Is it really lying?

[asdsrfr-old]

I have been thinking about all of the water buffalo, sick Aunt stories that seem to be such a common ploy to get money. I wonder if they constitute lying in the same way that we see it in the west.

Recently a younger friend from Mexico was seriously injured in an accident. As the news spread and many people shared information it became quite obvious that he had led on a number of people about his life and lied about attending school, a dead aunt and so on. A number of friends who are in a position to help out this guys and his family are now holding back because they feel although the accident is true--that they were lied to in the past.

I wonder if the same thing applies to so many of the guys that we meet in Thailand. Should we just accept the stories as little fabrications, or of a sign of an individual that can't tell the truth and steer clear!

[jimnbkk]

Lying is a way of life for these boys. I have known only one that did not lie to me. The rest said whatever they needed to say to (1) keep me from 'asking too many questions', or (2) to get me to give them some money, or (3) because it's what he thinks I want to hear. My current bs is the most accomplished liar so far. He can manufacture tears, sobbing his way through a complete fabrication better than anyone I have ever met. He's a true Superstar liar, and if there was an international competition, he would win hands down.

He's still fun to be around, sometimes, and I'll probably take up with him again when I go back to LOS.

"too soon old, too late smart......"

[gerefan2]

"They are Thai therefore they Lie" an often quoted, and to me, a very true statement. And it is not restricted to GoGo boys...
Unfortunatly the new Farang, who hasnt heard all this before, often falls for it hook, line and sinker.
Call it lies, or anything else, it is dishonest.... but then you must expect that in Thailand.
G2

[Brad the Impala]

Lying is a way of life for these boys

What kind of "boys" are you talking about?

[kittyboy]

I have been thinking about all of the water buffalo, sick Aunt stories that seem to be such a common ploy to get money. I wonder if they constitute lying in the same way that we see it in the west.

Recently a younger friend from Mexico was seriously injured in an accident. As the news spread and many people shared information it became quite obvious that he had led on a number of people about his life and lied about attending school, a dead aunt and so on. A number of friends who are in a position to help out this guys and his family are now holding back because they feel although the accident is true--that they were lied to in the past.

I wonder if the same thing applies to so many of the guys that we meet in Thailand. Should we just accept the stories as little fabrications, or of a sign of an individual that can't tell the truth and steer clear!

Of course he is - Everyone lies every day. Anyone who tells you that they never lie is delusional.
But it is all a matter of degree and how big the lies.
But all of us lie and try to get things out of people or avoid situations by lying. It is human nature.

Get over it.

[francois]

Perhaps they lie because the truth hurts too much? Maybe they do not want us to know they have no food, lodging, no future, etc and are desperate for money but too proud to beg or lose face?

No more a lie then when they pretend you are "so big" and "so handsome", and when they pretend to enjoy having sex with you. Lying is their job.

[Patexpat]

A thai friend once said "farang think all Thais are more stupid than them. If that so, then why do they keep sending us money?"

Lying is lying, no matter how you interpretate it. But you can choose to ignore it, pay for the sick buffalo, and keep your relationship with your boy special.
It's not like you have other options. You can get another Thai boy, but he will give you the same buffalo story.
After all, most relationship between an older farang and a much younger Thai man is more or less based on the money concept., escpecially from your Thai boy special's point of view.

[gra46]

Perhaps they lie because the truth hurts too much? Maybe they do not want us to know they have no food, lodging, no future, etc and are desperate for money but too proud to beg or lose face?

i totally agree ,most of us have seen there living arrangements now put ourself in there shoes ,i would lie to save face or have to beg ....and when i was younger i enjoyed sex with older

Perhaps they lie because the truth hurts too much? Maybe they do not want us to know they have no food, lodging, no future, etc and are desperate for money but too proud to beg or lose face?

i totally agree ,most of us have seen there living arrangements now put ourself in there shoes ,i would lie to save face or have to beg ....

There are also plenty of middle class, professional gay Thai men who live comfortably and do not need to tell you a sick buffalo story. You are just not in their market.

....and when i was younger i enjoyed sex with older

Did you ask for money from your older sex friend?
It is one thing to enjoy sex with older, and another thing to pretend enjoying sex with older for the purpose of money.

