another suicide?

[giggsy]

another suicide?

Admittedly I have no experience in this sort of thing, but is it possible to fire two shots into one's head? Surely the first shot would incapacitate one from firing a second?

I wouldn't rule out an assisted suicide staged to look like a suicide.

Assisted suicide is a very common occurrence in Thailand. The US autopsy of David Caradine named "assisted suicide" by homocide ....not simple suicide as the cause of death.

[francois]

Admittedly I have no experience in this sort of thing, but is it possible to fire two shots into one's head? Surely the first shot would incapacitate one from firing a second?

Well, there is a way to find out for sure. Any volunteers?

Surprisingly, gout can cause sufferers to contemplate suicide due to intense pain. NY Times 12 June 2009

[francois]

Assisted suicide is a very common occurrence in Thailand. The US autopsy of David Caradine named "assisted suicide" by homocide ....not simple suicide as the cause of death.

Can you provide a reliable reference? The reports of the US autopsy I read said his death was not a suicide.

Assisted suicide is a very common occurrence in Thailand. The US autopsy of David Caradine named "assisted suicide" by homocide ....not simple suicide as the cause of death.

Can you provide a reliable reference? The reports of the US autopsy I read said his death was not a suicide.

Ditto. But nothing that implied someone else was involved.

[cottmann]

Admittedly I have no experience in this sort of thing, but is it possible to fire two shots into one's head? Surely the first shot would incapacitate one from firing a second?

Apparently it depends on whether or not the first shot hit his brain.

A quick Google search using "suicide multiple gunshots" turned up enough reliable references (and Wikipedia) to suggest it is not impossible.

Assisted suicide is a very common occurrence in Thailand. The US autopsy of David Caradine named "assisted suicide" by homocide ....not simple suicide as the cause of death.

Can you provide a reliable reference? The reports of the US autopsy I read said his death was not a suicide.

Prehaps my humor failed.... The US autosy says his death was not a suicide...therefore 1+1=2...it was a homocide. Often in Thailand we jokingly refer to homocide that the Thai police are either trying to cover up or involved in as "assisted suicide."

I'll give you the English translation of the Thai article from above.

"He was shot in the head once by a 3rd party, who then put the gun in the German nationals hand, stuck it inside his mouth again, and pulled the trigger so there would be residue burns. The wife was doing a great acting job, as she and the 3rd party, were looking forward to a happy life together with all of their newly gained and solely named properties and insurance policies. She is planning to remarry another falang in the near future, and get into the same kind of living situation, but this time will try to extort only money from the next guy to avoid suspicion."

Oh yeah and I almost forgot, "The police called it a suicide as the 3rd party was most likely an officer himself at one point in time, and it also looks bad in the newspaper the number of "suicides like this there are on a monthly basis"

[The US autosy says his death was not a suicide...therefore 1+1=2...it was a homocide.

Hey, Sherlock...I think you forgot that 1+1 can also equal "accident". LOL.

And it's spelled "homicide"...unless he was a friend of Dorothy.

[Bob]

Shot himself through the mouth twice? Not likely.

And it surely wasn't a 38mm handgun (which, to my knowledge, doesn't exist). A 38mm bullet would be more than four times the width of the standard 9mm handgun many of the cops carry these days. Perhaps a .38 caliber (the bullet being about a third of an inch wide).

If it was a .38 caliber revolver, even Houdini couldn't have managed to shoot himself twice in the head with that!

Bob has spoken. A graduate of the Miramar Police Academy, no doubt.

If it was a .38 caliber revolver, even Houdini couldn't have managed to shoot himself twice in the head with that!

Only a shot in the cerebellum is instantaneous, anywhere else and you may very well be alive for a bit until you bleed out. Even a shotgun blast that obliterates the heart will leave someone alive for 40 seconds or so until the brain runs out of oxygen. Unpleasant stuff perhaps, but hunters and those that read firearms magazines know such things.

A .38 is a rather small round in the big scheme of things. It is generally considered a back-up gun.

are all these suicide victims drama queens?


A bottle of whiskey and a large bottle of sleeping pills would be a lot more peaceful .

[cottmann]

are all these suicide victims drama queens?


A bottle of whiskey and a large bottle of sleeping pills would be a lot more peaceful .

Irish or American whiskey? If American - Bourbon or rye?

But I agree with the sentiment - a lot more peaceful unless the combination causes you to vomit in your sleep and to choke to death.

[quiet1]

... unless the combination causes you to vomit in your sleep and to choke to death.
Supposedly, taking Tagamet or some similar anti-acid/anti-reflux OTC product suppresses the urge to vomit and keeps the stuff down. A friend of mine was obsessed with suicide trivia and shared that with me once.

[Beachlover]

are all these suicide victims drama queens?


A bottle of whiskey and a large bottle of sleeping pills would be a lot more peaceful .

Irish or American whiskey? If American - Bourbon or rye?

But I agree with the sentiment - a lot more peaceful unless the combination causes you to vomit in your sleep and to choke to death.

lol, I think if it was my last drink I would demand Johnie Walker Blue or something better.

This is terrible really... that so many people do themselves in such a beautiful country.

Suicide in Thailand is common, although its debatable if that was the case in this instance. Imagine someone coming over here, retired in many cases, settle down and make a life with someone they believe loves them, and have a very comfortable lifestyle due to the exchange rate.

The relationships end badly, people are scammed out of or spend all their money, or end up having to go back home despite wanting to stay. Its understandable why many people do this to themselves in this country, as there is so much to offer and be had here, many people would rather die then lose that. Sad but true, I hate to say. The more there is to be gained, there is just that much more to lose. Relationships seem to be the key reason in most instances, whether its Thais or falang that commit suicide. Love is painful sometimes, and some people just aren't strong enough to deal with the disappointment that potentially comes with it.

