Heart-break in Bangkok

Yes finaly I get my heart broken in Thailand, and everyone will say I should've known better but who does.

I was staying in a different part of town than where I usually stay in Bangkok, quite close to the main tourist mecca's, anyway I went out for a stroll one evening and found myself in the thick of things in Soi Arab.

Very soon I found myself pressed up against a truck on the pavement by the seething crowds, the truck was selling what looked like lychees on steroids, rambutans and mangosteens, I had no where to go so decided to buy some.

As I was looking over the fruit I suddenly felt a soft warm little hand press into mine. It felt like the hand of a little child. When I looked down I saw a hairy little head and the the hand was reaching up to my arm, it was a little baby elephant asking for some fruit.

I must say It was quite a shock, and disgust and heart-ache very quickly followed. The baby elephant was tiny it couldn't have been much older than a year. The frightened and bullied little infant was being driven through the crowds by two youths with a sharp hook stopping for paid photo opportunities with tourists as they went.

Please do not ever pay people like this and let your anger be known. The middle of Bangkok is not the place for a baby elephant or any elephant for that matter, babies should be with their mothers and not paraded through crowds of tourists in the middle of the night.

I can only imagine it had been trucked in under cover and off loaded where ever tourists were plentiful, this is illegal and quite rightly so, so please do not patronise them in any form.

[Patexpat]

I agree with Cedric that it is cruel to use animals in this way. Elephants have been banned in Pattaya/Jomtien for some time .... and the police do seem to enforce this rule ... so imagine ...

Sitting on the balcony at Ozz bar having a quiet drink and chatting, when a baby elephant and mahout wanders down the soi blagging off of tourists. General observations were that 'haven't seen an elephant here for ages' 'on so cute' etc etc.

After a few minutes, the mahout and his baby elephant come back down the soi, at a brisk walking pace. A few quizical looks around the table.

Pause for a sip of G+T.

Next we are treated to the sight of the baby elephant running BACK down the soi (no mahout) with police pickup in hot pursuit, lights flashing and at the end of the soi performing a first class boxing-in maneuver after which the elephant was apprehended.

Just another night out in Jomtien .... :king:

[x in pattaya]

Practically speaking there's little you can do about individual cases, but you can support groups that do work to improve the lives of both elephants and their mahouts:

LAMPANG ELEPHANT CAMP (http://www.changthai.com/)


http://mahout.smugmug.com/photos/533112482_QZUvJ-S.jpg


http://mahout.smugmug.com/photos/594935896_jQioF-X2.jpg

Who knows? Maybe you can adopt a mahout.

http://mahout.smugmug.com/photos/585417870_Lg28P-M.jpg

Actually baby elephants are trained in Thailand using quite barbaric techniques that involve physical and mental torture like sleep deprivation, constant and severe beating, constant fear. Its a technique used to cause the total collapse of the little animals heart and soul so it has no other option but to surrender to the horrific onslaught. Even babies are treated to regular stabs with a spike, the same the boy has in his hand in the picture above.

Of course more friendly and loving techniques have never been tried and to change these traditional ideas is near impossible. I think people should be aware of this and the fact that it's illegal and not support elephants being used in this way at all.

I wont even go near those elephant parks where elephants are used to entertain tourists for rides or trecks. Due to the ban on logging in Thailand many have ended up there who would otherwise be neglected for lack of money. But they are far from a place of sanctuary despite what they seem, the elephants are routinely abused their whole lives. It is considered that if you stop the abuse the elephant will think you've lost and wreck havoc.

Only little solace and its not much given the long life of suffering these animals lead is that eventually quite a few mahouts do get their comeuppance when the elephants finaly snap and crush them or a tourist to death, unfortunately it's often not the same mahout that did all the hurt but it must be a blessed release.

[x in pattaya]

Actually when looking for the link I wanted I Googled "Lampang" and "Elephant," and didn't pay attention to where I ended up. I blame the shirtless mahout who distracted me.

I meant to connect the the foundation established by H.M the Queen and recognized by the WWF.

I agree that in almost any context in Thailand elephants are being at least misused if not abused, but simply turning your back on it all and refusing to engage those who do deal with the animals is not going to improve things. Education is needed and there needs to be an economic impetus to encourage people to change their ways.

This approach has worked in various places in Africa ... not without set backs ... with reasonable success. There's no magic wand that will make it all better, but steps in the right direction are possible.

ELEPHANT REINTRODUCTION FOUNDATION (http://www.elephantreintroduction.org/eng/about_en.html)


ELEPHANT NEWS (http://www.elephant-news.com/index.php?location=Lampang)


Shortly after the State Visit of H.M. Queen Elizabeth II and H.R.H. Prince Philip the Duke of Edinburgh to Thailand in 1996, H.M. Queen Sirikit announced her intention to initiate an elephant reintroduction project, to offer an alternative future for domestic elephants, one in which they will live out their remaining life in the forest, away from humans, as nature intended.

The reintroduction process started on 14th January 1997 when Her Majesty Queen Sirikit released the first three elephants - Bualoi, Boonmee and Malai. The second release of two elephants - Sangwan and Khamnoi, was made by Her Majesty on 10th February 1998. Then on 19th February 1999 Her Majesty also released Khammoon and Plaisong. In 2000, Her Majesty presided over the entry of a further 16 elephants into the release programme, and in 2001, H.M. Queen Margarethe and H.R.H. Prince Henrik of Denmark (President of WWF Denmark) released one additional elephant, Boonrawd.

On 13 May 2002, H.R.H Prince Philip granted an audience to the Thai Prime Minister H.E. Taksin Shinawatra, at Buckingham Palace. HRH discussed elephant conservation in Thailand with the Prime Minister, and praised the initiative of Her Majesty Queen Sirikit, in starting the reintroduction project. H.R.H Prince Philip wrote a letter to Queen Sirikit, offering WWFs support to establish the Elephant Reintroduction Foundation, and the Foundation was legally registered on August 9th 2002.

I must agree, parading elephants around Bangkok to the musings of tourists is, in fact, cruelty to animals. Mind you, these are not wild elephants. These are broken elephants.

And I am curious to ask dear Cedric:

What is the difference between broken elephants on Bangkok streets with skinny mahoots riding atop and broken ponies or horses on London or NYC streets? Is a poor broken horse with some 200 lb mountie bouncing on its back cruelty to animals, as well?

Don't you know, Pon, that so-called animal rights people care much more about cute animals -- like ellies and doggy woggies and catsy watsies -- than they do about run-of-the-mill animals like horses, pigs, cows, and rats.

I must agree, parading elephants around Bangkok to the musings of tourists is, in fact, cruelty to animals. Mind you, these are not wild elephants. These are broken elephants.

And I am curious to ask dear Cedric:

What is the difference between broken elephants on Bangkok streets with skinny mahoots riding atop and broken ponies or horses on London or NYC streets? Is a poor broken horse with some 200 lb mountie bouncing on its back cruelty to animals, as well?

Well you've asked the right person as I am a keen rider and am very fond of the horse. However I can't chat until tomorrow but suffice to say riding is not necessarily the problem, positive reinforcement is not breaking an animal etc

The programme to introduce work elephants into a safe free environment sounds very worthy indeed.

[Khor tose]

Don't you know, Pon, that so-called animal rights people care much more about cute animals -- like ellies and doggy woggies and catsy watsies -- than they do about run-of-the-mill animals like horses, pigs, cows, and rats.

As a lover of "foie gras" I sure wish they did not care so much about geese/ducks--which are hardly cute animals.

Of course more friendly and loving techniques have never been tried and to change these traditional ideas is near impossible.

As far as I am aware elephant training methods are similar worldwide - while not being that well informed on the subject I have seen elephant training in Chiang Mai and in Nepal (Chitwan) and the methods used appear very similar. I can recommend reading Queen of the Elephants by Mark Shand, about Parbati Barua, for an insight into elephant training.

I have a fair amount of horse riding experience, including 3 day eventing at Hickstead (and yes, I do know Douglas Bunn died last month), and I can assure you that the term breaking a horse is used for a reason. Desite that, Ponbkk,"the difference between broken elephants on Bangkok streets with skinny mahoots riding atop and broken ponies or horses on London or NYC streets" is that, at least in London, riding horses on public streets is strictly controlled and it generally costs their owners/riders a considerable amount of money for the privilege, while those taking elephants on the streets of Bangkok do so in order to make money, for no other reason.