[gra46]

....and when i was younger i enjoyed sex with older

Did you ask for money from your older sex friend?
It is one thing to enjoy sex with older, and another thing to pretend enjoying sex with older for the purpose of money.
i didnt ask but it was there and YES i enjoyed the guy ,he was 36 and i was 15 then ,money not the issue with me get back to the post it about thai,s

i didnt ask but it was there and YES i enjoyed the guy ,he was 36 and i was 15 then ,money not the issue with me get back to the post it about thai,s

I am afraid that most of the posters here are well over 36....try 63.
Lol.

[gra46]

i didnt ask but it was there and YES i enjoyed the guy ,he was 36 and i was 15 then ,money not the issue with me get back to the post it about thai,s

I am afraid that most of the posters here are well over 36....try 63.
Lol.
Dirty old fuckers

[Marsilius]

Of course, lying is a two-way street.

How many butterfly farang will say to a one-off boy "yes, I'll see you again tomorrow" or "I'll let you know when I'm planning to come back to Thailand next time" when they have no intention of doing so?

[Khor tose]

Perhaps they lie because the truth hurts too much? Maybe they do not want us to know they have no food, lodging, no future, etc and are desperate for money but too proud to beg or lose face?

Well said and I could not agree more. Yes, you can call it lying or you can take a broader view and call it what it really is, survival.

Perhaps they lie because the truth hurts too much? Maybe they do not want us to know they have no food, lodging, no future, etc and are desperate for money but too proud to beg or lose face?

Well said and I could not agree more. Yes, you can call it lying or you can take a broader view and call it what it really is, survival.

"Survival"...right. Good one.

99 times out of 100 it means a new mobile phone or motorcycle, some piece of brand name clothing, or a booze-and-drugs piss-up with friends.

[pyro]

Well, I do think it is lying. The bigger question I think you are asking, is it wrong? Anytime you tell someone something you know is not true, it is lying. I think that is pretty clear. Now, the reasons we lie can become extremely varied and complicated. Whether or not it is wrong can create an endless debate with no winners. There is the view that any lie is wrong because it is a sin (mostly a christian view I assume). However, even the most devout among them will lie when asked simple questions and think nothing of it. Most westerners lie to their children about a whole host of things like Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny....and I assume other cultures have similar traditions. They lie about where "babies come from", and many others issues. Sometime to "protect" them or to protect someones feelings.

I do not think that lying is wrong in every instance, but I am not Christian either. The reason the boys lie can also be complicated and varied. The Mexican fellow that asdsrfr spoke of is paying the price for lying whether or not it was "wrong." There are consequences to what we do. Sometime there are bad consequences for doing something good. That's life. The boys lie, but we all know it, so the damage is mitigated to some degree. But back to the question of is it wrong, I truly have no idea. The closest I could get is to say it depends on the whole situation, and I do not think we can ever really know the whole situation.

[Wesley]

Lying is lying some for expediency and some for fun and some because that is what they are.

I have been thinking about all of the water buffalo, sick Aunt stories that seem to be such a common ploy to get money. I wonder if they constitute lying in the same way that we see it in the west.

Recently a younger friend from Mexico was seriously injured in an accident. As the news spread and many people shared information it became quite obvious that he had led on a number of people about his life and lied about attending school, a dead aunt and so on. A number of friends who are in a position to help out this guys and his family are now holding back because they feel although the accident is true--that they were lied to in the past.

I wonder if the same thing applies to so many of the guys that we meet in Thailand. Should we just accept the stories as little fabrications, or of a sign of an individual that can't tell the truth and steer clear!

Of course he is - Everyone lies every day. Anyone who tells you that they never lie is delusional.
But it is all a matter of degree and how big the lies.
But all of us lie and try to get things out of people or avoid situations by lying. It is human nature.

Kittyboy - "sorry but I disagree when you say 'everyone lies'. that is not true.

Get over it.

[pyro]

I think everyone lies. Can you actually say you have never said everything is ok even when it wasn't, or that you feel fine when you don't, or that you answer honestly every time someone asks you a question like do these pants look ok, or you like my new haircut, etc. Also, every parent I know has lied to their children: about food, sex, crime, education or something. Maybe it is there to help, but everyone lies. I just don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with it. I think it can be "more wrong" to tell the truth in many situations. If someone I consider to be less than average intellect asked me if I thought they were dumb or slow, I would lie. If someone I thought was ugly asked me how they looked I would lie. When my boss asks me if I mind doing a little extra in this down economy with no extra compensation, I lie. Of course I mind, but I am not stupid enough to say so to my boss when people are getting laid off.

