Drug addiction - some thoughts

There have been a number of threads made here on the options open if your Thai boyfriend is an addict and how best to help him - and yourself. While the majority of those here will probably never find themselves in that predicament, or they will get out of it before they become too deeply involved, the chances are that some will and that knowing some of the options and some of the pitfalls could help.

My own view and experience is not only that there is no "one size fits all" solution but that what works in the West may well not work here, and vice-versa. The following are not "guidelines", but are just some ideas resulting from my own experience and mistakes which could avoid or minimize the emotional, financial and even physical damage which involvement in a relationship with a Thai addict could bring, in what I would suggest is a logical order. Even though the symptoms vary with the type of addiction (yaa-baa, glue, solvent, etc, etc) the re-habilitation processes (apart from for the "hard" drugs) are surprisingly similar.

1. Confirm that he is an addict. This may not be as easy as it sounds - some people just behave strangely, sleep a lot, have mood swings, etc. Do your homework before asking or accusing and before, quite possibly, making a problem for yourself - you could be wrong.

2. Establish the depth of your relationship for yourself. Determine exactly what your relationship is and you will have a better idea of just how much you can and should be involved. Although you may think that you are "in love" (I did), the chances are that if you are 30 years older than him and the only thing you have in common is your wanting to get your hands on his body and his wanting to do the same to your money that you are not. In my case I was 29 and he was 18 when we met and I was guilty of naivety rather than delusion, but the results were still the same.

3. Decide how much you are prepared to be involved. Make sure you know exactly what your emotional and financial limits are yourself and stick to them whatever happens. It may be mixing metaphors, but there is a very real danger that the crutch you are providing for support for him becomes a rod with which to beat yourself, or that the safety net you have given him becomes a noose for you to hang yourself with.

4. Find out if he genuinely wants help and, if so, how much he is prepared to let you be involved. Unless he wants help, genuinely and unreservedly, anything you do will be wasted. Ignore anything and everything he says that is negative, such as any attempt to minimize or normalize the problem on the grounds that many others are doing the same (or worse) or that certain options for treatment are no good - he may be right, but he may well just be avoiding options he does not like. If he is only prepared to accept help on his terms the conclusion is obvious - no matter how much you may want to help, ultimately it is entirely up to him.

5. Look at all the options. Just because something does not work in the West or in your own experience do not dismiss it as not being an option here. While you may not believe or understand some Thai beliefs, which are strongly animist as well as Buddhist and which pervade all levels of Thai culture and society, there is no doubt that these beliefs will have some effect on any Thai.

There are rehabilitation centres throughout Thailand; few follow Western programmes, but they are not designed for Westerners. These vary from small clinics and temples which specialise in treating drug addicts to large clinics internationally recognized by the UN. None offer a guaranteed cure any more than any clinics do in the West, but they are an option.

If you are researching the subject constructively forget about the cause of the addiction, the hows and whys, etc, which are of no more than background academic interest and which you are unlikely to be in a position to do anything about apart from complain and despair, and concentrate on the personal issue, rehabilitation and the specific options you have and how you can influence him to agree to the one you choose.

6. Accept and realize your place. While the chances are that you are the elder one in the relationship, possibly by some decades, do not assume that either this or what you may see as your own status, position and experience elsewhere entitles you to any of the respect from your partner which he would normally give to his own family or "elders and betters". It does not - you are outside the Thai system and so accepted on different terms.

If you genuinely feel that you are his "partner" and have certain responsibilities then make the most of it, but do not assume that this or your personal status, etc, is of any relevance or importance whatsoever to his family, his peers or those such as his village council. It is not. Even if you can do so fluently in the local dialect or they all speak your language, trying to advise or tell them what they need to do to help, what the problem is, what you expect from them, etc, is as arrogant and offensive as it would be under similar circumstances in the West and is likely to be treated in a similar way, even though it would probably be accepted considerably more politely.

7. Be prepared for failure. Success rates are not high and the probability is that he will not get over his addiction, particularly in the short term. The best clinic has an 80% failure rate, while most others and most temples admit to a 90-95% failure rate and the chances of his full recovery initially on his own or even with family support are as low as 1%.

8. Decide what you will do in the event of failure in advance and stick to it however hard it may seem at the time. In my own case after my moving to Thailand, and after some 7 years as an addict (4 prior to our meeting), his recovery after a period of full-time in-patient treatment in a clinic lasted for less than 4 hours (including the drive from Bangkok to Pattaya). After a few more months of hell on earth for both of us I finally had the sense to realize that if one of us was not going to kill the other we had no option but to separate, although the "relationship" continued off and on (more "off" than "on", fortunately, and at a distance) for a few more years. He is now 39, has a steady job, wife and family and although he has a number of other problems (not least his alcoholism and ignored HIV), at least he has not been an addict for several years - much the same time, co-incidentally, that I severed all ties with him and removed the "crutch" he had had for too long. In hindsight, apart from the financial support he benefited from (including a house in Pattaya) which I neither be-grudge nor regret, things would certainly have been better for me and probably no worse for him had we parted company after the first failure.


Ultimately, it is all in his hands, but that does not mean either that you should not get involved or that you should take sole responsibility for his future. The choice is yours - just look at the options before making it.

[Aunty]

Here are the 12-steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. I don't see any reason why these couldn't be easily adapted to Thailand and the Thais. Smiles will find them very useful as well.


The 12 Steps

* Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable

* Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity

* Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God

* Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves

* Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs

* Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character

* Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings

* Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all

* Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others

* Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it

* Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out

* Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Are there any AA or NA meetings in BKK, Pattaya or Hua Hin?

I didn't know you had to be a believer in God to do the 12-step. Where do us atheists go to dry out?

Are there any AA or NA meetings in BKK, Pattaya or Hua Hin?

And no Homintern around when we need him most! I need a drink. Make it a double!
Cheers!

[Dodger]

Aunty Wrote:


Are there any AA or NA meetings in BKK, Pattaya or Hua Hin?

There are AA meetings in Bangkok, although, from what I understand, these meetings were orgainized by farang and are conducted in the English language, thus not providing any real benefit for a Thai. Even though Narcotics Anonymous (NA) follow the same 12 Step methodology as AA, NA meetings for drug addicts are totally non-existent in Thailand.

It is the absense of any structured methodology, such as the AA/NA 12 Step Program, which contributes to the lack of Thailands capabilities to rehabilitate drug addicts. Understanding of course, that the success rates of any Recovery Program, regardless of what methodology it subscribes to, relies almost exclusively on the addict himself, as the success rates that Programs such as AA and NA have in the West don't have overwhelming success either, although tens of thousands of people have given credit to AA/NA for saving their lives.