[Bob]

The relationships end badly, people are scammed out of or spend all their money, or end up having to go back home despite wanting to stay. Its understandable why many people do this to themselves in this country, as there is so much to offer and be had here, many people would rather die then lose that. Sad but true, I hate to say. The more there is to be gained, there is just that much more to lose. Relationships seem to be the key reason in most instances, whether its Thais or falang that commit suicide. Love is painful sometimes, and some people just aren't strong enough to deal with the disappointment that potentially comes with it.

Right or wrong, the only comment that I agree with is the comment that "some people just aren't strong enough...." Normal people (people without some pre-existing mental illness or impairment) simply don't kill themselves just because the girlfriend/boyfriend tells them to take a hike. While a failed relationship or money problems may trigger the event, I actually don't believe that event was the basic cause of the suicide.

There seems to be an unusually high incidence of suicide by foreign visitors/residents and, while I'm only speculating, it would seem to me that Thailand attracts a high percentage of people who have had serious issues (money problems, failed relationships, depression, or whatever) in their home countries. People tend to blame their environment for their problems and tend to think that moving to a new place will allow them to lose those problems. Unfortunately, the personal baggage follows with them.

..... Unpleasant stuff perhaps, but hunters and those that read firearms magazines know such things.

A .38 is a rather small round in the big scheme of things. It is generally considered a back-up gun.

What unadulterated, unmitigated, uninformed crap.

The vast majority of the world's military (including the US), police and anti-terrorist units carry .38 / 9mm sidearms as they offer the best combination of stopping power, accuracy, penetration, capacity and size. .44 / .45 / 11mm handguns are considerably heavier and bulkier and are consequently not only more awkward to carry but more difficult to aim naturally, have considerably more recoil and are consequently far less consistently accurate in rapid fire, have less capacity (less rounds in the magazine, usually 8 instead of 13), and are less accurate with less range for any given barrel length (the larger the calibre, the less twists/rifling). If you want more penetration / stopping power you simply change the load, depending on the pressure rating of the weapon, from standard to magnum / parabellum or to AP (known as "cop killers" in the States), although doing so increases the risk of "collateral damage" as many of these type of heavy / profiled bullets, even fired from a handgun, can easily penetrate walls with enough force left to kill / injure.

Calibre alone is little indication of overall effectiveness in any small arm. The weapon of choice for most anti-terrorist units has been the HK MP5 9mm for a long time and only snipers are equipped with anything of a larger calibre. When the British SA 80 / IW was developed it was originally chambered for a 4.85mm round, which was far more effective than the 5.56mm round now used, chosen only for commonality within NATO.

It would be as impractical to carry the best available ammunition (depleted uranium) in small arms as it would be to use the most effective small arms calibre (.50, as used in the best sniper rifles); it is a question of compromise and the best compromise available at the moment is 9mm.


The choice of a back-up weapon is based on totally different criteria, where concealability, accessibility and reliability are the overriding requirements and their sustained use in a fire fight is to be avoided. As they will most often be used at close-quarters accuracy and range can and often have to be sacrificed for size, particularly barrel length, and the choice of calibre is governed primarily by the weight and bulk of the weapon and where it will be carried. This has led to some rather unusual designs, such as the COP (Compact Off-duty Police), with no less than four individual barrels and firing systems to maximise reliability.

This not just "my opinion" which you or your informed acquaintances may disagree with - while it may differ from "those that read firearms magazines" who have never fired a shot in anger but are devoted readers of Soldier of Fortune, or the "hunters" whose experience is limited to shooting at animals that do not shoot back, it is without any doubt the view of the vast majority of those whose lives depend on it.



Only a shot in the cerebellum is instantaneous, anywhere else and you may very well be alive for a bit until you bleed out. Even a shotgun blast that obliterates the heart will leave someone alive for 40 seconds or so until the brain runs out of oxygen.

So what? Just because the brain is still functioning it seldom means that the body is or that it is capable of any physical reaction.

I was tempted to suggest that you restrict your posts to those subjects you know something about, but as that would seem to preclude you posting about anything at all it would be rather extreme (and just in case you have any doubt, while this was one of my "informative" posts, it was not one of my "light-hearted" ones.

[francois]

I spoke with a former coroner regarding multiple gunshots in suicide attempts. He said often the first shot is a trial to see if it "hurts". Also said, if a shot through the mouth, a wound in the tongue signifies someone else forced the gun into the mouth. If self-inflicted, the muzzle of the gun will be over the tongue and thus no tongue wound.

[kittyboy]

I was tempted to suggest that you restrict your posts to those subjects you know something about, but as that would seem to preclude you posting about anything at all it would be rather extreme (and just in case you have any doubt, while this was one of my "informative" posts, it was not one of my "light-hearted" ones.


Restricing you posts to those subjects that you know something about is a practice that you also might want to follow.

[Bob]

GF, your attempt to equate a .38 handgun with a 9mm handgun only indicates that your knowledge of handguns and ballistics would fit into a thimble (and you'd have enough room left over to park a motor home).

The average .38 handgun (the guns cops in the US used to carry all the time 20-30 years ago) will kill you just as dead as a 9mm handgun but has hardly the same stopping power. Almost all the cops have 9mm semi-autos now for both additional firepower (more bullets) and more stopping power. A 9mm bullet (width) is not too different from .45 caliber bullet - and US forces in WWII began to switch to the .45 caliber handgun as it (as opposed to an M-1 carbine or whatever) would in fact push back a soldier lunging at them with a fixed bayonet (i.e., more stopping power).

Sure, you could make a .38 bullet with a hot load (more accelerant) and a softer bullet that would flatten out and provide more stopping power - but the average 9mm bullet has a hell of a lot more lead and accelerant than the average .38 bullet.

So what? Just because the brain is still functioning it seldom means that the body is or that it is capable of any physical reaction.

I have no doubt that I've spent more time on shooting ranges, at IPSEC meets, and instructing concealed carry courses than you have. I've met and taken courses by most of the luminaries in competitive handgun shooting.

I'm not even going to read your posts anymore, you don't deserve the courtesy.

[Art]

A bottle of whiskey and a large bottle of sleeping pills would be a lot more peaceful .
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Gas_bottle.png/481px-Gas_bottle.png

Quidquid agis, prudenter agas et respice finem.



