The Boys in Brown ...

[Smiles]

Interesting article in Stickman Weekly recently << http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanB ... nBrown.htm (http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanBangkokWeeklyColumn2009/ThailandBoysInBrown.htm) >> . . . a must read if you want to understand the role of cops 'n petty corruption ~ and some not so petty ~ in Thailand.
Interesting (first hand) observations on the almost-poverty conditions low level cops generally live in, which of course underscores the general western attidtudes towards police corruption, i.e. pay them a very good salary from the get go and lower corruption very significantly. Pay your cops very low salaries, and watch corruption become obtrusive, endemic, institutionalized.

Living long term in Thailand as I do has given me a chance to think about some very fundamental goals: two of them are . . . at all times stay as far away from (1) the police, and (2) hospitals as is humanly possible. To get there, I (1) don't drive, and never will, in Thailand, and (2) eat well, drink not too much, and exercise regularly to keep oneself as healthy as possible.

[gerefan2]

Some think quite highly of Thai hospitals....
Am I missing something here?
G2

[Beachlover]

Some nice insight, Smiles.

Good or bad, it's best to avoid hospitals anyway.

[Impulse]

Some think quite highly of Thai hospitals....
Am I missing something here?
G2 Hospitals all over are not good places to be because of bacteria.Doctors and nurses often dont wash their hands as much as they should.Many people get sick this way. Living in a tropic country has many challenges. Theres no freeze to kill bacteria and insects that carry disease. Parasites abound. Walking barefoot a thread worn can enter through your foot.Eating food thats not cooked well can give you parasites like the lung fluke. Or a food handler that doesnt wash their hands after going to the bathroom can give you a worm larvae that can travel to your brain and give you a stroke. Did that person preparing your food wash their hands?Maybe not. Oh,and watch out for mosquitos and the malaria and dengue fever they can cause. Oh yes,Thailand is know for easy sex,careful of the stds. Staying healthy in Thailand can feel like your watching Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible.It can be done but you must be vigilant.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Stickman and recently Silom's blog gayboythailand likes to go on and on about the BIB and all their scams. Mostly with road block stops and having to pay fines. I don't know it all this is just exaggerated stories or selective accounts of what really happen leaving out any farang culpability in what ever happen or are genuine stories. All I know that in having lived here for 4 years and been a yearly visitor for more than 20 I have either been very lucky or these BIB scams are getting blown out of proportion.

The fear of driving in Thailand. I know quite a few farangs that tell me they will never drive in Thailand. The usual reasons are the BIB, having an accident and getting the blame because your farang and the reckless way Thais drive. First, I have never had to pay the BIB on any road in Thailand, maybe my day is coming. At all these road stops they just waive me on and no one wants to see my driver's license. I'd like to show it to someone, it was quite an adventure getting it. Second, these urban legends about farang always being in the wrong, I asked once before if anyone could relate a first hand story and got no replies, I'll ask again? Third, the roads are for the most part in excellent shape, if you drive defensively, know about the 3rd invisible lane passing method and keep your eye on the motorbikes, push-carts and other strange moving objects, it's a lot safer driving yourself than most of the "professional" hired drivers that I have experienced.

Farangs on Stickman and other sites go and and on about not having done anything wrong and had to pay a bribe. Everyone is innocent. Go and sit in traffic court in any Western city and hear everyone claim they did not do anything wrong, it's all a mistake or a big frame up.

I've driven in Thailand for 14 years. Been stopped by the cops many times -- always when I was admittedly in the wrong.

None ever asked for a hand-out, but they were probably open to one.

Had three or four accidents. Fault was irrelevent as insurance pays for the damage either way.

[TrongpaiExpat]

The police all over learn that certain places are ripe for the picking in violations. I was in Ibiza once and was up on a look out on the road and noticed all these cars getting stopped down the road for something. The cops were hiding behind some trees. I then drove down that same road, very carefully and at the intersections I stopped and then noticed the stop sign, very hard to see and the intersecting road was all a clear view, so not stopping was not really dangerous.
One week and I was doing fine with the notorious Ibiza traffic police then on my way back to the airport I needed to fill the tank before returning the car, all the gas stations were on the left side of the road. I pulled into one and was met by a cop on a motorbike, he did not speak English, but waked me to the road and pointed to a faint yellow line and said something in Evissa dialect, pointed to a man on the roof with binoculars and took my DL, wrote a ticket and then wrote a number on a pad of paper in local Currency. I think I had to pay something in the neighborhood of 200 USD.

Yes, I was wrong. Was it fair? I guess what I should have done is drove to the airport, went out the exit to get on the other side of the road then got gas and then drove to town quite some distance and made a turn someplace legal.

