millions. That only stopped 60 years ago. You can still be executed in the USA for selling drugs in some states, and not that long ago sodomy was a crime in almost every state of the Union. Let me guess you believe the West is capable of changing and moving forward, but not the Muslim East. What makes them any less human then you or I?
Furthermore, you ignore the positive things about Islamic Culture. The first that comes to mind is the requirement to give to the poor. This is not a suggestion, but one of the main pillars of Islamic culture. I think the West might learn something here, but you think the Arabs have nothing to contribute.
Finally, I am glad you got back to the comparison of treatment of homosexuals in the Arab world and the Israeli world. Yes, public homosexuality can be severely punished in the Middle East in some countries, but not in Saudi Arabia unless it involves rape or child molestation. How long do you think homosexuals will be allowed to be out in Israel once the Orthodox takes control of the government? The incidence that I first mentioned is just their shot across the bow, just like the one they gave to Rabin. Israel is not moving forward on human rights but digressing. If the Ultra Orthodox get their way, it will be back in the closet for homosexuals and possible stoning by a bunch of welfare Rabbis whose only job is to pray and see that others do what they believe the faithful must do. Time will prove me right or wrong and, if right, I will be the first to tell you, "I told you so."

Yawn. Any way you look at it, Saudi Arabia is hundreds of years behind much of the rest of the world in its thought processes. In fact, if they weren't sitting on vast oil reserves, the region would be even more backward than the darkest corners of Africa.

As for all of those great Arab contributions to civilization, please name a few from the last hundred years. OK, let's make it 200 years.

Then, let's compare it to the contributions of Jews -- a much, much smaller group.

If you like, we can start by having a look at the number of Arab Nobel laureates versus Jewish ones.

Over to you.

[Khor tose]

Yawn. Gee that is what gaybutton does when he has no argument. Come on, "yawn" is the best you can do? Why not start 600 years ago when we were living in mud huts and the Moslems had palaces, art, education, math, etc. You are just proving my point about common humanity. People and cultures develop at different speeds. Maybe the Moslems are stuck in some areas at the moment, but how does that make them any less human, and what standards are you using to judge them---not that you have any right to do so.
As to the comparisons to the Jews, I only ask why? There are as many Jews in the world as there are Germans. Tell me how do the Jews stack up to the Germans in the last 200 years, and why it would be important. Then what Jews are you talking about? Jews in America, or Germany, or Italy or England all come from different backgrounds and have different cultures. Heck in 1948, inside Israel, there was a giant gap between the Sephardim and the Mizrahim Jews. It is interesting that they now seem pretty much the same, and united against the Ortodox from Eastern Europe. If all Jews are the same people to you, as you believe all Arabs are the same people, then you would agree the Ultra Orthodox Russian Jews can represent all the Jews of the world.
Finally, it is funny; you have dropped the gay issue again. Does that mean you know I am right, and you too see what is coming in Israel? Yes, please go live in Israel, especially Jerusalem and wear your dress on Shabbat and do let me know how that works for you.

Maybe the Moslems are stuck in some areas at the moment

Gee, ya think?

Besides, I was NOT talking about Moslems in general. Several of my best friends are Moslems.

I was talking about ARABS, and much more specifically SAUDIS.

And, missy, YOU are the one who took us off of the topic of gay tolerance in the Middle East by sputtering on about all the so-called "contributions" the Arabs have given to world civilization (although I would be hard pressed to think of a SINGLE ONE in the last half millennia).

As for the gay thing, what is your wacked out theory, anyway? That Riyadh is just as nice a place to be gay as Tel Aviv?

Come on, enunciate instead of sputtering.

[Khor tose]

I sort of doubt that any of your friends are Muslim, but I have no evidence either way. I was not sputtering when I posted the link to the article on the machine-gunning of a gay youth center in Israel. Now tell me when that happened in Riyadh, or in any other Western nation--like the Netherlands--as you suggested. Neither Jerusalem nor Riyadh would be a good place for gays, but Riyadh is poised to get better--look at Arab Dubai or Qatar--and Israel has people who think it is okay to machine gun gay youth, and they are not a small minority. When I posted the link to this article you compared Israel to Iraq, Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia. Well guess what genius, Iran is not an Arab country, and it is by far the worst of the bunch when it comes to gay rights. So Saudis and Persian, or do you just not care who you hate? Your reply was that I was stupid and now I am sputtering. Once again, you only fall back seems to be ad hominem arguments and not facts.
Furthermore you made a big deal out of how Thailand was better off without the Saudis, and--of course--offered no evidence to back up this totally farcical statement. My reply also included refutation of that incredibly undocumented, idiotic statement, and I think I enunciated your errors quite well.

Listen, missy. I know perfectly well the difference between Persians, Arabs, Turks, Tatars, Kurds, etc.

I never said Iran was an Arab country. I included it among "other countries in the region" where being an open homosexual is simply not an option. In fact, it is not a practical option ANYWHERE in the region...except in Israel, although things are getting SOMEWHAT better in Lebanon -- as evidenced in the recent New York Times article on gay Beirut. And there is something of a scene, albeit in the shadows, in Istanbul.

But still we are talking light years away from Tel Aviv...despite the isolated, sole attack by a disturbed solitary gunman which you continue to bandy about as if it was a harbinger of the apocalypse.

You keep harping on about Jerusalem.

Why do you think it is not as open for gays there as it is in Tel Aviv? Could it be the fact that Jerusalem's population is almost 40% Arab, while in Tel Aviv it is only 1%?

Gee, ya think?

And about the Netherlands. Google "gay bashing in Amsterdam" and the first link you get is this one:

http://nobodysbusiness.typepad.com/nobo ... g_mus.html (http://nobodysbusiness.typepad.com/nobodys_business/2005/05/gaysmashing_mus.html)

Of course...guess what ethnic group the attackers belonged to? I guess we should brand the Netherlands as intolerant now, too. Eh?

As for Muslim friends...I do have many, you can believe it or you can not. They include Thai Muslims (lots of them), Malaysians, Indonesians, Pakistanis, a Russian Tatar couple, a very sweet Iranian trolly dolly, an old friend in Istanbul (as well as a Kurdish money boy there), a wonderful dance instructor from kyrgyzstan, and a hot bottom Lebanese fitness instructor in Kuwait. And I have a little black book full of names from my most recent visit to Beirut, Damascus, and Amman a few years ago.

Do you have any further straws to grasp at, or shall we just allow you to shrink away and save whatever face you have left? Hmm?

[allieb]

As for Muslim friends...I do have many, you can believe it or you can not. They include Thai Muslims (lots of them), Malaysians, Indonesians, Pakistanis, a Russian Tatar couple, a very sweet Iranian trolly dolly, an old friend in Istanbul (as well as a Kurdish money boy there), a wonderful dance instructor from kyrgyzstan, and a hot bottom Lebanese fitness instructor in Kuwait. And I have a little black book full of names from my most recent visit to Beirut, Damascus, and Amman a few years ago.

Dream on. Sounds like your having a fantasy wank

Shall I post scans of my visas, Alibaba or Ali G or whatever your name is? Do you think you have a monopoly on experiences in the Middle East?

[allieb]

You wouldn't post them if we asked so spare us the empty threats. Anyway even if you had visas it dosen't mean you have friends.

You're also supposed to have a successful company but you won't give any details. I think you're a big bullshitter Pussy Rabbit or whatever your name is

And no I don't have a monopoly on Middle eastern experiences I just give truthful accounts of life in Saudi Arabia

[Khor tose]

You keep harping on about Jerusalem.

Why do you think it is not as open for gays there as it is in Tel Aviv? Could it be the fact that Jerusalem's population is almost 40% Arab, while in Tel Aviv it is only 1%?
Gee, ya think?
And about the Netherlands. Google "gay bashing in Amsterdam" and the first link you get is this one:

There is a great difference between gay bashing and machine gunning a crowd. For one thing you won't find any nut, elsewhere in the world, with a beard being given a machine gun so he can protect (haha) himself from the Arabs. Second, by your own admission, Tel Aviv is 99% non-Arab, so who was it that shot up those gay youth. The Orthodox are a strong factor in Israel, so why do you keep dismissing them as a factor in how Israel treats gays. As I said earlier, wait and watch. If things keep going the way they are in Israel, soon Riyadh will be a much safer place. Finally, I agree with Allieb that you will never post anything that proves the wild claims you have made about yourself, your business, and your connections. You are just like "Bottoms-up" except you can communicate in English, and just like our earwig/LMTU/Bottoms-up you can't even stay with one board name.