Now, if someone were to develope a similar 12 Step Program parelleling, or more aligned with, Buddhist beliefs, I believe they would end up with a sound methodolgy. At least one which could be more easily comprehended and followed within the Thia/Buddhist culture.

It's the lack of this understanding of drug addiction in Thailand which leads rehabilitation efforts astray in my opininion. As I mentioned in another post on this topic, the majority of rehab centers in LOS simply apply military-style programs where physical exercise and adherance to strict rules serves as the core "methodology." These Programs, in their current state, are no more than homes for wayward children - not drug addicts.

Not wanting to detract from the author of this posts opening comments, as he and I have already debated these things on another post, I would like to make one point: Most of us here are >50 years old and hoping to live out the reat of our lives in a somewhat pleasurable manner. I, like many here, have my sights set on having a relationship with someone who is less than half my age, who will be somewhere around 35 - 40 years old at the time that I have one foot placed on a banana peel and the other in the grave. Would I really be willing to wait that long for him to recover from his addiction...so I can yell up to him as I'm tumbling into my grave..."hey, great job with your recovery." ???

Having said that, what I believe to be the best advice for an aging farang is to avoid having any interaction with a drug addict whatsoever. If you were in a relationship with a boy prior to him becoming addicted to drugs (or alchohal), then give it your best shot at trying to support his recovery, although set conditions for yourself if he fails. As there are no effective rehabilitation centers for us either. We are adicted to them - the same way the addict is addicted to his drug of choice. Maybe we need a 12 Step Program to help us during our recovery ? .


The 12 Steps to Recovering from a Thai Boy


* Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over the boy - that our lives had become unmanageable

* Step 2 - Came to believe that remaining a butterfly and getting good and drunk could restore us to sanity

* Step 3 - Made a decision to turn attentions towards boys who are not addicted.

* Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless inventory of the boys we had sacked.

* Step 5 - Admitted to ourselves, and to Gary at the Corner Bar, the exact nature of our wrongs.

* Step 6 - Were entirely ready to remove all these defects as long as we could still have more boys.

* Step 7 - Humbly asked our next boyfriend to understand my shortcomings, as long as it doesnтАЩt cost more than 500 baht.

* Step 8 - Made a list of all boys we had sacked, and became willing to sack each of them again.

* Step 9 - Made direct amends to these boys wherever possible, except when to do so would fuck up the relationship with the live-in companion.

* Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly headed back to the Corner Bar.

* Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our day-to-day relationships with many boys тАУ versus becoming addicted to just one.

* Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other boy addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

[MiniMee]

NA meetings for drug addicts are totally non-existent in Thailand.

Talking bollocks as usual http://www.na-thailand.org/meetings.html

[Khor tose]

Here are the 12-steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. I don't see any reason why these couldn't be easily adapted to Thailand and the Thais. Smiles will find them very useful as well.

Okay, I will play Homi on this one,. The 12 step AA program is not anything I would recommend to anyone. How anyone with any science background could recommend a program with the failure rate of this pile of garbage is beyond me. By AA own admission only 5% of the people who come to AA get cured. Guess what, the percentage of alcoholics who quite all on their own is? How surprising it is 5%! In other words the success rate of AA is exactly the same as doing nothing and getting no help. The VA and other programs that use cognitive therapy, medications (yes, several very good ones), reconnection with family, non-drinking friends, and employers combined with real group counciling has had success rates as high as 46%. However, this is an expensive program.

AA is actually part of the drug problem in America, because it is widely supported by state and local governments that do not want to spend money treating addicts. You either spend thousands to cure an addict or you put them in free AA. AA is thinly disguised religion (and has so been ruled to be a religion in NY and California). Not only is it a religion with its undocumented and dangerous dogma, but it is a Christian religion. No attempt to get at the problem that underlies the addiction is attempted, instead they talk about having a disease that defies all disease models known to science. (The AMA does not support alcohol addiction as a disease.) The worst thing is that it is a place for the sober to pray on the vulnerable, which is the most practiced and unlisted 13th step.

I can recommend many books that support and amplify on the views above but for a quick take this is what I would recommend. Showtime ran a program for three years by Penn and Teller where they exposed myths, fakes, etc. One of these show was on 12 step bullshit. It is in three parts on utube and here are the Url's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwx2P5L ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwx2P5LJgk&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjpOsE3 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjpOsE3xoY&feature=related)

NA meetings for drug addicts are totally non-existent in Thailand.

Talking bollocks as usual http://www.na-thailand.org/meetings.html

Indeed, Dodger is often caught pontificating on things he knows nothing about.

I wonder if there are NA meetings for drug addicts in Miramar? Dodger?

[dab69]

saw on TV a program about cult/brainwashing
their first three steps are the same

[giggsy]

Excellent post Gone Fishing.. But on all the precautions we take to avoid STD's is there any way of telling if a boy is an addict.Mark has mentioned about the smell on their breath but that only relates to if the user has smoked yaba. What are the signs (if any) if the boy has taken a tablet ? On my last visit I offed a boy who on the 3rd off had red eyes. I wondered at the time if it was as a result of drugs but it could have been tiredness or even hay fever.But when we see them on stage in their skimpy shorts the last thing we are thinking is "I wonder if this boy is an addict" Sometimes at home and sober reading these posts sounds even more sobering but after a couple of G&T's and the sight of a georgeous body all rationale goes out the window.

[Diec]

There must be something we as the gay community can do to get these lovely young Thai boys off drugs. Perhaps a generous bar owner may be willing to host a fund raiser? Items could be donated and then raffled off, a small cover charge of 50 baht could be charged with the proceeds going to help the young men, if we just use our imaginations, we can come up with all sorts of ways to raise money. If we save even one life...it will all be worth it. What do you say bar owners, who's on board??

As a member of AA for 4 1/2 years, I can assure you it does actually work.....not just for alcohol but drugs as well. AA is actually available for native Thai's. While it of course started within the farang community it is now becoming well established for the Thai as well. The southeast Asia AA conference which is held in Pattaya in February had 400 attendees, 150 of which were native Thai.....

[Dodger]

Liam Wrote:

[quote]As a member of AA for 4 1/2 years, I can assure you it does actually work.....not just for alcohol but drugs as well. AA is actually available for native Thai's. While it of course started within the farang community it is now becoming well established for the Thai as well. The southeast Asia AA conference which is held in Pattaya in February had 400 attendees, 150 of which were native Thais...[quote]

Liam...I have several friends who owe AA/NA their lives and can assure you that my poor attempt at humor earlier was in no way intended to insult the AA organization or its members. I have several friends who owe their lives to AA/NA and I have the highest respect for those who participate in these programs, and especially those who go on to recover from their addictions.