What a sad world some people live in:

Jimnbkk: Lying is a way of life for these boys. I have known only one that did not lie to me. My current bs is the most accomplished liar so far.

Gerefan2: Call it lies, or anything else, it is dishonest.... but then you must expect that in Thailand.

Pissyboy: Everyone lies every day

As has been said before, trust (and, consequently, lying) is a two way street.

and if a visitor was to stay in the red light district of say London, New York, Sydney, etc, and spent their time mixing with a group of prostitutes, i wonder what sort of opinion they would form about us?

[kittyboy]

What a sad world some people live in:

Jimnbkk: Lying is a way of life for these boys. I have known only one that did not lie to me. My current bs is the most accomplished liar so far.
Gerefan2: Call it lies, or anything else, it is dishonest.... but then you must expect that in Thailand.
Pissyboy: Everyone lies every day
As has been said before, trust (and, consequently, lying) is a two way street.

I agree trust is a two way street.
I also recall your recent post where you added additional information (of your own creation) to another person's post in order to bolster you point of view. Mmmmmmm.... that was a big old lie... So you sir are just a big old untrustworthy ....(insert negative comments).

army-selection-time-upon-us-t17418-30.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/army-selection-time-upon-us-t17418-30.html)


I stand by my original statement people lie every day. That makes them flawed and human. The interesting thing is why people lie. Sometimes it is to gain from others. The other extreme might be lying to protect others. In any case to deny the obvious fact that people lie to get along in the world is to live in a sad world. To celebrate human frailty and embrace its contradictions is a thing of joy.

[kittyboy]

Even nonhumans practice deception. Deception may be in our genes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/26/scien ... &8dpc&_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/26/science/26lying.html?pagewanted=1&8dpc&_r=1)

[bing]

I went to ask.com and typed how often to people lie. Here is a partial result... Go to the site and see much more information onthe subject of lying. Most people lie once or twice a day and deceive 30 poeple a week. Most people lie 7 times an hour, if they include the lies they tell to themselves. College students tend to lie in 50% of conversations with their mothers. 70% of doctors lie to insurance companies. It is estimated that 10,000,000 people lie to the IRS (Tax Man) 100% of dating couples say they lie in 33% of conversations with their significant other. 95% of college students say they would lie to win a job, and 41% say they have already lied with employer's questlions. Finally 20 to 30% of middle managers say they have turned in fraudulent reports. This being said, it might shed some new light on being lied to.

[allieb]

and if a visitor was to stay in the red light district of say London, New York, Sydney, etc, and spent their time mixing with a group of prostitutes, i wonder what sort of opinion they would form about us?

I would say that they wouldn't form a generalised opinion about us as as it is very well known that Prosrtitution is a huge industry in Thailand compared to the places you mentioned

[pyro]

Very interesting Bing, thanks for the info. And to think that is just what people are willing to admit to. You have to figure some of those people are not willing to admit to lying, in other words, they are lying about not lying, hahaha.

[gerefan2]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. To quote lies about Santa Claus, tooth fairies and College guys lying to mothers etc., is not the point. These are innocent White Lies, as we say in England.

These guys are lying in order to extract money from you, nothing else, not even offering sex at this stage. Thats deceipt. All Thais deceive from Boys to Police to Taxi Drivers to Touts, and Bar and Sales Staff ( why are we given the wrong change so often in Thailand??).

This is basic dishonesty the amount of which is rampant in Thailand. So why do we keep going there you may ask? The answer to that is pretty obvious and has nothing really do do with the love of the people or culture in 99% of cases.
G2

and if a visitor was to stay in the red light district of say London, New York, Sydney, etc, and spent their time mixing with a group of prostitutes, i wonder what sort of opinion they would form about us?

I would say that they wouldn't form a generalised opinion about us as as it is very well known that Prosrtitution is a huge industry in Thailand compared to the places you mentioned

A 'huge industry'? I guess when you judge Thailand from a bar in Pattaya it probably looks that way. Any data to back up that assertion?

[allieb]

No Data to back it up only my observations on my many trips to many places in Thailand. My own personal view is that sex costs. Be it cash for services or the person is looking for a partner to lift themselves out of the poverty which is widespread in Thailand.

