for all you word freaks a question about Farang, oh crap!

[topjohn5]

I really want to understand someting about this word.
Why if farang is a Thai word and one they made up. A word that they prounounce as "falang". Why in god's name do we spell it and pronounce it as farang and not falang???
I mean simply it's their word spoken the way they intend, so why? They have an R sound in the language as well as an L so if they mean for the word to sound as an L than we should spell it with an L shouldn't we?
This is not the same issue as for instance the English word "room" and they pronounce "our" word improperly as "loom"..... falang is their word.....what am I missing?
Help me understand this please!

I really want to understand someting about this word.
Why if farang is a Thai word and one they made up. A word that they prounounce as "falang". Why in god's name do we spell it and pronounce it as farang and not falang???
I mean simply it's their word spoken the way they intend, so why? They have an R sound in the language as well as an L so if they mean for the word to sound as an L than we should spell it with an L shouldn't we?
This is not the same issue as for instance the English word "room" and they pronounce "our" word improperly as "loom"..... falang is their word.....what am I missing?
Help me understand this please!

It's like this.

The Thai "r" is not exactly the same as the English "r". It is somewhere between our "r" and our "l".

Kind of like the pedal "r" in Spanish (as in the word "pero" -- if you are familiar with Spanish).

Some people pronounce it more like our "r" and some more like our "l". The more sloppily one is speaking, the closer it sounds to an "l". The closer one is speaking to "the King's Thai", like on television news, the more it sounds like an "r". Sometimes there's even a little trill in there. Either way, though, it is somewhere in between.

Traditionally, the letter "r" is used to represent the "ror rua" letter in Thai (as in the Thai word р╕Эр╕гр╕▒р╣Ир╕З -- "farang"), while the letter "l" is used for the Thai letter "lor ling" (as in р╕ер╕┤р╕З -- ling -- meaning "monkey"). The "lor ling" sound is pretty much identical to our "l".

So, "ror rua" and "lor ling" are separate and distinct, and it is therefore correct to spell "farang" with an "r" based on its Thai spelling -- even though it may sound closer to an "l" to you when spoken colloquially.

Got it?

[topjohn5]

Thank BB!
Wonderful explanation and it also explains a bunch of related things for me! :cheers:

[Khor tose]

Thank BB!
Wonderful explanation and it also explains a bunch of related things for me! :cheers:

It is a very good explanation, and when you thank Beach Bunny he should answer you with mai pehn lai. :sunny:

[quiet1]

Got it?
Got it.

Now, why the heck is the "w" sound invariably printed with the letter "v"?

e.g. Why "Sukhumvit" and not "Sukhumwit"?

Got it?
Got it.

Now, why the heck is the "w" sound invariably printed with the letter "v"?

e.g. Why "Sukhumvit" and not "Sukhumwit"?

Simple! The original transliteration was done by the French. And there is no "w" in French.

We're lucky they didn't spell it "Soukhumouit".

there is no "w" in French.

Le wagon ..... le wagonnet .....un Wallon .....une Wallonne ..... la Wallonie ..... un wardein

Infrequent, admittedly.

TJ, you appear to have forgotten a previous thread you started (on a diferent subject), which covered the origin of the word farang (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/global-forum/stop-changing-the-freaking-subject-line-the-post-t15974.html?hilit=frank) at length.

Those are all foreign words adopted into French usage.

Actually there is one more explanation. After the Chinese got to Thailand they messed up the language on "r" and "l". Thats why you get "fried lice".

Actually there is one more explanation. After the Chinese got to Thailand they messed up the language on "r" and "l". Thats why you get "fried lice".

That's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[quiet1]

Those are all foreign words adopted into French usage.
Interesting. Thanks for that trivia.

I had been wondering if somehow the Germans were involved, but couldn't figure out their connection. French makes more sense.

[topjohn5]

[quote="Beach Bunny":21p1ghoq] there is no "w" in French.

Le wagon ..... le wagonnet .....un Wallon .....une Wallonne ..... la Wallonie ..... un wardein

Infrequent, admittedly.

