A farewell to charms

[a447]

I have usually found the guys I spend time with to be exceptionally charming and friendly.
However, please allow me to repost a part of another post of mine on the Pattaya Report thread, as I would like to know other people's experiences with boys they continuously spend time with. Is it just me? Do I have the tipping routine all wrong? Excuse me while I quote myself. :clown:


One is small (everywhere, unfortunately) but is a great bottom and impossibly cute. He is also extremely affectionate and likes to cuddle up (read: great actor). The other is also a great bottom as well as being well-endowered and insatiable. So I choose according to my mood. Now I have offed this cutie a number of times, both at night and in the afternoon. On the way back to my hotel we passed a cabaret show and I asked him if he wanted to go in. He nodded, so in we went. As soon as we sat down he said: "Look. My friend working over there." He called him over and they chatted. I tipped the friend (No, I don't know why). He cuddled up to me during the show , gazed into my eyes and was all touchy feely. Anyway, back in the room, AFTER the deed (and his performance was exceptional, as usual) he asked for more money. MUCH more. I said I would not pay and suddenly his mood changed dramatically. He went from affectionate to snarley in record time. He stormed out of the room without so much as a goodbye.
I think I know what happened. He might have made arrangements to go out later with his friend in the bar and needed extra cash. He tells me he sleeps until 3 every afternoon (not a bad life) so I suppose he goes out and enjopys himself with his money. Nothing wrong with that.
I have been very good to him over the past week or so. Whenever I have been in the bar, I have been the only customer. I have bought him drinks, tipped his friend who shares his room, as well as his friend in his bar and the one in the cabaret bar last night, bought him meals etc. Well, he has shot himself in the foot as I will not be seeing him again. His cash cow has moved on to other pastures.
The other guy also pissed me off a little last night when he came over and asked for 40 baht. "Why? You have made lots of tips tonight," I said. His reply? "No, not for me. For my friend. He want to eat."
I guess familiarity DOES indeed breed contempt.

Well, does it?

[MARK]

I have usually found the guys I spend time with to be exceptionally charming and friendly.
However, please allow me to repost a part of another post of mine on the Pattaya Report thread, as I would like to know other people's experiences with boys they continuously spend time with. Is it just me? Do I have the tipping routine all wrong? Excuse me while I quote myself. :clown:


One is small (everywhere, unfortunately) but is a great bottom and impossibly cute. He is also extremely affectionate and likes to cuddle up (read: great actor). The other is also a great bottom as well as being well-endowered and insatiable. So I choose according to my mood. Now I have offed this cutie a number of times, both at night and in the afternoon. On the way back to my hotel we passed a cabaret show and I asked him if he wanted to go in. He nodded, so in we went. As soon as we sat down he said: "Look. My friend working over there." He called him over and they chatted. I tipped the friend (No, I don't know why). He cuddled up to me during the show , gazed into my eyes and was all touchy feely. Anyway, back in the room, AFTER the deed (and his performance was exceptional, as usual) he asked for more money. MUCH more. I said I would not pay and suddenly his mood changed dramatically. He went from affectionate to snarley in record time. He stormed out of the room without so much as a goodbye.
I think I know what happened. He might have made arrangements to go out later with his friend in the bar and needed extra cash. He tells me he sleeps until 3 every afternoon (not a bad life) so I suppose he goes out and enjopys himself with his money. Nothing wrong with that.
I have been very good to him over the past week or so. Whenever I have been in the bar, I have been the only customer. I have bought him drinks, tipped his friend who shares his room, as well as his friend in his bar and the one in the cabaret bar last night, bought him meals etc. Well, he has shot himself in the foot as I will not be seeing him again. His cash cow has moved on to other pastures.
The other guy also pissed me off a little last night when he came over and asked for 40 baht. "Why? You have made lots of tips tonight," I said. His reply? "No, not for me. For my friend. He want to eat."
I guess familiarity DOES indeed breed contempt.

Well, does it?

YES

It always surprises me when people expect prostitutes to be anything other than mercenary in their pursuit of johns' money. Isn't that part of the equation, for the most part, the world over? I mean, the word hustler does have those connotations built-in...

[x in pattaya]

It always surprises me when people expect prostitutes to be anything other than mercenary in their pursuit of johns' money.


Quite happy to give any john that is remotely interested , a look at the covers of the gay videos he is selling.