4kg gas cylinder filled with nitrogen

The Exit International euthanasia device was invented by Dr Philip Nitschke in 2008. It used an ordinary barbecue gas bottle filled with nitrogen,[4] a plastic suicide bag, and some plastic tubing with one end attached to the gas canister and the other fixed inside the bag by a tie held by adhesive tape.[5] In December 2008 Dr Nitschke released details of the euthanasia device to the media. His new device/method is a modification of the "Exit Bag plus helium" method described in The Peaceful Pill Handbook. Instead of using a pre-packaged disposable cylinder of helium, he suggested filling purchased empty LPG cylinders (rated at 3300 kPa) with compressed nitrogen and then regulating this with a jet assembly to give a flow of around 10 litres per minute into the standard plastic "Exit Bag". [...]

Nitschke called it "flawless" and "undetectable", saying the new process uses ordinary household products available from hardware stores.[7] Inhaling the pure nitrogen, patients lose consciousness immediately (in approximately 12 seconds)[8] and die a few minutes later.

Nitschke said: "So it's extremely quick and there are no drugs. Importantly this doesn't fail тАУ it's reliable, peaceful, available and with the additional benefit of undetectability."

The principle behind the effectiveness of the device is oxygen deprivation that leads to hypoxia, anoxia and death within minutes. Deprivation of oxygen in the presence of carbon dioxide creates panic and a sense of suffocation (the hypercapnic alarm response), and struggling even when unconscious, whereas anoxia in the presence of an inert gas, like nitrogen, helium or argon, does not. Nitrogen (N2) weighs 28 g/mol, the same as air, whereas carbon dioxide (CO2) weighs 44 g/mol, and will tend to fall out of the bag. [...]

Close contact with an enclosed inert gas is lethal because it flushes oxygen from the body, but released into the open air, it quickly disperses, and is safe for others. It is neither flammable nor explosive.[9] Close contact with the gas is achieved in Humphry's book by enclosing the head in a suicide bag тАФ a strong, clear plastic bag of dimensions 22 inches (560 mm) by 36 inches (910 mm), secured around the neck by a strap,[11] or by using a product available from the Canadian Right to Die Society called the "EXIT bag", which has a sewn-in Velcro collar and fastened-in, flexible plastic tubing. In all cases, the inert gas is fed into the bag by plastic tubing.

http://www.exitinternational.net/ http://www.righttodie.ca/

Version 1.1
People seeking assistance in their suicide made three consecutive requests to relatives for help.[44] Family members would attempt to dissuade the individual at each suggestion, but with the third request by a person, assistance became obligatory.[44] In some cases, a suicide was a publicly acknowledged and attended event.[44] Once the suicide had been agreed to, the victim would dress him or herself as the dead are clothed, with clothing turned inside out.[44] The death occurred at a specific place, where the material possessions of deceased people were brought to be destroyed.[44]

....There seems to be an unusually high incidence of suicide by foreign visitors/residents ...

Now that begs the question...just what is the suicide rate for foreigners in Thailand and how does that compare to the West?
It seems the Thai press is very big on the "if it bleeds it leads" school of journalism. Are we just seeing a lot of suicide reporting and interpreting it as a higher rate?
I live in a major US city and the only time I read about suicide is if someone jumps in front of the train or the more spectacular murder/suicide where someone offs his whole family. I know there must be more going on but I guess the press here is just too boring?

Anybody know where to find real data?

[Bob]

Now that begs the question...just what is the suicide rate for foreigners in Thailand and how does that compare to the West?


Good question. Wikopedia (hardly an authoritative source) actually lists that the US has 11.1 suicides per 100,000 people whereas Thailand's rate is 7.8 suicides per 100,000 people. But whether the reported figures for Thailand are accurate or if those figures include falang suicides is unknown.

I said "seems" because I see more newspaper articles about the "spectacular" suicides (the jumping from the condo routines, for example) in the Thai papers than I do in the US papers. The US papers generally do not report the quiet/private suicides (unless it involves a notorious or famous person) and almost never mention suicide as a cause of death in obituaries. Yet, it's at least my perception that our papers do report the "spectacular" suicides and I see a heck of a lot less of those reported here in the states than I do in the Pattaya Mail. So, while it's pure speculation on my part, it's my guess that there is a higher incidence of expat suicide in Thailand than either the native (Thai) suicide rate or the suicide rate in the expat's home country. But I'd also guess that there's higher than normal incidence of alcoholism, depression, and other issues in the expat community here in Thailand.

GF, your attempt to equate a .38 handgun with a 9mm handgun only indicates that your knowledge of handguns and ballistics would fit into a thimble (and you'd have enough room left over to park a motor home).

..... A 9mm bullet (width) is not too different from .45 caliber bullet - and US forces in WWII began to switch to the .45 caliber handgun as it (as opposed to an M-1 carbine or whatever) would in fact push back a soldier lunging at them with a fixed bayonet (i.e., more stopping power).

Sure, you could make a .38 bullet with a hot load (more accelerant) and a softer bullet that would flatten out and provide more stopping power - but the average 9mm bullet has a hell of a lot more lead and accelerant than the average .38 bullet.


I have no doubt that I've spent more time on shooting ranges, at IPSEC meets, and instructing concealed carry courses than you have. I've met and taken courses by most of the luminaries in competitive handgun shooting.

I'm not even going to read your posts anymore, you don't deserve the courtesy.

Amazing ... truly amazing.

While it has little of relevance to this forum it does, however, demonstrate just how much utter crap some people post while deluding themselves about their own knowledge and decrying that of others. In the unlikely event that anyone apart from these two Soldier of Fortune wannabees is interested in seeing who has more "knowledge of handguns and ballistics", and who simply posts crap, read on .....

