Smoking and Yabba

[MARK]

A question from somebody that should know the answer but I donтАЩt can any body tell me if you kiss a boy that smokes Yabba can you smell it on his breath, similar smell to that of a boy sniffing glue or not does any body know. :scratch: :study:

Glue of course is easy to smell. Yaba is not so obvious.

But there are other signs. The boy is usually quite hyped up then afterwards will sleep for a long time, sometimes days!

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

how could you possibly smell yaba on a person's breath ?

It's a mild form of speed.

If you are concerned about the boys that work from you, I am sure you know that urine test kits for all types of drugs are available commercially over the web. Just google "home drug test kits".

No there is no smell on the breath, but if he was normally a nice quiet guy and fun, then if you say something that up sets him, he turns like Michael Jackson at the end of thriller, you will know.

He will not be able to sleep all night and as said, when he does sleep, he will sleep for 12 hours, even though many Thai boy can with out Ya ba..

Yes you can get a test for him from most PharmacyтАЩs, the fact he is going to be tested or thinks he is will deter him form seeing you when he is on the drug.

[MARK]

If you are concerned about the boys that work from you, I am sure you know that urine test kits for all types of drugs are available commercially over the web. Just google "home drug test kits".

Well thanks for the info but sorry to say I do not kiss all the staff the work for me nether to I mix business with pleasure.
The staffs at the Krazy are urine tested approximately every six weeks with a bulk buy kit itтАЩs cheaper.
And no if I do find some body out side of my work place I like I donтАЩt ask them to piss in a bottle after 3 days if I thought they may be staying in my home longer and I was coserned I would consider asking them to take a test and not just for Yabba.
Ps you buy the kit at any pharmacy for 500bht to test 100 people or you can buy a single
Test kit 100bht Google that.
But thatтАЩs not really the question I asked was it.

I can't tell from your tone whether you are being an asshole or not -- so I will give you the benefit of the doubt this time. But I was sincerely trying to help you. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the tone of your response, and we'll leave it at that.

[MARK]

A question from somebody that should know the answer but I donтАЩt can any body tell me if you kiss a boy that smokes Yabba can you smell it on his breath, similar smell to that of a boy sniffing glue or not does any body know. :scratch: :study:

Well if Yabba does not leave a smell I am thinking it must be a glue problem, but you can correct me if I am wrong the boy is 20 and I was under the impression glue was more of a street boy/younger persons thing. Dont mind being corrected if I am wrong.

[MARK]

I can't tell from your tone whether you are being an asshole or not -- so I will give you the benefit of the doubt this time. But I was sincerely trying to help you. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the tone of your response, and we'll leave it at that.


Beach Bunny on Fri 13 Mar, 2009 2:28 am
If you are concerned about the boys that work from you,


Then perhaps I miss understood your post and that you where under the impression that I kissed every body that worked for me.
And yes I did think you where being sarcastic. I apologize if I miss took your post.
Mark

You did misunderstand my response, and I accept your apology.

I did not assume that you need to kiss someone to smell their breath, any more than you do to tell if someone has been drinking. All you need to do usually is to talk to them up close.

The word "yaba" means "madness drug". It's a mix of methamphetamine and caffeine. Mostly comes from Burma I think.

It used to be called "yaa maa" (horse medicine, as in makes you as strong as a horse), until the Thai government -- thinking that it needed a more negative name -- started promoting the use of the current one. This goes back about 15-20 years. In case anyone is interested.

[Dodger]

Mark,

Yaba produces a distinc odor if smoked, and yes, you can smell this in a persons breath. If a lot of time passes, or they have eaten a meal subsequent to smoking it, the odor would be almost impossible to detect.

Some of the boys smoke it - although most just pop the pill, in either case, the best advice for a bar owner such as yourself, would be to administer the test which you can pick up at any local pharmacy.

Your mamasan, or bar manager, knows exactly which boys use yaba and which ones don't. Not that this serves any real value, as most would never reveal this to a farang.

Rapid weight loss is another very noticable side-effect, especially if the boy becomes addicted, which , unfortunately, is a very high risk factor.

My bf (or, quite possibly x bf), is an addict. He informed me that well over 50% of the working boys in Sunee Plaza either use yaba on an occaisional basis, or are fully addicted and use it on a dailybasis if funds are available. Yaba goes for 300 baht per pill, although can be purchased for as low as 120 baht if the user is friends with one of the local distributors. The main distributors (as there are numerous mules) purchae yaba in mass quantities for as low as 40 baht.

A policeman friend of mine who monitors the drugs in South Pattaya said there is a small amount of Opium in Ya Baa, this is what makes them addicted.