On Silom in the direction toward the river just past CP tower is a right turn lane only. Traffic backs up on Silom and if your in that right land good luck getting out of it before the lane becomes right turn only. The police sometimes set up just past the turn land and nab anyone going straight.

There a place in Florida, 60 min. did a spot on it years ago, where on the down side of a hill the speed limit suddenly changes to 30mph from 50. The community gets 50% of their revenue from traffic fines. AAA has called it the only designated speed trap in USA.

[aussie_]

I was stopped on the highway last week near Korat by the Police who had blocked the road.

"You are speeding, you pay 200 baht fine"

There was no proof of the speed and no reciept. The policeman put his hand inside the door to get the money so that his buddies could not see the transfer of funds.

I was not going to argue with him and I guess I had paid for his lunch and dinner.

Later the same day I was stopped again by the police, this time the alchohol testing unit.

Fortunately I got the good cops, they laughed as I made out to blow into the breath testing machine (no disposable mouth pieces like we have in farangland) and sent me on my way without asking for any money.

Interesting article in Stickman Weekly recently << http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanB ... nBrown.htm (http://www.stickmanweekly.com/StickmanBangkokWeeklyColumn2009/ThailandBoysInBrown.htm) >> . . . a must read if you want to understand the role of cops 'n petty corruption ~ and some not so petty ~ in Thailand.

Less than a month ago I wrote the following (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand/pattaya-sunee-report-needed-t17831-30.html?hilit=stickman#p180575) about Stickman's weekly column:

"Stickman's weeklycolumn is targeted specifically at Bangkok expats rather than expats in Thailand in general ("Published every Sunday, it provides a round-up of news and views for those resident in and visiting Bangkok and its surrounds"), so it can hardly be a surprise that he would pander to his target audience rather than alienate it.

Stickman is an expat foreign language teacher whose columns are a commercial enterprise which he bought into, so it can hardly be a surprise that his columns are as inventive as they are ill-informed, inconsistent and unreliable."

Nothing has changed - a "must read"? Come on, Smiles, I thought you were better informed than that.

[Brad the Impala]

Quoting your own comments from your previous posts is about as pompous as it gets on this forum.

As for anyone daring to express a contrary view, a month after Gone Fisting has deigned to tell us his opinion................ Smiles, I am shocked, how could you!

Second, these urban legends about farang always being in the wrong, I asked once before if anyone could relate a first hand story and got no replies, I'll ask again?

Why waste your time, TE?

I have been involved in two accidents with Thais; both times they were at fault. In the first incident by the time we had arrved at the police station the driver had somehow been changed and an off-duty Bangkok Police Sergeant who had "witnessed" my being at fault had appeared; despite his "evidence" the Inspector on duty said he was unable to say who he believed and who was to blame so we were told to pay our own costs (mine were minimal, the other driver's were not). The second time a number of witnesses (all Thai) said that the other driver was at fault (with no brakes on his motorbike, literally, it was pretty obvious); he had no licence or insurance, was under age, and his family had no money - they were given until 6 o'clock that evening to find some money and told to pay my remaining costs off every month, which they did.

[Smiles]

Some think quite highly of Thai hospitals....
Am I missing something here?
G2
You certainly are ... missing something that is.
I wasn't commenting on the quality of Thai hospitals, just that in general one of my life goals is stay out of them period, whether they be Thai, Canadian, or Uzbekistani.

To the trio of thai police apologists: disagree with your anecdotal-driven love-ins with the Thai police. In general (and with anecdotes of my own in hand) I'll stick with Stickman on this one ~ though conceding his commentary are based on anecdotes as well.
The Thai police are without doubt right up there with many other 3rd world country police depts in terms of corruption. The Thai version is as all-pervasive as I can think of, it being around for ever and a day. Thai folks are the main victims by a long shot . . . farang chumps are as insignificant as a dusting of snow on an iceberg.
Thai folk take police corruption with a shrug and a 'mai bpen rai' and a 'fucking polit' under the breath after driving away. Thais know there's nothing that will be done, and there's nothing that can be done: so fork over the 100, or 200, or 500 baht and just be glad the fat cop with his arm on the driver's side window and his smarmy cheshire cat grin doesn't tell you to report to a police station 50 or 60 miles away where the fine may well be five times that, and the cost of gas to get there and back adds on another three times that.

I can attest from personal experience that the police do take tea money from drivers - my BF was stopped twice while I was with him in the car, and he says he is stopped regularly. First time, he probably was speeding, and had to hand over 500 baht. Second time, he certainly wasn't speeding, so was charged only 100 baht!