So, Muhammad Ali. How do we know you even live in Saudi? Please post proof of your life and job there, and of all the hot Saudi asses you claim to fuck.

See...it goes both ways.

[allieb]

So, Muhammad Ali. How do we know you even live in Saudi? Please post proof of your life and job there, and of all the hot Saudi asses you claim to fuck.

See...it goes both ways.

You don't know, but the difference is it doesn't matter to me what anybody thinks, I don't have orgasms about where I live ,collections of friends, contacts, tricks , businesses I own, or who I sat next to in Buisness class. I have only said that sex is easy in Saudi Arabia. Arabs will usually fuck anybody, and some get fucked. If you have in fact been to all the Middle Eastern countries you claim then you would know this and how easy it is to get sex. ╪з┘Д╪│┘Д╪з┘Е ╪╣┘Д┘К┘Г┘Е

I know that, already. Duh. The Arabs will fuck anything on two (of four legs), of either sex.

Where or where did I claim it was difficult to get fucked in the Middle East? Maybe in the same message where I uttered the "anti-semitic" slurs I've also been accused of.

Anyway, genius, the availability of gay sex does not make a place tolerant or gay friendly -- in case you hadn't figured that part out.

When Riyadh has its first pride parade, please do let us know.

I never said Iran was an Arab country. I included it among "other countries in the region" where being an open homosexual is simply not an option. In fact, it is not a practical option ANYWHERE in the region

This has been discussed many times before, at length, so I will avoid covering the same ground again unnecesarily (and pointlessly). Opinions are opinions, but it is undeniable that Iran has the second highest number of sex change operations in the world (next to Thailand) and that most of these are paid for by the government (including, if preferred, having the operation carried out in Thailand). That is hardly an indicator of the repression you talk about.

This explains the apparent disconnect between fierce repression of gays in Iran, and the number of sex change operations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/world ... 0gays.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/world/middleeast/30gays.html)

[Brad the Impala]

Regendering is a way of avoiding the reality of homosexuals in a population, leading the President of the country to claim that homosexuals do not exist in Iran. It is suggested that some of those having the operation to become women, are not genuine transexuals, born in a body of the wrong gender, but homosexuals who are unable to deal with their homsexuality because of the prevailing social attitudes.

Anyone trying to suggest that Iran is a gay friendly society is flogging a dead horse. The availability of sex with men, particularly for those from a privileged class, is not in my book an indicator of a gay friendly society in which gay men are valued. After all you had soldiers freely available as rent boys in pre-Wolfenden Britain, but I don't think that anyone would have called it a gay friendly society at that time.

An Iranian Human Rights Lawyer:

"Homosexuality is defined both for men and women in law. There is a section devoted to homosexuality," Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel peace prize-winning human rights lawyer, said. "There is one part for homosexuality in men, which is called lavat [sodomy], which is punishable by death. There is another for women, which is called mosahegheh. If the crime is committed up to three times, the penalty is 100 lashes. On the fourth, it is execution."

Thank you, Brad. I can't believe that these geniuses are trying to argue that places like Iran and Saudi are good places to be gay. It boggles the mind, actually.

[Brad the Impala]

There is sometimes a confusion of issues for gay men, between the availability of cock and the availability of respect!

Mix that in with Jewish/Arab sensibilities and the Middle East, and you have the recipe for a discussion that is no longer rational.

[allieb]

Thank you, Brad. I can't believe that these geniuses are trying to argue that places like Iran and Saudi are good places to be gay. It boggles the mind, actually.

Life is good if you dont want Gay Prides and are not the kind of person who shouts from the rooftops "look at me I take it up the ass"

I am very happy along with so many other European and American gays who arrive here and think they have landed in Utopia.

As for Gay Pride in Riyadh. God forbid, but then you dont believe in God do you. You stay in Bangkok and enjoy your Gay Prides. You might even drum up some business for that company of yours when you're seen prancing around half naked or in drag on a carnival flote.

And by the way I never asked for proof of your trips to the Middle East. You offered to scan and post your visas

As for Arabs fucking anything with 4 legs. Your imagination is running wild. Perhaps you don't know that beastiality is on the rise in The USA.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/1056.html

Just check out the link Mr know all

[Khor tose]

Hello Brad, glad you could join us, but I really would like to invite you to go to the start of this thread and read what the real argument is about. Allieb reported on the Blue Diamond affair and how Saudi Arabia is boycotting Thailand, at which point the
Boygenius made the following racist statement, тАЬSaudis have not been coming to Thailand, thus sparing the rest of us the sight of their hairy, smelly, hypocritical assesтАЭ. According to him Thailand was better off not having these тАЬuncivilized and barbaricтАЭ people and, on the other hand, Israel was a shinning example of a country тАЬwhere gay life flourishes without fear of decapitationтАЭ. Totally ignoring the very recent mass machine-gunning of a gay youth group.
All I have done is point out:
1. Thailand, especially its poor workers, is not better off without the Saudis.
2. People everywhere share a common humanity.
3. Israel is not a perfectly safe place for gays, especially with the continued growth of the religious right in Israel.
4. There is a great and growing intolerance in Israel not only to gays, but also to other lifestyles that do not reflect the beliefs of the Ultra Orthodox in Israel.
5. People who have lived in and/or studied the Middle East, have first hand knowledge of that almost all of what Bunny is claiming about the Saudis exist mainly in his mind.
Now if all of this had been aimed at Iran, I might even be inclined to agree with him, as that is a country where the religious right is firmly in power, but according to the boygenius,
тАЬI was talking about ARABS, and much more specifically SAUDISтАЭ. Therefore, I am every puzzled how GF brought Iran into this argument and talked about sex changes. Sometimes GF I really wonder where your head is. So the question really is are the Arabs, and the тАЬSaudis in particularтАЭ just a terrible backward people with no hope of progressing on the Human rights and gay issue, while Israel is the light of the region moving towards greater freedom for all. Somehow I do not buy either proposition, especially with the raise of the religious right in Israel. What do you think? Don't worry about the value of the Saudi dollar to poor third world working class people, as boygenius seems to have dropped that BS anyway.

I am very happy along with so many other European and American gays who arrive here and think they have landed in Utopia.


All big old sloppy bottoms, one can safely assume. One would also assume you'd have no need to come to Thailand.

Anyway, I'm glad you guys are having fun. But I I'll bet you anything your Saudi gay counterparts feel like they have landed in anything but Utopia.

I am trying to avoid being drawn into another inevitably pointless and fruitless debate with anyone who simply cannot accept that many gays, as allieb puts it, "dont want Gay Prides and are not the kind of person who shouts from the rooftops "look at me I take it up the ass"" (not quite how I would have phrased it, but pretty lucid). Unfortunately some gays see their fellow gays who simply want to be allowed to live their lives like anybody else (which most of us already are) as some sort of traitor while they picture themselves as martyrs who are prepared to risk the slings and arrows of the rest of the world to make things "better" for all of us (whether we want their brand of "better" or not).

While discrimination and prejudice exists everywhere, and it probably always will, a certain amount of it has to be due to those who feel the need to be "proud" to be black/white/muslim/christian/gay/lesbian etc, etc above all else and to "look after one of our own" regardless of whether it is justified or not or whether it is at the expense of others. This has led to a backlash against many minorities, particularly where they demanded (and often got) positive discrimination, and so the inevitable see-saw continues as those in the spotlight are recognised not because they are good leaders, businessmen, soldiers, sportsmen and women, or even good people, but because they are outstanding blacks, gays, etc, etc.

I have never felt the need to "stand up" and be counted. What gives me any right to be counted any differently to anyone else? Nothing. If someone confronts me I will stand up for myself and what I percieve to be my rights, but that is very different from looking for and even deliberately provoking confrontation, particularly when it is done from a distance.

I accept that without some of the pressure brought to bear by some of those who have been persecuted for their beliefs/colour etc, while they could have taken the easy way out and done nothing, many of the changes that have happened in the last hundred years or so would have been a lot longer coming. I also have the greatest respect for those individuals who have shown by their personal example that race, religion, creed, colour, sex, sexual preference and even physical handicap, under certain circumstances, are irrelevant.

