A language question

[Impulse]

As I try to reach the upper echelons of high Thai society,Im trying to learn proper Thai,not the Thai spoken by go go boys.Although theres nothing wrong with it. Anyway,Im finding two different ways to say thank you,one is korp khun krap(cop coon crap),and the other is khob khun krub(cob coon crub) Why are there two different versions? IN one lesson the male says krub after just about everything.I realise its formal politeness but its very distracting. :scratch:

The sound of "krub" or "krap" is halfway between the two. You aren't hearing two different versions.

Of course, our resident linguist (Smiles -- who thinks there's an accent on the last syllable of Suvarnabhumi) might have a differing opinion.

[Impulse]

I hear a difference between the two from the lesson speakers.And what about the beginning,korp and khob,they are different. Having said that,when I pronounced it cop ccon cop,they acted like I said it right. While were at it chai mai means no,but I was saying mai ow cop and they said that was fine,I guess different way of saying no? Or better yet they were saying to themselves,let the dumb falang think hes speaking thai.

You are hearing differences where there are none. The first word "khob" is just that -- no variations.

"Chai mai" means, "isn't it?" or "right?".

[Impulse]

OOps,I meant to say mai chai instead of chai mai. Mai chai must be the same as mai ow Im presuming. Do you speak fluent thai BB?.

OOps,I meant to say mai chai instead of chai mai. Mai chai must be the same as mai ow Im presuming. Do you speak fluent thai BB?.

Yes, I do -- and read and write. And I have a certificate from the Ministry of Education to prove it.

Mai chai and mai ow are not the same.

Mai chai means "no it isn't". Mai ow means "I don't want".

Rocket, I entirely approve of your ambition to speak correct Thai, and not the peasant drivel perpetrated by the average bar boy. Here in my luxury high-rise condo overlooking Dongtan beach, where appearances count (at least on the upper floors), my Thai boy and I sometimes take matters one stage further and drift into Royal Thai just to add a pleasant note of formality into our intercourse. It slows things down, as you tend to use the grammatical third person rather than the first, but it gives us good practice for that moment when we eventually receive the royal summons to a reception at Hua Hin.

Thai vowels and diphthongs, as you are discovering, can be a little indeterminate and mislead you into thinking you have heard something other than what you've been taught, but here's one little tip which most of the farangs in Pattaya would benefit from: the masculine courtesy word is 'khrap', not 'khap' as you will hear all over town. 'Khap' in this context is broken Thai and should not be used. It actually means 'tight', as in 'my pants are too tight'. Enjoy your lessons.

Agreed. "Khap" is the Thai equivalent of "ain't". Though when in Rome...ie, when among barboys and the common rabble, it fits in just fine. One should always strive to speak in a way that suits ones company, the situation, and surroundings.

[Bob]

the masculine courtesy word is 'khrap', not 'khap' as you will hear all over town. 'Khap' in this context is broken Thai and should not be used. It actually means 'tight', as in 'my pants are too tight'. Enjoy your lessons.

When I hear the word "khrap" (or krub or krap or however you want to spell it in English) spoken in the south half of Thailand, the "r" often sounds half way between an "r" and an "l."

However, up north (e.g., Chiangmai), it's pronounced "khap" and you almost never hear it spoken with the "r"/"l" sound in there.

all you are hearing are slight differences in pronunciation. like anybody, Thai people can be lazy and drop bits out of syllables, khrap often ends up losing the 'r' in casual conversation.

if you want to learn to speak properly, forget about learning from friends, books and CDs, you need to go to a school and learn properly. and i recommend learning to read Thai as early as possible, the countless romanisation systems are a waste of time in the long run. they are all inadequate and confusing.

usually, what you are trying to say is written something like: 'khop khun khrap' -
kh is like english 'k' (some romanisation systems use 'k' but this can be confused with other systems which use 'k' for the 'g' sound of р╕Б at the start of a syllable),
'o' is similar to a long 'o' like in 'often' (here is one of the problems with romanisation systems - there are 4 different thai vowels - 2 long and 2 short - which sound like an english 'o'. representing the 4 different sounds in romanised script is a problem)
the 'p' on the end is a very short sound something between a b and a p sound (some romanisation systems write it as a 'b', some use 'p')
'u' is a short 'oo' sound, like in 'took' but shorter
'n' is easy, just 'n'
'r' is pretty much like an english 'r', and is often dropped in casual situation
'a' is between a short version of the 'a' in 'after' and 'u' in 'up'.

then there are the tones to worry about if u really want to speak properly, 'khop' with a low tone, 'khun' with a mid tone, 'khrap' with a high tone.