I don't and won't believe that the Farang Thai partnerships straight or gay have love as the basis, its MONEY. Ruthless but true and I don't condem them they badly need cash to live and support their family in most cases. So many farang hve their head so far up their ass they either don't or won't see it. Having said all that I am sure their are exeptions to the rule like in all things in life.

Although I disagree with the idea that most Thai bar-boys are liars and cheats, the reason why anyone should expect Thai bar-boys to be any more honest than their counterparts elsewhere in the world escapes me. I only know those in Thailand, but I really find it very hard to believe that those elsewhere are any more honest - maybe those with more experience abroad could give an objective response.

I have always hated generalizations by race, creed, etc, as I have usually found most people to be much the same the world over - some good, some bad, with most somewhere in the middle. The only characteristic I have noticed in particular in Thailand, which coincidentally seems to be the opposite experience to those who pat themselves on the back with the "my boyfriend's not an ex-bar-boy" line, is that with a few notable exceptions (and I mean a very few) the further up the social/economic scale one looks the more corrupt, dishonest, arrogant and self-seeking they become.

[jimnbkk]

Although I disagree with the idea that most Thai bar-boys are liars and cheats, the reason why anyone should expect Thai bar-boys to be any more honest than their counterparts elsewhere in the world escapes me. I only know those in Thailand, but I really find it very hard to believe that those elsewhere are any more honest - maybe those with more experience abroad could give an objective response.

I don't know about bar boys any place other than Thailand. I expect them to lie. Shucks, them going with me and smiling, pretending they're enjoying my company is a lie, (I'm an old man for pete's sake), so why would I expect their words to be anything different? I do not know what you mean by "cheats". They usually deliver their promised function for the agreed-to price. I do not as a rule check out the 'equipment' they bring to the party because most of them are shy about that sort of thing in the public area of a bar, and so am I. But, so far, I have not had a boy refuse to 'perform', although a few have not done everything I would have liked and expected. I have never refused to tip a boy for lack of performance.

I agree with being unobtrusively prudent with money, camera, passport, etc. before going out. It's common sense, and anybody who doesn't do it is foolish, and somebody who makes a big deal about it in front of the boy is insensitive to his feelings. That's another thing: I never treat a boy as "meat". He's a kid doing a job.

[mj_87-old]

I think a lot of you are missing the point. To quote lies about Santa Claus, tooth fairies and College guys lying to mothers etc., is not the point. These are innocent White Lies, as we say in England.

These guys are lying in order to extract money from you, nothing else, not even offering sex at this stage. Thats deceipt. All Thais deceive from Boys to Police to Taxi Drivers to Touts, and Bar and Sales Staff ( why are we given the wrong change so often in Thailand??).

This is basic dishonesty the amount of which is rampant in Thailand. So why do we keep going there you may ask? The answer to that is pretty obvious and has nothing really do do with the love of the people or culture in 99% of cases.
G2

When a Thai tells a white farang a lie, he is telling a white a lie or in the mangled English of the Thai... white lie.. duh.... I think you are missing the point.

At some point all lying is cultural relativism. What is acceptable deception in one culture or one context may or may not be acceptable in another culture given the context.... If you are laboring under some christen moral absolutism... that really is the last remnant of the white manтАЩs burden - I absolve your of that burden - go in peace my son.

..... there is a real life outside that small circle.

Another one to add to the List of Euphemisms (http://manginamonologues.wordpress.com/2006/07/13/euphemisms-for-anus/)

...There are also plenty of middle class, professional gay Thai men who live comfortably and do not need to tell you a sick buffalo story. ....

So middle class professionals don't lie?!?
Never mind the buffalo. Ever hear the one about the sick Mercedes?

I know personally of at least 6 middle/upper class people who conned others out of hundreds to millions of dollars mainly because they got themselves in some kind of jam (gambling, drugs, overextended lifestyle etc).

Try Bernie Madoff...

or Thaksin Shinawatra?

[francois]

These guys are lying in order to extract money from you, nothing else, not even offering sex at this stage. Thats deceipt. All Thais deceive from Boys to Police to Taxi Drivers to Touts, and Bar and Sales Staff ( why are we given the wrong change so often in Thailand??).
G2

Actually the boys don't lie to me. They just tell me what the money is for; Songkran, cell phone, room rent, etc, etc. Why lie, when it is not necessary?
Francois

Those of you who live in a cocoon of gogo bars and moneyboys will never understand that there is a real life outside that small circle.