The term "john" seems to be gaining popularity in troll parlance. Presumably it indicates an absorption of vocabulary from trashy novels and low budget movies?

[bing]

It all depends on the Thai guy. Some are what I describe and the 'Rolex' of the guy. I have known one young man, well he is 30 but seems as cute as when we met some 8 years ago. I know of his care for his family and his penchant for the newest phone on the market, but to date he has yet to ask for anything. I think I made it pretty clear I would not go on enless shopping days and have him drooling over gold items. On the other hand I do pass on enough baht that he would not well served to ask for more. Meeting new guys is a fun thing for sure, but when you find a good guy, be sure to let him know you enjoy his company, but also be sure you set up the rules of engagement. I'm having a very nice time in New York, but at the same time am yearning for Pattaya as I check out Sawatdee Forum.

[quote="Beach Bunny":3h5g3xfu]It always surprises me when people expect prostitutes to be anything other than mercenary in their pursuit of johns' money.


Quite happy to give any john that is remotely interested , a look at the covers of the gay videos he is selling.

The term "john" seems to be gaining popularity in troll parlance. Presumably it indicates an absorption of vocabulary from trashy novels and low budget movies?[/quote:3h5g3xfu]

Erm, it's a rather standard term for a prostitute's customer. What do you call them?

[a447]

It always surprises me when people expect prostitutes to be anything other than mercenary in their pursuit of johns' money. Isn't that part of the equation, for the most part, the world over? I mean, the word hustler does have those connotations built-in...

I certainly do not expect them to care in the least about me; as I have written before and as I wrote in the post in this thread, they are extremely good actors, and I'm fine with that. They are, afterall, hookers.
But it sometimes surprises me that they suddenly lack any subtlety about the whole thing after having played their role so well.
Perhaps being the proverbial butterfly is the way to go.

[Brad the Impala]

A447 does deserve a gold star for the title of this thread.

Most people will try to maximise earnings, however when a client has been quite generous over several meetings, then it is a bad move to aggressively demand more money.
A minority of people might pay more, but I feel most clients would go & find one of the other fish in the sea.

Most people will try to maximise earnings, however when a client has been quite generous over several meetings, then it is a bad move to aggressively demand more money.
A minority of people might pay more, but I feel most clients would go & find one of the other fish in the sea.

If they were smart enough to figure that out, they'd probably be smart enough to have a real job rather than selling their asses.

If they were smart enough to figure that out, they'd probably be smart enough to have a real job rather than selling their asses.
A gogo dancer who gets lots of offs should earn 25000+ per month, which compares favourably with 16000 a month for teachers. The dancer can earn that money from 18 years old, but you don't see many qualified teachers at 18 years old.
Some of those money boys are smart enough to be working their way through University & finding prostitution is the easiest way of making ends meet whilst getting an education.

I've never encountered aggression from Thai guests, so the ones stupid enough to behave in that way are probably a minority.

[Impulse]

Interesting post a447,I tried to reply to it in the other thread but my post never went thru :angryfire: Yes,familiarity does breed contempt. These guys will try to make the most money they can,and say just about anything they think you want to hear. I told one guy I didnt need him to escort me to the airport when I left,an old trick I just didnt want to play along with.If your only visiting might as well butterfly or as another poster said,"Fall in love with a boy,every night". It depends,if the sex is great,I might want to give into his request as the next one might not be as good,and if my time is limited I dont want to waste it trying out new guys. Like you said,I had one guy that was small in everyway but made up for it with his boy friend experience and all around cuteness.I took him to Montys caberet as I had promised Monty I would check it out. Anyway,he was not happy and I asked him why.He was upset I didnt buy a drink at his host bar.So we go to his bar after Montys and proceed to both get shit faced.I tore off his clothes and bear hugged him and then...... we fell asleep.He apologised in the morning and more than made up for it.He hinted a couple times about how his sister needed money,blah blah blah,I just ignored this and tipped him the going rate. Its hard to say no,and sometimes I dont and end up buying a cell phone or over tip. BUT,not all boys are the same.I had one who told me I tip him too much,and he was not planing on staying with me for long time.He seemed kinda new so maybe his friends taught him never to say that again. Im not so cynical to think that you cant turn these bar boys into a long term relationship,it can happen,just very rarely and it cant be a long distance relationship. Nothing wrong with being a butterfly,just learn to act your part and enjoy to the fullest.