On 13 May 2002, H.R.H Prince Philip granted an audience to the Thai Prime Minister H.E. Taksin Shinawatra, at Buckingham Palace. HRH discussed elephant conservation in Thailand with the Prime Minister,

I find it dificult to reconcile His Royal Lowness; a rancid, grizzled old parasite with the personality of a walnut, having any corncern at all for animal welfare - as in the 60 odd years since he was imported to the UK for the sole purpose of servicing the Queen, he has spent much of it attempting to shoot anything that moves. Anything that can't shoot back of course. His position as Head of the WWF (?) is surely some kind of sick joke.

:reindeer: :reindeer: <<<<<< Given the chance, the old C*nt would shoot those as well.

[Impulse]

Don't you know, Pon, that so-called animal rights people care much more about cute animals -- like ellies and doggy woggies and catsy watsies -- than they do about run-of-the-mill animals like horses, pigs, cows, and rats. So sad but true.Dogs and cats will bring tears to some eyes,but many other animals people just cant relate to so their abuse is ignored. PETA seems to run the gamut when it comes to protecting different groups of animals.They even are against the abuse of fish. Fish have feelings too.

Let's take it one step further: vegetables are living, breathing creatures, too! Let's stop the lettuce abuse!

[Impulse]

Thats such a lame argument.Veggies dont have feelings like animals. My friend would argue about saving the bacteria in the shower when I brought up animal abuse. :angryfire:

[x in pattaya]

Don't you know, Pon, that so-called animal rights people care much more about cute animals -- like ellies and doggy woggies and catsy watsies ...


And don't forget bunny wunnies.

http://mahout.smugmug.com/photos/585417870_Lg28P-M.jpg

Cute. And the elephant's quite nice too.

Of course more friendly and loving techniques have never been tried and to change these traditional ideas is near impossible.

As far as I am aware elephant training methods are similar worldwide -

I have a fair amount of horse riding experience...... and I can assure you that the term breaking a horse is used for a reason.

I can only imagine your experience of horse training was done in America today we do not "break a horse" we school it or train it, only American cowboys break a horse. Short of writing treatise on the schooling of horses I will say that no breaking is involved at all, never, ever, at not one single stage.

The horse has some very useful natural traits that we by positive reinforcement gently harness starting with the young foal. Force is an anathema to training so is fear and so is punishment. Now of course not everyone trains in this way and you do get ignorant people out there, but as you do correctly say no one has done anything other than brutalise elephants. This is because this is how it was done in the far East where elephants were first domesticated. Mostly these were wild caught BB elephants that had not been handled from birth, and yet even today with so many giving birth in captivity this practise is continued.

It is also of course totally unnecessary even for a wild bb elephant as a visit to the African elephant orphanage in Kenya for example will tell you. They respond to a gentle touch with intelligence feeling and delight, responding to reward and encouragement much like a child would even squealing in delight. However and without the need to for one moment anthropomorphise the elephant because their psychology is so very similar to our own, like all "children" they need a helping hand to know when they are doing something that isn't acceptable. Do we beat our children no, its not even legal in most Western countries.

Horse's in London or in any city for that matter are very well cared for, if they are not like in Cairo there is a public outcry and something is done about it and pressure is brought to try change the situation.

Horse's in London or in any city for that matter are very well cared for, if they are not like in Cairo there is a public outcry and something is done about it and pressure is brought to try change the situation

And there lies the crux of the matter, the primary reason for the difference in outlook between many in the West and many in the East: MONEY. Anyone who can afford to stable and ride a horse in London, whether it be on Rotten Row or on Hampstead Heath, has to have it (except for those in the King's Troop RHA, or the Mounted Branch of the Metropolian Police) to support what is, for them, no more than a pastime. They can afford, quite easily, to ensure that their animals are "very well cared for". The impoverished mahouts and their elephants, on the other hand, are not quite so fortunate - unable to earn sufficient to feed their elephants and themselves because of the urban spread and changes in logging practices their options are as limited as their finances; they are not enjoying a pastime, they are trying to survive. Does that make them all any more "brutal" than their Western animal handlers? I think not.


I can only imagine your experience of horse training was done in America today we do not "break a horse" we school it or train it, only American cowboys break a horse. Short of writing treatise on the schooling of horses I will say that no breaking is involved at all, never, ever, at not one single stage.

You imagine totally incorrectly. My equestrian experience was primarily in the UK. I have no idea who the "we" you refer to are, but the British Horse Society (the foremost, if not the only, authority on the subject in the UK) use the term for the first stage in training a horse. "Schooling" comes after the horse has been "broken" or, as some now prefer to call it on the basis that it sounds kinder, "gentled". If you are adamant that the BHS is wrong and you know better, I suggest that you take it up with them and tell them to re-write their treatises.


as you do correctly say no one has done anything other than brutalise elephants.

I never said anything of the sort - what I actually said was the reverse; you are unlikely to be told this at any "elephant orphanage", but if you were to visit anywhere where elephants were trained or to listen to or read anything by the acknowledged experts (such as Parbati Barua or her late father, the Prince of Gauripur) you would soon realise that the methods used to train elephants are very similar to those used for training horses - mostly good, some bad. Elephants are far more expensive, generally, to buy and to feed/stable/give veterinary care to than horses so the idea that their owners and trainers would deliberately take less care of them is based more on Western prejudice than any rationale.

The suggestion that elephants are all gentle, intelligent, respond like children, etc, unless they are brutalised when they may turn on their tormentors is, again, a very Western view; those living with or near them, for example in Bengal and Assam where wild elephants kill villagers every year not only when the bulls are in must but also when they are foraging for food, take a very different view.

There are obviously a few mahouts and some owners who mistreat elephants, just as there are some Westerners who mistreat horses - the idea that it is all done by "positive reinforcement" and that "no breaking is involved at all, never, ever" is living in dream land.

While you are busy writing up "Schooling With Cedric", explaining why the BHS is not only using the wrong terminology but the wrong schooling methods, maybe you could include a section explaining why nearly all those riding for pleasure or competition carry a horse whip, while none of the "cowboys" whose training methods you appear to disapprove of, be they Americans or Australian boundary riders, who ride for a living every day, feel any such need.

Maybe you could also explain why anyone would need to carry a horse whip for "positive reinforcement".

Maybe not.

I am not knocking conventional equestrian training methods per se, only your denial of them.

Your post mixes in far too many conflicting issues and ideas that don't make much sense all added up.

Just taking two briefly the first and last. The first along the lines of "because riders in London have financing makes Mahouts who don't less cruel", er no.

Many horses if not most in cities in the West are doing a job paid for by the state to do this job they aren't hobbies for the rich but whichever that's quite honestly immaterial and beside the point. I haven't looked into what they are feeding these elephants only how they are trained and what they are used for and how. But certainly if you have an elephant and you cannot afford to keep it or work it in a decent human way to pay for its upkeep then no absolutely no you shouldn't have one as simple as that. Exploiting baby elephants in cities like this is appalling.

The last issue of whips, and spurs I might add, is a good one. I have never advocated their general use as they are far too easily abused. However used properly they are in themselves fine and not in any way or form cruel. You as a rider should of course be already fully aware of that. A whip simply functions as an extension of the leg or hand and that's what they are meant to be, no more and certainly not used as punishment in any way.

A horses natural flight instinct makes anything even a piece of string or a light clapping sound something to move away from so using a dressage training aid like a lengthened whip to activate the hind quarters for example is perfectly acceptable in training as long as its no more than a tickle or for some horses merely a presence. For horses that do not respond you either up their energy intake or you find a more suitable thing for them to do in life assuming they are fit and well during assessment, you don't force the issue or ever need to inflict pain.

Nonetheless I think whips and spurs amongst other things are abused by some/many in every equestrian discipline and at every level of training and rider and I find that as appalling as I do the training methods for BB elephants.

This is about elephants however which are routinely abused in training and work and this is the accepted norm despite any isolated incidences to the contrary you might point to.