What I have no respect for are the bigots of any type who are quite happy (even "proud") to lie, distort the truth and fabricate statements and evidence in order to support their case. If a case is unable to stand on its own merits then it does not deserve to stand at all and those making it are a disgrace to the cause they are claiming to represent.

In this particular case, do I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a nice guy, liberal in outlook, with any interest in democracy and human rights (as we in the West see them) or "gay liberation", or that Iran is a "gay friendly society", by Western or any other standards? No, not under any circumstances. Did he, however, as is widely reported, say at Columbia University in 2007 "In Iran we don't have homosexuals." ? NO HE DID NOT. What he actually said was "тАЬIn Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon ...тАЭ which is a simple statement of fact; the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel).

I am all in favour of rational discussion, but that is impossible when the discussion descends to personal abuse, fabrication and distortion and ignores the real issues.




Hello, K t. It was not me who "brought Iran into this argument"; it had already been mentioned by BB (hence my quoting him) well before he wrote that he "was talking about ARABS, and much more specifically SAUDISтАЭ and was mentioned again by him after that and by others before I made my posting. It was clearly also of interest to those who responded to it. While your question may concern the Arabs, the Saudis and Israel, etc, that was no more the original point than Iran; I had not realised that you had been appointed sole arbiter of the direction of threads here. "Sometimes, K t, I really wonder where your head is" - and I expect that question will probably get answered too!.

[Wesley]

Khor tose

Beach Bunny Hates and despises Arabs as did his previous two identities. He also thinks he is an authority on everything. The only audiance he has is here on an anonymous message board. Sad isn't it. Look how many post he's made in the lifespan of Beach Bunny 970 in less than 7 months.

I could not agree more, it is sad. He has placed himself in the same catagory as the idiots in America who wear white sheets, the Nazi who felt they were the master race, and all the zealots of the world who know they have the "only answer".

The Bunny in many posts has stated his unflinching hatred for the Arabs, I personally myself Have no reason to visit there but, their culture is not my business. In time they like the rest of the world will change into a secular non repressive style of government. Likely not in our life time but it will come. I do agree that in the home teh Arabs are less likely to investigate, however publicly it is an abomination and the Qumran ( Koran ) bares it out.

Wes

[Brad the Impala]

Khor Tose, what is "backward", what is "forward"? It all depends where you are standing.

I have followed this thread from the start, and while I was interested in the chronology of the "Blue Diamond Affair", which I hadn't previously seen laid out as clearly before, I felt that it was a waste of time to post in the subsequent exchange of exaggerated viewpoints. Entrenched views seldom make for good debate, particularly when they are based on a subjective term like "gay friendly".

Of course in most Arab cultures it is easy to find men for sex, particularly if you are the passive partner. On the other hand homosexuals are generally looked down on by society at large, and it is legal to discriminate against a person purely because of their sexuality. In Saudi Arabia as well as Iran the potential penalty for sodomy is death. To most people that doesn't sound like a gay friendly situation!

I got involved in the thread to counter the absurd proposition that the high number of cases of surgical regendering in Iran is an indicator that the regime is not anti gay! Apart from the equating of transexuals with homosexuals that this comment infers, anecdotal evidence suggests that a number of those undergoing this surgery are homosexual men, rather than transexuals, who are undergoing this mutilation because they cannot get acceptance as homosexuals in their society. By becoming "women" they are merely "sick" rather than "sinners". Thus the high number of cases is an indicator of the repression, rather than a liberal viewpoint.

This of course seems a much less gay friendly regime than one in which there are only occasional outbreaks of extremist violence like Israel or Holland or the UK. At least in these countries gay men know that the law is on their side and requires that they to be treated equally and fairly by the law.

As for BB's Saudi phobia, which seems extreme, who knows what causes it? I have had no dealings with the Saudis, so have no personal knowledge. Nevertheless it grates to hear a nation described in the terms that he uses. Hyperbole perhaps?

[allieb]

Khor tose I do agree that in the home teh Arabs are less likely to investigate, however publicly it is an abomination and the Qumran ( Koran ) bares it out.Wes

As it is i The Bible and The Tora

[Wesley]

As it is i The Bible and The Tora[/quote]

I agree, the Bible and the Torah are anti gay in content, however most places that are said to be christian or, Democratic have over come the problems by secularization of society, which lets a person be who he is if he is, if he willing to put up with the social bias and hatred spewed put out by the church or synagogue. I would say the Jews are a bit further ahead in some ways than the Christians but, I failed to understand or missed the last news on the rally held last in Israel. I am relatively sure in the USA most Jews may say one thing openly and another at home. However, the more a country secularizes, the more likely it is that we will be allowed to live as equals in society.

I like Brad have not visited Saudi Arabia but, have lived in Muslim countries. I will say that it varies from one country to another . But, basically it will not be well received and the punishment is death not intolerance socially. Thus, the Christians are less likely to hang you for being gay as it would be the same in Israel.

The case with the 16 year old which was hung for being gay in Iran was enough proof for me, that things can get out of hand, especially in the more rural area's of Muslim countries where people are less educated and more likely to be more literal in the translation of the Koran.

All the best,

Wes

[Khor tose]

Khor Tose, what is "backward", what is "forward"? It all depends where you are standing.
I have followed this thread from the start, and while I was interested in the chronology of the "Blue Diamond Affair", which I hadn't previously seen laid out as clearly before, I felt that it was a waste of time to post in the subsequent exchange of exaggerated viewpoints. Entrenched views seldom make for good debate, particularly when they are based on a subjective term like "gay friendly".

Of course in most Arab cultures it is easy to find men for sex, particularly if you are the passive partner. On the other hand homosexuals are generally looked down on by society at large, and it is legal to discriminate against a person purely because of their sexuality. In Saudi Arabia as well as Iran the potential penalty for sodomy is death. To most people that doesn't sound like a gay friendly situation!

I got involved in the thread to counter the absurd proposition that the high number of cases of surgical regendering in Iran is an indicator that the regime is not anti gay! Apart from the equating of transexuals with homosexuals that this comment infers, anecdotal evidence suggests that a number of those undergoing this surgery are homosexual men, rather than transexuals, who are undergoing this mutilation because they cannot get acceptance as homosexuals in their society. By becoming "women" they are merely "sick" rather than "sinners". Thus the high number of cases is an indicator of the repression, rather than a liberal viewpoint.

This of course seems a much less gay friendly regime than one in which there are only occasional outbreaks of extremist violence like Israel or Holland or the UK. At least in these countries gay men know that the law is on their side and requires that they to be treated equally and fairly by the law.

As for BB's Saudi phobia, which seems extreme, who knows what causes it? I have had no dealings with the Saudis, so have no personal knowledge. Nevertheless it grates to hear a nation described in the terms that he uses. Hyperbole perhaps?

Brad, I have highlighted some of the things in your post. Yes is does matter where you stand. As a gay man I am usually, but not always, on the left or radical side of issues where I advocate for change. I guess you can say I see history as a progression with more and more people being responsible for, and deciding, their own fate. Of course this is not a smooth or linear path as it has many ups and downs and reversals. Nevertheless, I see a steady progress to a kind of greater pluralism in the world. I clearly see things like racism, religious bigotry, and homophobia to be blocks in our upward path. The right or reactionary view of the world is that every thing is fine the way it is. It is more important to respect tradition and not mess with stability then it is to forge new ways of doing things. So you are perfectly correct forward and backward are definitely indeterminate terms.
Sorry about the comment to start reading from the beginning, I see now you were just responding to GF.
Not hyperbole, but racism as his "facts" are not based on the reality of the region (Saudi Arabia or Israel).

[Khor tose]

Hello, K t. It was not me who "brought Iran into this argument"; it had already been mentioned by BB (hence my quoting him) well before he wrote that he "was talking about ARABS, and much more specifically SAUDISтАЭ and was mentioned again by him after that and by others before I made my posting. It was clearly also of interest to those who responded to it. While your question may concern the Arabs, the Saudis and Israel, etc, that was no more the original point than Iran; I had not realised that you had been appointed sole arbiter of the direction of threads here. "Sometimes, K t, I really wonder where your head is" - and I expect that question will probably get answered too!.


Yes, it will get answered. I was tired last night and completely agree that I do not control this or any other thread. Commodo Mea Culpa. I do know when I am wrong, and in my response to your post, I was clearly wrong.

[Wesley]

Yes, it will get answered. I was tired last night and completely agree that I do not control this or any other thread. Commodo Mea Culpa. I do know when I am wrong, and in my response to your post, I was clearly wrong.