[Impulse]

Thank you guys for your imput.As in my original posting,that is the exact spelling they used for saying thank you and in parenthethes is the exact way they pronounced it.Two different teachings,one from the internet and the other from my local library(coversa-phone). I dont want to get hung up on this as there is so much to learn,so I am going to use the cop coon crap version spelled korp khun krap.Not saying the r in the first word but saying it in the last word.Thanks again.

Thank you guys for your imput.As in my original posting,that is the exact spelling they used for saying thank you and in parenthethes is the exact way they pronounced it.Two different teachings,one from the internet and the other from my local library(coversa-phone). I dont want to get hung up on this as there is so much to learn,so I am going to use the cop coon crap version spelled korp khun krap.Not saying the r in the first word but saying it in the last word.Thanks again.

there is no 'r' in the first word: р╕Вр╕нр╕Ъ = kh + long 'o' sound + cut off 'p' or 'b' sound

[Bob]

there is no 'r' in the first word: р╕Вр╕нр╕Ъ = kh + long 'o' sound + cut off 'p' or 'b' sound

I think everyone is referring to the third word, not the first. Oftentimes the first word (р╕Вр╕нр╕Ъ) is spelled "kawp" in English.

I was referring to rocket's remark:

Not saying the r in the first word but saying it in the last word.

[Impulse]

I was posting before I could read your post Dave. Yes that makes sense,its a p and a b sound on the end. Unfortuneatly,I cannot take lessons now as I will be working two jobs,so I am trying to listen to thai speakers and how they pronounce,and repeating like a myna bird. I would give my right arm if I could speak thai like a bar boy,for now that is my goal ,to speak and understand it.Reading and writing will have to come later. Maybe this will make it harder in the long run,but its the only way for now.

[Bob]

Good luck, rocket. I learned some Thai on my own 10 years ago by going through a couple of thai language books and, for me, it seemed that reading and writing Thai only helped me learn the pronunciation. Earlier this year, I took 6 weeks of lessons during my 3-month stay in Thailand and, for the first time, actually started paying attention to the tones. It's very difficult, at least for me.

The most frustrating part is lack of retention. I see the word or phrase, understand it's pronunciation and meaning, and then forget it an hour or two later. I should have learned it when I was 10 rather than trying at 60. But I'm stubborn and I'm keeping at it.....and will return to Thai classes this fall when I return to Thailand.

[Art]

As I try to reach the upper echelons of high Thai society,Im trying to learn proper Thai,not the Thai spoken by go go boys.
The upper echelons of high Thai society?
Proper English?
The upper echelons of Thai high society?
Rocket science.
The upper echelons of Thai society = High Thai society?
Proper Thai?
The upper echelons of Thai society = Thai high society?
Rocket science.
The upper echelons of Thai society?
Proper go-go boy Thai?
High Thai society? Thai high society?
Same same. Jing jing.

The most frustrating part is lack of retention.

Yes, I understand that can be quite a problem with men of your age.

http://ithuglife.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/depends5.jpg

[RichLB]

I'm certainly no expert and if anything, I speak gutter Thai. But, I've been told there is really no "r" in Thai. The letter is pronounced like the English "r" but with a trill - much like the spanish trill, but much much shorter. What you may be hearing is that trill being shorter than your ear is used to by some speakers. I could be all wrong, of course, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.

I believe it is called an "alveolar tap" r, in linguistics.

Similar to the r in the Spanish word "pero". Not quite an "R" and not quite and "L" (in Spanish, it is somewhere between an "R", an "L", and a "D"), it is in fact its own beast and should not be confused with the English "r".

The vowel sound in the word "krub" is also not to be confused with either an English "a" or and English "u" -- it is neither and in between.

That is why it is essential to get away from English transliteration and start reading Thai script.