There is also "real life" within it, Fatts, good, bad and indifferent.

I, also, "regularly (got) sex without being asked to pay for it" before meeting my partner, from a fairly broad spectrum of Thai society (including but by no means limited to bar boys and freelancers) - since then it has been totally unnecessary for me to trawl the "gogo bars and moneyboys" for it, as he remains the best sex that I have ever had bar none, even though this is far from the most important aspect of our relationship.

Initially I found the constant disparaging of "gogo bars and moneyboys" by those whose relationships with their supposed Thai social superiors are apparently lacking in this particular area, forcing them to look elsewhere for gratification, to be annoying and rather hypocritical - now I simply find it rather absurd.

....Actually the boys don't lie to me. They just tell me what the money is for; Songkran, cell phone, room rent, etc, etc. Why lie, when it is not necessary?
Francois

It must be because of your charming personality and stunning good looks that just sweeps them off their feet and makes them unable to try to pull one over on you. :king:

[francois]

....Actually the boys don't lie to me. They just tell me what the money is for; Songkran, cell phone, room rent, etc, etc. Why lie, when it is not necessary?
Francois

It must be because of your charming personality and stunning good looks that just sweeps them off their feet and makes them unable to try to pull one over on you. :king:

I like to think that but I am known as Saint Francois and give all I have to the poor and the boys know it. Saint = sucker/dupe/soft touch.

[bing]

I posted earlier on the subject of lying, but after a perusal of what has been written I am prompted to offer another observation. It resolves around a question. Who is in charge? Whatever I spend is because I wish to spend it. I have heard some sob stories and I take it that they are true, but I can't solve all of the problems of the world. Gold, Phones and shopping are not my priorities, but can be a fun outing on occasion. I tend to like the Royal Garden especially the Underwear stores. After the purchase my Thai frineds usually take great delight in doning the small piece of cloth for my approval when back in the room. One friend wore the brief underwear to Rits chairs under his pants and said he felt so self conscious as he took a dip in the water with the new underwear. The red cloth did cling to him in a rather porvocative manner as he emerged from the water. He said he wore it for me, but would not wear it at the beach again. This is probably a good idea. On the other hand if a Thai friend needs a trip to the dentist or eye doctor, then I'll pull the bahts out and not quibble at all about the cost. That is a gift I'm happy to give. I let it be known, if he is looking for gold, he had best look elsewhere. I'll be back in LOS in about two weeks, and will see if I can still handle the lies and purse at the same time.

I am prompted to offer another observation. It resolves around a question. Who is in charge?

If offing a boy and paying for a service, you are. If in a "partner" type relationship the question should not arise - if it does, go back to renting.

i didnt ask but it was there and YES i enjoyed the guy ,he was 36 and i was 15 then ,money not the issue with me get back to the post it about thai,s

I am afraid that most of the posters here are well over 36....try 63.
Lol.
Dirty old fuckers

I am continually amazed at the viciousness of age bias in our happy little glee club...


Love is work and the world is an unemployment line.

р╕зр╕┤р╕Чр╕вр╣М

[markie1]

Well i must be the odd one out here then,because i believe my boy friend does not lie to me ,apart from the day to day lieing we all do i trust him 100% ,i do help him of caurse ,because he lives in the coutry ,and works for his parents ,hard graft on the farm, i have known him two years now ,he has never asked for money from me,he has never comes up with sad stories, we have a joint bank account in thailand ,and he never removes money without telling me ,and he is not a spender by any means, of caurse he helps his family a little, luckily they have a buisness so financialy they can manage ,they are not rich,but get by.But maybe the bar boys are Different,i dont know ,the ones i have meet have never worked in bars, so may be that makes a difference.

[kittyboy]

I am prompted to offer another observation. It resolves around a question. Who is in charge?
If offing a boy and paying for a service, you are. If in a "partner" type relationship the question should not arise - if it does, go back to renting.

GF - All relationships are about power - and who has power in what domain and in what situation. Someone will always have more power than another person in a particular realm of a relationship and vise versa.
Money is power.
Sex is power.
Desire conveys power from one to another.
Love and affection confer power.
The list goes on and those attributes are never evenly distributed in a relationship.