I am not sure anyone, with maybe the exception of BB is wrong or right. This is a tough subject and goes to the very marrow of Gay society.

After 40 Years of being ostracized in at least five countries for being gay, it may give me some advantage, in as much as it feels the same in every language and country. If that is too subjective, then let it be over the line of objectivity.

However, it cuts to the very marrow and the hearts of every gay person on the forum who has been at one time or another hurt by family friends and brothers and sisters as well as our own community or the church or synagogue.

My brother, on his death bed had not spoken to me in 20 years since he found out I was gay, when he was taking his last breath in his death bed with cancer. He took his last little bit of energy to turn over and ignore me when I came to visit him; still dying and not able to forgive me for who I was. He never did speak and if he were alive today he still would not be speaking.

I think all of us at one time or another has felt this type of rejection. I think it may be why some of us have become bitter old queens. We have seen the worst come out of people we trusted the most with our feelings.

It is not wrong, it is human whether you are in Chaing Mai or Seattle. The pain remains the same. I would dare to say in our own way none may not be wrong, it is a subjective subject and I am not sure you can make it objective enough to solve.

We all have our own demons to deal with and it is what defines us as humans. It has been the worst times in my life that brought the best out in me. Hurt, pain, rejection and failure can become stepping-stones or stumbling blocks. I think it depends on how different people deal with all of this that makes us all unique and human.

Again, all the best,

Wes

[allieb]

Wealey

I have two nephews, one won't speak to me, he wont even be in the same building as me. When I visit my brother he leaves home and doesn't return until I have left. The other is quite comfortable with my lifestyle. The homphobic one is 35 years old and unmarried. I never hear of any girlfriends. I sometimes wonder if he is gay and unable to deal with it.

The last time I visited my brother he told me that his son had a disorder which makes him feel he can catch homosexulaity, from either talking to or being in the same room as as one. I simply responded that in my eyes he only had one son the other had passed away long ago. Case closed.

All the educational TV programes or Gay prides in the world aren't going to change situations like this. Some people are beyond reach as your brother was Wesley.

[Wesley]

Wealey

I have two nephews, one won't speak to me, he wont even be in the same building as me. When I visit my brother he leaves home and doesn't return until I have left. The other is quite comfortable with my lifestyle. The homphobic one is 35 years old and unmarried. I never hear of any girlfriends. I sometimes wonder if he is gay and unable to deal with it.

The last time I visited my brother he told me that his son had a disorder which makes him feel he can catch homosexulaity, from either talking to or being in the same room as as one. I simply responded that in my eyes he only had one son the other had passed away long ago. Case closed.

All the educational TV programes or Gay prides in the world aren't going to change situations like this. Some people are beyond reach as your brother was Wesley.

I think you are right, misinformation, plain prejudice and lack of education or, the willingness to learn and general homophobia, may not have a cure at all. I accept my situation although it was not all that easy. I think I m the better man than I was when I was cowering in the closet at 15. I came out at 26, it was a long time realizing I could not outrun my self. Since then I have never been so happy.

In my opinion they are the losers not me. I am at peace and they still stuggle with thir contrived sin pain and paranoia of something they will never understand. Likely the same things that left you gay is also a constant battle with them. I guess, at least with my brother , I will never know. You still have a chance to find out. I certainly wish you all the best in your quest to be yourself in a world of people who refuse to understand us.

Again,

All the best,

Wes

[allieb]

Beach Bunny

Perhaps you would like to read this mornings Jerusalem Post. Here is an clip from the article

Human rights organizations and worker's rights groups have heavily criticized the common practice of charging fees that range from $5,500 to $12,500 per worker by Thai and Israeli employment agencies for bringing the workers to Israel. They proposed that instead of using financially motivated private companies, it would be better to import migrant workers through the International Organization for Migration, an intergovernmental organization based in Switzerland which works to ensure the orderly and humane management of migration.

According to a report by Dan Cooper from Kav LaOved (Worker's Hotline), agricultural workers make the lowest wages of all sectors, averaging NIS 12.80 per hour, and often have huge debts to pay back for the commission fees charged by the employment agencies.

The full story is here http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418582610&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

BTW. Your business in Bangkok isn't an employment agency sending Thai workers to Israel is it?

I am not sure anyone, with maybe the exception of BB is wrong or right.

And you know know...how, exactly? Since you profess to have me on ignore?

According to a report by Dan Cooper from Kav LaOved (Worker's Hotline), agricultural workers make the lowest wages of all sectors, averaging NIS 12.80 per hour, and often have huge debts to pay back for the commission fees charged by the employment agencies.


NIS 12.80 is equivalent to 113 baht. Farmers in Thailand can only dream of making 113 baht per hour. That is more than what a nurse, pharmacist, or junior lawyer makes!

Yes...being a foreign laborer in Saudi sounds so much better:

While there is no official minimum wage for citizen workers, the unofficial private sector minimum wage was $400 (1,500 riyals) per month, which is based on the minimum monthly contribution to the pension system. There is no official minimum wage for noncitizen workers where they exist; bilateral agreements set wages for noncitizen workers. Individual contracts also set wages that varied according to the type of work performed and the nationality of the worker.

There were many difficult situations for foreign workers. For example, in March an Indonesian domestic worker fled from her employers, alleging severe physical abuse. Similarly, another Indonesian domestic worker fled her employers in March after 10 years' of uncompensated work and confinement to the house. A Sri Lankan maid was rescued in September after enduring 10 years of forced labor in Riyadh; she received only $7500 (20,000 SR) in back wages and no criminal charges were lodged against her sponsors. On August 8, a family reportedly beat four Indonesian maids for allegedly practicing black magic on a teenage son. Two maids died in the attack and the other two were seriously injured. The victims' seven attackers remain in police custody pending investigation.

Labor regulations establish a 48-hour work week at regular pay and allow employers to require up to 12 additional hours of overtime at time-and-a-half pay. The labor law provides for a 24-hour rest period, normally on Fridays, although the employer may grant it on another day. The average wage for citizens generally provided a decent standard of living for the worker and family.

Labor regulations require employers to protect most workers from job-related hazards and disease. Farmers, herdsmen, domestic servants, and workers in family-operated businesses were not covered by these regulations. Foreign nationals reported frequent failures to enforce health and safety standards.

Foreign nationals recruited to work in the country frequently experienced serious problems with their labor contracts. Foreign nationals recruited abroad have, after their arrival in the country, been presented with work contracts that specified lower wages and fewer benefits than originally promised. Other foreign workers have signed contracts in their home countries and later were pressured to sign less favorable contracts upon arrival. Some employees reported that, at the end of their contract service, their employers refused to grant permission to allow them to return home. The government distributed a booklet on foreign workers' rights that was distributed at ports of entry and foreign embassies in the country.

The labor laws, including those designed to limit working hours and regulate working conditions, do not apply to foreign domestic servants, who may not seek the protection of the labor courts. Foreign domestic workers did not have access to labor courts. Bilateral labor agreements stipulate work conditions which provide for one day of rest per week. There were credible reports that female domestic servants were sometimes forced to work 16 to 20 hours per day, seven days per week. There were numerous cases of maids fleeing employers and seeking refuge in their embassies or consulates. Foreign embassies and the media continued to receive reports of employers abusing domestic servants. Such abuse included withholding of food, beatings, other severe physical abuse, and rape.

The government continued a campaign to remove illegal aliens by widely publicizing the enforcement of existing laws against both the illegal aliens and the citizens employing or sponsoring them.

Many foreign workers were not able to exercise their right to remove themselves from dangerous situations.

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher ... 5ac,0.html (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,USDOS,,SAU,47d92c5ac,0.html)

[allieb]

Yes agreed some ugly situations. But amoung an expat labor force of about 6 million form the Asian continent. That's almost the entire population of Israel. Workers in Israel dont usually get (all found )

By the way a pepsi in an Israeli supermarket costs 3 shekels 30 baht.
In Saudi a pepsi 1 Riyal 9 Baht
A meal in a canteen style restaurant in Israel for workers about 25 shekels 250 baht
A meal a simple Asian restaurants in Saudi similar to Black Canyon or S & P 10SR 90 baht ( Fried rice chicken and black mushrooms spring roll and a drink)

The most uneducated laborous in Saudi get a minimum salary of 1500 SR 13,500 baht accomodation and food.