According to my BF, the police target drivers with number plates which are neither from the province where the car is stopped, nor from the adjoining province the road is going to. This, presumably, minimises the risk of complaints and maximises the inconvenience of paying at the local police station. He says he never gets stopped in his home province, and he never has been when I've been trevelling with him there.

[Smiles]

You are absolutely correct Justin (see above ... I was writing my post while you were hitting 'submit' on yours) . . . they hit everyone sooner or later, but the vehicles with out-of-province plates are one of their favourite meals.

[Alaan]

Although In general I go along with Smiles on the "stay as far away from the police as possible"... unlike Smiles i'm not going to let that stop me driving in Thailand,because that is going to interfere with a good chunk of my 3 week holiday trips......so i go along with the Smiles statement in all other situations apart from motoring in Thailand ( i realise that doesn't leave many others however).

To be honest, when stopped by police in these situations i don't feel intimidated and don't go along with any opinions that farang are specifically targeted........as in most situations i am waved on......and if stopped... Bt100 paid now is preferable to Bt1000 and processing time later.

I have been visiting Thailand now for over ten years and i have always been divided in my feelings towards small time poice corruption....I don't have any problem with paying up instantly to avoid what could be a serious disruption to a holiday trip of short duration if genuinely guilty of an offence whether intentional or not.

And if you are caught in a situation where there is no doubt about your guilt for whatever offense it is handy having an easy alternative.........as opposed the guaranteed Euro/uk police processing for even the most minor offence.

However what does nag is the randomness of being selected out of a line of 10 or so motorists to give a bribe where no offence has occured. Fair enough in my opinion, being flagged down in the outside lane at 140kmph, but most of the out of town police stoppages are more like set-up road blocks where you join a slow moving or stationary line of cars and you are randomly selected.

When stopped i always smile and act politely. On all journeys I already have Bt200 in the dashboard compartment beside my International and UK driving Licenses as well as my passport. You quickly get to know if a donation is required when you hand them your license...if it is not taken out of the window to be inspected but simply handed back with the hand left dangling inside ...then i put bt100 into said mit.... normally that does the trick... if it is a more 'difficult' cop i then go to the compartment and take out the other bt100.... only on one occassion have i been hassled for more.... i left my Thai friend to negotiate and the officer finally reluctantly accepted the originally offered Bt200.

I know tales of other farangs.......especially expats......who curse and show their annoyance at being 'stopped for nothing' and sometimes get away without having to grease a palm because they are probably too much bother to the police...but i personally think that is a dangerous way to tackle the situation..even Thais i have been with when stopped always pay and never argue...and only get into a discussion when trying to negotiate a lower payment.....to chance seriously upsetting an officer in the wrong kind of mood to me is lunacy for the sake of bt100-bt200.

The korat-Bkk/Korat-KhonKaen highways just outside Korat are notorious for police road blocks and bribes. On one trip earlier this year from KhonKaen to Bkk there were 6 police stops in a 150km stretch between Korat and Saraburi...i was stopped twice and paid Bt100 only once. With regard to Aussie being stopped for a breath test..this has happened once to me in Korat too.....no problem as it was a drink free day for me.....but these stops seem to be genuine police stops with a few police and higher ranking officers in attendance..so never a request for baht if ok...but if over the limit i'm not sure what the situation would be...

On another recent trip I drove from Khon Kaen to Chiang Mai via Phitsonuloke and Sukothai and back.......probably about 1500km in 5 days and not stopped even once. So often it is just your luck.

However......I am amazed at Beach Bunny driving for 14 years...being stopped on many occasions and never being hassled for a hand out....i find that incredible.....i am not disbelieving ......just surprised when comparing my own experiences..... Am I wrong to assume that most of your driving is perhaps done in the city and not out of town where road blocks tend to be set up purely for the purpose of extracting baht .....when i make a journey which includes going via Korat i now virtually expect to pulled up at some point going or coming.

Being stopped for driving offences are one thing, and in my opinion not a big deal.....what does bother me however is the thought of being 'set up'. The one and only time i have been stopped by police other than whilst driving 'out of town'....was a few years ago in Pattaya.....when my Thai friend and I were going from day/night on his motorcycle to Kampun, soi 2 near BigC via the back roads..and we very suddenly came upon a police check-point on a dimly lit corner.....there were a few police and everybody was being stopped and frisked...they were obviously looking for drugs... the 'search' was no problem...smiles and jokes...then we were on our way...but it did occur to me as we headed off...that what if anything had been 'planted'........as the light on this back road was very dim something could easily have been planted......had there not been others stopped at the same time i would have been much more concerned about the potential for a set up.