It's also encouraging to hear about the Thai AA Program getting developed. Do you by chance have any knowledge of Thai Rehab Programs structured on the AA/NA 12 Step Program ? If so, please let us know. It appears as if there's been some progress made since this time last year when I searched for this.

Thanks for your comments.

[Khor tose]

As a member of AA for 4 1/2 years, I can assure you it does actually work......

Liam, if it works for you that is great. All I can say is that case is "keep working the program".

[Dodger]

Khor tose babbled...


AA is actually part of the drug problem in America, because it is widely supported by state and local governments that do not want to spend money treating addicts. You either spend thousands to cure an addict or you put them in free AA. AA is thinly disguised religion (and has so been ruled to be a religion in NY and California). Not only is it a religion with its undocumented and dangerous dogma, but it is a Christian religion. No attempt to get at the problem that underlies the addiction is attempted, instead they talk about having a disease that defies all disease models known to science. (The AMA does not support alcohol addiction as a disease.) The worst thing is that it is a place for the sober to pray on the vulnerable, which is the most practiced and unlisted 13th step.

So tell us Khor tose, what finally worked for you. Electro-shock therapy possibly ?

[Khor tose]

Khor tose babbled...


AA is actually part of the drug problem in America, because it is widely supported by state and local governments that do not want to spend money treating addicts. You either spend thousands to cure an addict or you put them in free AA. AA is thinly disguised religion (and has so been ruled to be a religion in NY and California). Not only is it a religion with its undocumented and dangerous dogma, but it is a Christian religion. No attempt to get at the problem that underlies the addiction is attempted, instead they talk about having a disease that defies all disease models known to science. (The AMA does not support alcohol addiction as a disease.) The worst thing is that it is a place for the sober to pray on the vulnerable, which is the most practiced and unlisted 13th step.

So tell us Khor tose, what finally worked for you. Electro-shock therapy possibly ?

My only addiction was cigarettes and I quit cold turkey. You? If you disagree with the above how about some facts. Or can you only imply something is wrong with others who have different view points. Bet you did not check out the Penn and Teller presentation. I assume you believe in god and all of the other myths too. Why not light a candle and pray for my soul?

Well, I can honestly say that I am more than a little surprised at the amount of response, most of it well-informed and reasoned (and not yet too personal!). I should possibly have been clearer in my original aim, which was intended far more to help those farangs who found themselves in a similar situation to myself, Dodger, or I am sure others, than to try to devise some sort of successful rehabilitation programme. Were I able to do such a thing I would have done so already and been reaping the considerable financial rewards - as I imagine anyone else would who is posting here instead. While I applaud Diec's intentions, therefore, I can see little point in such fund-raising unless any funds raised are used to fund something constructive and I just cannot see what that would be.

Dodger, despite our disagreements elsewhere, I think as far as this topic goes we agree on far more than we disagree (although I know nothing about AA so cannot comment on that aspect).


.... the success rates of any Recovery Program, regardless of what methodology it subscribes to, relies almost exclusively on the addict himself, as the success rates that Programs such as AA and NA have in the West don't have overwhelming success either

Agreed - but unless I am mistaken even the best (most expensive?) clinics in the West have pretty poor success rates, reportedly no better than those here.


if someone were to develope a similar 12 Step Program parelleling, or more aligned with, Buddhist beliefs, I believe they would end up with a sound methodolgy. At least one which could be more easily comprehended and followed within the Thia/Buddhist culture.

I think this already exists, and I am not being facetious. The first four steps would be to understand the Four Noble Truths: Dukkha (suffering), Samudaya (greed that causes dukkha), Nirodha (the cure for dukkha, overcoming selfishness and craving - and addiction) and Magga (the middle way). The next eight would be the Eightfold Path: right belief, resolution, speech, action, living, effort, mindfulness and meditation. Nirodha would appear to be the key, unfortunately it is not that easy to find (and not available in tablet form).


the majority of rehab centers in LOS simply apply military-style programs where physical exercise and adherance to strict rules serves as the core "methodology."

Agreed, to a certain extent, but with some provisos. Buddhist teachings are nearly always included and this is still very much the "Thai way" in many areas, so it is unlikely that the rehabilitation of drug addicts will lead the way - simply look at the school teaching methods, the use of military style uniforms for all branches of civil servants, the medals, the flag flying and anthems, the wai (or salute), the obligatory boy scouts/girl guides, conscription, even marching bands, and you can see why this is such a part of any programme.


I would like to make one point: Most of us here are >50 years old ..... Would I really be willing to wait that long for him to recover from his addiction...so I can yell up to him as I'm tumbling into my grave..."hey, great job with your recovery." ???

Agreed, 100% - which is why I agree with you and Khor tose on this - if you are involved, and want to be, give it what you think is your best shot and if that fails then get out of it, swallowing any feelings of failure / pride/obstinacy / guilt, etc.


what I believe to be the best advice for an aging farang is to avoid having any interaction with a drug addict whatsoever.

Again, agreed 100% - I would, however, extend this to any farang (not just an aging one!). The reason my own trials and tribulations lasted for so long was not because I thought time was on my side or that I had an excess of patience (I am actually considerably more patient now, even though it is all comparative), it was simply because I was too stupid to realise my mistakes - pride, obstinacy, guilt, etc, and in particular a sense of failure; up to that point I had never failed at anything I had tried to do so I did not want this to be a first, and I was too blinkered to realise that it was not a question of my own success or failure at all.


I didn't know you had to be a believer in God to do the 12-step

Neither did I - as at least 6 of the 12 steps refer to God, however, this appears to be undeniable. A real surprise to me.


..... No attempt to get at the problem that underlies the addiction is attempted, instead they talk about having a disease that defies all disease models known to science. (The AMA does not support alcohol addiction as a disease.)

I hope this does not throw the thread off track, but this sounds strangely similar to that other "disease" - homosexuality - complete with a similar "cure" proposed by some of the Christian right groups. That, despite the number of lives saved, etc, I find seriously worrying.


... is there any way of telling if a boy is an addict(?)

I only wish there were and it was so simple - if it was there would be no need for urine tests, etc. The only solution (for us) must be to be aware of the signs and symptoms and, if you are not, to ask (as Mark did). In my own case the signs and symptoms were blindingly obvious and I was just totally unaware of them; I had absolutely no experience of drugs or drug addiction at the time and, in hindsight, even I find it hard to believe I was quite so naive and have to put it down to "the foolishness of youth" - now, on the other hand, I am "a sadder and a wiser man"!