"Who is in charge" in a partner type relationship? That question should always arise.
How those questions are answered IMHO is the basis of a partnership... It is foolish to believe that those type of questions about power can be ignored.
Again IMHO.

The list goes on and those attributes are never evenly distributed in a relationship.

"Never" is an absolute which a statistician would "never" use.

[kittyboy]

The list goes on and those attributes are never evenly distributed in a relationship.

"Never" is an absolute which a statistician would "never" use.

Ah..I am glad you defer to my knowledge of research methods and stats.
Never - A referrence to Carl Popper and his famous swans analogy on falsification in science? Unintentional I suspect.

This is not science but the world of interpersonal observation, not empirical testing.
I will stand by my original observation that the attributes of power in relationships are never equaly distributed.
I suspect that you agree with me but are not willing to admit that you were wrong with your advice, so you focus on the word never as a diversion.
Not very clever really.

I will give you another example of the appropriate use of the word never.

GF - You should never add to your suspiciously ever lengthening list of self-described expertise the talent of advice columnist.
Your opinions and advice always (the opposite of never) meet the asshole test.

They stink.

A thai friend once said "farang think all Thais are more stupid than them. If that so, then why do they keep sending us money?"

This is wonderful, nobody is that stupid. Ultimately, each "one" is getting something out of it. If I send money to any of them, 1) its not much; and 2) I want something for it. And besides all that, what else does a rich ole falang do with his money!

[Brad the Impala]

A thai friend once said "farang think all Thais are more stupid than them. If that so, then why do they keep sending us money?"

This is wonderful, nobody is that stupid. Ultimately, each "one" is getting something out of it. If I send money to any of them, 1) its not much; and 2) I want something for it. And besides all that, what else does a rich ole falang do with his money!

Buy clean underwear? Splash out on photographs of himself wearing more than his underwear?

[Khor tose]

GF - All relationships are about power - and who has power in what domain and in what situation. Someone will always have more power than another person in a particular realm of a relationship and vise versa.
Money is power.
Sex is power.
Desire conveys power from one to another.
Love and affection confer power.
The list goes on and those attributes are never evenly distributed in a relationship.

"Who is in charge" in a partner type relationship? That question should always arise.
How those questions are answered IMHO is the basis of a partnership... It is foolish to believe that those type of questions about power can be ignored.
Again IMHO.

Very well said.
:salute:

... what else does a rich ole falang do with his money!
Its amazing how far $100 US can go to help poor people along and how little it helps a Westerner to live (well at least where I live).

...Saint = sucker/dupe/soft touch.
And they're the first ones in line to get into Heaven.

Actually I'm lucky. My first ladyboy friend was the archetype "Thai Liar" and really took me for a ride. Ripped me off bigtime. Boy, did I learn my lesson...which was how complicit I was in my own deception.
What can I say...Ginormous Cock = "drooling farang sucker"!

Current ladyboyfriend doesn't seem to be able to tell a lie to save his life. I can suss him out as soon as he starts and he gets all tounge-tied. He usually ends with "Oh Ken, don't yak-yak me!" and blurts out the truth. But then he usually gets his way after some kiss-kiss stuff.

Lies are lies...in ANY society.
But then, as Hugo writes in "Les Mis" "The law, in its equality, forbids the Rich, as well as the Poor, to steal bread, beg in the streets and sleep under bridges".

I actually have more trouble trying to figure out if farangs are lying to me.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Lying is a way of life for these boys. I have known only one that did not lie to me. The rest said whatever they needed to say to (1) keep me from 'asking too many questions', or (2) to get me to give them some money, or (3) because it's what he thinks I want to hear. My current bs is the most accomplished liar so far. He can manufacture tears, sobbing his way through a complete fabrication better than anyone I have ever met. He's a true Superstar liar, and if there was an international competition, he would win hands down.

He's still fun to be around, sometimes, and I'll probably take up with him again when I go back to LOS.

"too soon old, too late smart......"

I think after witnessing the collapse of the world financial system we could easily saying lying is par for the course for just about everyone.

Why knock a few poor lads in the Third World for indulging in some creative accounting ?

[kittyboy]

I use a variant of the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) principle, which I call Mutually Assurded Delusion.