In the comapny I work for, the minimum wage for a Filipino is 2,500 Riyals 22,500 Baht.

There will always be cases of abuse. In Thiland amoungst the Elite there are quite a few cases of serious abuse with domestic staff.

[Beachlover]

ROFL... this is the perfect spat (perfect storm).

Two members, allieb and beach bunny have completely different views (you know they will never ever agree) and go a few rounds, then other members weigh in.

I read the blue diamond affair timeline at the start of the post. First time I've heard of this incident and I must say, what a completely f*cked up thing... I mean really, just incredibly f*cked up every step of the way.

[Khor tose]

[
Many foreign workers were not able to exercise their right to remove themselves from dangerous situations.[/i]
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher ... 5ac,0.html (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,USDOS,,SAU,47d92c5ac,0.html)

Hey Boygenius thank you for this web site. This is one great reference source. Unlike our Bunny friend, I have a real life outside of the virtual life on this board so I was not able to go through all 1310 negative report on Israel on this site, compared to 394 for Saudi Arabia. However, I was able to read page after page of reports on how badly Israel treats its own and foreign Arab citizens. This is the country you want gays to rally around---you really are kidding right. I have to go now and post this fabulous site on Bahtstops. There is enough here to give the cut and paste stars on that site an orgasmic delight.
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher ... 5ac,0.html (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,USDOS,,SAU,47d92c5ac,0.html)[/quote]

[Khor tose]

ROFL... this is the perfect spat (perfect storm).

Two members, allieb and beach bunny have completely different views (you know they will never ever agree) and go a few rounds, then other members weigh in.

I read the blue diamond affair timeline at the start of the post. First time I've heard of this incident and I must say, what a completely f*cked up thing... I mean really, just incredibly f*cked up every step of the way.


I completely agree, it is definitely an only in Thailand thing. I would recommend you google it and you will come up with even more great stuff. Just about every level of Thai society is involved in this theft and cover-up. This seems to be the Blog entry that Allieb quoted at the start of this thread, but do google it.

http://jotman.blogspot.com/2009/08/time ... ffair.html (http://jotman.blogspot.com/2009/08/timeline-of-blue-diamond-affair.html)

I should have expected such a stupid response from you.

Everyone knows that Israel is a multi-cultural society with huge conflicts between the different groups (understatement of the decade?). It is divided, basically in a state of civil war, with frequent terrorist attacks and huge security issues.

Yet, it is the only one in its region where the rights of gay people are protected by law, and where there is a thriving, open gay scene...even a burgeoning gay porn industry.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big ... ottie.html (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2009/07/men-of-israel-the-new-box-office-hottie.html)


Of course, that can only be said about its Jewish areas. Don't look for it in any area where the Palestinians form any significant part of the population.

And, its overseas workers are treated much more like humans and less like chattel than they are in any Arab country. Not to mention that they are allowed to live by their own cultural standards -- no bed sheets on women's heads, the sexes can mingle, people can practice their own religions openly, they can drink and eat pork, own and look at pornography, and have unrestricted access to the internet. All without fear of public amputation or the lash. How modern!

[Khor tose]

Of course, that can only be said about its Jewish areas. Don't look for it in any area where the Palestinians form any significant part of the population.

I am sorry, I did not know there were any Palestinians living in Israel, except for the very old. Aren't they citizens of Israel who are being treated by a completely different standard then even the Jews who are recent immigrants? Gee, I guess many of those 1310 human rights complaints are wrong. Of course, once the Israeli arabs are finally kicked out of Israel---half of whom are Christian--I am sure that Israel will stay united, and gay rights will be secure. I mean just because there are more Orthodox now then secular Jews is no reason to think they would adopt a seperate series of laws to deal with their gay jewish brothers, the way they do with their fellow Israeli citizens. As I have often repeated that, at the moment, Israel is more gay friendly then Saudi Arabia, but if you think once the external threat is gone it is going to stay that way you are blind. Religious fanatics are the same be they Christian, Jewish or Moslem and I hope, nay even pray, you are retired in Israel when this occurs.

Hedda?

The best and worse places in the world to be gay, according to DNA Magazine:

http://www.dnamagazine.com.au/articles/ ... ws_id=6695 (http://www.dnamagazine.com.au/articles/news.asp?news_id=6695)

Not surprisingly, Saudi is among the five worst -- along which such enlightened places as Nigeria, Iran, Jamaica, and Afghanistan.

Tel Aviv is among the five cities cited as "most improved in terms of acceptance and thriving gay cultures"...along with Shanghai, Delhi, Cape Town, and Havana.

I guess they forgot to poll allieb...who thinks there is no better place in the world to get one's assed plowed than in Riyadh -- behind closed doors and curtains, of course, and while keeping an eye out for the religious police who would love nothing more than to see you decapitated in a public square.

Oh, the unfairness of it all.

Thank you, sir...may I have another?

http://www.gbmnews.com/articles/1626/1/ ... Page1.html (http://www.gbmnews.com/articles/1626/1/Saudi-Arabia-7000-lashes-for-being-gay/Page1.html)

Excellent place for an SM bottom.

The case with the 16 year old which was hung for being gay in Iran was enough proof for me

Wes,

I can only repeat what I wrote the second time (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand/the-war-sin-t15734-15.html?hilit=ayaz%20marhoni#p155371) you made this exact same point:

"You are, presumably, referring to the two Iranians (Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni) who were hung not for being gay, despite claims of this in the more extremist gay press such as Outrage!, but for the abduction at knife point and subsequent gang rape of a 13 year old boy by five men.

Human Rights Watch and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, amongst others such as the Dutch Interior Ministry who investigated this, specifically said that тАЬIt was not a gay caseтАЭ, as I have already posted at considerable length here with full supporting details and references should you wish to verify this."

If all the "proof" you require is a mis-translation (deliberate or accidental) published by Peter Tatchell of a deliberately inaccurate report written by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (a group listed as a terrorist organisation by both Iran and the USA) which ommited all the more serious charges in order to discredit the Iranian government, then your idea of the burden of proof would seem to be rather less than you have professed it to be on other issues.

I was tempted to point out that this was a perfect example of the point I made on those "who are quite happy (even "proud") to lie, distort the truth and fabricate statements and evidence in order to support their case", but as that (I hope) applies to Peter Tatchell and you simply continue to be misled that could have been unfair. Instead I would ask you to look at it in the light of the view that "misinformation, plain prejudice and lack of education or, the willingness to learn" by homophiles (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Homophile) as well as homophobes "may not have a cure at all". Prejudice cuts both ways.

I have the greatest sympathy for the rejection both you and allieb have suffered, Wes, believe me; maybe if I had "felt this type of rejection" myself I would feel differently now but (so far) I never have, probably because I have never felt the need to "come out" about my sexuality any more than about any other personal details such as my school, titles, decorations and awards (if any!), religion, etc, etc. As I have seldom felt the need to ask such personal questions of others, taking people as I found them, I can see no reason to force that type of information on others unless it is relevant or requested. As I have seldom been asked such questions (except on this board!) I am apparently one of the lucky ones.





..... I see now you were just responding to GF. Not hyperbole, but racism as his "facts" are not based on the reality of the region (Saudi Arabia or Israel).

....Commodo Mea Culpa. I do know when I am wrong, and in my response to your post, I was clearly wrong.

I do not want to press the point unfairly, K t, and I regret all the above has been "off issue", but does that mean that you agree with me that "the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel" and Saudi Arabia), or are you saying that one (or both?) have a similar open gay culture to the USA?

I have actually tried to avoid taking sides in the discussion as it now stands, since there are valid arguments on both sides - what I find disappointing, but hardly surprising though, is that rather than produce the valid arguments it is just another repeat of "Conlige suspectos semper habitos".

Maybe my old friend Q H Flaccus had it right: "Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt."

[Wesley]

[quote=Wesley]The case with the 16 year old which was hung for being gay in Iran was enough proof for me

Wes,

I can only repeat what I wrote the second time (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand/the-war-sin-t15734-15.html?hilit=ayaz%20marhoni#p155371) you made this exact same point:

"You are, presumably, referring to the two Iranians (Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni) who were hung not for being gay, despite claims of this in the more extremist gay press such as Outrage!, but for the abduction at knife point and subsequent gang rape of a 13 year old boy by five men.

Human Rights Watch and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, amongst others such as the Dutch Interior Ministry who investigated this, specifically said that тАЬIt was not a gay caseтАЭ, as I have already posted at considerable length here with full supporting details and references should you wish to verify this."