As I have said before, I seldom post on subjects I do not know much about and this is not one of those occasions. It happens to be an area in which I have a considerable amount of practical expertise, in which I have received a considerable amount of training, and in which I have in turn trained many national and international police and military units; before either of you are tempted to comment on those units, I would point out that they include your own Delta Force and your Navy SEALS. I readily admit to being out of date, as I retired some 15 years ago, however there have been few advances in the field of handguns, handgun ammunition and combat handgun use in that time that I am not aware of (even though, now, it is of little interest to me) - and prior to retiring I had trained troops in or served operationally (or both) in every continent in the world.

Bob, to deal with your points first, as you are more specific and it would be easier for anyone to check them:

"your attempt to equate a .38 handgun with a 9mm handgun .....A 9mm bullet (width) is not too different from .45 caliber bullet .....the average 9mm bullet has a hell of a lot more lead and accelerant than the average .38 bullet."

The actual groove sizes (slightly larger than bore sizes, so that the bullet gets spun by the grooves rather than simply goes down the barrel without spinning) of the rounds in question are as follows:

9mm parabellum: 9.02mm / .355"
.38 special: 9.09mm / .3575"
.357 magnum: 9.09mm / .3575"
.45: 11.48mm / .451"
11mm: 11.48mm / .451" (The term "11mm" is used in many countries (including Thailand) to refer to .45 calibre.)

Evidently a "9mm bullet (width) is" very "different from .45 caliber bullet" - it is, in fact, marginally smaller than a .38 or a .357. The .357 bullet has an identical calibre to the .38, but the casing of the round is тЕЫ" longer to avoid confusing the two, as a .357 magnum round produces twice the pressure of a .38 special and could easily make the weapon burst (a .38 round can be chambered and fired from a .357, if necessary, although it would lead to jams, but not vice-versa).

The two calibres, 9mm and .38, are virtually identical, although the rounds are not.

I find it hard to believe that anyone with even a minimum of firearms or military knowledge would imagine that "US forces in WWII began to switch to the .45 caliber handgun ..... (as opposed to an M-1 carbine or whatever) .....". The Colt M 1911 .45 was the standard US military sidearm from 1911 to 1985 (hence the name!) so by the time of WWII it had been in use by them for nearly 30 years; it was not a replacement for "an M-1 carbine or whatever", which was the standard US rifle at the time, but was issued then as it is now to those for whom a rifle would be an inconvenience, from dog handlers to the general staff, and to some Special Forces as a back-up weapon.

Indeed you could "make a .38 bullet with a hot load (more accelerant) and a softer bullet that would flatten out and provide more stopping power..." but what would be the point? A softer bullet has less penetration. The "hot load" .38 has been around for a long time - it is called a .357 (see my point on calibres above); as this is primarily a gay forum, not one for gun nuts, I did not see any point in going into such detail in my original post. A simple but boring chart showing the comparative "lead and accelerant" of 9mm, .38 and .357 rounds is shown at the bottom of this post, demonstrating just how incorrect you are.

mlomker, the futures trader turned part-time firearms instructor who has as usual made a totally erroneous assumption, now its your turn. I have no idea how much time you have spent "on shooting ranges.....and instructing concealed carry courses .....etc, etc", nor even how much time I have spent similarly. Unless those you have been "instructing" have been military, police, special forces or anti-terrorist units with whom you have served operationally (rather than fellow Walter Mittys "at IPSEC meets" or a bunch of housewives, etc), which was the primary part of my profession, then your experience is as worthless here as it is to those whom you are teaching. "Competitive handgun shooting" is for those who want to compete and to play in a "cowboys and indians world" where the targets cannot shoot back - a world in which neither I nor anyone I know have ever had any interest or taken any part in, and one which is totally meaningless to those who depend on their weapons and their weapon handling skills for their lives.


Should anyone wish to question my credentials I have no intention whatsoever of posting them here but I am perfectly willing to give all my personal details to those few posters whom I believe would be willing and able to maintain my privacy and who could visit me, if they so wished, in order to verify them and who could give a simple "yes or no" confirmation to any of the doubters worth responding to. Sorry to put you on the spot, and feel free to refuse, but the likes of Dodger, Smiles and Khor Tose all spring to mind as being posters with whom I have crossed swords on more than one occasion but whom (rightly or wrongly!) I see as being "honourable men" whose word can be trusted (although not all might agree!). Sorry, Pissyboy and Lonely Wombat, you'll just have to go on frustrated (although, Pissyboy, at least you now know part of what my profession was!)




.
9mm / 38 / .357 comparative "lead and accelerant" figures (sorry, for anyone bored enough to have got this far, but I cannot display this as a proper chart for some reason)

Calibre ------- Weight ------- Velocity ------- Energy

---------- grains - grams -- ft/sec - m/sec -- lb/ft - joules


.38 special

110 - 7.1 -- 980 - 300 -- 235 - 319

130 - 8.4 -- 810 - 250 -- 189 - 256

148 - 9.6 -- 690 - 210 -- 156 - 212

158 - 10.2 -- 770 - 230 -- 208 - 282


.357 magnum

125 - 8.1 -- 1,600 - 490 -- 710 - 960

130 - 8.4 -- 1,410 - 430 -- 574 - 778

158 - 10.2 -- 1,240 - 380 -- 539 - 771

180 - 12 -- 1,060 - 320 -- 449 - 609

200 - 13 -- 1,200 - 370 -- 640 - 870


9mm parabellum

115 - 7.45 -- 1,300 - 390 -- 420 - 570

123 - 8.0 -- 1,200 - 360 -- 382 - 518

140 - 9.1 -- 1,000 - 305 -- 309 - 419

147 - 9.5 -- 1,210 368 -- 474 - 643

The actual groove sizes (slightly larger than bore sizes, so that the bullet gets spun by the grooves rather than simply goes down the barrel without spinning) of the rounds in question ...

The technical term you are groping for is "Rifling" ... and then you need to detail "Lands" and "Grooves" and "Twist Rate".

Why have none of you 'Experts' mentioned the most effective suicide firearm ... 12 bore shotgun?

The technical term you are groping for is "Rifling" ......

I was trying not to be too technical, Rs, but I did mention "rifling" in my previous post.