Abusing horses is not accepted as a norm not in training green horses or in general riding and where it is it should be rooted out and exposed too. Even the controversy of the tight nose-band an issue I personally have been involved with is a form of punishment and cruelty and will hopefully now not be the accepted norm in the future not in training or in competition.

Your post mixes in far too many conflicting issues and ideas that don't make much sense all added up.

Don't you just mean that you can't answer without admitting that you are wrong, and that "breaking" horses is the correct terminology and that your claim that "no breaking is involved at all, never, ever" was rubbish?


Just taking two briefly the first and last. The first along the lines of "because riders in London have financing makes Mahouts who don't less cruel", er no.

"er no", that was not my point. The point had nothing to do with making anyone any "less cruel", it was that one is enjoying a hobby they can easily afford, while the other is trying to survive.


Many horses if not most in cities in the West are doing a job paid for by the state to do this job they aren't hobbies for the rich but whichever that's quite honestly immaterial and beside the point.

Absulute rubbish. The Mounted Branch of the police in London have 120 horses, King's Troop around 30; I have ridden with both. They are very much in the minority in London (barely 1%). Again, you evidently have no idea what you are talking about.


But certainly if you have an elephant and you cannot afford to keep it or work it in a decent human way to pay for its upkeep then no absolutely no you shouldn't have one as simple as that.

"Simple"? What's "simple" about a mahout finding another job, or finding somewhere to "dump" his elephant? People like you never address any practicalities such as the survival of both mahout and elephant.


The last issue of whips, and spurs I might add, is a good one....However used properly they are in themselves fine and not in any way or form cruel. You as a rider should of course be already fully aware of that. A whip simply functions as an extension of the leg or hand ..... no more and certainly not used as punishment in any way ..... perfectly acceptable in training as long as its no more than a tickle.

Little is "cruel" when "used properly". If all they were used for was to "tickle" then they would be designed rather differently; I believe Ken Dodd used what you refer to.


This is about elephants however which are routinely abused in training and work and this is the accepted norm despite any isolated incidences to the contrary you might point to.

"Accepted" by whom?? Just where do you get your information from? Do you have any impartial, reliable authorities that back up anything you say? It is the sort of incident you describe which is unusual, not the other way round. Abuses happen, but that does not make them indicative of a general pattern. Assuming that elephants "are routinely abused in training and work and this is the accepted norm" on the basis of what you see at any elephant rescue centre or an isolated incident is the equivalent of assuming that all wives are brutally beaten by their husbands based on what you see at a hospice for battered wives.

Why single out elephant training in the East when cruel and abusive elephant training in the West, in circuses and parks, is widely reported by animal welfare groups to be far more prevalent?

[Brad the Impala]

Absulute rubbish. The Mounted Branch of the police in London have 120 horses, King's Troop around 30; I have ridden with both.

Been ridden by both more likely!

Again this post is full of conflicting ideas and far too long to address properly, maybe you should take one issue at a time? I will try and wade through.....


Don't you just mean that you can't answer without admitting that you are wrong, and that "breaking" horses is the correct terminology and that your claim that "no breaking is involved at all, never, ever" was rubbish?

No I don't and no Im not and no it's not.

If it helps you please tell me exactly where in the training of a young horse any kind of breaking is involved? Maybe I can and gladly for the sake of the horse put you onto the path to enlightenment.

Whether a horse has been "broken in" or not is simply a metaphor for "has it ever been ridden", and certainly not the literal meaning of broken not for decades and decades and decades has any form of cruelty been the norm or is the norm today.


The point had nothing to do with making anyone any "less cruel", it was that one is enjoying a hobby they can easily afford, while the other is trying to survive.

And your point is? I would say that these elephants and any babies should be confiscated and removed to a place of safety and they certainly shouldn't be breeding or sold to anyone irresponsible.



"Simple"? What's "simple" about a mahout finding another job, or finding somewhere to "dump" his elephant? People like you never address any practicalities such as the survival of both mahout and elephant.

Addressed that one already. The mahouts can get stuffed their cruelty should no longer be tolerated. Have you seen amongst other things the punch holes in forehead of an elephant made by the mahout with the back handle or pole of his spike, dug right through their skin after years of logging, it takes years for the bloody mess to heal and elephant to ever feel happy again.

In this instance however I think baby elephants are being sold or rented out to be used to make money in the middle of the cities by unscrupulous owners.

Besides all this logging was banned in Thailand 1989 these elephants have not stopped breeding so the problem never goes away. Most of these elephants have never seen a log in their lives, most of the old trained ones are used to give tourists rides, not paraded through the streets in the night begging. The ones you see are not ex-working elephants at all.



Little is "cruel" when "used properly". If all they were used for was to "tickle" then they would be designed rather differently; I believe Ken Dodd used what you refer to.

A dressage whip is designed to tickle with a small piece of tassel attached to it's tip, a crop is designed to make a light clap as the two pieces of broad leather clap together. Spurs are blunt, not meant for digging or jabbing but guiding with the foot horizontal to the horses side. Your point? My point. I still think spurs should be banned riders are just not uniformly good enough to use them and they are abused even in top level equestrian sports. I was appalled at the general state of horse welfare at the Equestrian Olympic games with doping almost a norm amongst other things.


Abuses happen, but that does not make them indicative of a general pattern.

Incorrect. It's considered the normal way of training elephants in South East Asia.


Why single out elephant training in the East when cruel and abusive elephant training in the West, in circuses and parks, is widely reported by animal welfare groups to be far more prevalent?

Im not I was talking about Thailand's elephants as the subject of this thread, but yes sadly the West took its training methods from the East initially. This is happily no longer the case in most zoos in the West. Yes there are isolated cases of cruelty reported. This does not make the general cruelty in the East any less of a problem, here it's the norm so is also not reported to anyone, but is being exposed.

I know elephants well having grown up with them literally in my back yard, I still have them in my back yard though sadly for not as long as I would like each year, but I can think like an elephant if I need to.

If you ever get the chance observe wild baby elephants taking lessons from their aunties or older sisters, you will see how its done.

Sorry to break the news to you, Cedric dear, but most of us have more important things on our minds than whether an animal is "happy" or not. You know...things that involve actual human beings and whether or not they are healthy and happy.

How unfortunate for you. Time to step out of the box and become aware of the fact that humans cause misery and not to only their own species.

Or is it a religeous thing? You think we aren't simply another animal co-inhabiting the globe but some divine creation? A virgin squirted us out on a bloody plate at the hand of god?

If that's the case sorry to be the one to have to break your confidence in superstition but you are just another animal not only that but you are related to the horse. :albino: And the bunny the rat and any other mammal out there the closest relative being the hairy chimp in West Africa.

So its kin bebe time to start caring.

I'm an atheist, but thanks for your concern.

And the needs of human beings precede those of lower animals...every time, without question.

Are you one of those PETA nuts who protested President Obama when he swatted that fly? Or maybe flies' "happiness" don't count because they're not warm and cuddly like ellies are?

I'm an atheist, but thanks for your concern.

How convieniant. That makes you Catholic or Jewish in my book, one who cant let go of his guilt, how sad for you.


And the needs of human beings precede those of lower animals...every time, without question.

Yes a closet nutjob. Darwin the great big fraud? Hmmm


Are you one of those PETA nuts who protested President Obama when he swatted that fly? Or maybe flies' "happiness" don't count because they're not warm and cuddly like ellies are?

Im not a member of PETA and nor am I afraid of them, I think they do a good job especially the more militant members. Institutionalised cruelty is the some of the worst kind.

Flies I trap if they're in my kitchen otherwise I don't think about them too much. Do they have feelings yes briefly before I swat them same for mosquitoes. Elephants don't carry diseases or spread them to me by sitting on my food or sucking my blood. And Im also not foolish enough to try and live in a swamp or encroach on elephant habitat to the point they have no choice but to flatten me and raid my food.

[Impulse]

I'm an atheist, but thanks for your concern.

And the needs of human beings precede those of lower animals...every time, without question.