If all the "proof" you require is a mis-translation (deliberate or accidental) published by Peter Tatchell of a deliberately inaccurate report written by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (a group listed as a terrorist organisation by both Iran and the USA) which ommited all the more serious charges in order to discredit the Iranian government, then your idea of the burden of proof would seem to be rather less than you have professed it to be on other issues.

I was tempted to point out that this was a perfect example of the point I made on those "who are quite happy (even "proud") to lie, distort the truth and fabricate statements and evidence in order to support their case", but as that (I hope) applies to Peter Tatchell and you simply continue to be misled that could have been unfair. Instead I would ask you to look at it in the light of the view that "misinformation, plain prejudice and lack of education or, the willingness to learn" by homophiles (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Homophile) as well as homophobes "may not have a cure at all". Prejudice cuts both ways.

I have the greatest sympathy for the rejection both you and allieb have suffered, Wes, believe me; maybe if I had "felt this type of rejection" myself I would feel differently now but (so far) I never have, probably because I have never felt the need to "come out" about my sexuality any more than about any other personal details such as my school, titles, decorations and awards (if any!), religion, etc, etc. As I have seldom felt the need to ask such personal questions of others, taking people as I found them, I can see no reason to force that type of information on others unless it is relevant or requested. As I have seldom been asked such questions (except on this board!) I am apparently one of the lucky ones.





..... I see now you were just responding to GF. Not hyperbole, but racism as his "facts" are not based on the reality of the region (Saudi Arabia or Israel).

....Commodo Mea Culpa. I do know when I am wrong, and in my response to your post, I was clearly wrong.

I do not want to press the point unfairly, K t, and I regret all the above has been "off issue", but does that mean that you agree with me that "the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel" and Saudi Arabia), or are you saying that one (or both?) have a similar open gay culture to the USA?

I have actually tried to avoid taking sides in the discussion as it now stands, since there are valid arguments on both sides - what I find disappointing, but hardly surprising though, is that rather than produce the valid arguments it is just another repeat of "Conlige suspectos semper habitos".

Maybe my old friend Q H Flaccus had it right: "Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt."[/quote:26pkxpxc]

Naturally, I cannot say that you are wrong, only that the picture of the guys hanging was what still permeates my mind and not your post about it. I realize now that it was mentioned before and you responded in kind. For me it was such a despicable picture that it has never cleared my mind , in as much as I can't remember a time when my heart went out to anyone more than then when I saw those pictures. I guess it is so, a picture is worth a thousand words, for surely it is what was left with me over and over, what I saw not what you said. Maybe this time it will stick with me. I faintly remembered when I posted that that there was some dispute about it but could not remember the details. As usual I respond openly to your factual statements with the assumption you have made the usual research about this matter. BTW I usually don't just post out of habit, as per your Latin.

As to my life I was married, by the time the divorce was over everyone knew I was gay, It was not my preference but, it did leave me with a sense of liberty that few people share. I prefer to suffer in honesty about my self than to hide what I believe to be the real me behind my conscience. If for you it was a matter about your job then I take that as a personal choice you had to make to survive. In that I I believe you had no recourse.

All the best!

Wes

[Beachlover]

ROFL... this is the perfect spat (perfect storm).

Two members, allieb and beach bunny have completely different views (you know they will never ever agree) and go a few rounds, then other members weigh in.

I read the blue diamond affair timeline at the start of the post. First time I've heard of this incident and I must say, what a completely f*cked up thing... I mean really, just incredibly f*cked up every step of the way.


I completely agree, it is definitely an only in Thailand thing. I would recommend you google it and you will come up with even more great stuff. Just about every level of Thai society is involved in this theft and cover-up. This seems to be the Blog entry that Allieb quoted at the start of this thread, but do google it.

http://jotman.blogspot.com/2009/08/time ... ffair.html (http://jotman.blogspot.com/2009/08/timeline-of-blue-diamond-affair.html)

Thanks Khor tose, I also looked at this more concise version of events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Diamond_Affair

Totalled f*cked. I mean, not only did the Saudi Royal have $20m (+inflation) stolen from him, the Thais were even stupid enough to kill a business man close to the Saudi royals and 3 Saudi embassy workers. Even worse... they then go onto return a bunch of fakes and then do a botched job of hiding the deception! And the murder of the family is just as f*cked...

I guess people are greedy... and sometimes this gets away from them.

[Khor tose]

Thanks Khor tose, I also looked at this more concise version of events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Diamond_Affair
Totalled f*cked. I mean, not only did the Saudi Royal have $20m (+inflation) stolen from him, the Thais were even stupid enough to kill a business man close to the Saudi royals and 3 Saudi embassy workers. Even worse... they then go onto return a bunch of fakes and then do a botched job of hiding the deception! And the murder of the family is just as f*cked...

I guess people are greedy... and sometimes this gets away from them.

What is really f*cked is that while the Thai upper class seemed to have profited from the theft, the working class Thais lost out on about 50,000 jobs and Thailand lost out on 1.5 Billion of income a year these workers would have made.

[Khor tose]

The best and worse places in the world to be gay, according to DNA Magazine:
http://www.dnamagazine.com.au/articles/ ... ws_id=6695 (http://www.dnamagazine.com.au/articles/news.asp?news_id=6695)

You have got to be kidding. I am to believe this article that is reprinted from the "The Independent", a Murdoch rag similar to Foxx news and the National Enquirer.

I do believe the lashing episode because it was widly reported. Still does not compare to machine gunning a buch of youths. Furthermore, how would this make all Arabs-especially Saudis--hairy, smelly, hypocritical assesтАЭ. They do not share a common humanity, and they cannot change the way the West has changed? Where do you think they are from, Mars?. I suppose that goes for the poor souls who were whipped too. Now you can call them "hairy,smelly hypocrital asses with bloody backs and laugh about it.

[Khor tose]

I do not want to press the point unfairly, K t, and I regret all the above has been "off issue", but does that mean that you agree with me that "the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel" and Saudi Arabia), or are you saying that one (or both?) have a similar open gay culture to the USA?

At the moment to be "out and open" exit in Israel and places in Lebanon, and a little bit in Turkey, but nowhere else in the middle East. In Israel the religious right has tried to stop the gay marches in Jerusalem, and some MK's even proposed a bill in their Parliament to that effect, but it went nowhere. This year the gays changed the direction of the marches, the marchers wore shirts and the Ultra Orthodox stayed away because they did not want to expose their youth to the march. However, there are now more UOs in Israel then secular Jews. Only the need to have a common front against the Palastinians keeps the UOs from going after the gays. These are religious Zealots (a good Jewish word). Our debate is not whether or not Moslems--as a general rule--are against open homosexuality, because they are, but whether or not they are all "hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses" and incapable of changing---like the West's attitude on gays has changed. Originally he suggested that Thais were so much better off without the Saudis and the 50,000 jobs and 1 1/2 billion in revenue they could have made, but he dropped that.

Still does not compare to machine gunning a buch of youths.

Finally...you are right about something.

The lashings were a state-sponsored execution of the formalized, deep-seated, institutionalized and legal discrimination of gays in Saudi Arabia.

The shootings in Israel were the work, of a lone gunman, the crazed individual that exists in every society, and a rare but not unknown act anywhere, that is not only illegal, but is condemned by every echelon of society (including all of the ultra-Orthodox groups which you seem to believe should support it).

Oh, perhaps the Palestinian groups did not come out against it because, you know, they're Arabs and they think those perverts deserved it.

So DNA magazine is a "Murdoch rag"...so what, exactly? Are you saying that their choices are wrong? Politically motivated? Are you saying that Saudi should be in the top five best instead of the top five worst? What are you saying, exactly? It seems so outrageous, I have to stop for clarification.