Sorry, but I have no personal experience of suicide - maybe Col Callan and John J Rambo could help you out there - they have probably both tried a play station version .....

[francois]

Gone Fishing's post on hand guns is right on target! Having owned/fired handguns in .22 lr, .38, .357, .45, I can say his facts are correct. As far as suicide, the .357 magnum would be the weapon of choice; no second shot required!!

... maybe Col Callan and John J Rambo could help you out there - they have probably both tried a play station version .....

Unlikely ... and neither can you ... since my experience was only 'professional'.

[Bob]

GF was correct on the diameter of the two bullets - 9mm versus a .38 - and I was wrong (shouldn't have been, I know better) there; other than that - and while this topic is rather off the wall in the first place - anybody that would suggest that a .38 has anywhere near the stopping power of a 9mm or .357 is simply off the wall. If you shot those guns, you'd know it immediately.

And, yes, you can shoot a .38 caliber bullet through a .357 chambered handgun (and you can also shoot what's called a light load or wadcutter). The .38 goes "pop" whereas the .357 goes "boom" (I'm using those terms for those who have no familiarity with shooting those guns).

Back to one of the original topic, I still contend that if it was a .38 revolver used in fatal act, there is just no damn way somebody could shoot themselves through the mouth twice (presuming the gun was pointed toward the back of the throat, toward the top of his head, or towards his neck). The gun has enough kickback (especially with your forearm bent toward your mouth) to dislodge the gun from the mouth after the first shot and, additionally, the trauma (with the .38 likely exiting the skull) would prevent any second shot (a .38 is not a semi-auto and does not have anything near a hair trigger). The story sounds like another one of those stories like: "But, your Honor, I was just peeling an orange on the corner when the man backed around the corner into my knife 6 times....."

[francois]

I searched the original article in Pattaya Daily News, 17 June, and mention was made of only one gunshot to the head.

I searched the original article in Pattaya Daily News, 17 June, and mention was made of only one gunshot to the head.

A cover-up, obviously. No foreigner ever kills themselves in Thailand. It is always a murder conspiracy / cover-up by the little brown smiling people, as every FOQ knows too well.

GF was correct on the diameter of the two bullets - 9mm versus a .38 - and I was wrong (shouldn't have been, I know better) there; other than that - .......

Other than that, Bub, you've admitted that half your post was utter crap so why not go the whole way and admit that the rest, such as the introduction of the M1911 .45 in WWII, was even less well informed?


At least the plonker had enough sense to take the 5th instead of continuing to demonstrate his ignorance.

As far as suicide, the .357 magnum would be the weapon of choice; no second shot required!!

Honestly, I'd use a 12 gauge and not a handgun. I've seen TV shows where guys have had nails through their heads and survived. There are *many* instances where people have been shot in the head and survived, some with no obvious impairment.

Saying something is impossible without knowing all of the facts (such as where in the head someone was shot) is, well, "impossible." I've seen photographs of a guy who put a gun underneath his chin and pulled the trigger. The bullet destroyed his nasal cavity and exited between his eyes. Disgusting but he is alive.

As far as suicide, the .357 magnum would be the weapon of choice; no second shot required!!

Honestly, I'd use a 12 gauge and not a handgun. I've seen TV shows where guys have had nails through their heads and survived. There are *many* instances where people have been shot in the head and survived, some with no obvious impairment.

Saying something is impossible without knowing all of the facts (such as where in the head someone was shot) is, well, "impossible." I've seen photographs of a guy who put a gun underneath his chin and pulled the trigger. The bullet destroyed his nasal cavity and exited between his eyes. Disgusting but he is alive.

I recall seeing someone who had actually taken a shotgun and tried to checkout early, he survived but even after several facial reconstruction surgeries, he'll never be able to stop drooling for the rest of his life.

I grew up around firearms my entire life, and have a nice collection back in the states. Smith 9mm, Colt 1911A1 .45 replica, S&W Model 60 .38, browning shotguns, and Marlin and Winchester .22 rifles along with a .22 Sentinel pistol, and a few other collectibles.

I started to write a reply to the damage done by the different calibers and the sort, but as I looked at what I had written. I felt like I was writing an instruction manual on how to kill yourself. So I deleted all the following paragraphs. I think this might have started out as a thread that was just commentary on a real statistical problem in LOS, let alone everywhere else in the world. Whether actual suicides, or coverups of murders, as the thread has progressed, it seems more and more like we are telling people how to off themselves and make sure they checkout for good.

I'm not taking a holier then now approach to this post and the previous posts in the thread by other members, but seriously look at what he have written. Doesn't that strike anyone else like it does me as crossing a moral line unintentionally?

[francois]

. Doesn't that strike anyone else like it does me as crossing a moral line unintentionally?

No! All common knowledge found in any google search. People who shoot themselves are gun owners and know the potential of their weapons.

As far as suicide, the .357 magnum would be the weapon of choice; no second shot required!!

Honestly, I'd use a 12 gauge and not a handgun.

Well, that says a great deal about how much you have learnt about marksmanship during all that time spent "on shooting ranges, at IPSEC meets, and instructing concealed carry courses" and from "most of the luminaries in competitive handgun shooting"!

And please, Bub, in case you are tempted to say something stupid again, I have also been issued with, carried and used shotguns (10 and 12 bore) operationally and used loads I doubt if you (or anyone else not directly involved in the business) has ever heard of.



I grew up around firearms my entire life, and have a nice collection back in the states. Smith 9mm, Colt 1911A1 .45 replica, S&W Model 60 .38, browning shotguns, and Marlin and Winchester .22 rifles along with a .22 Sentinel pistol, and a few other collectibles.

Oh my God, its another one!! I hope you, Col Callan and John J don't have any plans to get together and form a bowling team!!

[Brad the Impala]

Way Way too many gun freaks on this forum! And all so passionate about it and convinced no one but themselves know diddly squat.

Way Way too many gun freaks on this forum! And all so passionate about it and convinced no one but themselves know diddly squat.

That's what I thought too.
I'm glad you said it first so now I don't feel so foolish admitting I don't know squat about guns...except they go BOOM!