[Khor tose]

.... the success rates of any Recovery Program, regardless of what methodology it subscribes to, relies almost exclusively on the addict himself, as the success rates that Programs such as AA and NA have in the West don't have overwhelming success either

Agreed - but unless I am mistaken even the best (most expensive?) clinics in the West have pretty poor success rates, reportedly no better than those here.

In my own case the signs and symptoms were blindingly obvious and I was just totally unaware of them; I had absolutely no experience of drugs or drug addiction at the time and, in hindsight, even I find it hard to believe I was quite so naive and have to put it down to "the foolishness of youth" - now, on the other hand, I am "a sadder and a wiser man"!

I am quite surprised at you GF. You who usually are very well researched, but here you are wrong on this and so is Dodger. Like you I knew nothing about drug addiction until my American BF's addiction became obvious. Yes, he had been an addict before he met me, but I too did not recognize the signs. But unlike you and Dodger I did not go charging in like a white knight thinking all I have to do is restore self-esteem by making him feel good in the eyes of his family and restoring his confidence. I research everything out there and went to a Psychiatrist that was a specialist in addiction therapy. He laid out all of the programs that were out there and gave me information on what really worked and what did not. The most successful program out there is run by the Department of Veterans Affairs, which recently received an award at one of their hospitals for having a 46% success rate. They use drugs, counseling (cognitive therapy), reconnection with family, friends, employers and each program is tailored to the individual. There is no set time for treatment. It can be one year or three months depending on the addict and the addiction. Montana recently adopted a similar program and here is a news article on it.
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/p ... 9902170305 (http://www.greatfallstribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009902170305)

The VA, and treatment programs and programs like it work very well, AA has the same success rate as doing nothing. The VA does have AA meetings but limited and they modify some of the messages. I would suggest you look at the Penn and Teller representations on this tread or read this study to get the real facts on AA. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

My BF was not a veteran, but I did find a similar program and got him to go into it. Unfortunately, he was not one of the successes. He really did not want to quit. I spent a fortune for nothing, but the money did not hurt half as much as my broken heart. I don't know why, but I really loved that man. Following advice from my friends I let him go, and three years later he overdosed.

[Dodger]

GoneFishing Wrote:


I think this already exists, and I am not being facetious. The first four steps would be to understand the Four Noble Truths: Dukkha (suffering), Samudaya (greed that causes dukkha), Nirodha (the cure for dukkha, overcoming selfishness and craving - and addiction) and Magga (the middle way). The next eight would be the Eightfold Path: right belief, resolution, speech, action, living, effort, mindfulness and meditation. Nirodha would appear to be the key, unfortunately it is not that easy to find (and not available in tablet form).

That's amazing !!!... and I'm not being facetious either.

There appears to be an almost perfect alignment between the Western created 12 Steps to Recovery, and the Four Nobel Truths. Almost as if Doctor Bob, creator of the AA 12 Step Program, plagerized this information directly from the Pali Cannon. I'm not joking here in the least...maybe crazy...but not joking.

In the Pali version of the Discourse on "Turning the Wheel of the Darma", the Buddha taught his monks about the 12 turnings of the Wheel, and the relationship between each turn of the wheel and how it is tied (or aligned) directly to one of the four Nobel Truths. Each of the four Nobel Truths is aligned with three turns of the wheel, thus 12 Turns of the Wheel represents the truth about our suffering as humans, and more importantly, what we can do to stop the suffering. I know this sounds absolutely insane, but the similarities outlined in this Buddhist Discourse and the 12 Steps descibed in the western version of the same exact subject, are almost too close to be just coincidental.

I've already put everyone else to sleep with this, but this is fasciationg. The section in the Pali Canon which descibes the meaning of Turning the Wheel, and the relationship between the Turning the Wheel and the Four Nobel Truths, is, ironically, the chapter in Buddha's teachings that deals with..."Touching our Suffering", and then how to "Realize our Well Being".

I want to compliment you for this observation, as it simply never dawned on me.

I know this is going to sound insane as well, but it's very possible that the "methodology" that's missing from the Thai rehabilitation programs is already written for them. All someone has to do is extract this information from the Discourse I referred to and arrange this information in a logical structure focusing strickly on drug and alchohal addiction, and I believe there may be some positive results.

Now, if that theory isn't insane enough, how about this proposal. I'll be in LOS for two months starting 03 April. If you have some spare time on your hands and want to team up to write the Book and develop the Program, just send me a PM. and I'm not joking about this either.

Remember that old adage: "You're either part of the problem - or part of the solution."

very interesting, I have been in recovery from drug addiction for 16 years, I tried everything to stop, but could not.
so in the end I found NA and I went into treatment in the UK

I used to have a boy friend in recovery but he started to used again, I put up with that madness for 5 years.
then I kicked him out, and started to look why I was in love with an addict that lied stole and lots more.
I wanted to save him and change him but believe me we have no control over other people. It was up to him when he stopped not me.
There are many NA AA meetings in Thailand but not in Thai so it can be difficult.
So if you find out your bf is an addict, LEAVE HIM QUICK it can never work he not there and you can never trust an addict when they want to stop they will.

I believe one needs to look at why he is using drugs and has become an addict, but that's up to him to do for himself.
when my ex bf stopped he did it for me, so that was never going to work.

I try to remove myself quick from anyone that is using drugs, at 16 years clean I could used tomorrow so I keep myself safe. let him get on with his drug use and move away from him, there is nothing anyone can do to help

What I do now is give people the phone number of AA/ NA then it's up to them. I don't believe in god but it does work and I thank my higher power everyday for my new life. I'm still recovering but, now I do it without drugs. I'm still an addict but a clean one
Oh one more thing, don't believe anything that a using addicts says, they only say what you want to hear.
best wishes

I am quite surprised at you GF. You who usually are very well researched, but here you are wrong on this and so is Dodger.

Hang on a second, Khor tose - I don't follow what you think I am so wrong about! Remember, I met my ex over 20 years ago, and I too did not "go charging in like a white knight thinking all I have to do is restore self-esteem by making him feel good in the eyes of his family and restoring his confidence." 15 years ago, when I had never handled a fax machine let alone a mobile phone or the internet (so a "Google" was out of the question), or come across drug addiction in any form, the first thing I did was to go to the acknowledged experts in the country at the time (Thanyarak clinic); whatever one may think of them, and opinions are obviously divided, they were and (at least according to some sources) still are recognised as the leaders in the field in SE Asia. I also sought advice locally from a retired senior police officer who ran his own rehabilitation centre in Photisan, and from the government centre in Rayong, both of whom advised me to go to Thanyarak on the grounds that their centres mainly catered for older addicts on hard drugs, which he was not on. It had nothing to do with "making him feel good in the eyes of his family", who could have cared less, or "restoring his confidence", an excess of which was part of the problem.