[Alaan]

The thing I find so surprising with the attitude of the guys you were with a447..... is the fact that on my last visit i did take out two nights of my pattaya trip to visit the bars and gogos in Pattayaland area and Sunee/Day night area and virtually all the bars were so empty of customers.....

So you would expect any boy who was lucky enough to have multiple offs and a fair renumeration from a customer would try very hard to accomodate that customer.......and not be over demanding.....

Only thing i can think of here is that the boy already has one or more regular farangs as he is cute...and is simply used to getting his own way too often...maybe even has monthly support.... and feels he can afford to be demanding.... and if it doesn't work out as he wants he simply storms off... but i would think later he would definitely regret it....

The other likelyhood is that you were just unlucky with the guy you landed up with..... i dont think familiarity breeds comtempt with every Thai guy...... it is really just down to the attitude and disposition of the guy..... one thing I have gleaned over the years is they don't show contempt very often at all...it just seems not to be the 'Thai way' a basic politness and reverence to older family members and friends in the home seems to feed through to their manner as a matter of fact.....if there is contempt it doesn't seem to generally manifest itself in a lack of respect and politeness from the boys.... but again just my own opinion from my experiences.....and of course does depend on just how assertive you are with boys.....

I reckon on the same trip you could have easily met another boy in another bar who would be the complete opposite of the boy you experienced......

So in reply to the question does familiarity breed comtempt with bar boys...... again from my own experiences I would say in general ...no it doesn't..not in any obvious way anyway..........is it farewell to charm in the boy bars?..... again in general i would say that it isn't farewell...still plenty of charm going around..... i think mainly for the reason that for the boys who don't get offed regularly or the boys who work as waiters in the beer bars.... charm is the way to tips... Bt20/Bt50/bt100 the mainstay of many boys take home pay.

But if i was still in my offing prime i think i would react just as a447 did and move on to pastures new....... nowadays i just don't think i could be bothered putting up with sulkiness..hissy fits...and all the other dramatic crap i have witnessed over the years...... And i certainly wouldn't put it down to you a447 given that you treated the boys very fairly...more just 'luck of the draw'?

If they were smart enough to figure that out, they'd probably be smart enough to have a real job rather than selling their asses.
A gogo dancer who gets lots of offs should earn 25000+ per month, which compares favourably with 16000 a month for teachers.


A smart and ambitious person can make a lot more than 25,000 per month in Thailand, without selling his ass.

[quote="Beach Bunny":3qblh2r4]If they were smart enough to figure that out, they'd probably be smart enough to have a real job rather than selling their asses.
A gogo dancer who gets lots of offs should earn 25000+ per month, which compares favourably with 16000 a month for teachers.


A smart and ambitious person can make a lot more than 25,000 per month in Thailand, without selling his ass.[/quote:3qblh2r4]

And a Pick-Up truck........Is that true Smiles???????

[krobbie]

[quote="Beach Bunny":3flc89j5]If they were smart enough to figure that out, they'd probably be smart enough to have a real job rather than selling their asses.
A gogo dancer who gets lots of offs should earn 25000+ per month, which compares favourably with 16000 a month for teachers.


A smart and ambitious person can make a lot more than 25,000 per month in Thailand, without selling his ass.[/quote:3flc89j5]

And tell us pray tell how a Thai guy might achieve this, given that a job with the BIB is probably not everyone's cup of tea. I would say 25000 baht is way above the national average.

Of course it is way above national average, Einstein.

I'm talking about someone with above national average intelligence and above average ambition.

There are tons and tons of examples of Thai people from modest backgrounds pulling themselves into the middle and upper income brackets by sheer force of their intelligence and ambition -- and without selling their asses.

[a447]

I walked past the cute boy's bar on Wednesday night as I knew the mamasan would, as always, be waiting outside to drag customers in. When he saw me he ran over to me.
- Your boy inside now. He wait for you.
- I'm sorry but he is angry with me. He left my loom last night and did not even say goodbye. I can't have sex if the boy does not like me. I must find a new boy now. So sad for me.

With that I walked away, knowing that the mamasan would have a few unpleasant words with the guy. I wanted Mr cutie to think that I wanted to continue the relationship (hah!) but it was entirely his fault and he shot himself in the foot.

Sorry, I'm not a vindictive person, but.......


Only thing i can think of here is that the boy already has one or more regular farangs as he is cute...and is simply used to getting his own way too often...