TJ, you appear to have forgotten a previous thread you started (on a diferent subject), which covered the origin of the word farang (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/global-forum/stop-changing-the-freaking-subject-line-the-post-t15974.html?hilit=frank) at length.[/quote:21p1ghoq]

Nope, I remembered it....which is why the "oh crap" comment on my subject line, LOL.....although, I will admit I did not go back and read it until now.....
Thanks GF, now I do care a bit more about the history of the word (I remember my eyes glazing over a bit back then since I had more "base" things on my brain). :D
I learned on that post how they take on a life of their own here at SGT since the original post had nothing to do with the word farang.....but now I realize that it can be fun sometimes seeing them go off in a different direction (as long as it isn't a pissing match of name calling).
As an aside, it was in that post that I was describing the type of guy I was interested in and was when Homi PM'd me to give me name, rank and bar of some boys he thought I'd like!
I am grateful to see however that the R and L discussion did not take place.
So, I now know, at least at this point, early AlzheimerтАЩs has not set in.....
:thumbright:

[mahjongguy]

Okay, BeachBunny, how about this? Why is the "n" sound at the end of a Thai word always represented with an "l"?

Examples: Mahidol University, name of the current monarch, etc.

Because of this weirdness in the transliteration of Thai language, Thais with limited English pronounce "Central Department Store" as "Centran".

Actually there is one more explanation. After the Chinese got to Thailand they messed up the language on "r" and "l". Thats why you get "fried lice".

Spot on and explains why they always thought us western farangs so boring when we told them we only get elections every four years.

Seriously as a newbie on here but an old timer as far coming to Sin City is concerned I can remember that twenty odd years ago when every so often, along the series of potholes that constituted a road from Don Muang there were signposts indicating that we were so many kilometres from Phattaya.

Over the years the 'h' was was gradually dropped although for a long time there was a combination of the two spellings. Im no expert but I think to be correct Phattaya should be the right spelling. The P in Pattaya is a soft P like in Phuket and Phoot (to speak) and not the hard P as in Pai (go). Im sure there are some cunning linguists out there who will put me right.

Okay, BeachBunny, how about this? Why is the "n" sound at the end of a Thai word always represented with an "l"?

Examples: Mahidol University, name of the current monarch, etc.

Because of this weirdness in the transliteration of Thai language, Thais with limited English pronounce "Central Department Store" as "Centran".

First of all, it is not always represented by an "l". Witness the word for house ("baan").

It is only represented by an "l" when it is spelled in Thai with "lor ling" at the end. (As in Mahidol). "Lor ling" at the end of a word is pronounced "n".

The transliteration reflects the Thai spelling, not the English pronunciation. Words spelled with "Nor Nu" or "nor nen" (Thai "n" sounds) are transliterated using an "N" (such as "baan" and "men" -- stinky).

The reverse is true when transliterating words like "Central" and "Oriental" into Thai. The spelling uses "lor ling", because that is the Thai "L"...but that letter happens to be pronounced as an "N" when it comes at the end of a word...hence "Orientan" and "Centran".

this is also reflected in the difficulty many Thai people have in pronouncing English worlds ending with an L, S, G, J, CH, F as these sounds dont appear at the end of Thai words. If those letters are written on the of a word they are pronounced as approximately N, T, K, T, T, P respectively. Even many well-educated Thais who have studies overseas still have difficulty with them. Similar to English speakers who have to learn how to start a syllable with р╕З ngor ngu.

[Zyxel-old]

There are a lot of inconsistency when translating Thai names to English since the rules when writing and pronouncing are specific to each language. Few examples:
- Thai language has short and long vowels which are written differently. Yang and yaaang have different meaning (the tone is also not the same so it helps to differentiate them). "r" in Sathorn does not exist in Thai, it is there to mark a long "o". It helps English speaking people but not the others. Why the Thai word "baan" (house in English) is not written "barn", following the same logic, in some luxury residences name ? Because of the meaning of "barn" in English I guess.
- Short "a" is often not written but pronounced in Thai. Thais have the habit to say Sa-ky Train instead of Sky Train because in Thai "S" followed by "K" have a pronounced but not written short "a" between them.
- "i" is sometimes written but not pronounced like in Suvarnabhumi. So why is it written in English ?
- K,T,P and Kh,Th,Ph are completely different letters in Thai. Even if not obvious to us, no Thais will confuse Taksin with Thaksin, Kay with Khay etc ...
-One example within many, the name Nopadon is written in Thai Nopadol but pronounced Nopadon. But the news papers write both ways.