If it is the success/failure rates you are referring to, while I accept that the VA may have an excellent programme in one hospital, where treatment takes up to a year, etc, I doubt if it would have been available 15 years ago to my Thai ex!! The recovery rate of 46% is amazingly high in comparison with clinics anywhere, but how long has the programme been going and, consequently, how long term is this? Your link does not give any specific details, other than to say that they admit they are only able to treat a very small fraction of the problem. I also cannot hep having some doubts as to the veracity of the claim - does the 46% success rate, for example, refer to all those who started the programme (including those who dropped out) or just those who lasted up to a year (in which case they were obviously pretty motivated)? There is probably a vast difference between the two, and if the course is open ended the succes rate is pretty well meaningless as the failures simply become works in progress.


I would suggest you look at the Penn and Teller representations on this tread or read this study to get the real facts on AA. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

The "Bullshit" programmes are actually being re-run on True Visions (UBC) in Thailand at the moment. While I find their magic very clever, I am far from impressed with their scientific studies or the unreasoned and unreasonable way they present their arguments - I am surprised you would treat them as an authority or objective. They edit those they interview mercilessly and give a totally one-sided and simplistic view, without even a pretence of balance - a few had some reasonable research, but their piece on Global Warming was simply so badly done and had so many holes in it that after that I could not be bothered to waste the time watching them.


That's amazing !!!... and I'm not being facetious either.....the similarities outlined in this Buddhist Discourse and the 12 Steps descibed in the western version of the same exact subject, are almost too close to be just coincidental.....it's very possible that the "methodology" that's missing from the Thai rehabilitation programs is already written for them.....

Yes, it is a bit weird - pretty well identical, except for the AA's God bothering bit! Very strange.


All someone has to do is extract this information from the Discourse I referred to and arrange this information in a logical structure focusing strickly on drug and alchohal addiction, and I believe there may be some positive results.

That, at least in theory, is what some of the temple clinics claim to have done. The problem, as we all agree, is that it all boils down to the motivation of the addict - if they genuinely want to recover at least there is a chance, but in many cases they are just attending rehab, in whatever form, to get people off their backs for at least a brief period.


If you have some spare time on your hands and want to team up to write the Book and develop the Program, just send me a PM. and I'm not joking about this either.

Tempting, particularly if you bring a decent tequila, but as I said "Were I able to do such a thing I would have done so already and been reaping the considerable financial rewards"!!

[joe552]

The use of the word God in the AA/NA programme refers to the belief that "a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity". Another phrase frequently used is "the god of my understanding". In other words, it is up to each individual to decide what that 'power' is - a Christian or Jewish God, the AA group itself, or whatever. A belief in a religious God is not required to practise the AA or NA programme.

[Khor tose]

GF, I am using Penn and Teller because what they say is in line with what I discovered. No comment on the orange paper was has plenty of citations? I will send to you the VA statistics as soon as I can copy and scan them, as most of this information is in journals and not on line. Well not on line for free.

Joe552. That "higher power can be anything" may fly in Oscar's home country, but this is exactly the same defense that the courts in the USA have repeatedly rejected. Not only have they called AA a religion, but one court said it was definitely a Christian orientated religion.

[joe552]

Sorry Khor tose, I don't know who the Oscar you refer to is, or his home country. Nor am I familiar with the 'one court' (presumably 1 judge?) which said AA was definitely a Christian religion. I am, however, familiar with the AA programme, and as a non-Christian, I would have to disagree with that 1 court. I don't understand why AA was in court in the first place.
The AA rooms I sat in had people of all religions and none - the challenge for each of us in our recovery was to find that 'higher power' which could restore us to sanity. This after accepting that our lives were unmanageable. As I said before, for some this WAS the God of their particular faith, for many it was the AA group of which they were members, for some it was the 'force of the universe' or whatever, but the beauty of it is, that an individual's concept of that 'higher power' never had to be explained or defended.
I am not trying to defend AA, since AA doesn't need defending - it works for the people it works for. I simply wanted to clarify that a belief in a God of a particular kind was a requirement. In my case, it certainly wasn't.

[Khor tose]

Sorry Khor tose, I don't know who the Oscar you refer to is, or his home country. Nor am I familiar with the 'one court' (presumably 1 judge?) which said AA was definitely a Christian religion. I am, however, familiar with the AA programme, and as a non-Christian, I would have to disagree with that 1 court. I don't understand why AA was in court in the first place.
The AA rooms I sat in had people of all religions and none - the challenge for each of us in our recovery was to find that 'higher power' which could restore us to sanity. This after accepting that our lives were unmanageable. As I said before, for some this WAS the God of their particular faith, for many it was the AA group of which they were members, for some it was the 'force of the universe' or whatever, but the beauty of it is, that an individual's concept of that 'higher power' never had to be explained or defended.
I am not trying to defend AA, since AA doesn't need defending - it works for the people it works for. I simply wanted to clarify that a belief in a God of a particular kind was a requirement. In my case, it certainly wasn't.

Sorry Joe, the "Oscar" was your avatar. I see that your are from Dublin and I am going to assume that you went to AA there. In the USA people are/were mandated to go to AA. All of the law suits were against the court, not against AA. I belong to the American Humanist Association and Americans for the Separation of Church and State, as well as two local Humanist groups. We, with the help in one case of the ACLU, brought these suits and won, and we are still bringing them. There has never been an appeal in any of these cases that went beyond a circuit court decisions, and what a lot of courts now do is just mandate some kind of addiction therapy, rather then mandating AA. Still many exceptions and we are working on it. I have no objections to AA as a private organization and would even support it with donations-poor results or not--provided they refused to accept people being forced into their program. I have been surprised to find out that many old timers would have no objections to this as they do not like the mandated coming to their meetings. In Seattle there are meetings that are closed to the mandated. I do not know if this is true in the rest of the State or the US.

I have heard that AA in Europe is very different then in the USA. However, in America it is definitely considered a religion. It starts with the lords prayer, and members often are given the Serenity Prayer (Oddly, different then the original German prayer). The meetings ends with a prayer, and Amazing Grace is almost a theme song. If you have a chance look at the Orange Paper I cited or check out the Penn and Teller presentation you may get an idea of what AA is like in the US.