Are you one of those PETA nuts who protested President Obama when he swatted that fly? Or maybe flies' "happiness" don't count because they're not warm and cuddly like ellies are? If your an atheist,then you would realise that humans are just a small sub group of beings that inhabit the earth. Elevating our status over other animals is a convenient way to lower theirs. Certainly we can do more to lessen the suffering of animals.Starting with changing the selfish atitude you are exhibiting Beach Bunny. You being a gay man should realise this. Cedric.If only there were more like you,the world would be a better place.

You being a gay man should realise this.

What does sucking cock have to do with animal rights?

I choose to spend what free time and money I have making the lives of people better.

If you think yours would be better spent on animals, well knock yourself out.

Thanks rocket.

Boygeenyarse we don't need your permission.

Helping animals is admirable of course. Helping both people and animals is just human. If you have a mental block for helping animals you have arrested development caused by a mother who preferred her poopsie little lap dog to you. If it's true your mother sounds very sensible to me.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3767732759_2342c735fd_o.jpg

[Brad the Impala]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3767732759_2342c735fd_o.jpg

I don't know why, but this tongue makes me think of The Colonel...........................

Grief Bradley you defiantly need closure.

Brad do you come from Southern Africa originally?

[Brad the Impala]

Is my accent that obvious?

[Khor tose]

Is my accent that obvious?

Hey Brad, if your aunt ran off and got married what would you call her? :scratch:

[Khor tose]

Institutionalised cruelty is the some of the worst kind.

Credric, first off let me say hello and welcome back. I am also an atheist, and I was not brought up in a Jewish or Catholic household. I kind of think both you and Bunny are both right. What you two are saying does not seem mutually contradictory to me. I too think the needs of humanity should come first, but I also think we are all connected in a closed ecological system it would be self-destructive of us not to insure that this system stay healthy. Yes, we are just another class of animals but our intelligence makes us the top predator on this earth and as the top predator we are in a special class. We need to harvest and manage the resources of this world and the other animals to insure both our survival and their survival since I think one depends on the other.
The only place I see a problem is the techniques we use in this management. Some cruelty seems necessary, since we have to kill to eat whether we do this directly or indirectly. I firmly agree that we should be as humane as possible in this management. The word humane means compassionate and it is an essential part of being human (thus the words root). Now here is where I find it gets really tricky. I too do not like to see bulls stabbed, and horses ridden to the ground, but what standard do we set for what constitutes cruelty. Your standard may not be mine and mine may be based on my centuries old culture and/or religion. Therefore, I think we need to be as careful setting rules for animal treatment, as we are for setting rules for religion. I am not about to tell the Spanish not to stab bulls, the Filipinos not to have cockfights and the French not to stuff geese/ducks. I may debate with them the merits of changing their ways, by appealing to their humanity, but I think to forbid these practices in their countries or engage in name-calling and finger pointing would be a type of intellectual arrogance, and would be very counter productive. Remember, these people are as humane as I am, or you are. If you can figure out where to draw a line, I would love to hear it, but for me I take a sort of live and let live attitude on judging others peopleтАЩs cultures and/or religious altitudes toward their treatment of animals.

Cedric, while I respect your motivation I cannot help but feel that your views are based as much on racism and prejudice as they are on misinformation and that you are, at best, being more than a little hypocritical.

To simplify things for you I have phrased my post in order of importance, "one issue at a time".

I think KT has summed up things quite well as far as our position in the "animal" pecking order goes, as we are evidently not " just another animal". To me the question of where we came from is a rather academic one since what is important is what we are now and the point that our "closest relative is the hairy chimp in West Africa[/color]" is no more important than our sharing 60% of our DNA with a banana.

You, though, have gone so far as to put the survival of individual humans, as a group, clearly well below that of other animals:

"The mahouts can get stuffedтАж.."тАж.."Im also not foolish enough to try and live in a swamp or encroach on elephant habitat to the point they have no choice but to flatten me and raid my food." It's not about being "foolish" - it's about basic survival. Unlike you and I the only "choice" the people concerned have is "to try and live in a swamp or encroach on elephant habitat" or die. You seem to prefer that they do the latter.

You denounce those in the East using animals to make a living, but at the same time you are quite happy to exploit animals purely for your own personal enjoyment as long as it conforms to your "western standards". At the same time as you condemn "the general cruelty in the East" you justify the use of whips and spurs on horses (and by yourself) and still deny that horse training involves "breaking". You think elephants should be able to "feel happy" rather than helping their human owner earn a living, but at the same time you are quite oblivious to whether a horse is "happy" being used by humans purely for their pleasure.

In the case of horse breaking, as I have said before, it is not me you need to convince that "we do not "break a horse" we school it or train it, only American cowboys break a horse", but the rest of the equestrian world who appear to disagree with you. The British Horse Society's authoritative book on the subject is entitled The Young Horse - Breaking and Training (http://www.britishhorse.com/acatalog/the_young_horse_breaking_and_training_revised_2310 .html).

As for whips and spurs, you are clearly deluding yourself and what you claim is simply neither correct nor credible.

While I grant you the dressage whip is "designed to tickle with a small piece of tassel attached to it's tip" the numbers able to use one (and Waterford spurs) correctly, and the number of horses adequately trained to respond, are minimal.

" a crop is designed to make a light clap as the a crop is designed to make a light clap as the two pieces of broad leather clap together clap together" Get real. The "two pieces of broad leather" are often no more than decoration and the last thing that happens when it is used, excessively or gently, is that it makes "a light clap". This is simply untrue and anyone wishing to can try it out for themselves. The only riding crop which it could be justifiable to carry is a hunting crop, designed to help in opening and closing gates.

" Spurs are blunt, not meant for digging or jabbing but guiding with the foot horizontal to the horses side." That would make them totally pointless (no pun intended). If the foot was "horizontal" (the correct term is parallel, the foot should never be horizontal) the spur would never touch the horse so they would only be decorative; they are blunt so that they do not puncture the horse. At least you have the good sense to condemn their general use.

"I can think like an elephant if I need to" - If you are being serious and that forms any part of your argument it is the most egotistical and most stupid thing I have read for a long time.

"Grief Bradley you defiantly need closure" well there at least, Cedric, I agree with you.

[Brad the Impala]

"Grief Bradley you defiantly need closure" well there at least, Cedric, I agree with you.

Please take me to the knackers yard before I have to skim another post as boring and pointless as the last one!

[Impulse]

We are at the top of the pecking order,true.I wouldnt expect a Lion to show mercy if they were at the top. But its not like were fighting for survival in the bush. Its the way we operate slaughter houses that is most troubling. For most humans,the most direct contact with another species is at meal time. Eating them is purely a means to our end. We regard their life and well being as subordinate to a taste for a particular dish. Just tp please our palate There can be no defence in eating flesh as a need to meet nutritional needs as its been proven beyond any doubt that we can reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products.

its been proven beyond any doubt that we can reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products.

Agreed - but we don't all have access to them (and, to be honest, we don't all like the taste either).

[Brad the Impala]

its been proven beyond any doubt that we can reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products.

Agreed - but we don't all have access to them (and, to be honest, we don't all like the taste either).

Of course you have access to them! Silly moo!

[Impulse]

its been proven beyond any doubt that we can reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products.

Agreed - but we don't all have access to them (and, to be honest, we don't all like the taste either). Maybe some poorer countries dont have access,but developed countries do. You dont like the taste,well,thats my point,your being selfish. I would love to see some aliens come to earth and eat you,then spit you out and say your too salty.After they have killed you in a painful manner. You would have no right to complain since they are more intelligent than you. Ok.at least all gay men can agree that the bird is our favorite animal!!!

So, rocket, can we presume you are a pure vegetarian? And, if we looked in your closet, we would find no leather shoes or belts?

[Khor tose]

There can be no defence in eating flesh as a need to meet nutritional needs as its been proven beyond any doubt that we can reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products.