It is quite simple and effective.

I engage in the self-delusion that the guy I am with is really gay and likes having a 50 year old guy go hard up him.

I then assume that the guy I am with is delusional in thinking that I can be conned into believeing his sob sister story and end up sending him lots of money over the year till my next visit.

At the end of the trip I tip the nice young man generously, swap email addresses, exchange pleasant emails and ignore the dead and dying live stock problems that seem to plague thailand.

Mutually Assured Delusion -- Everyone ends up a bit happier and better off... A win win situation... A classic example of happier living through denial and delusion.

Very well said.

KT,

I have to confess that I am a little surprised at you and it is possible that you have misunderstood what I wrote. To say that "Someone will always have more power than another person in a particular realm of a relationship and vise versa. Money is power. Sex is power. Desire conveys power from one to another. Love and affection confer power. The list goes on and those attributes are never evenly distributed in a relationship." is simply stating the blindingly obvious. Of course these things are seldom equal, however if you are lucky there is a balance; if not, you simply make the best of what you have.

What is wrong in a personal relationship with simply accepting that you each have you own strengths and weaknesses, attributes and failings, without having to question and quantify them to establish who has "the power" and who is "in charge"?

Why is it so important that the question of "Who is in charge" in a partner type relationship" should always arise", and how can this be so important that the answer actually forms "the basis of a partnership" rather than love and mutual respect?

I quite accept that the question may be critical under certain circumstances, and that sometimes it should have been raised but apparently was not, but in many others it may be of no importance or no interest to those concerned (or to anyone else). Victoria and Albert spring to mind as an example of a relationship where it would be difficult to say who was "in charge", and where the question does not appear to have been raised or necessary despite its being of critical importance to a nation/empire, while Victoria and John Brown are a contrasting example of one where the question was not raised until the relationship was well established, even though many felt it should have been, and it could be argued that "the power" changed hands more than once.

While "power" and being "in charge" may be the be-all and end-all of their dreams and aspirations for some, particularly those who have never had it, to others it is of rather less importance than love, contentment and happiness. If you genuinely believe that "All relationships are about power" then I credited you with more experience and a broader perspective, and you have my sympathy as I think you are missing out on a great deal.

[Khor tose]

GF Kitty wrote this. I both understand and agree with it. I will let Kitty explain it to you if he wants. It suffices to say that you are overthinking the whole thing, but I am not surprised you are doing that.

[giggsy]

[youtube:i62f6e5z]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM[/youtube:i62f6e5z]

i can't decide who is the funnier gone fishing and kittyboy or monty python perhaps we should run a poll

Ohhhh, that's funny giggsie :thumbright:

But Mr "I Love Quotes" Fishing does have some points...

...What is wrong in a personal relationship with simply accepting that you each have you own strengths and weaknesses, attributes and failings...
I realized a long time ago I have absoulte- Nuclear Level- power in this relationship. I could just walk away and leave her where I found him. We had one drunken argument a few years back when he threatened to leave and I told him to go right ahead. Within a fraction of a second he'd realized what he'd done and was reduced to blubbering tears. It was at that point I realized that I'm a LOT more mature emotionally and intellectually and can handle myself a lot better...and more gently if I chose.
I'm trying to foster a relationship where he feels comfortable enough not to think he has to tell me a lie to get what he wants. And sometimes that means turning a blind eye. But when I do I let him know later.

But there are liars out there!
Both Thai and farang.
Be careful.....

[EDIT: OOOHHH! POST 1000!! Do I get a prize now Spikey?]

GF Kitty wrote this. I both understand and agree with it. I will let Kitty explain it to you if he wants. It suffices to say that you are overthinking the whole thing, but I am not surprised you are doing that.

KT, I was aware that Pissyboy wrote it, but I thought that there was at least some chance of a rational explanation from you of just why you agreed that control and power formed the basis of all relationships, rather than just being one of many factors such as love, trust, affection or mutual respect, whereas there was no chance of one from Pissyboy. Clearly I was wrong.

Kenc, my apologies for all the quotes - I have edited the post so that they are less prominent. Like others, I find the quote/italicise/enbolden/underline functions on the new forum to be rather less convenient and readable than on the old one, but apparently this cannot be modified.