(wait 'till 0:53 on this vid for the payoff)

[youtube:2cr5nc10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00SlNX1rFLE[/youtube:2cr5nc10]

Way Way too many gun freaks on this forum!

Not me, Brad - I have never owned a gun in my life, nor have I got much interest in them. The last time I handled one was when I took one off an apparently suicidal American gun nut here after he had wrtten his farewell note to his Thai girlfriend, whom I knew quite well, after she had given him the boot; the last thing I heard from him as I encouraged her into the car and away was "I've got an AK47 upstairs anyway"!!

When offered my choice of sidearm, with a police permit to keep and carry it in my house (in Thailand), I turned it down without a second thought. Totally pointless.

[sattahip-old]

The calibre of the weapon ceases to be a consideration if you just fill your mouth with water and pop the barrel through your lips. A.22 does suffice.

Are you directing the comment about the stupidity of a comment where you impress upon everyone your firearms knowledge towards me, as a pull from my post was directly beneath it?

Sattahip, you actually have the one gun that would be the first choice of many to do the job. Not to mention it was also the choice of many a hitman once upon a time, and still to this day on occasion.

Are you directing the comment about the stupidity of a comment where you impress upon everyone your firearms knowledge towards me, as a pull from my post was directly beneath it?

Presumably this query was meant for me. No, it was not directed to you - my posts follow the normal pattern of quote first then comment.

My comment "And please, Bub, in case you are tempted to say something stupid again, ....." was directed to Bob who had previously claimed erroneously that "a 9mm bullet (width) is not too different from .45 caliber bullet" and that "US forces in WWII began to switch to the .45 caliber handgun as it (as opposed to an M-1 carbine or whatever) would in fact push back a soldier lunging at them with a fixed bayonet (i.e., more stopping power)".

My interest nowadays in firearms is somewhere between non-existent and zero, and my interest in sidearms is even less as I have never had much need to use them, so I really could not care less about impressing anyone with my "firearms knowledge". I am simply pointing out that Bob and mlomker evidently have no practical or personal experience of a subject they claim to be experts on, and that everything they have said on the subject is verifiably incorrect - the technical term I used was "crap".

Alrighty, no harm no foul Gone. Yeah a 9mm and a .45 are severly different. I've carried both types of handguns in everyday life, and have only had to fire a gun in self-defense on one occasion.

A 9mm of course boasts a much higher round capacity, but the .45 is going to put someone's lights out even if you hit them in the arm. The stuff you see in the movies where people fly back from a gunshot, is not the case with a 9mm, but in some instances isn't too far off from a .45. If it were down to a weapon of choice, a .40 caliber would be my preference now. You have a lot more take-down power then a 9mm, but close to the capacity that the 9mm offers. In reality, if you need more then 1 bullet to achieve your goal, you are in trouble to begin with. I think carrying a firearm for personal protection even teaches you that. Its not a matter of trying to kill someone if you have to pull a gun, its a matter of not getting killed yourself.

But, if you do ever pull a gun on somebody, you need to be prepared to take a life. Not something most people are capable of living with, or dealing with. Its only the inexperienced gun owners that never think of the consequences.

There is a saying that my grandpa and my dad used to have. "The more someone knows about guns, the less likely they are to use one." This was their way of explaining why they taught us as children how to shoot and handle firearms to their wives. I think the philosophy rings true though.

There is a saying that my grandpa and my dad used to have. "The more someone knows about guns, the less likely they are to use one." This was their way of explaining why they taught us as children how to shoot and handle firearms to their wives. I think the philosophy rings true though.

I wonder if that also applies to Thailand, with the highest incidence of shootings in the world (with the possible exception of Columbia, where reliable statistics are a bit harder to come by)?

If it does, the Swiss must know one hell of a lot more than anyone else about guns as nearly every home has a gun and ammunition, some several, as a part of the home defence policy, with only (and I use the word for comparative terms only) 300 people killed/injured/committing suicide by them ever year; presumably it also means that the Americans actually know very little about guns??

There is a saying that my grandpa and my dad used to have. "The more someone knows about guns, the less likely they are to use one."Yeah I reckon that stacks up alongside my Mum's statement "If you can't say something nice about a person, don't say anything at all." Our parents really were pretty stupid on the whole weren't they?!

[Beachlover]

I agree. I'm curious why Gone seems to go out of his way to butt heads with other posters. There seems to be this urge to prove self-superiority and others' (perceived) inferiority... does it make you feel important to do this?

Don't mean to make you 'lose face'... just an observation.

[francois]

If it does, the Swiss must know one hell of a lot more than anyone else about guns as nearly every home has a gun and ammunition, some several, as a part of the home defence policy, with only (and I use the word for comparative terms only) 300 people killed/injured/committing suicide by them ever year; presumably it also means that the Americans actually know very little about guns??

From a google search the suicide by firearms in Switzerland is 5.61/100,000 which is not far from the US at 7.35. Finland is 5.75 ranking second. That was in 1994. Maybe there are more up to date numbers?

It seems, not only do they kill themselves, they use their weapons on their families. reported in deutsche welle 29/07/2007

http://www.faebu.com/custom/stgw90.jpg
1 (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/social_affairs/Young_Swiss_hold_European_record_for_gun_suicide.h tml?siteSect=201&sid=9421609&cKey=1217874396000&ty=st) 2 (http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/esc/shared/Crimiscope/crimiscope033_2006_F.pdf) 3 (http://www.friedensrat.ch/images/pk.130706d.pdf) 4 (http://www.friedensrat.ch/images/studie_waffensuizide.pdf) 5 (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2007-releases/press04102007.html) 6 (http://www.protell.ch/Aktivbereich/01Homepage/fr/default_f.htm) 7 (http://www.schutz-vor-waffengewalt.ch/downloads/060713_MK_Waffengesetz_d.pdf) 8 (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/The-Swiss-and-their-Guns.htm)

[quote="Mr.DreamTransport":1vud1pur]There is a saying that my grandpa and my dad used to have. "The more someone knows about guns, the less likely they are to use one." This was their way of explaining why they taught us as children how to shoot and handle firearms to their wives. I think the philosophy rings true though.