Rocket, yes we can "reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products", and many people are vegetarians for just that reason, and for reasons of health (low fats). However, farmland is planted on grazing land and on land that used to contain forest with all of its wildlife. Indirectly, animals still die, if for no other reason then starvation. I will agree that you do have a strong argument, backed by science, for being a vegetarian, and you should use that argument to appeal to the Humanity of others. Heck, just the fact that you will likely live longer should be some kind of eye opener. However, it is still a matter of conscience whether or not they will heed your argument, and I think once the argument is made the person still has the right to eat what he chooses. Being a vegetarian is no ways give one a monopoly on being humane. Except for the mentally deranged, we are all functional human beings, and thus possess compassion, which makes us Humane. I don't know what your experience is, but I have never seen any prohibition that really works be it alcohol, drugs, prostitution, smoking, and I am positive, eating animal flesh. You cannot regulate morality, but you can educate, and educate (A good example of education working is smoking{we only have laws to protect smoke from non-smokers}). Thus you come to my main complaint about some vegetarians. It is okay to educate (even if to some it sounds like preaching), but it is not okay to start just another prohibition that is doomed to failure.

[Bob]

I would love to see some aliens

Probably can accommodate you if we had a meeting of board members.

[Impulse]

I dont eat meat,but do eat eggs ,dairy products :cheese: (mostly yogurt), and i do eat fish,mostly sokeye salmon. So technically Im not a true (pure) veegetarian since I eat fish. Even though Im not supporting the slaughter of cattle,I feel that its silly to think Im making much of a difference over all.That would take a drastic change of eating habits by almost everyone. Sort of like Americas efforts at slowing global warming.We can do the "Cap and trade " bill,which will attempt to slow carbon emmisions.Meanwhile China and India are going full throttle,burning coal and intensifying global warming,making our efforts a drop in the bucket.But who can blame them as its their time to prosper and improve their standard of living,just as the U.S has been doing for decades. So even if Im not making much of a difference I feel healthier. And there are some skeletons in my closet,but you wont find leather shoes or belts. But dont you want to know why gay men love birds so much?

[Impulse]

There can be no defence in eating flesh as a need to meet nutritional needs as its been proven beyond any doubt that we can reach our protein and nutritional needs from eating soy beans or products derived from soy beans and other high protein vegetable products.

Yes, we can and many people are vegetarians for just that reason, and for reasons of health (low fats). However, farm land is planted on grazing land and on land that used to contain forest with all of its wildlife. Indirectly, animals still die, if for no other reason then starvation. Yes your correct Khor tose.Also many small animals die from machines that harvest crops.My beef(pardon the pun),is with the way the animals are raised and slaughtered.Its hell on earth for these animals.To make tender veal,they take the calf away from its mother and dont allow any exercise.Some cattle are not killed right away while they are missing body parts.All this is hidden away from the public.And dont get me going how they kill chickens.What did they ever do to deserve their treatment. The only time any consideration is given and implemented,is when it doesnt cost the agrifarms money.

[Khor tose]

Sorry Rocket, I added a lot to my post while you were posting. Next time I will get all my thought in order, before I put anything on the board. I got three responses to my post and it has changed radically. Listen, what started this thread was Cedric saying institutional cruelty was the worst of all. On that I differ with you as it is often traditional. What is often happening lately, and what you are now addressing, is the commercialization of animal husbandry and on that I am in agreement as I think it is unhealthy and possibly dangerous. Where you and I may differ is that while I hate what I am seeing and hearing, I still need the science that says this may harm human beings, or be unnecessarily cruel (remember some of the things we do duplicate what often happens in nature), to join you in trying to stop some of these processes. I am talking about chickens that never reach the ground, cows fed steroids, calves that are not allowed to walk, etc.
Actually, science pretty much shot down feeding dairy cows steroids and almost no grocery chain will accept milk anymore with a trace of steroids. Accomplished by science and education as people stopped buying milk that had these drugs in them.

[Impulse]

Science is proving now that farmed salmon is possibly more harmful to consume than wild salmon.At least here in the U.S.,its getting harder for people to accept science with shows like Oprah,questioning the safety of vaccinations,when its been proven that they are safe and effective,witness the rise of whooping cough because people arnt getting vaccinated.Or evolution,under fire from creationist. it gets murky trying to use science to establish what is unnecessary cruelty. Its like the guy who said "i know porn when I see it". I donate to PETA and recieve mailings that I believe to be factual and authentic.There is plenty of abuse out there and they dont need to make things up.Too long to go into here,but like you expressed in a previous post, cock fighting and the slow murdering of bulls in other cultures should be recognised by their people as inhumane.I dont see where you need science to prove that applying razor blades to the feet of birds is cruel. Transporting cattle while depriving them of water since they are going to be killed anyway is cruel. If we have to show that these things are wrong by science they will never change.

On that last point I was horrified to see a large pink pig strapped to the back, the very back of small pick-up truck on the highway outside Bangkok somewhere. The heat was unbearable I had just stopped to get a fresh iced choco-drink from one of those highway coffee shops which are such a good idea when I saw the truck pull off from the petrol station.

The pig was enormous and was completely sun burnt, I mean blood red it looked too terrible for words like roasted alive. The pain must have been excruciating. Blisters had developed and its face was turning black purple. I felt sick to the stomach. The poor thing was barely able to look up through its long blonde eyelashes. It was at least 40%C in the sun and god knows how long it had travelled like this but it was at least two hours to Bangkok where it seemed to be heading.

Please take me to the knackers yard before I have to skim another post as boring and pointless as the last one!]

I have to agree. GoneFishing seems to have not only left the building but he's LightsOut as well.

I did however unfortunately feel that it was only polite to read his entire post. :clown: I did read enough to notice that it was one rather rambling obfuscation after the other. No where in his long post did he manage to address the issue.

So I will have to ask again.

GonePhishing please tell me where in the process of backing a young horse is "breaking" involved so that I can help you? I would hate to think that you ever got a young promising horse in your paws and set about ruining it and inflicting unnecessary pain.

Is my accent that obvious?

Bwa haha ha ha ha. No it's just you seem like such a nice guy. I met a South African at the rugby Sevens and we got on like a house on fire, think my having grown up in Kenya helped.

My uncle moved to Zululand in South Africa from Kenya after the trouble, think it was early seventies, took all his polo ponies with him on trucks the whole nine yards. Still got pictures my Dad gave me of the move. Incredible journey it was.

With my dads help they moved forty horses seven dogs an entire household and furniture him and his wife and three children plus a large pale blue Brahman bull who apparently slept most of the way only waking up to eat. They set off thus slowly across Africa. Everyone arrived in tip top shape. Not only that but he exercised the horses along the whole trip so they arrived off the trucks fit and ready to play.

Unfortunately his leg was partly blown off in the then Rhodesia when he was visiting my other uncle who had gone there at the same time that he left for South Africa. But he carried on riding and still is just managing to do so today.

[Khor tose]

Cedric and Rocket, I completely agree that the things you cite are horrible. I did not say Science alone can change things. I said science and education, but maybe I should have said science and/or education. Let me take one of the examples that Rocket provided. I would not try to ban cock fighting like we do in the USA. Roosters in the wild fight all the time(this is science). The big difference is they do not have razor blades attached to their feet, and the loser can escape. So you let people enjoy a cock fight, but you remove the razor blades and give the loser a chance to run away. So how do you get people to accept these modifications to their sport. The same way we got people to stop smoking. Keep showing and telling the public the results of the unnatural form of cock fighting while making the natural form available. I may be naive but I grew up with a large group of Filipinos and they are very good people, who when exposed to the truth and offered a more humane alternative would probably take that path. All we've done by making cock fighting illegal in the USA is to drive it underground and keep it bloody as hell. This is my complaint about many of the ways that America (including members PETA) deals with many of its problems/dislikes. We criminalize things that are truly a question of morality and choice, and by doing so we make them worse. We are going on 90 years now on our "war on drug" and I can almost see the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel" (my ass). We just don't need anymore laws criminalizing morality, but a vastly different approach to dealing with these problems.

[Smiles]

" ... On that last point I was horrified to see a large pink pig strapped to the back ... "
Only one?
Then you've best avert your eyes while traveling the highways & biways of Thailand. They pack 'em in there:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/sawatdeephotos/forum%20photos/IMG_0054_resize.jpg

GoneFishing seems to have not only left the building but he's LightsOut as well. ..... No where in his long post did he manage to address the issue. So I will have to ask again.

GonePhishing please tell me where in the process of backing a young horse is "breaking" involved so that I can help you? I would hate to think that you ever got a young promising horse in your paws and set about ruining it and inflicting unnecessary pain.

Which particular issue?