I have read many of your post and know you to be an intelligent and well educated man. I am willing to bet you know about the Oxford Group, which reached it Zenith just prior to WWII. Two of its members here in the US were Bill W, and Bob Smith. The Oxford Group truly believed that this would be a better world if Christianity was in every aspect of our lives, and that to achieve a perfect world all we had to do was find and elect Christian leaders, and turn our lives over to God. One of the reasons the group died was because the model leader they cited was no less then Adolf Hitler.

In case you are not familiar with this group here is a Wiki reference. (Not very good). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Group

I really did spend way to much time citing AA's failures, but I wish to assure you that I would never put down anyone trying to cope with addiction that turns to AA for help--whether or not I like it. I really did love my addicted BF. What I am down on and will always be down on is forcing people to participate is something that to me, the courts and many others IS clearly a religion. No neither you or anyone needs to defend a program that helps them. You are living proof that it has value, but someone does need to defend an unconstitutional action that may cause more harm to a percentage of addicts then the percentage it does help. Remember 15% of us in America claim no religion and it is even higher in Europe (mainland). Thus the source of my anger against AA.

[dab69]

I can recommend many books that support and amplify on the views above but for a quick take this is what I would recommend. Showtime ran a program for three years by Penn and Teller where they exposed myths, fakes, etc. One of these show was on 12 step bullshit. It is in three parts on utube and here are the Url's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tPNgHrIkgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwx2P5L ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwx2P5LJgk&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjpOsE3 ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PjpOsE3xoY&feature=related)


Aunty I just lost all respect for you as a scientist, and I do not know what your argument with Smiles is, but if you buy AA then you are an idiot not a scientist.


dearly loved and favorited the links to youtube.
most "psychobabble" is thinly veiled religion/brainwashing fro the weak minded
and behavior modification is much worse.
read "Journal of Early Intervention" hidden away in
most universities, NOT to be checked out (removed)
and only for psych "students"

[Dodger]

Khor Tose Wrote;


I belong to the American Humanist Association and Americans for the Separation of Church and State, as well as two local Humanist groups.

Well, that explains it.

More likely, you are an athiest who is hell bend on revenging your own personal sufferings by casting stones at those who have found, or who are seeking to find happiness in their lives where the word "God" is mentioned.

People are still trying to trace the roots of the Serentity Prayer, where the roots have already been traced back to ancient times, far before the existence of Germany or any AA formations. The very first thing a person is told at an AA beginners meeting, is that they do not have to believe in "God" as God is defined by any religion, for the mere fact that AA is not a religion, nor is anyone expected to subscribe to that notion. The refernce to "God" in that ancient prayer that I'm talking about is translated to the new comer as being anything or anyone he or she choses, as a means of getting the person out of themselve so the recovery process can begin. Simple as that.

When people in the U.S. receive court orders to attend AA meetings, it is almost always offered as an option, with the alternative option being a jail sentence. It does't take a wizard to understand how much good a jail sentence is going to do, so most view this action by the courts as being a positive step, versus some kind of plot to brainwash people into believing in a God, as you and those meaningless organizations you belong to do. The word "meaningless" in this context, can be interpreted as meaning "without adding any value."

I would be much more impressed if a persons efforts were aimed at trying to help with a solution, versus spinning their wheels by attacking people who are trying to make a difference. Regardless if the success rate of organizations such as AA and NA appear small when throwing statistics around, a small percentage of a large population results in a big number. Meaning there are tens of thousands of alchohal and drug addicts in the U.S. who credit AA and/or NA for saving their lives, many of whom claim openly not to believe in a "God." Thus, the claims that you and those ridiculous clubs you belong to have absolutely no foundation.

Furthermore, if you have ever had to deal directly with a hard core alchoholic or drug addict you would have already come to the conclusion, that the word "God" at a time when his life is nothing more than a hell on earth, is not the worst thing to his ears.

Now, if you really want to contribute to a worthy cause, take all those bills out of your wallet with the words inscripted "In God We Trust" and donate them to your local AA/NA chapter. They may not believe in God, but they can sure use the extra bucks.

[Khor tose]

Khor Tose Wrote;


I belong to the American Humanist Association and Americans for the Separation of Church and State, as well as two local Humanist groups.

Well, that explains it.

More likely, you are an athiest who is hell bend on revenging your own personal sufferings by casting stones at those who have found, or who are seeking to find happiness in their lives where the word "God" is mentioned.
People are still trying to trace the roots of the Serentity Prayer, where the roots have already been traced back to ancient times, far before the existence of Germany or any AA formations.

I thought so, a Bible Thumper. You have actually helped prove my point. By the way I used to support the Salvation Army which has helped far more people return to sobriety then AA. I stopped when they adopted anti-gay policies.

[Khor tose]

dearly loved and favorited the links to youtube.
most "psychobabble" is thinly veiled religion/brainwashing fro the weak minded
and behavior modification is much worse.
read "Journal of Early Intervention" hidden away in
most universities, NOT to be checked out (removed)
and only for psych "students"

Not to do as other do
It so sad that we
No need for help to be given
The child raised right to be.

Hide the books no more
Prisons we could empty
Do as others do
Stop the insanity

Scandinavia is so far ahead
Addict there are few
Health is for the many
All to be loved anew

AN / NN does work but only if you want it to work a day at a time It's been ok for me this last 16 years
I'm a very grateful recovering addict.
I would have died many year ago with on the help and love I got from NA

[Dodger]

Khore Tose Wrote:


I thought so, a Bible Thumper.

Wrong again. I thump the Pali Cannon...I am a Buddhist.

Khore Tose Wrote:


I thought so, a Bible Thumper.

Wrong again. I thump the Pali Cannon...I am a Buddhist.

Oh, God.

[Bob]

a Bible Thumper.

Speaking of Thumpers, you've picked up a stalking rabbit, Dodger. Is it your turn or my turn to make the stew?

[francois]

[quote="Gone Fishing"]=
Agreed, 100% - which is why I agree with you and Khor tose on this - if you are involved, and want to be, give it what you think is your best shot and if that fails then get out of it, swallowing any feelings of failure / pride/obstinacy / guilt, etc.

I wish I had done this with an addict friend. But I hung on to long. Only after I "got out of it" did he make a change. His final choice was quit the drugs or jail. Oddly he never did enter a rehab but needed a structured, supervised program by a probation agent. Maybe most important was a job that he enjoyed doing

Now, if that theory isn't insane enough, how about this proposal. I'll be in LOS for two months starting 03 April. If you have some spare time on your hands and want to team up to write the Book and develop the Program, just send me a PM. and I'm not joking about this either.

Dodger, I was going to reply by PM, but in this case I couldn't see any reason to say it privately.