Alaan, you hit the nail on the head. But I only ever saw a single customer in there once, so it is not as though he has lots of chances to get offed these days. All the bars I visited, with the exception of Krazy Dragon, were not exactly buzzing with activity. I think he is now regretting what he did and hopefully he will try harder in the future not to piss us off with demands for extra money.

[Impulse]

I know its probably irrelevant and none of my business. But,how much more did he want over what you gave him? Details,details,its alll in the details.

....A smart and ambitious person can make a lot more than 25,000 per month in Thailand, without selling his ass.

Ok Bunny, you're on!
Explain to me how that person can make it in Thailand without the PROPER CONNECTIONS.

The last "smart and ambitious" person that made it in Thailand was Thaksin, and look how he got slapped down!

I have a feeling that we "troll about" in different economic classes.

Do you want just one example? Here you go.

http://www.jobjob.co.th/en/Career_Devel ... m_Khun_Tan (http://www.jobjob.co.th/en/Career_Development/26/Leadership_tips_from_Khun_Tan)

From 700 baht per month, to being worth at least $500 million today. No ass selling. No fancy education. No connections.

There are hundreds of thousands of less extreme examples.

[a447]

rocket, he wanted double. The amount offered was more than generous IMHO.

Erm, it's a rather standard term for a prostitute's customer. What do you call them?Customer.

Erm, it's a rather standard term for a prostitute's customer. What do you call them?Customer.

Customer is a much broader term. "John" is far more specific. Of course...there are people who don't want to acknowledge the fact that their "boy" is a prostitute and that they are therefore a "john", so they naturally bristle at the term. Nevertheless, it is 100% accurate.

Customer is a much broader term. "John" is far more specific. Of course...there are people who don't want to acknowledge the fact that their "boy" is a prostitute and that they are therefore a "john", so they naturally bristle at the term. Nevertheless, it is 100% accurate.I guess if you are happy using slang terms then you can use it. I find it pejorative but I also think that the Thai boys I go with are prostitutes and I'm happy to call them prostitutes and myself a customer. I think the problem is more with Bugs Bunny who never misses a trick in his never-ending quest for moral superiority over posters here and others. Is there a single member of this Forum whom Bugs Bunny respects?

The term "john" is no more "pejorative" than "prostitute", as far as I know. Perhaps you just don't like to be called what you are, which is more your problem than mine.

as far as I knowThat says it all.

[Impulse]

I find it fascinating that so many people here judge Thai people by western standards and make no attempt to understand Thai's very weird psyche and thinking. The OP clearly didn't understand what really went down and nor have the others offering their explanations.

The boy's reaction is not becasue he's a money grabbing git (Which he probably is ;) ) but absolutely typical behaviour when you make a Thai loose face. Can imagine the scene: boy sweetly asks for more money in the normal "butter wouldn't melt" way, with accompanying touchy feely body language, OP replys with an assertive "No" of the "Non" type that a Frenchman would be proud of, and accompanying shocked rhetoric, facial expressions about how well the boys been treated, how dare he, whatever etc (we've all done it....). Boy has now lost face, knows attack is the best form of defence by making it all the OP's fault so boy explodes like a thermonuclear warhead and storms out. Now who's lost face?

If you speak Thai you'd understand it better. The word "no" is not really used in Thai, Thai's generally say "not yes", or cannot. A straight "No" would be seen as extremely rude! The OP acknowledges the boys are all good "actors", if you're going to play the game, you have to be one too (i.e be ready with some white lies). Don't say no, ask why they want it or what they are going to do to deserve it, say maybe tomorrow, use an excse about not having enough cash, etc, whatever, just decline in a roundabout way so no one looses face.

Politness, respect and never loosing your temper are very important in Thailand. Just because the boys are hard up for money and you are the only customer in a bar doesn't reduce in any way their right to be treated like a human being and have their culture respected. Jai yen yen Excellent post,Ill try to remember this as Im guilty of being abrupt at times.So Mai chai is a bad way of saying no in this case? I can see how he would feel he lost face after being told no.Also giving a couple hundred baht with an explanation would probably suffice.After all the work(acting?) he has done a little on our part would go a long way. Thanx crix4shan.

[Brad the Impala]

.So Mai chai is a bad way of saying no in this case? .

"Mai chai" is more like "not correct" and is often used in the context of correcting a statement of fact.

"Mai dai" would be more suitable as in "not able", in this case meaning unable to satisfy your request.