The one that you are a particularly unpleasant racist who puts animals above the people who use them in order to survive (who just happen to be from the East), but below those who use them for pleasure (who happen to be from the West):

"The mahouts can get stuffedтАж.."тАж.."Im also not foolish enough to try and live in a swamp or encroach on elephant habitat to the point they have no choice but to flatten me and raid my food."

Or the more recent one about the pig "barely able to look up through its long blonde eyelashes" as it was "at least 40%C in the sun" while you sipped your "fresh iced choco-drink". Presumably in your worldly travels you failed to notice that many people work in far worse conditions for far longer periods of time. On second thoughts you possibly did, but as they are predominantly brown or black they do not matter to you as much as the pig.

Or the one you perversely insist on repeating that proves beyond any possible doubt that you are a bullshitter par excellence and do not have the slightest clue what you are talking about, claiming that "we do not "break a horse" we school it or train it, only American cowboys break a horse", when the rest of the equestrian world disagrees with you as shown by every authoritative book on the subject ( as in the example (http://www.britishhorse.com/acatalog/the_young_horse_breaking_and_training_revised_2310 .html) I gave from the British Horse Society.)

No wonder you find Brad such good company.

And Kt, with all due respect to science and education (and to you!), I think your previous post on different cultures was more to the point. While there is no excuse for deliberate cruelty anywhere, particularly abusing animals for entertainment, it strikes me as totally unreasonable to expect anyone to treat animals better than they are able to treat themselves or their own children, which is what we in the West often not only expect but demand.

[x in pattaya]

Actually baby elephants are trained in Thailand using quite barbaric techniques that involve physical and mental torture like sleep deprivation, constant and severe beating, constant fear. Its a technique used to cause the total collapse of the little animals heart and soul so it has no other option but to surrender to the horrific onslaught.

Sort of pales in significance compared to ...

http://www.russiablog.org/canadian_seal_hunt.jpg

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:44_yFzCVsFOQXM:http://i402.photobucket.com

[Khor tose]

Actually baby elephants are trained in Thailand using quite barbaric techniques that involve physical and mental torture like sleep deprivation, constant and severe beating, constant fear. Its a technique used to cause the total collapse of the little animals heart and soul so it has no other option but to surrender to the horrific onslaught.

Sort of pales in significance compared to ...

http://www.russiablog.org/canadian_seal_hunt.jpg

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:44_yFzCVsFOQXM:http://i402.photobucket.com


Two thing significant about this: This is Canada a very Westernized, well educated people and education has worked in the sense that the EU boycotts the products of this hunt and Canadians are taking heat from all over the world, and there is now a large group inside of Canada opposed to this means of hunting. I give it one or two more years at the most.

[Impulse]

Agreed Khor tose,its all about education. If only people would listen.Some do,but it seems so many others are hostile towards the idea of animal rights let alone animal welfare. And PETA can turn off people with certain of their agenda. Giving animal rights activists a bad name. Like you said, you need to show them a benefeit they will get from a change in behavior. For instance,a veggie diet can make you healthier and lose weight.Cut the demand for meat products. Or somehow,shame the cock fighting fans that using razor blades is cheating and not macho. As far as horses go,i cant really see the cruelty in riding them,although Linda Blair(the Exhorsist) will disagree,the real cruelty is the way unneeded horses,or ones that can no longer race,are hauled down to Mexico and stabbed in a horrific manor by Mexicans.

[Smiles]

... Canadians are taking heat from all over the world, and there is now a large group inside of Canada opposed to this means of hunting. I give it one or two more years at the most ... "
I doubt it. The protests have been going on about this seal hunt for many decades now. Bridgitte Bardeau (sp?) I think was the first celebrity to wander out there onto the sea ice and throw herself bodily between a hunter and a baby seal. She was picked up gently and taken away in a swoon ... later entertaining a seemingly drug-addled press conference and flying off to Paris. After that there was a flurry of Hollywood shocked-&-appalled activity from the Usual Suspects which takes place like clockwork every third year or so.

The protests are all about the bloody pictures (and I agree, they are pretty grisly), and less about the seal hunt itself . . . i.e. if the hunters could figure out a way of euthanizing the poor cute little pups with a nice humane injection or an inhaler-with-mask which avoids spreading gallons of Very Red blood all over he Very White ice flows then the month-long hunt would invite hardly a whimper.
The protest groups within Canada are overall, rather impotent.

[Khor tose]

... Canadians are taking heat from all over the world, and there is now a large group inside of Canada opposed to this means of hunting. I give it one or two more years at the most ... "
The protests are all about the bloody pictures (and I agree, they are pretty grisly), and less about the seal hunt itself . . . i.e. if the hunters could figure out a way of euthanizing the poor cute little pups with a nice humane injection or an inhaler-with-mask which avoids spreading gallons of Very Red blood all over he Very White ice flows then the month-long hunt would invite hardly a whimper.
The protest groups within Canada are overall, rather impotent.

Sad to hear the local groups are impotent. It is not only the pictures with the red and white contrast, but the fact the little buggers look so damn cute. I do think you have hit the nail on the head(no pun intended). Okay the harvest has to take place, but let us find some way of making it just a little less bloody. Hello, I would help pay for the darts to kill them painlessly without the bloodshed myself, and I know hundreds of others would join in. Why is it the Canadian government has not taken steps to mitigate this issue. We are not talking about that much extra cost.

Okay the harvest has to take place

why does it have to take place?

[Khor tose]

[quote="Khor tose":htazmrm3] Okay the harvest has to take place

why does it have to take place?[/quote:htazmrm3]

Because we are harvesting so much fish that if we did not cull the herd, they would probably starve. Also, their fur and meat are both useful and valuable. I might mention that animals do overbreed. Right now in the US in New England, and Pennsylvania we are experiencing mass starvation of deer, and they are invading towns and cities and getting hit by cars. Also not a pretty site.

http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrob ... id%3A20009 (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=oid%3A20009)

[quote="Khor tose":dqsc5zaa] Okay the harvest has to take place

why does it have to take place?[/quote:dqsc5zaa]

One of those things like eating whales in Japan, maybe they also pass it off as scientific research, but I suspect is no more than grubby greed.

Rocket you make some very good points, I also don't think Cock fighting should be banned I enjoy it tremendously when I visit Bali in Indonesia, the whole colourful ceremony, music and electric excitement shouldn't be banned. I think some modification are in order, turn it into cock fencing with electronic devises.

Im not a fan of dog fighting. I have a dog a daughter of one of the best fighting dogs in China and as lovely and loving as she is she cant stop killing things. This is oK in self defence but she will literally hunt and kill snakes for fun. Just last week for example she took out two mature large adult king cobra who were about to dance under my bamboo grove. This is bad and quite rightly the conservation department gave me a stern warning as this means an entire generation of little ones that wont make it. I sent the snakes off for recording cause they were so large, you don't get them quite as big anymore.

Blood sports will always be with us, but for starters I think Boxing should be banned, send it underground let them kill each other off properly.

[quote="dave_syd":1co1esw0][quote="Khor tose":1co1esw0] Okay the harvest has to take place

why does it have to take place?[/quote:1co1esw0]

Because we are harvesting so much fish that if we did not cull the herd, they would probably starve. Also, their fur and meat are both useful and valuable. I might mention that animals do overbreed. Right now in the US in New England, and Pennsylvania we are experiencing mass starvation of deer, and they are invading towns and cities and getting hit by cars. Also not a pretty site.

http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrob ... id%3A20009 (http://www.pittsburghcitypaper.ws/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=oid%3A20009)[/quote:1co1esw0]

so the excuse for bashing fur seals to death with a club is to prevent the natural processes of population control from taking place? or is that really just an excuse, and its really for harvesting the 'useful and valuable' by-products?

I am sure the situation with the deer is bad, I think there are similar problems with bears wandering into populated areas looking for food too? but I dont see how that relates to the killing of the fur seals, and the manner in which they are killed, or the necessity for it to happen. are the fur seals wandering into towns and causing problems?

Grief Lightsout do you really think that's worthy of a response?