I wonder if that also applies to Thailand, with the highest incidence of shootings in the world (with the possible exception of Columbia, where reliable statistics are a bit harder to come by)?

If it does, the Swiss must know one hell of a lot more than anyone else about guns as nearly every home has a gun and ammunition, some several, as a part of the home defence policy, with only (and I use the word for comparative terms only) 300 people killed/injured/committing suicide by them ever year; presumably it also means that the Americans actually know very little about guns??[/quote:1vud1pur]

Mr Fish always makes these sideways comments that a lot of posters don't pick up on.
Yeah, I get it. Very clever.

The more someone knows about nuclear weapons, the less likely he is to use one.

https://cacpeaceday.wikispaces.com/file/view/enola_gay


presumably it also means that the Americans actually know very little about nuclear weapons?

I agree. I'm curious why Gone seems to go out of his way to butt heads with other posters. There seems to be this urge to prove self-superiority and others' (perceived) inferiority... does it make you feel important to do this?

Don't mean to make you 'lose face'... just an observation.

You agree with whom, about what?

While I readily concede that I do sometimes "go out of (my) way to butt heads with other posters", that was anything but the case here. mlomker and Bob posted utter rubbish ("crap") on a subject they both claim to be experts on. Nothing more, nothing less.


It seems, not only do they kill themselves, they use their weapons on their families. reported in deutsche welle 29/07/2007

Agreed, francois, but hardly in large numbers. Considering that there are estimated to be anything up to 3,000,000 firearms kept at home in Switzerland (less than 10% of them military), I think it is notewothy that in 2006 (the latest statistics I can easily find) there were only 34 murders/attempted murders using firearms and 89 cases of assault resulting in actual bodily harm from firearms in Switzerland.


Mr Fish always makes these sideways comments that a lot of posters don't pick up on.
Yeah, I get it. Very clever.

Come on, kenc, it wasn't that hidden (or that clever!). Can I help it if "a lot of posters" aren't too bright? And I haven't been anti-American here generally, except on this thread where the two uninformed gun nuts just happen to both be Americans - one American poster has actually said before that some comments I made about Americans were the fairest he had heard!

I happen to think that the "gun culture" is unpleasant anywhere and that it is most visible and most unpleasant in the States. I disagree that "the more someone knows about guns, the less likely they are to use one" as I think that it is not supported by any evidence - even from a safety perspective comparatively few deaths from firearms in the US are accidents: According to data from the National Center for Health Statistics, in 2001 about 39% of the deaths that resulted from firearm injuries were homicides, 57% were suicides, 3% were unintentional, and 1% were of undetermined intent - http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm . Had it been "the more someone knows about the effects of guns, the less likely they are to use one" then I would have agreed wholeheatedly, but that is no reason to teach children "how to shoot and handle firearms".

A gun nut, to me, is a gun nut whatever his nationality and is to be avoided and pitied in equal measure - avoided because they could be dangerous, and pitied as any Walter Mitty should be pitied.

[kittyboy]

[quote="Gone FishingI wonder if that also applies to Thailand, with the highest incidence of shootings in the world (with the possible exception of Columbia, where reliable statistics are a bit harder to come by)? [/quote]

Looking up something on Wikipedia then passing it off as your factual observation is lame.
If you are referring to the report on wikipedia that thailand has one of the highest homicide by gun rates in the world then you need to look at the underlying data.
Go to the link provided in wikipedia and you will see that the underlying data shows the number of homicides by gun are higher than the total number of homicides. Obviously that is not possible. I suspect there is a problem with the data. Either how it was reported or some other error. If you look at the total homicide rate by country thailand is high but not off the chart.
As I tell my students you need to think about things in context and if it does not make sense then investigate. Don't just believe something to be true because it is posted on the internet.
GF - I do expect a point by point by point rebuttal of how your point of view is correct.
If you want to make yourself out to be an expert on gun violence - go ahead but try not to make a fool of yourself (but that may be the norm so you may not be able to help yourself).

I wonder if that also applies to Thailand, with the highest incidence of shootings in the world (with the possible exception of Columbia, where reliable statistics are a bit harder to come by)?

Looking up something on Wikipedia then passing it off as your factual observation is lame.[/quote][/quote]

An extraordinary observation for someone "passing" himself "off" as a statistician - using that criteria, unless someone factually observed something themselves then any comment they made on anything would be "lame"! Although I did not use Wikipedia as my first reference I admit that I did check my recollection of this on the internet and that I have not factually observed all the shootings in the world!!

Try checking the United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, which gives a clearer breakdown, as well as other sources I refer to in a connected thread. As I said to Brad there, when he made a similarly silly post, "Don't bother with any apology ....., it would be so out of character"



"try not to make a fool of yourself (but that may be the norm so you may not be able to help yourself)" - and I am not an expert on gun violence.

[kittyboy]

passing[/i]" himself "off" as a statistician - using that criteria, unless someone factually observed something themselves then any comment they made on anything would be "lame"! Although I did not use Wikipedia as my first reference I admit that I did check my recollection of this on the internet and that I have not factually observed all the shootings in the world!!
Try checking the United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, which gives a clearer breakdown, as well as other sources I refer to in a connected thread. As I said to Brad there, when he made a similarly silly post, "Don't bother with any apology ....., it would be so out of character"
"try not to make a fool of yourself (but that may be the norm so you may not be able to help yourself)" - and I am not an expert on gun violence.

Go Fuckyourself - I would be happy to make an applogy. I applogize for pointing out to you that you apparently don't know how to interpret data properly. For causing you the pain of that realization I do appologize. There you go :)

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th- ... /cri-crime (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/th-thailand/cri-crime)

Go back to the link you provided in the other thread (see link above). You indicated that this is the source of you data for your statement. You will see that the total murders reported for thailand in the link is 5,140. Then it reports that the number of murders with firearms is 20,032. Clearly you can not have a total of 5,140 murders and as a subset of that 20,032 murders commited by firearms. Something is wrong with the data. If you look at other data (and yes I looked it up on wikipedia and it may be wrong)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate

Thailand reports a murder rate of 8.58 per 100,000 which is again not off the chart.