To summarize, some phonetic is added in the translation but also some direct letter to letter translation but without the Thai writing rules. Anyway, Thai letters give you the clue to use the proper tone, not the roman letters, so it will be never possible to have the right pronunciation most of the time with the Thai names.

"r" in Sathorn does not exist in Thai, it is there to mark a long "o". It helps English speaking people but not the others.

I would debate that it is there to help English speakers.

I believe it is there to reflect the fact that in Thai the word is spelled with a final "ror rua".

[Zyxel-old]

I believe it is there to reflect the fact that in Thai the word is spelled with a final "ror rua".

I agree. I should have chosen the name "Porn" instead, and it is also funnier.
But then why Samut Prakan is not written Samut Prakarn ?

[Brad the Impala]

Great posts on this topic! Thanks.......and don't stop!

But then why Samut Prakan is not written Samut Prakarn ?

It often is. As always, though, there is a lot of variation -- as you know if you've driven to Pattaya and seen it spelled "Phatthaya".

[Zyxel-old]

As always, though, there is a lot of variation -- as you know if you've driven to Pattaya and seen it spelled "Phatthaya".

Phonetically "Phatthaya" is more accurate than "Pattaya". But it does not really matter I guess. I think it is impossible to keep all the Thai phonetic when using roman letters. But the "i" at the end of Suvarnabhumi should of have been dropped IMHO since it is not pronounced in Thai. And "Suwarnaphum" is more correct phonetically (IMHO again).

As always, though, there is a lot of variation -- as you know if you've driven to Pattaya and seen it spelled "Phatthaya".

Phonetically "Phatthaya" is more accurate than "Pattaya". But it does not really matter I guess. I think it is impossible to keep all the Thai phonetic when using roman letters. But the "i" at the end of Suvarnabhumi should of have been dropped IMHO since it is not pronounced in Thai. And "Suwarnaphum" is more correct phonetically (IMHO again).

"Bh" is an accepted alternative for "ph". Just ask His Majesty, whose name is Bhumibhol.

Seriously as a newbie on here but an old timer as far coming to Sin City is concerned I can remember that twenty odd years ago when every so often, along the series of potholes that constituted a road from Don Muang there were signposts indicating that we were so many kilometres from Phattaya.

Over the years the 'h' was was gradually dropped although for a long time there was a combination of the two spellings.

There still is, although now there are actually 3 different spellings between the new airport and Pattaya : Phatthaya, Phattaya and Pattaya (I can't recall a Patthaya). There is even one such spellng on South Pattaya Road, as you turn in from Sukhumvit.

[kittyboy]

[quote="Beach Bunny":3agvt1mp]As always, though, there is a lot of variation -- as you know if you've driven to Pattaya and seen it spelled "Phatthaya".

Phonetically "Phatthaya" is more accurate than "Pattaya". But it does not really matter I guess. I think it is impossible to keep all the Thai phonetic when using roman letters. But the "i" at the end of Suvarnabhumi should of have been dropped IMHO since it is not pronounced in Thai. And "Suwarnaphum" is more correct phonetically (IMHO again).

"Bh" is an accepted alternative for "ph". Just ask His Majesty, whose name is Bhumibhol.[/quote:3agvt1mp]

Beach Bunny -

There is the old joke and about
'You may be a cunning lingist but I am a master debator"..a play on cunnilingus and masturbation..but we may have to start calling you Bunny Lingus. Thanks for the thai lesson.

When you first started posting I thought you were a real ass...well I still think you are a bit of an ass but let me now add a well informed ass. And I mean that in the nicest way. Seriously.