It's like a crocheted quilt made by a team of spastic Jack Russels at an AA meeting after the mod threw in a cat. Well meaning Im sure, but where do you start to try and make any sense? I am willing, but maybe when you're feeling a bit less under the weather. And aren't we all once in awhile. :drunken:

Im sure you're very nice actually, being ex-horsey an all, and times have changed, but yes you do know of course that nowhere does the BHS advocate cruelty during the backing of a young horses.

Maybe it would help if humans stopped trying to deplete the fish in the sea? Humans breed like flies. As for killing deer it's ridiculous unless they are being bred for it and eaten. I wonder why the leader of all ga ga leaders the ex-Alaskan governor Palin was actually shooting wolves, maybe that might have something to do with too many deer in town, or town was built on deer migration rout more likely?

In America they will actually develop in the heart of bear territory then scream foul when a bear wanders through town eating out of rubbish bins and mauling little old ladies, Cuckooooooooooooo!

Don't you know nuffink Mr Bear?

[x in pattaya]

...if the hunters could figure out a way of euthanizing the poor cute little pups .

Gee, putting an animal "to sleep" without battering it to death with a hooked pole ... golly there must be a way.

http://www.predatorconservation.com/images/darting1.jpg

Of course if the method gained in popularity it might overtake leaping from balconies as the cause of mysterious deaths in Pattaya.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3511/3214196624_f5f5cb484a.jpg

Gee, putting an animal "to sleep" without battering it to death with a hooked pole ... golly there must be a way.



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3402/3230658704_38528f9ff1_o.gif xactly. It's cheap mind.

so the excuse for bashing fur seals to death with a club is to prevent the natural processes of population control from taking place? or is that really just an excuse, and its really for harvesting the 'useful and valuable' by-products?

Since this year's cull killed a record low number (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/language/wordsinthenews/2009/06/090619_witn_canada_seals.shtml) of seals (one quarter of the quota) it looks as if the latter is the case and that the seal cull will die a natural death.

Dr (Cedric) Doolittle, the more you post on the subject the less practical experience of horses (and any other animal you name) you appear to have, from the subject of horse breaking (and tickling), to the first lesson basics of how to point your feet. Your equine knowledge is obviously limited to Muffin the Mule. Dream on.

Muffin the Mule? I pride myself that I can ride almost anything even a mule. My first horse was a wild grey Basuto pony my uncle brought me from Southern Africa, part TB part wild mountain pony. The stallion got out and mounted everything in sight and so he was born,a legend, nothing he couldn't do and in style.

Still waiting for the literal "breaking" when backing a horse for the first time. Seems you've run out of your so called "expertise" suddenly so can only resort to nonsense.

[giggsy]

Muffin the Mule? I pride myself that I can ride almost anything even a mule. My first horse was a wild grey Basuto pony my uncle brought me from Southern Africa, part TB part wild mountain pony. The stallion got out and mounted everything in sight and so he was born,a legend, nothing he couldn't do and in style.

Still waiting for the literal "breaking" when backing a horse for the first time. Seems you've run out of your so called "expertise" suddenly so can only resort to nonsense.

that blokes a nutter :geek: OI NUTTER WATCH THIS
[youtube:2mqgbgmq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmT2sJAWFSs[/youtube:2mqgbgmq]

[Bob]

Muffin the Mule? I pride myself that I can ride almost anything even a mule.

Don't mules sorta taste like chicken?

[Khor tose]

Muffin the Mule? I pride myself that I can ride almost anything even a mule.

Don't mules sorta taste like chicken?

Only if you can sneak up on them and hit them over the head. Otherwise, if startled, they produce a stinky hormone and they end up tasting like mule. :silent:

[Bob]

Only if you can sneak up on them and hit them over the head. Otherwise, if startled, they produce a stinky hormone and they end up tasting like mule. :silent:


He haw! Well, I guess that rules out the mule burger then. :kngt:

Still waiting for the literal "breaking" when backing a horse for the first time.

Why? I have given an authoritative reference for the term "breaking" (http://www.britishhorse.com/acatalog/the_young_horse_breaking_and_training_revised_2310 .html), which you have insisted was only used by American cowboys, a number of times; the term is in common usage throughout the equestrian world (except, apparently, chez Cedric). It all seems beyond you.

Still waiting for the literal "breaking" when backing a horse for the first time.

Why? I have given an authoritative reference for the term "breaking" (http://www.britishhorse.com/acatalog/the_young_horse_breaking_and_training_revised_2310 .html), which you have insisted was only used by American cowboys, a number of times; the term is in common usage throughout the equestrian world (except, apparently, chez Cedric). It all seems beyond you.

Jennifer Loriston-Clark? Are you insane? Someone from the continent would be more worthy of quotation. That's of course beside the point here, the term "breaking a horse" is still used even in her crap books to mean backing and nothing more.

While you on the other hand steadfastly hold onto a belief that a horse is literal "broken". Well one example please in the whole process, just one. Hardly a challenge or is it? Or are you simply a fraud speaking about issues you know nothing about.

A little something for lightsout's cross country ambitions, sure its going cheaply and what a tryer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8184637.stm

While you on the other hand steadfastly hold onto a belief that a horse is literal "broken". .....Or are you simply a fraud speaking about issues you know nothing about.

As I have had occasion to say to you aready in this thread "I never said anything of the sort ". Quote any statement I have made of such a "literal"... "belief" and I will withdraw and concede your superior knowledge (and in case you claim that I have amended my posts, note that whereas you have edited three of your posts in this thread alone, I have edited none). My point concerned terminology, as I clearly explained, which anyone with even a minimum knowledge of horses would be well aware of - you were not and you denied that the term was used by anyone except American cowboys. Absolute rubbish.

╪г╪н┘Т┘Е┘О┘В ╪о╪п╪з ╪н╪з┘Б

[Brad the Impala]

I have a fair amount of horse riding experience, including 3 day eventing at Hickstead (and yes, I do know Douglas Bunn died last month), and I can assure you that the term breaking a horse is used for a reason..

Speaks for itself I think! Clear implication behind this comment, Gone Missing!

Wots with the "tiny case" Cowboy, why do you love using so much it looks a bit silly and I notice you are particularly fond of it in your postings and then underlining it.

Seems to defeat the purpose somewhat, shrinking letters to make a bold point? Or am I missing something in italics here beside your logic?

Classic case of frustrated screamer me thinks.

Little tip if you want so much to be bold USE SOME COLOUR!perfect for a shrieking queen's purposes and it's at least noticeable.

[quote="Gone Fishing":2bxnurzh]
I have a fair amount of horse riding experience, including 3 day eventing at Hickstead (and yes, I do know Douglas Bunn died last month), and I can assure you that the term breaking a horse is used for a reason..

Speaks for itself I think! Clear implication behind this comment, Gone Missing![/quote:2bxnurzh]

Xactly. And all in the same sentence. Don't know about gone fishing but clearly busydefecating. Maybe he should edit more often, might make some sense.

You do know Crapalot that selling stale hot-dogs and warm coke is not the same thing as leaping into Bunns Leisure Brush don't you? Erm.... with or without a horse.

Hey, Cedric. Look what happened in Rayong today.

Sorry to ruin your good night's sleep for the next six months. LOL.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/08/10/p1news/images/30109468-01.jpg

Thanks for quoting Brad, Muffin - as he has nothing useful to say I ignore him, and after reading what he said you have confirmed I made the right decision.

If he did not read so selectively he may have noticed that you raised the subject of horse-breaking in response to a post from ponbkk, where you said "positive reinforcement is not breaking an animal etc" and I pointed out that "the term breaking a horse is used for a reason". You then replied, contrary to all accepted definitions and equestrian usage, that "today we do not "break a horse" we school it or train it, only American cowboys break a horse. Short of writing treatise on the schooling of horses I will say that no breaking is involved at all, never, ever, at not one single stage".

Your knowledge of horses is clearly as limited as your knowledge of other animals (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand/this-now-that-was-then-t18130-30.html), and on a par with Brad's - ie zero. As I said on the other thread, you are starting to sound like a total fraud. The recognized and commonly used term "breaking a horse" has nothing to do with "literally" breaking a horse any more than than an elephant is literally "broken" when trained - to do so would be totally counter-productive. It refers, as it has always done, to "breaking" a horse's (or any other animals') natural resistance to human control for human exploitation (either financial or simply for enjoyment). I am neither condemning nor condoning such practices, simply pointing out that to condemn one but not the other is totally hypocritical.