The link you provides has thailand with a Gun violence > Homicides > Overall homicide rate > per 100,000 pop of 41.4695 - there is a problem with the data. Or they are using differet definitions. It is unclear.

As you have said you are no expert on gun violence but you do have a brain and you need to critically think about what you posted. The numbers don't add up.
As I have said I am an expert in statistics. I would be happy to swap CVs anytime.
Posting something off the internet and not fully understanding what you are posting is pretty common. I run into it all the time with my students but that is part of the learning process. Now go back and look at the numbers and think about what i have told you and you can make progress.

Pissyboy, while your view may or may not be correct, it is totally irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the subject I have posted about. I have never posted anything about murders, as I made very clear. I have posted about homicides, which are a different thing entirely - to simplify the explanation, as i seems beyond you, all murders are homicides but not all homicides are murders, in the same way that all elephants are animals but not all animals are elephants.

Some statistics even on "homicides" are misleading as they only include those where a court found that that there was a deliberate intention to kill rather than to injure and consequently also exclude those deemed to be "accidents".

If you are so proud of your CV, why not post it here as I have suggested?

[giggsy]

[quote="Beachlover"]
Don't mean to make you 'lose face'... just an observation.[quote]

BANGKOK - In what is being hailed as a major medical and cultural breakthrough, doctors at Samitivej Hospital have miraculously saved a manтАЩs face, 23 days after he lost it in an argument with his wife.

The success of the marathon 16-hour surgery will give hope to the millions around the world who have suddenly or unexpectedly lost face and failed to regain it in the hours, days or even years since, as well as to those who suffer from habitual face loss.

The groundbreaking surgery may also have a significant cultural and psychological impact, especially in Asia, where the World Health Organization estimates that more than 40 percent of men and women live their entire lives in fear of losing face.

Thailand has long been known as a leader in face loss prevention. By teaching its youth to never question authority and hierarchy, to avoid confrontation and embarrassment at all costs, and to never stick out from the crowd, Thailand has reduced face loss to record lows in the past two decades. But now, SamitivejтАЩs medical breakthrough will also make the country a pioneer in face loss treatment and recovery.

The successful patient, Anuchai Witinasachawik, a 45-year-old accountant from Bangkok, checked in to Samitivej yesterday morning complaining of anxiety. Further examination by doctors revealed that he was suffering from тАЬextreme sulkiness, bouts of passive aggressive behavior, such as the silent treatment, and unannounced, unexplained absences from workтАЭ тАУ all classic symptoms of face loss.

Further probing by doctors revealed that three weeks ago, at a dinner party he hosted, he had had an argument with his wife over where they had vacationed during Songkran 2002. After calling his wife a тАЬbuffaloтАЭ in front of shocked colleagues, Anuchai reportedly stormed off to prove he тАЬwas right.тАЭ Looking through an old photo album, he was shocked to discover that they had, in fact, gone to Phu Kradung as his wife had said.

Having pinpointed the cause of AnuchaiтАЩs face loss, doctors began with laser surgery, removing the emotional scarring associated with the argument, and then eliminating the brain cells containing both his memories of that night and his tendency toward over-sensitivity. Finally, using cutting-edge facial reconstruction techniques, doctors implanted a permanent smile of AnuchaiтАЩs face.

тАЬHis face is 100 percent saved,тАЬ doctors announced. тАЬHe can return to his wife and workplace and function like a normal, emotionally healthy adult instead of a child. WhatтАЩs more, it is highly unlikely he will ever lose face again because he will always be smiling.тАЭ

[Beachlover]

ROFL... the article's hilarious.

This is like a Thai/Falang version of The Chaser (an Aussie satire show)

[kittyboy]

Pissyboy, while your view may or may not be correct, it is totally irrelevant as it has nothing to do with the subject I have posted about. I have never posted anything about murders, as I made very clear. I have posted about homicides, which are a different thing entirely - to simplify the explanation, as i seems beyond you, all murders are homicides but not all homicides are murders, in the same way that all elephants are animals but not all animals are elephants.

Some statistics even on "homicides" are misleading as they only include those where a court found that that there was a deliberate intention to kill rather than to injure and consequently also exclude those deemed to be "accidents".

If you are so proud of your CV, why not post it here as I have suggested?

Go Fuckyourself - No problem with the CV - send me your and I will post them together..Oh...I forgot, you were a pretty important guy and want to be hush hush..right...were you in the OSS during the war? maybe MI6 or something? in an Ian Fleming novel with James Bond...well hush hush.

The stats you quote are not even in the UN report they are are from a different source. Posing from the internet without understanding what you are posting..tsk tsk.

Hang on I thought Murders were subsets of Homicides ...you just said above that they different thing entirely. Now how stupid is that?
You may try to give the impression that you read the UN 'book' on crime stats and that you are reporting this from you reading of the material. - OK - I will give you the benefit of the doubt. What is the ISBN number of the book? What is the publication information? Sorry, it is clear you read a blurb on the internet and don't really know what the numbers mean but can not admit that without loooking even more stupid. Silly silly man.

It is fine to quarrel about muder. But as a college professor you know the difference between AD REM and AD PERSONAM argumentation. This board is for men. Shot in the neck, to speak with our gun nuts. The honor of the American college professor is at stake! Mind your manners, be a good kitty boy, and I will sing a song for you.

[kittyboy]

It is fine to quarrel about muder. But as a college professor you know the difference between AD REM and AD PERSONAM argumentation. This board is for men. Shot in the neck, to speak with our gun nuts. The honor of the American college professor is at stake! Mind your manners, be a good kitty boy, and I will sing a song for you.

Ah...just having a bit of fun. We are on summer break and there are fewer cute boys around to distract me.
Sigh....What will you sing? Seranade me with a song of sweet love... :)