[Khor tose]

[quote="Khor tose":1duzqyo1]
Still does not compare to machine gunning a bunch of youths.
Finally...you are right about something.
The lashings were a state-sponsored execution of the formalized, deep-seated, institutionalized and legal discrimination of gays in Saudi Arabia.
The shootings in Israel were the work, of a lone gunman, the crazed individual that exists in every society, and a rare but not unknown act anywhere, that is not only illegal, but is condemned by every echelon of society (including all of the ultra-Orthodox groups which you seem to believe should support it).
So DNA magazine is a "Murdoch rag"...so what, exactly? Are you saying that their choices are wrong? Politically motivated? Are you saying that Saudi should be in the top five best instead of the top five worst? What are you saying, exactly? It seems so outrageous, I have to stop for clarification.[/quote:1duzqyo1]

You still do not read very well do you. DNA did not conduct that poll, they reprinted it from the Independent, very questionable source to say the least. They probably ran a poll of the office workers after writting the article on the women raped by UFO aliens. That instances you reported was well reported and it was terrible. Both Allieb and I have been telling you from the start that public displays (like a gay marriage) are prohibited. All we have said from the start is that you can be gay in Saudi Arabia just not out. Now answer the question as to why all Arab---apparently the ones whipped too---are all "hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses, and why they lack the humanity to change their culture the way the West has changed their attitudes towards Homosexuality. Also, since you have nothing else to do, and you made the claim, show me where the Ultra Ortodox have condemned the shooting.

I think this has to be a record for going off topic.
I was going to suggest to Allieb that he change the topic header but on second thought maybe it should stand as a prime example of Sawatee Stupidity.

It was actually an interesting chronology. I had heard the story before but never paid too much attention. It's certainly a story worth a book treatment.
One thing that caught my eye was that it all started in the late 80's and certainly before the "troubles" in '92. I think one could make a case that it was the most corrupt and venial period of recent Thai history.
Now that would be a much more interesting subject for Bunny to talk about. He was there then wasn't he?

But please, don't let me stop youse guyse from channeling Hedda.

[Wesley]

As much of this is about BB, I am sure by now he has seen my post that he is the only one I have on ignore List, which to get ignored by me the last one to be called an intellectual, is probably the greatest put down of all.

I will quote our wonderful Homiturn in this matter , often you are quoted and I have no option, secondly I don't need to read your post to get under your skin. I can just push the right buttons and shazam there you appear as a little slit in the thread saying," this person is on you ignore list". I need to do nothing more then.

So, as did Homiturn I know what buttons to push to get under your skin and the fact that you are officially a racist proclaims even the more reason to keep you on ignore.

I suppose now you are going to try to black mail me the way inyou did in your PM to homiturn I read. Bad luck I came out a long time ago. I have nothing to hide. have fun. I wonder what incarnation you will take now that everyone knows you are the famed BG that has been run off the forum several times only to come back in some sort of incarnation. Ah, but your prejudice always gives you away. How sad that your inner hate defines you, your posting and your incarnations of whoever in the next one you think you are. People like you can never hide under charters. You just as well put your real name on here and let everyone know who you are.

All the best!

Wes

[allieb]

Kenc

Yes this has gon right off topic into Boygeyus's agenda.

The last thing I will say about the off tipic subject is that a whipping in Saudi Arabia isn't what you think it is.


I stumbled on one some years ago whilst passing the so to speak town square. The victim isn't dragged out as they describe, he is led out and lies face down. He wears a thobe, a sort of full length shirt to the floor. He is beaten by a man with a long ratan cane who hs a copy of the Koran in his armpit to limit the force of the beating. It is by no means severe and does'nt leave any marks.

The whole episode is a total public humiliation for the victim It would leave all S & M fans rather dissapointed. It is not to be compared with the barbaric beatings in Singapore. Boygeenyus could tell you more about that as it's a place he claimed to live in at one time under one of his board names.

Lastly What the fuck does Boygeenyus know about life in other places all his information comes from what he's read in magazines and books. A virtual tourist

The ultra-Orthodox Shas party, a frequent critic of gays in Israel, issued a statement condemning the attack.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ng-11.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1203767/Police-manhunt-gunman-opened-Tel-Aviv-gay-club-killing-wounding-11.html)

Ultra-Orthodox parties condemned the shooting attack.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-02-voa4.cfm

Leaders of Shas, a party that has depicted homosexuality as blasphemy evoking divine retribution, condemned the attack

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 66567.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tel-aviv-left-stunned-after-lone-gunman-kills-two-in-youth-club-1766567.html)

The shooting drew condemnation from the Chief Rabbinate calling the attacks тАЬan unthinkable, vile crime.тАЭ It also drew condemnation from members of Shas, as well as from nearly ever tier of the Israeli political system.

http://lezgetreal.com/?p=20030

The Shas faction released a statement following the shooting in which it called for the attacker "to be found and tried. Murder is of course against the Torah's path and every attack is a contravention of the religion of Israel."

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... b-789.html (http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/08/2-killed-13-wounded-in-shooting-at-tel-aviv-gay-club-789.html)

The above is my last post on this subject.

I will not have further discussion with someone who appears to be an apologist for the public flogging of individuals whose only crime was being gay. In fact, the idea completely sickens me -- as I'm sure it does most posters on this board.

[Khor tose]

He was there then wasn't he?
But please, don't let me stop youse guyse from channeling Hedda.

Ken I am not channeling Hedda. Hedda hatred for Israeli's is just as strong as Boygenius' hatred of Arabs. I am s just trying to pin him down as the nutter racist he is. I hope you notice that he keeps avoiding the question if he really means all Arabs are
hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses. This, of course, includes the gay Arabs who have been persecuted in Saudi Arabia. He also denies their basic humanity and their ability to change their outlook on Gays. He cites Israel as a shining example of gay tolerance, in spite of a long history of homophobia by the religious right in Israel.
I am coming around to Allieb view that boygenius is just virtual, as he has just shown me how little he knows about Israeli politics. See my reply below to him.

[Khor tose]

The ultra-Orthodox Shas party, a frequent critic of gays in Israel, issued a statement condemning the attack.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ng-11.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1203767/Police-manhunt-gunman-opened-Tel-Aviv-gay-club-killing-wounding-11.html)
Ultra-Orthodox parties condemned the shooting attack.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-02-voa4.cfm
Leaders of Shas, a party that has depicted homosexuality as blasphemy evoking divine retribution, condemned the attack
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 66567.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tel-aviv-left-stunned-after-lone-gunman-kills-two-in-youth-club-1766567.html)
The shooting drew condemnation from the Chief Rabbinate calling the attacks тАЬan unthinkable, vile crime.тАЭ It also drew condemnation from members of Shas, as well as from nearly ever tier of the Israeli political system.
http://lezgetreal.com/?p=20030
The Shas faction released a statement following the shooting in which it called for the attacker "to be found and tried. Murder is of course against the Torah's path and every attack is a contravention of the religion of Israel."
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... b-789.html (http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2009/08/2-killed-13-wounded-in-shooting-at-tel-aviv-gay-club-789.html)

Bullshit, you really do not know anything about Israeli politics. I am busy right now, but as soon as I have time, allow me to educate you on the various parties in Israel--especially taking into account the results of the last election, and the present coaltion government.

[Khor tose]

The above is my last post on this subject.

I will not have further discussion with someone who appears to be an apologist for the public flogging of individuals whose only crime was being gay. In fact, the idea completely sickens me -- as I'm sure it does most posters on this board.

Why according to you they are just hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses, incapable of change or progress. Face it you are just a white robed, nazi like racist, and Allieb is correct, you only exist in this safe virtual world where you specialize in racist comments, put downs, and sarcastic remarks. You must really hate yourself at some level. :bom:

I bet this gets a response.

For me it was such a despicable picture that it has never cleared my mind , in as much as I can't remember a time when my heart went out to anyone more than then when I saw those pictures. I guess it is so, a picture is worth a thousand words, for surely it is what was left with me over and over, what I saw not what you said.

I can understand your feelings over the pictures of the hangings, but mabe you could put them into perspective by sparing a thought for the 13 year old boy who was abducted at knife point from an innocent trip to a shopping mall and then gang raped repeatedly by five men (an act observed and reported to the police by a number of witnesses from a public road who were too frightened to intervene but gave evidence at the trial). The full details are readily available.


I prefer to suffer in honesty about my self than to hide what I believe to be the real me behind my conscience. If for you it was a matter about your job then I take that as a personal choice you had to make to survive. In that I I believe you had no recourse.

I am still surprised by how many gays I meet who were married, often with children, and divorced; none I have met were "unaware" of their sexual orientation, but they simply felt obliged to "conform" by direct or indirect social or peer presure. In my case the thought simply never crossed my mind, possibly because I never met anyone who I was remotely interested in marrying or who expressed any interest in marrying me (until, in the latter case, I was living in Thailand when, for the first of only two times, I was asked if I was gay). It was not that I was consciously "hiding ...the real me" or making any sort of "personal choice" for any reason, it was simply that nobody asked! As far as "surviving" in my job was concerned the question of my sexual orientation was never raised, probably because it was of no importance and less interest to me or anyone else in comparison to my ability to do my job. As I said, apparently I am one of the luck ones.