And the "tiny case", etc? You clearly are "missing something in italics here" as it is simply a result of underlining, italicising or using bold on this forum which affects everbody posting here (including even you).

This time, ╪г╪н┘Т┘Е┘О┘В ╪о╪п╪з ╪н╪з┘Б

[Brad the Impala]

The recognized and commonly used term "breaking a horse" has nothing to do with "literally" breaking a horse any more than than an elephant is literally "broken" when trained - to do so would be totally counter-productive. It refers, as it has always done, to "breaking" a horse's (or any other animals') natural resistance to human control for human exploitation (either financial or simply for enjoyment). I am neither condemning nor condoning such practices, simply pointing out that to condemn one but not the other is totally hypocritical.



It only took six pages and two weeks to finally get to your point!

[Bob]

Peter (or was that PETA?) picked a peck of pickled....

Oh, well. Time for a story:

A newspaper reporter was driving in a rural area when he went past a farmhouse that caught his attention. What caught his attention was what was in the front yard - a small pen occupied by a pig with a peg leg. Thinking this might be a good story for his paper, the reporter stopped at the farmhouse and began talking to the farmer - asking him to tell the story about the pig with the peg leg.

Farmer: Well, about 10 years ago, our house caught on fire in the middle of the night, and our pet pig saw it and squealed loudly to wake us all up, and saved all of our lives!

Reporter: Well that's nice, but what about the peg leg?

Farmer: Then about 5 years ago, my boy fell in the pond over there and was drowning. Our pet pig saw all of this, jumped out of his pen, dove into the pond and grabbed my boy by the shirt collar and dragged him to safety. He saved my boy's life!

Reporter: That's nice too but, if you don't mind, I asked about the peg leg! What about that?

Farmer: Well, good god, man, you just can't eat a good pig like that all at once!

[quote="Gone Fishing":3gad6mco]
The recognized and commonly used term "breaking a horse" has nothing to do with "literally" breaking a horse [/quote:3gad6mco]

Well done crapaloadashit. :cheers:

[quote="Gone Fishing":3hxnlc0e]
The recognized and commonly used term "breaking a horse" has nothing to do with "literally" breaking a horse

Well done crapaloadashit. :cheers:[/quote:3hxnlc0e]

Ceedy, a horse loses his freedom and becomes enslaved, no choice, "broken" just like the elephant. As you know, the methods used to break the horse are less "severe" (quoting Donald Rumselwft), but still it is the same thing and if we're going to end it for one shouldn't it just be for all? Who said that?

Hasn't this gone on just too long?

[Beachlover]

Hey, Cedric. Look what happened in Rayong today.

Sorry to ruin your good night's sleep for the next six months. LOL.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/08/10/p1news/images/30109468-01.jpg

Here's an article using that image. The elephant was alright after they dug it out... no injuries.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25 ... 01,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25912841-401,00.html)

The elephant was alright after they dug it out... no injuries.


Yeah, but was he happy?

What a brave elephant http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8195213.stm aren't they all.

Hey, Cedric. Look what happened in Rayong today.

Sorry to ruin your good night's sleep for the next six months. LOL.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/08/10/p1news/images/30109468-01.jpg

Looks like some queen Sunee Plaza had a mishap :colors: :colors: :colors:

a horse loses his freedom and becomes enslaved, no choice, "broken" just like the elephant. As you know, the methods used to break the horse are less "severe" (quoting Donald Rumselwft), but still it is the same thing and if we're going to end it for one shouldn't it just be for all? Who said that?


I think you're thinking of Alexandre Dumas who made up the phrase "one for all, and all for one" as a motto in his novel "The three musketeers" around 1840, implying undying loyalty.

Horses used for riding are a breed of domesticated animal they never existed in the wild they are a man made creation. Like the Chihuahua is to the wolf. The elephant of course is a wild animal, a product of natural evolution and not man. Every elephant calf born is a completely wild animal from start not a domestic creation.

Horses have been bred and selected for thousands of years to be fully capable mentally and physically for the function they will perform under a rider or in harness.

A horse is not "enslaved" to do so it would lose all natural expression and the willingness to work with the rider.

It's not a matter of degrees of "severity" between backing a young horse versus an elephant calf. No severe methods should be tolerated or are acceptable in the backing of a horse or it's training, if there are any then the person involved is not qualified and shouldn't be allowed near a horse.

Severity in training an elephant calf on the other hand is fully accepted in Asia as being the appropriate method and hasn't unfortunately evolved from that at all for centuries. This is wrong and what is worse totally unnecessary and as such should be fully discouraged when ever possible.

[Khor tose]

Where the heck is bunny when you really need him. Oh well, Cedric if you ever find any documentation for the above please post it and I will be glad to read it. Until then I don't believe any of the above rambling.

Where the heck is bunny when you really need him. Oh well, Cedric if you ever find any documentation for the above please post it and I will be glad to read it. Until then I don't believe any of the above rambling.

WTF are you and Bunny an item these days. That's sweet of him I was worried that you might be left on the shelf permanently. I believe in Thailand that's one mean feat.

I can only imagine he must be after your artificial hip there's a thriving second hand market in those. When he says open wide I would be very, very cautious if I were you.

Do your own research tart or put up or shut up.

Oh well, Cedric if you ever find any documentation for the above please post it and I will be glad to read it. Until then I don't believe any of the above rambling.

Eheu, litteras istas reperire non possum!!

[giggsy]

Canis meus id comedit ?

Or should it be :-

Eheu, litteras istas reperire non possum canis meus id comedit.

No doubt Romania will correct us.

[Khor tose]

[quote="Khor tose":1ykfcsl9]Oh well, Cedric if you ever find any documentation for the above please post it and I will be glad to read it. Until then I don't believe any of the above rambling.

Eheu, litteras istas reperire non possum!![/quote:1ykfcsl9]

Exigo ut EGO sententia. Unless you are really proficient in Latin you may not understand this, but you are both correct. Also, this is the best Latin my poor memory can do, let me know if you figure it out.

Yes finaly I get my heart broken in Thailand, and everyone will say I should've known better but who does.

I was staying in a different part of town than where I usually stay in Bangkok, quite close to the main tourist mecca's, anyway I went out for a stroll one evening and found myself in the thick of things in Soi Arab.

Very soon I found myself pressed up against a truck on the pavement by the seething crowds, the truck was selling what looked like lychees on steroids, rambutans and mangosteens, I had no where to go so decided to buy some.

As I was looking over the fruit I suddenly felt a soft warm little hand press into mine. It felt like the hand of a little child. When I looked down I saw a hairy little head and the the hand was reaching up to my arm, it was a little baby elephant asking for some fruit.

I must say It was quite a shock, and disgust and heart-ache very quickly followed. The baby elephant was tiny it couldn't have been much older than a year. The frightened and bullied little infant was being driven through the crowds by two youths with a sharp hook stopping for paid photo opportunities with tourists as they went.

Please do not ever pay people like this and let your anger be known. The middle of Bangkok is not the place for a baby elephant or any elephant for that matter, babies should be with their mothers and not paraded through crowds of tourists in the middle of the night.

I can only imagine it had been trucked in under cover and off loaded where ever tourists were plentiful, this is illegal and quite rightly so, so please do not patronise them in any form.

[bao-bao]

Ah, seven pages and almost a complete month since Cedric made the original post and we've come full circle as he re-posts the original from 18 July. Truly a fine example of an online train wreck! Congratulations, all! :cheers:
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z56/khunbaobao/1918trainwreck.jpg

...and it still sound a little creepy to ME to have a hand at the end of the baby elephant's trunk.

As I was looking over the fruit I suddenly felt a soft warm little hand press into mine. It felt like the hand of a little child. When I looked down I saw a hairy little head and the the hand was reaching up to my arm, it was a little baby elephant asking for some fruit.
However, for the record, Cedric: I don't like the idea of elephants being herded around on city streets, either.

The trolls seem to have moved away, maybe there 's a feeding frenzy elsewhere, they seem to get bored by their own behaviour eventually. :cheers:

A Bb elephants trunk is very much like a hand is to an infant human.