Virtually all the Thais i know have the same 'just keep out of their way if you can' attitude ...but if hassled for a small bribe..just pay it and get out of the situation a.s.a.p.

Just my personal observations/experiences and opinions on the BIB but i would be interested in others' experiences and opinions.

[mahjongguy]

A year ago I bought a car (with BKK plates on it), then moved out of Bangkok to Jomtien. I'm much more pleased now with my life overall, and one of the joys is having a car to drive. I never get stopped in Pattaya, not even at the roadblocks on Sukhumvit. Once, a few km out of town out by the Regency School, I got waved over, but he just looked at my Drivers License and sent me on.

That all sounds good, but the story changes if I go further. Every time I go to Bangkok I get stopped as I head back to Pattaya. This happens either at the motorway entrance or at the first big toll booth.

It sucks but it's not the time or place to be self-righteous. I just want to end it and move on, but when the driver is farang the cop has to play it as a game. He can't just say, as he would to a Thai, "my boss needs cigarrettes" or "brother, can you buy me a coffee?". He's gotta say "you were speeding" or "you stayed in the right lane too long". And I've gotta play humble, confused, and a bit sad. I really hate their whole sh*t-eating grin process. It can take 20 minutes because they don't want to come out and say it.

Just think of it as a tax - after all, how much is your annual car tax in Thailand? 600 baht or so (┬г10). How much is it in the UK? ┬г150 for a small car, up to ┬г450 (┬г950 in the first year). And what about the London Congestion Charge of ┬г8 (450 baht) a day? Are the UK roads really that much better?

I read that article too Smiles, and it was an interesting view from the "other side" of police corruption.
Its really a simple rule for any country: if you don't pay the people who enforce the laws more than the people who break the laws pay them they'll look for their income on the "other side".
I tend to side with The Bunny on the subject of Thai cops: if you aren't doing anything wrong they'll leave you alone.

But if you're caught speeding you can either pay 500B to the courts or 200B to the cop who caught you.

The second option might be "corruption" but it also sounds like win-win to me.

BTW, never had any problems at all with the cops in Thailand.

(ps, I've learned to take Stickman with a grain of salt, no the least of which because he is gay/trans phobic.)

[krobbie]

The last time I was stopped by the police it was in Hua Hin. I would love to say I wasn't doing anything wrong ... unfortunately we (my guy and I) were going the wrong way on a one way street on our motocy. As it happens it was an exit road for another main road ... oops!

I did dig my boyfriend in the ribs and said "doesn't that sign mean one way" to which he replied, "no idea, I don't have a licence". Right then the BIB appeared as if sent by the motorway Gods and said I had to pay for my mates driving malfunction. Unfortunately the only money I had on me was one 100 baht and one 1000 baht note and I wasn't going to show him that. So off we went to the police station.

The BIB pulled over half way to the station and waved us over also and decided that 100 baht and some change would do the trick. I happily complied. We then were allowed to drive off even though Bobby has no licence. Go figure.

[Smiles]

" ... BTW, never had any problems at all with the cops in Thailand ... "
I've never had any trouble with police in Thailand either. My landlady's husband is a Hua Hin cop and he's a very nice guy, rather quiet, but always ready to drop over to the condo with an electric drill or a new screen door. That was rather my point that the police corruption in Thailand is 99%(?) Thai on Thai rather than a concerted plan to target foreigners. Their fellow Thais are a much easier ~ and compliant ~ target.
My dealings with the BiB are all quite passive: I'm often sitting in the passenger seat while my guy gets busted, again, for no good reason except their lunch money.

Stickman a homophobe? Could be ... don't know. The particular article mentioned in this thread is unrelated to his mental problems.

BTW, never had any problems at all with the cops in Thailand ... "[/quote]
I've never had any trouble with police in Thailand either. My landlady's husband is a Hua Hin cop and he's a very nice guy, rather quiet, but always ready to drop over to the condo with an electric drill or a new screen door. That was rather my point that the police corruption in Thailand is 99%(?) Thai on Thai rather than a concerted plan to target foreigners. Their fellow Thais are a much easier ~ and compliant ~ target.
My dealings with the BiB are all quite passive: I'm often sitting in the passenger seat while my guy gets busted, again, for no good reason except their lunch money.

Stickman a homophobe? Could be ... don't know. The particular article mentioned in this thread is unrelated to his mental problems.[/quote]

It's a pity Kevin Quill can't access and tell you all about Police corruption and falangs........

:cheers:

I don't think we need to have a convicted felon bitching about the cops here. As I've said time and time again, you get into the vice business, you swim at the bottom of the pond, you sooner or later get bitten. His case has nothing to do with the rest of us.