My comment of "round up the usual suspects" was not aimed exclusively at you, but at all those going over exactly the same ground yet again with the same old arguments and the same old prejudices.

[Wesley]

Definitely the thought of the boy getting raped has its merit, here I guess life in prison is more the case not death by hanging. Not that I don't have sympathy for the boy, only that death is kind of final. Here, it bothers me that Child rape may get a few years and in some cases probation. I do not agree and think a minimum sentence of 30 years and life time probation would be more suitable.

However, as stated in my case by the time my wife had finished telling every one what she knew it seemed I guess, that it was my fault.

Yes, I would say you are a lucky one, it is awfully hard to keep people from telling others about you if you are seen in public in a gay venue. However for Thailand it may be the norm and nothing to discuss. Here however, people tend to mind your business as much as you do.

All the Best GF. I wish you the best in life and many years to follow your dreams.

Wes

Wes,

As always I respect your views and, in most cases, I agree with them. I believe that there are occasions when taking a fellow human life is not only justified but necessary; prison is not always an option and, even when it is, there are times when its aims of deterrence, re-habilitation, punishment and protection cannot be achieved.

The execution of Mahmoud Asgari was the first time that the execution of a minor in Iran had received widespread international publicity and the first real opportunity that Human Rights Watch had had to highlight the number of executions of minors in Iran which are a clear violation of both the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, both of which Iran has signed - both Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Mahoni were minors at the time of the offence and Mahmoud Asgari was still a minor when he was executed.

The opportunity was lost, however, as a direct result of repeated insistence by Peter Tatchell (in the UK) and Doug Ireland (in the US) that the executions were a "gay" issue even though more respected and moderate "gay" organisations such as the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission said it clearly was not. Peter Tatchell further blurred the issue by claiming that those questioning his version of events were "Western left-wing ... Islamist apologists of the Iranian regime" and strongly defending the National Council of Resistance of Iran and the People's Mojahedin.

Scott Long, the director of Human Rights Watch's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Rights Project wrote in Gay City News (http://www.asylumlaw.org/docs/sexualminorities/Iran072706.pdf) that this was "deeply irresponsible":

"Reliability matters. тАж.. When pictures of two young men hanged in the Iranian city of Mashad circulate in July 2005, revulsion rode with them around the world. Many felt an intense bond with the blindfolded, helpless victims. The photos brought home the death penalty's horror. Yet if a picture is worth a thousand words, it should not substitute for them. тАж.. complications and slogans sit uneasily together. тАж..

A few Iranian exile groups saw a new audience in Western gays. They began reporting multiple executions in Iran as gay-related... After four men were hanged for unspecified "sexual offenses" in Iran, Ireland found verbal similarity in the reporting enough to "strongly suggest" that they were hanged for homosexuality. The men were hanged for heterosexual rape - two for the rape of girls aged 8 and 10.тАж

If we want to challenge IranтАЩs government, we need facts. There is enough proof of torture and repression that we can do without claims of 'pogroms.'"

My point, long-winded though it may be, is that it is very easy for those with a personal agenda to divert attention away from the real issues. Peter Tatchell and Scott Long have an excuse - that is how they make their living; those who have done the same thing here (and regularly do the same on other issues) do not.

All the best Wes.

I was surprised by one news report relevant to this topic, but not by another.

I had not realised that Israel did not allow any civil (secular) marriages and that any marriage in Israel could only be made between a couple of the same religion. If, for example, a Jewish man wants to marry a Christian woman he has to go to another country to get married - and that's progressive?

I was not surprised that homosexuals in Iraq, who while by no means "liberated" under Saddam Hussein were at least free from religious persecution, were now being targeted by both religious zealots and the police and that Human Rights Watch had reported widespread abuses of homosexuals including a growing number of "disappearances" following arrests. So much for Western led progress.

[Wesley]

Wes,


My point, long-winded though it may be, is that it is very easy for those with a personal agenda to divert attention away from the real issues. Peter Tatchell and Scott Long have an excuse - that is how they make their living; those who have done the same thing here (and regularly do the same on other issues) do not.

All the best Wes.

Wow, indeed it was a bit long, however, with you I have gotten use to that. I admitted however, that I was wrong in as much as the picture of the kid had drowned out any debate about the facts that came later. So, I do agree with your close attention to the facts of the case, but remind you it was sometime ago and my mind was not able to rid itself of the picture of the boy being hanged. If not a gay issue, it was a civil and human rights issue. It nevertheless, reiterates the regime and its aim to reduce Israel to ash and never admit the Holocaust reminds me of the Hitler days where white blue eyed guys were the supreme race and then to see the same rhetoric again from them leads me to think they at best lack compassion or pay any attention to historical facts and continue even now with the protest of the youth of the country and continue to deny basic human rights and quell any one that speaks out in any way. I have no sympathy for them.

All the best GF,

Wes

It nevertheless, reiterates the regime and its aim to reduce Israel to ash and never admit the Holocaust...

Wes, I am not defending him but I prefer to see him (or anyone) condemned for something they have done or said rather than something they are only reported to have said.

What Ahmadinejad actually said was that the regime in Israel should be changed, that they have no intention of going to war with Israel, and that the holocaust should be open to investigation rather than a closed subject. His main point on the holocaust, which has some merit, is that the holocaust did not justify the forced removal of a nation from their homeland who had nothing to do with the holocaust in order for it to be given away by others.

He has made his position very clear on these issues several times following the publication of what he was reported to have said, including in an interview on MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14912050/). Worth reading (prefeably with an open mind!).


".....those who wage war are neither Muslim or Christian. Nor Jew. They really don't believe in any religion. Because all religions report peace and brotherhood. All support justice." (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad!!)

[Wesley]

I find this report as groping for straws, I don't think anyone thinks this guy has all his marbles .

I watched personally his speech at one of the Universities here and we gave him the respect we as Americans would give any person speaking. If we were to go there and say some of the same things in public we likely would be detained.
As well, the last protest of the young there I guess was a trick of the CIA and promoted by them and he genuinely was able to call himself president while the opposition was cut off from the media and those protesting the election quelled with soldiers. surly you can't believe this is a man who stands up for Human rights in this fashion would be considered politically correct. His statement that there are no homosexuals during that debate was interesting, his denial of that and calling into question the holocaust seems to me to be stretching his defense to the limit. It is sad that a country cannot admit there are gay people in the country and defends its anti Israeli rants by implying there was no Holocaust. he may not have said it outright , however he did everything but that and then tried to defend it later.

I do agree the world would be better off with out religion and religion is the usual source of most international conflicts. However, there is no need to defend such a guy in the name of anti religious antagonist. I would agree, yes religion is at best responsible for most conflicts. But denial of anti Semitic statements are not defensible either,

Wes

there is no need to defend such a guy in the name of anti religious antagonist.

I didn't. What I said was attack him for the right reasons, and there are plenty - but denying the holocaust and Homosexuals in Iran are not the right reasons, no matter how appealing they may be.

[Wesley]

there is no need to defend such a guy in the name of anti religious antagonist.

I didn't. What I said was attack him for the right reasons, and there are plenty - but denying the holocaust and Homosexuals in Iran are not the right reasons, no matter how appealing they may be.

Then tell us please GF, what are the right reasons, I happen to think human rights issues are as resolvent as any other argument,

Wes

So do I, Wes, and unless you happen to be after regime change for religious or ideological reasons (which I don't think either of us would support) human rights is the only issue. The problem is that the allegation of persecution of homosexuals does not hold up under scrutiny, at least in comparison with their neighbours such as Iraq.

What does hold up are the lack of women's rights (and the imprisonment of those protesting about it); the lack of religious freedom and government sanctioned and approved religious persecution (particularly the Bah├б'├н Faith which originated in Persia and is a monotheistic religion and quite an interesting one if you are into that sort of thing - according to a 2004 law it is not technically an offence to kill a Bahai or anyone involved with them), and apostasy (conversion from Islam) is a crime punishable by death; the mistreatment and execution of minors (despite the denials there are a considerable number of fully documented cases); the "disappearance" of those protesting against and organising opposition to the Ahmadinejad regime. The list is pretty extensive!