[a447]

cnx4shan, thanks for your post. It was an interesting read.
I was brought up in an Asian country - did most of my schooling there (in the local schools) , so I am well aware of the need to save face. Obviously, so are you. ( Funnily enough, I also developed that need, which can make it difficult to function properly in a Western country like Australia. )
But I would like to make the following explanations:


OP replys with an assertive "No"...........so boy explodes like a thermonuclear warhead

It wasn't quite like that. I wasn't really assertive. I am a "maybe" type of person, not a clear "yes" or "no." So I smiled sweetly and just said something like "Sorry, I can't do that." His first reaction was shock (that I hadn't been conned by his "affection"), followed by disappointment, followed by anger, as expressed on his face. He walked quickly out the door without giving me a second glance. He didn't slam the door.


Just because the boys are hard up for money and you are the only customer in a bar doesn't reduce in any way their right to be treated like a human being and have their culture respected.

I couldn't agree more. I treated him an a very "Asian" way (read: gentle), one he would be used to from a stranger in his own country I would have thought, (although perhaps not from a farang.)

[Khor tose]

CNX4SHAN thanks for the excellent post. I am just beginning to "get" the concept of face. My problem is many of the boys do speak a lot of English, and when I am talking to them it is all to easy to fall back into a more direct, less polite to Thai, Western mode of thinking and speaking. I am sure there are other members of the board, who do not speak and think in Thai, that may have a similar problem. What I am need is a list, similar to the Ten Commandments, that I can memorize and carry with me until I learn Thai well enough to be less Western in my dealings with Thais. Can someone on this board carve me such a list in stone? I think I now have number one.

1. Never say no to the boyтАЩs requests say maybe later or not able.
2. ?

[quiet1]

I think I now have number one.

1. Never say no to the boyтАЩs requests say maybe later or not able.
2. ?
2. "Yes" as the answer to a yes/no question probably doesn't mean what a Westerner thinks it does.

The most frequent explanation I've heard, is that it's more like a nodding "uh huh, I understood," but even that's often not correct. They'll say "yes" even when they haven't a clue what you've asked. It's more like "Yes, I heard you."

3. Don't attempt to express yourself in Thai until you know what the hell you're doing.

[quiet1]

3. Don't attempt to express yourself in Thai until you know what the hell you're doing.
Wise choice of words: "express yourself," since it includes not just speaking, it includes such things as wai-ing (sp?).

[Khor tose]

Thank you both for excellent answers. I've asked Jinks to make my question a seperate post titled, "Ten basic rules for communicating with Thais". I am afraid that other members will not revisit this post and I would really like to have these guidelines to go by, as this seems to be one area where common sense and just being yourself does not seem to apply.

I find it fascinating that so many people here judge Thai people by western standards and make no attempt to understand Thai's very weird psyche and thinking. The OP clearly didn't understand what really went down and nor have the others offering their explanations.

The boy's reaction is not becasue he's a money grabbing git (Which he probably is ;) ) but absolutely typical behaviour when you make a Thai loose face.

What a crock of bullshit. a447 did not behave badly to the young man by any reasonable standardтАж The boy is a prostitute who made a greedy grab for additional money, and a447 responded in a restrained but honest manner. Indeed, it was not a447 who caused a loss of face, but it was the boy who тАУ by making a selfish and unreasonable request - caused a447 to lose face. When it became apparent what he had done to a447, the boy obviously decided the best defense was to "go offense" and act as if a447 was at fault. Now enter the тАЬThai boysтАЩ shit donтАЩt stinkтАЭ apologists on this Board, who have been suckered into the boyтАЩs defensive ploy and predictably (and lamely) lay all fault with the farang, as if we should abdicate 40 -70 years of world-wide experience and wisdom in order to be better accepted by these prostitutes (as if thatтАЩs some sort of desirable virtue)тАж. Yes, be careful to observe Thai traditions and sensibilities, but there is no reason to throw out a weathered sense of right and wrong which frankly a greedy little whore - who is probably looking no further than having drinks with friends a few minutes later - cannot possible hope to comprehend. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but remember who you are. Do you think for a minute that an older Thai customer would have had a milder, more appeasing response to the boyтАЩs money grab than a447тАЩs response?

a447 does not need to change his approach to dealing with such situations at all, he just needs to find a boy whoтАЩs not such a jerk.