[vnman]

[quote="Khor tose":2jboalmq]GF Kitty wrote this. I both understand and agree with it. I will let Kitty explain it to you if he wants. It suffices to say that you are overthinking the whole thing, but I am not surprised you are doing that.

KT, I was aware that Pissyboy wrote it, but I thought that there was at least some chance of a rational explanation from you of just why you agreed that control and power formed the basis of all relationships, rather than just being one of many factors such as love, trust, affection or mutual respect, whereas there was no chance of one from Pissyboy. Clearly I was wrong.

Kenc, my apologies for all the quotes - I have edited the post so that they are less prominent. Like others, I find the quote/italicise/enbolden/underline functions on the new forum to be rather less convenient and readable than on the old one, but apparently this cannot be modified.[/quote:2jboalmq]

What's love got to do with it?

Parents love their children to dead and children their parents, but there's is always a power struggle going on.

Parents love their children to dead and children their parents, but there's is always a power struggle going on.

Agreed, vnman, but is power the basis of that relationship or love - or is it a combination of factors?

[kittyboy]

Gone Fuckingmyself wrote тАУ

KT, I was aware that Pissyboy wrote it, but I thought that there was at least some chance of a rational explanation from you of just why you agreed that control and power formed the basis of all relationships, rather than just being one of many factors such as love, trust, affection or mutual respect, whereas there was no chance of one from Pissyboy. Clearly I was wrong.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go Fuckyourself тАУ It is rather sweet and endearing of you to respond to my little missives.

However, Gone Flacid you seem to have a problem with truth telling. As was pointed out earlier in this thread you misquoted someone in the thread below and added your own BS in an attempt to bolster your argument.

army-selection-time-upon-us-t17418-30.html


Again you have done the same thing, adding to my comments your own BS and then attacking. Sorry, that is sort of pathetic. You have described yourself as тАЬimportantтАЭ (self-important IMHO) but you also seem to have a problem with the truth.

I will stand by my original comments that, all relationships are about power - and who has power in what domain and in what situation.


This thread is titled тАЬIs he really lying?тАЭ which is ironic given your posts. My answer would be of course Go Fuckyourself is misrepresenting .. a form of lying.

Giggsy тАУ
Monte Python is very funny.
I like to think that I am sometimes amusing.
Go Fuckhimself is self-described тАЬimportantтАЭ and my experience is that people like that are humorless and in general assholesтАж but again IMHO.

I will also accept nominations for what the initials GF stand for. I like Go Fuckyourself but varietyтАж.. variety.

[Khor tose]

I will also accept nominations for what the initials GF stand for. I like Go Fuckyourself but varietyтАж.. variety.

I vote for gone fishing, as your nicknames are just cheap shots and make you, not him, look bad.

]

I don't know about bar boys any place other than Thailand. I expect them to lie. Shucks, them going with me and smiling, pretending they're enjoying my company is a lie, (I'm an old man for pete's sake), so why would I expect their words to be anything different? I do not know what you mean by "cheats". They usually deliver their promised function for the agreed-to price. I do not as a rule check out the 'equipment' they bring to the party because most of them are shy about that sort of thing in the public area of a bar, and so am I. But, so far, I have not had a boy refuse to 'perform', although a few have not done everything I would have liked and expected. I have never refused to tip a boy for lack of performance.

I agree with being unobtrusively prudent with money, camera, passport, etc. before going out. It's common sense, and anybody who doesn't do it is foolish, and somebody who makes a big deal about it in front of the boy is insensitive to his feelings. That's another thing: I never treat a boy as "meat". He's a kid doing a job.


What Jim said.

:bounce:

[kittyboy]

I will also accept nominations for what the initials GF stand for. I like Go Fuckyourself but varietyтАж.. variety.

I vote for gone fishing, as your nicknames are just cheap shots and make you, not him, look bad.

Fellow board posters, ladies and gentlemen - a few of you may be ladies but certainly even fewer are gentlemen...

I do appologize if any of you take offense at my nicknames for gone fishing. I thought name calling on these boards was all in good fun. GF calls me pissyboy and I then get to tweak his name. I know it is childish but I do love to indulge in my pre-pubescent side on the occasion and deflate the pompous and humorless.

Additionally, you have to admit that the initials GF are ripe with abusive possibilities :)

Gone Flacid
Gone Flatulent
Gone Fisting

etc...