I am flattered by your offer to meet but it is a little unlikely as I have not been to a Pattaya bar in years. Despite that, I have corresponded with and met at least one of those with whom I regularly disagree here, with whom we would appear to have very little in common (and with whom I also disagreed on many subjects in person) and we actually got on very well, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

I meant what I said when I wrote that I enjoy reading your posts - I genuinely do, and although I often disagree (usually pretty strongly and pretty bluntly) with your conclusions I respect you posting about things honestly, as you see them, warts and all.

What I respect most is that you never appear to hold a grudge (at least here) and are prepared to discuss each topic separately, on its own merits, even with those who have rubbished you elsewhere and to agree/disagree with no pre-conceived bias. I take my hat off to you.


Having said that, just in case you think that I am going soft, that does not mean that I no longer think you often write "a lot of bollocks", as one poster put it!

I wish I had done this with an addict friend. But I hung on to long. Only after I "got out of it" did he make a change.

Francois,

what is becoming clearer is just how many of us have not only been in the same position but made the same mistakes and suffered for them. Although I have mentioned my own experience previously elsewhere I thought it was an isolated incident, and had Dodger not given details of his experience I would not have brought it up. If this thread only helps one person (addict or addict's friend) then it is worth it and it puts the petty sniping (which I am as much a part of as anyone else) into perspective.

[Brad the Impala]

Didn't Hedda also report a drug addict boyfriend in the past? Although it was never clarified whether the condition existed before they met, or whether Hedda herself, and the budgie, might have been contributory factors in it's onset.

[Dodger]

Gone Fishing Wrote:


you never appear to hold a grudge (at least here) and are prepared to discuss each topic separately, on its own merits, even with those who have rubbished you elsewhere and to agree/disagree with no pre-conceived bias.

Thank you for the compliment.

Grudges do no more than decay a persons soul, and contribute absolutely nothing to the quality of a persons life, or to the quality of the relationships he has with others. I also view "grudges" as a prime indicator of an emotional deficiency in an individuals personality. Sometimes as unappealing as wearing black socks with sandals...555.

I was "rubbished" by one poster for making a mistake regarding my statement that there were no NA Meetings in LOS. If it weren't for that mistake, I wouldn't have been informed that there in fact were NA Meetings in LOS, or linked to an NA site which provided evan more valuable information. Now, do I hold a grudge against the person who "rubbished" me, or take the information as a gift. I prefer the later.

BTW...If I didn't respect your viewpoints and your ability to be objective, regardless if we agree on all things or not, I wouldn't have the interest in interacting with you, as I have.


mai pen rai

[joe552]

I've gone back and re-read the original post. The essence of it for me was protecting oneself from the damage that a relationship with an addict can do. Try to help by all means, but realise there will come a time when you might have to walk away.
As someone who has struggled with alcohol for many years, this is good advice. It was only when my friends had given up on me that I began to look at my behaviour. 'Enabling' an addict, by providing unconditional support, whether material or emotional, is counter-productive.
Thanks GF for raising the issue - at last a thread worth contributing to. And thanks also to those who spoke so openly about their own experiences as addicts or their relationships with addicts.

[Dodger]

Bob Wrote:


Speaking of Thumpers, you've picked up a stalking rabbit, Dodger. Is it your turn or my turn to make the stew?


I'm inclined to let him slide this time Bob, as he now thinks I'm God...555

.... as unappealing as wearing black socks with sandals...555.

Please don't tell me you think white socks are acceptable!!!


I've gone back and re-read the original post.....Thanks GF for raising the issue - at last a thread worth contributing to.

Thanks for taking the time to re-read it and not just dismissing it because of who started it - after all, even I must be able to make one worthwhile thread! And, seriously, thanks for giving the view from "the other side".

[bao-bao]

A few thoughts on this multi-page thread that may (or may not) be a help to someone. These are mainly my own opinions, of course, but most are based on direct observations in the program:

1. I myself have been clean and sober with the help of AA for twenty years. IтАЩve heard thousands of different stories and have seen just as many successes and failures, but success depends on the individual's ability to help themselves with the tools of AA / NA. It's a smorgasboard of tools: take what you want, use what works for you and leave the rest. However, there are decades of success behind the basic 12 steps.

2. There is almost NO hope of long term sobriety unless the person wishes to stop for themselves. Fear, intimidation, quitting for your job, the courts, a loved one or any other reason is almost always futile.

3. Enabling an addict of any kind is asking for failure at best, and it goes downhill from there.

4. In the steps of AA and NA the word тАЬGodтАЭ is meant to mean a higher power of the personтАЩs own understanding, be that a chair, their home group, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Pantheism or whatever flavor of тАЬhigher powerтАЭ the person finds as a comfort. The point is that they themselves are powerless to control the тАЬdiseaseтАЭ and need the help of тАЬa power greater than themselvesтАЭ.

5. While someone may be able to cite examples of what they feel AA or NA are in the US or abroad, they can not possibly speak for the organizations or groups as a whole. For example, each AA group is completely autonomous but all are suggested to follow the basic twelve steps, traditions and concepts as guidelines.

6. Atheists have just as much success with AA/NA as everyone else. I myself detest the damage done by most all organized religion (especially Christianity) but DO believe in a power greater than myself.

7. NOBODY is ever тАЬcuredтАЭ in AA or NA. Success is measured in days, months and years. Just as youтАЩd become flabby again after ten years of daily gym workouts if you quit your exercise routines, if you stop тАЬworking your programтАЭ in AA or NA тАУ whatever that is that works for you тАУ odds are almost certain that youтАЩll go back out. Nobody тАЬgraduatesтАЭ.

8. People who have been hurt by their own failure with 12-step programs (or have been hurt by the failure of someone they care about) are often bitter about it and speak poorly of the programs - such as weтАЩve seen in this thread - but they are of course entitled to their opinions.

9. There are many AA and NA meetings in Thailand; IтАЩve attended them myself. The sad thing is there are not nearly as many in Thai as would be helpful, in my opinion.

My apologies in advance to board members who are also members of these programs for not maintaining my own personal anonymity in this case (as is suggested) but sometimes I feel the ends justify the means and over-ride the principle of тАЬattraction rather than promotionтАЭ for me.

As to the original post: my own personal stand with addicts of any kind is to do what I can (within reason) to help give them the tools to help themselves and then back off and hope they choose to help themselves, which is тАУ as noted in #2 above тАУ all anyone can really do.

тАжand donтАЩt you feel sorry for atheists? I mean, who do they call out to when theyтАЩre getting really good head?? :cheers:

[anakot]

Great post Bao Bao.

Its been useful to read Dodger's and GF's posts.