[PeterUK]

Yes, be careful to observe Thai traditions and sensibilities, but there is no reason to throw out a weathered sense of right and wrong which frankly a greedy little whore - who is probably looking no further than having drinks with friends a few minutes later - cannot possible hope to comprehend. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but remember who you are. Do you think for a minute that an older Thai customer would have had a milder, more appeasing response to the boyтАЩs money grab than a447тАЩs response?


Couldn't agree with you more. Well said.

[a447]

Do you think for a minute that an older Thai customer would have had a milder, more appeasing response to the boyтАЩs money grab than a447тАЩs response?

Well put, SF Farang. A Thai customer might have belted him around the ears!


Just illustrating how an understanding of the way Thai's think and respecting it will get you much further in this country.

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread, my background has given we a very good awareness of Asian sensibilities. Fear of a loss of face and of giving direct yes/know answers are not only Thai cultural traits.


3. Don't attempt to express yourself in Thai until you know what the hell you're doing.

Excellent advice, Beach Bunny. A little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing!

[a447]

.....who have enough money to frequent boy whores are not usually at the bottom of the social ladder; even the most stupid punk realizes that and behaves accordingly.

Does he only behave properly to older THAIS not "at the bottom of the social ladder", or also to farangs in a similar position? If "Thai boy whores" do not apply the Thai standard of behaviour to farangs, then why should farangs apply the Thai standard to them??

[PeterUK]

My guess is that if a Thai boy had the temerity to ask a Thai customer for extra money the Thai customer would more than likely ignore the remark completely and the quality of his silence would convince the boy not to pursue the matter any further. The OP, a447, seems to have told the boy politely that no extra money was available and if the boy then flounced out of the room that is a comment only on his own immature character. a447 certainly doesn't need to be told that he showed a lack of understanding of the Thai mentality; he handled the situation well and has also been sensible in not renewing the acquaintance of the boy.

[Brad the Impala]

and has also been sensible in not renewing the acquaintance of the boy.

A very delicate phrase in the context of the relationship!

Maybe not necessary to take a course in cross-cultural communication to resolve this issue. Maybe just treat the boy with the same amount of respect that he gives you, just as you would respond to the smile, or lack of, displayed by a vendor when buying something in a shop. The sex industry is ultimately a business, a commercial enterprise,though we tend to downplay that because of the emotional investment we sometimes make. If customer displays an ordinary level of politeness, he should not feel troubled by a vendor's outburst. Also, it might be good to keep in mind that some of these boys are quite good actors who can easily play whatever role they think is necessary in order to increase their fee.

[PeterUK]

and has also been sensible in not renewing the acquaintance of the boy.

A very delicate phrase in the context of the relationship!

Or quaint even...

[Brad the Impala]

and has also been sensible in not renewing the acquaintance of the boy.

A very delicate phrase in the context of the relationship!

Or quaint even...

Charming nonetheless.

[a447]

cnx4shan


Does he only behave properly to older THAIS not "at the bottom of the social ladder", or also to farangs in a similar position? If "Thai boy whores" do not apply the Thai standard of behaviour to farangs, then why should farangs apply the Thai standard to them??

Kindly reply to my question.

Thanks.

[x in pattaya]

IтАЩve only read through about half of the posts in this thread, so I wonтАЩt claim to be absorbing all the responses in my comment. I also broke off an incisor and went to the dentist who announced we would need to make a three-tooth bridge to replace said incisor at B 25,500. He shot me full of Novocain and then came at me with a pair of dental pliers employed to extract/excavate the root of the said incisor. I have since applied a Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon and a fair amount of Hennessy without mixers. Right now the world is a wonderful place, but I fear it may not always remain so.
Here goes. If you are inclined to think I am a pompous prick, do not read this. I will probably support your view.

Once again, here goes.
There seems to be an underlying assumption that тАЬthey allтАЭ do things in some sort of compliance with an innate predisposition to act in a certain way. And, the тАЬthey allтАЭ could refer to Asians, Thais, gogo boys or whoever.

Thai gogo boys are very likely to come from the lowest socio-economic element of the Thai population and there are undoubtedly some fairly pervasive commonalities, but they are nonetheless still individuals with unique sets of predisposing factors influencing their behavior in broad terms and their manner of interacting with farangs more specifically.

Prostitutes, whores, or whatever (denigrating) term you want to use, in Amsterdam, NY, Tokyo or Thailand are as different from one another as a middle-class resident of Long Island is from a bank manager in Nakhon Sawan. Most of the guys you find in Thai gogo bars started out as unsophisticated country bumpkins who, if they lasted very long, developed an unfortunate sophistication in accordance with how they were treated by the farang customers with whom theyтАЩve dealt.

IтАЩve had three long term companions over the years. I found each working in a bar. I know some people pride themselves on forming relationships with guys who supposedly never worked in bars, but letтАЩs face it, if you connected with a Thai guy in whatever circumstances, it wasnтАЩt due to Kismet. You found him because he was aiming to be found.

Some guys work in the bars to make short-term money and have no inclination to go beyond whatever each day brings them.

All my тАЬfriendsтАЭ initially had a rough, defensive veneer, developed to protect themselves, but they disliked the whole idea of working in a gogo bar and were looking for a permanent liaison that would remove them from that life.
The behavior of someone just out for a quick baht and someone looking for something longer lasting is not the same. The behavior of someone who has grown up in an impoverished loving family is different from someone who had limited parenting from missing or sick or drug-addicted or perpetually drunk parents. Someone who grew up in a small, closely knit village behaves differently from someone who grew up in a Bangkok shanty.

THEY do not all act in some monolithic way. Seemingly irrational, erratic, counter-productive behavior displayed by someone you have offтАЩd a few times is not some demonstration of a universal trait of all Thais.

The one thing I have found to be almost universally true is that the more often I interact with a particular Thai man (and that implies there is a degree of тАЬchemistryтАЭ between us), the more the defensive, guarded, totally self-centered, fabricated behavior disappears and the more rational, sincerely caring, accommodative, honest behavior emerges.

Until proven otherwise, any interaction you have with a Thai gogo boy is assumed by him to be of limited duration and something to be exploited to the maximum. ThatтАЩs really a very rational attitude on his part. You may think youтАЩre something special because he greets you with a big smile, remembering you from previous visits, but that still puts you in a not very exclusive group.

Yes, he may think fondly of you as someone who was generous and kind and fun to be with, but youтАЩre still first and foremost a source of income. Once again, thatтАЩs an exceedingly rational attitude on his part. To think of you or any customer in any romantic sense would be self-destructive and self-defeating.

My current (and I hope тАЬforeverтАЭ) friend has shed many defensive, self-protective layers over the years. But it took years and there will probably always be a slight feeling that something might jeopardize our relationship. I would like to say we are totally equal in our relationship, but we are not. I still hold the power to affect a more damaging veto to тАЬusтАЭ being тАЬusтАЭ than does he. His beauty and my financial support brought us together. Both are potentially wasting assets, but my money is probably going to last longer than his youthful beauty. Marriage, at least in some cultures, brings stickiness to a relationship that is absent here.

But we have come further along than might be expected for a fairly young Thai male and a somewhat less young farang, one of whom is (troll alert!!!) still the nicest, sexiest, sweetest person around and the other of whom means well.

I totally forget what it was that I set out to say, but I think I meant that Thais behave individually like everyone else. Boys who work in bars are good at making you feel loved and important, but you canтАЩt realistically expect them to see you as more than a possible quick source of money, even if you see them 3 or 4 times. If youтАЩre ever going to form a long term relationship that is based on something more than a squirt of cum and a couple thousand baht, ITтАЩS GOING TO TAKE YEARS, not a few overnight get-togethers revolving around an off fee paid to a bar.

Good night and sweet dreams. IтАЩm going to lie down now.

I know some people pride themselves on forming relationships with guys who supposedly never worked in bars, but letтАЩs face it, if you connected with a Thai guy in whatever circumstances, it wasnтАЩt due to Kismet. You found him because he was aiming to be found.



Not quite sure what you're trying to say here. I hope it's not that all Thai boys are looking for some financial advantage when they form a relationship with a foreigner.

That is simply not true. I have many Western friends who have Thai boyfriends that could buy and sell them many times over.

[x in pattaya]

[quote="x in pattaya":1bjimsgs]I know some people pride themselves on forming relationships with guys who supposedly never worked in bars, but letтАЩs face it, if you connected with a Thai guy in whatever circumstances, it wasnтАЩt due to Kismet. You found him because he was aiming to be found.



Not quite sure what you're trying to say here. I hope it's not that all Thai boys are looking for some financial advantage when they form a relationship with a foreigner.