Whatever one thinks of the various programmes, and as usual opinions are divided on their merits although so far all those who have posted who have used AA/NA are positive about it, which must prove something, what appears undeniable is that different programmes work for different people.

While, statistically, AA/NA's results may be no better than those managing to rehabilitate themselves (and I do not necessarily accept Penn and Teller's bullshit on this) this does not mean that those whose lives have been saved by AA/NA would have been able to do so without their help - far from it. Even the strongest of us needs physical and emotional support at one time or another.

On the other hand while it is possible that the VA programme may be the best in the world, statistically (and I am yet to be convinced that their results will stand the test of time), it is unlikely that any programme that requires up to a year of full-time residential supervision and care will ever be a possibility for the vast majority of addicts.

Some programmes depend more on family or friends, others on religion, others on therapy, or a combination - the only common factor is that they all require genuine commitment from the addict more than anything else.

All we can do, as either addicts or their friends, is make the best of what is available. What I had not realized until now, even though with 20/20 hindsight it should have been obvious, is that sometimes by trying to do what is best for our friends and to be part of the solution we are actually being part of the problem, and at times the best we can do for all concerned is to walk away no matter how difficult it may be, or how guilty or weak it may make you feel.

[Dodger]

Bao-Bao Wrote:


Enabling an addict of any kind is asking for failure at best, and it goes downhill from there.

I couldn't agree more, and Bao-Bao, your comments on this thread are very much appreciated.

Ironically, during the course of the last few days, my bf has decided to pull up roots (in Pattaya) and head back home to the farm. Apparently, at least from what he's been trying to tell me, he's had enough and ready to call it quits. He's referring to his love affair with yaba in this context.

Following a five month period of being clean from yaba, he relapsed, only this time I did nothing to try to stop him. Once I became aware of the fact that he had been using again I simply detached myself from him and let him run his own ground. That was much easier said than done.

At first, he threatened to leave his family village and return to the streets of Pattaya if I ended it with him, knowing that this would cause me much pain. When his threat fell on deaf ears, he returned to the streets, only to find that he was alone with himself. No more suport system in place whatsoever. His parents and family members were shocked and terribly disappointed, his bf (me) was willing to call it quits rather than be dragged down that tortuous road again, and from what I understand, evan his yaba using friends back in Pattayaland were shocked that he was willing to throw away everything he claimed he wanted in life, just to return to his addiction. I'm making that comment based on messages I've received from two of his friends in Pattaya since his return.

If I would have responded to him the way he originally intended, I would have been doing nothing more than enabling him. By detaching from him, much in the same manner that his family did, he was allowed the privilage of seeing the bottom of his barrel first-hand without any filters.

I'm starting to understand that an addict searches for, and needs "enablers", in the same manner that they search for and need their drug of their choice.

He phoned his parents yesterday as well and apparently they will accept him back. I haven't spoken to them myself, so don't know their real position on this and will just have to wait and see. They are good people and love Su very much, but have been pulled down this path before, more times than I have The results I think will have to be in Su's actions - not just his words. I, on the other hand, am not so sure about the future. I refused to evan send him bus money to return home, and simply told him that he found a way to get there - now he needs to find a way to get back.

I'm also beginning to view addicts as people who are living deep within their own fog and totally blind to their own blindness, making their words almost meaningless, until the point in which they steer their boat out of the fog. Most important, is the fact that they have to steer their own boat. Others can try to calm the waters...push some of the logs out of the boats path and direct some sunlight in their direction, but ultimately, the steering part can only be done by them. I guess this is why the recovery failure rates, evan with excellent programs such as AA/NA, are so high.

I received an e:mail message from him this morning informing me that his mother was wiring him the bus money so he could return home. I believe that he is returning home, but seriously doubt that he didn't have the 627 baht needed for the bus ticket. This is probably just a ploy to get me to believe that that he was being a "good boy" during his stay in Pattaya, which, under the circumstances, I seriously doubt. In either case, the fact that he's willing to return home is a start. Now, with the support of his family, a few doses of majic potion from the monks, and a good tail wind, his boat may just steer itself out of the fog, but this time, I won't find myself trying to steer from the helm.

So, what does all this crap mean. Well, to me it means that that there is a very fine line between supporting an addict and enabling him. The one side of the line is easy to do, although destined to failure. The other side is the most difficult task in the world, although, at least according to all these statistics we're throwing around, has a 20% possibly of working.

[joe552]

Ah Dodger, I really feel for you at this time. You're obviously involved, but it sounds like one of those time for another AA slogan 'Let go and Let God'. From what you've written, there is little more you can do. If he goes back to his family, maybe he will stay drug freel. The addict is the person responsible for their addiction - only the addict can make the necessary changes.
I do sympathise, but it sounds like you've done as much as you can do.

[Dodger]

Thanks Joe,

I'm afraid you're right.

This has been a tough period for me. My mother passed away last January, right about the time that Su decided to go bonkers again. I have to travel constantly to do my work and have bit clobbered by every major storm in thye U.S. from a major blizzard in Denver to freezing rain and downed power lined in Louisville, and I could use a break.

I'll be returning to LOS in 3 days, and right now all I want is a few cold bottles of Singha and a cute boy next to me, preferably one who doesn't speak or comprehend a word of English, and I'll be just fine.

[Aunty]

Bao-Bao Wrote:


Enabling an addict of any kind is asking for failure at best, and it goes downhill from there.

I'm also beginning to view addicts as people who are living deep within their own fog and totally blind to their own blindness, making their words almost meaningless, until the point in which they steer their boat out of the fog. Most important, is the fact that they have to steer their own boat. Others can try to calm the waters...push some of the logs out of the boats path and direct some sunlight in their direction, but ultimately, the steering part can only be done by them. I guess this is why the recovery failure rates, even with excellent programs such as AA/NA, are so high.

What do the alkies/addicts say? It's only when they are sick and tired of being sick and tired that they are ready for change, or something like that.

[Khor tose]

Bao-Bao Wrote:


Enabling an addict of any kind is asking for failure at best, and it goes downhill from there.

I'm also beginning to view addicts as people who are living deep within their own fog and totally blind to their own blindness, making their words almost meaningless, until the point in which they steer their boat out of the fog. Most important, is the fact that they have to steer their own boat. Others can try to calm the waters...push some of the logs out of the boats path and direct some sunlight in their direction, but ultimately, the steering part can only be done by them. I guess this is why the recovery failure rates, even with excellent programs such as AA/NA, are so high.

What do the alkies/addicts say? It's only when they are sick and tired of being sick and tired that they are ready for change, or something like that.

They say, You are not going to quit until you've reached bottom. Unfortunately bottom for some is death.