That is simply not true. I have many Western friends who have Thai boyfriends that could buy and sell them many times over.[/quote:1bjimsgs]

Of course ... though I would be hesitant to endorse the word "many." I simply meant that there are Thais, for whatever reason, who are open to forming a relationship with a farang. Some might strike up a conversation in the "stacks" at a university library or during the break of a Bangkok Symphony Orchestra production or in a Silom cafe or by working briefly in a gogo bar, depending on what they feel is going to work for them and what their circumstances permit.

Someone who chooses to work a month or two as a gogo boy carries with him a certain stigma, but it is still an unfortunate means to a perceived happy end, and does not mean that the guy is necessarily a hardened, insensitive, gold-digging underworld character. My friend is an intelligent individual who now runs a business and has taught himself a great deal about computers in a short time. That potential was always there and our "relationship" has enabled him to exploit his own abilities. The only realistic road open to him was a gogo bar, but that doesn't mean he's somehow inferior to someone who was born with certain advantages.

His intelligence and common sense in developing a business are an important aspect in my appreciation of him. I was attracted to him because of his looks, but it's who he really is underneath that holds my attention. Thinking of him as a former gogo boy would be a real injustice.

I still think you're over-generalizing.

My own bf had never been with a farang before he met me, and was never particulalry interested in farang. It took me months of courting for his interest to be piqued (yes, 'piqued"...not "peaked").

Of course, there are tens of thousands of Thai boys who specifically seek out farangs -- either for financial reasons, or for the chance to live abroad, or simply for reasons of attraction. There are lots of exceptions, though.

[x in pattaya]

I still think you're over-generalizing.

My own bf had never been with a farang before he met me, and was never particulalry interested in farang. It took me months of courting for his interest to be piqued (yes, 'piqued"...not "peaked").

Of course, there are tens of thousands of Thai boys who specifically seek out farangs -- either for financial reasons, or for the chance to live abroad, or simply for reasons of attraction. There are lots of exceptions, though.


There are always exceptions to every generality, but I would still argue your circumstances are exceptional ... not that that makes them any less genuine. In some respects we all have to win over our mates no matter how advantageous and desirable we may find ourselves. :clown:

"tens of thousands" maybe in an historical view, but at any given moment in time, I imagine the number is considerably smaller.

I do understand the difference between peaked and piqued. Hopefully his/your interest won't peak even as your relationship enters its third decade.

I am truly sloshed on Novocain, Cabernet and Hennessy and thus must withdraw for the time being.

PS (you can never really shut a drunk up until he's unconscious)


I do understand that there is a difference between finding someone of your own age and with similar interests and compatible background, compared to ending up in a relationship of convenience with a young man who needs me to get ahead in the world. I would have preferred the former, which I assume more accurately describes your relationship, but circumstances prevented that from ever happening. What I have is not a match made in any normal world, but it works for us. Most of my life has been anything but normal, so why change now? If your relationship is truly as you describe it, my congratulations on achieving something few have.

X in Pattaya says, "Until proven otherwise, any interaction you have with a Thai gogo boy is assumed by him to be of limited duration and something to be exploited to the maximum".

This sentence should probably be nicely printed and attractively framed, then hung on the wall above your bed or placed on the nightstand next to your bed. That would help to avoid disappointments and misunderstandings. Of course it is possible that things could change and Boy X could turn out to be the one you've always been looking for. Choke Dee, Na.

[Brad the Impala]

IтАЩve had three long term companions over the years. I found each working in a bar. I know some people pride themselves on forming relationships with guys who supposedly never worked in bars, but letтАЩs face it, if you connected with a Thai guy in whatever circumstances, it wasnтАЩt due to Kismet. You found him because he was aiming to be found.



Was "Kismet" the name of Gaybutton's dating service?

Gaybutton's Escort Service? Rich.

[yedo111]

Why do you even discuss the behaviour of a moneyboy ???

If you want a boy you can trust and live longtime with try Chiang Mai and meet one of the village boys.

They will not ask for money every day.

Why do you even discuss the behaviour of a moneyboy ???

If you want a boy you can trust and live longtime with try Chiang Mai and meet one of the village boys.

They will not ask for money every day.

Just every other day?

[TrongpaiExpat]

If you want a boy you can trust and live longtime with try Chiang Mai and meet one of the village boys.


OK then.......................

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/landau_renegado/Village%20People/village_people.jpg

[a447]

X-in-Pattaya You make some excellent points. interesting reading!