ThatтАЩs why they have to burn it to get the full effect. Sounds nasty, but then again IтАЩm sure all the whiskey I have drunk over the years is not any better. :drunken:

[mj_87-old]

Mark,

Yaba produces a distinc odor if smoked, and yes, you can smell this in a persons breath. If a lot of time passes, or they have eaten a meal subsequent to smoking it, the odor would be almost impossible to detect.

Some of the boys smoke it - although most just pop the pill, in either case, the best advice for a bar owner such as yourself, would be to administer the test which you can pick up at any local pharmacy.

Your mamasan, or bar manager, knows exactly which boys use yaba and which ones don't. Not that this serves any real value, as most would never reveal this to a farang.

Rapid weight loss is another very noticable side-effect, especially if the boy becomes addicted, which , unfortunately, is a very high risk factor.

My bf (or, quite possibly x bf), is an addict. He informed me that well over 50% of the working boys in Sunee Plaza either use yaba on an occaisional basis, or are fully addicted and use it on a dailybasis if funds are available. Yaba goes for 300 baht per pill, although can be purchased for as low as 120 baht if the user is friends with one of the local distributors. The main distributors (as there are numerous mules) purchae yaba in mass quantities for as low as 40 baht.

In agreement with Dodger -

(I lived in San Francisco for several years. The city has a huge crystal meth problem. If Yabba is the same or similar to crystal then these comments apply.)

Crystal Meth has a distinct smell. It is hard for me to describe. It is an industrial chemical smell. Not a disinfectant smell but some sort of industrial chemical odor. Not surprising as crystal is made with ephedra, lye, amonia, etc..

My experience was that I could smell the crystal on people who smoked it for hours afteward. I think it got in their clothes, hair, etc...

[mj_87-old]

Mark,

Yaba produces a distinc odor if smoked, and yes, you can smell this in a persons breath. If a lot of time passes, or they have eaten a meal subsequent to smoking it, the odor would be almost impossible to detect.

Some of the boys smoke it - although most just pop the pill, in either case, the best advice for a bar owner such as yourself, would be to administer the test which you can pick up at any local pharmacy.

Your mamasan, or bar manager, knows exactly which boys use yaba and which ones don't. Not that this serves any real value, as most would never reveal this to a farang.

Rapid weight loss is another very noticable side-effect, especially if the boy becomes addicted, which , unfortunately, is a very high risk factor.

My bf (or, quite possibly x bf), is an addict. He informed me that well over 50% of the working boys in Sunee Plaza either use yaba on an occaisional basis, or are fully addicted and use it on a dailybasis if funds are available. Yaba goes for 300 baht per pill, although can be purchased for as low as 120 baht if the user is friends with one of the local distributors. The main distributors (as there are numerous mules) purchae yaba in mass quantities for as low as 40 baht.

In agreement with Dodger -

(I lived in San Francisco for several years. The city has a huge crystal meth problem. If Yabba is the same or similar to crystal then these comments apply.)

Crystal Meth has a distinct smell. It is hard for me to describe. It is an industrial chemical smell. Not a disinfectant smell but some sort of industrial chemical odor. Not surprising as crystal is made with ephedra, lye, amonia, etc..

My experience was that I could smell the crystal on people who smoked it for hours afteward. I think it got in their clothes, hair, etc... As for their breath - I am not sure - I swear though I knew people who smoked crystal and you could smell it coming out of their pores when they were sweating.

[MARK]

Thank you all for the information very handy. The bar not a problem it is as pointed out easy to test or Yabba and you can usually tell which boys are on it just by watching there work pattern, bit more difficult if you just met some one you like which is not very often in my case. ItтАЩs not a glue problem and is the faint smell left over from Yabba told the boy I was going to piss test him and he told me he was smoking. So I think its good buy on that one to many problems at work to worry about people in my home as well shame I quite liked him. :idea: :idea: :idea:

[Dodger]

Mark, I think you were wise to cut the cord with the boy quickly as you apparently did.

I wasn't as wise and allowed him to take me on a rollar-coaster ride as a result. His parents bailed him out of the monkey house the first time. I bailed his ass out the second time. Now, when he knows that three strikes and he's out in the Thai legal system, is back on the streets with yaba running through his bloodstream yet again. The next time he's caught will result in 5-15 years in the slammer with no possibility of bailing out.

This is no different from the effects of drug addiction in the West or anywhere else. As much as you like them (or, love them) you just have to let them go. Not easily said or done, just a very sad reality.

[ceejay]

Some of you may have visited the website "Gor's World"

http://www.gorsworld.com/

"Gor" is a lesson in what happens on a third arrest - he got 6 years (later reduced to 3, so he is due out in September this year)

His story continues to be told on "Thai Prison Life"

http://www.thaiprisonlife.com/

Essential reading, by the way, for anyone who thinks its clever to mess with drugs in Thailand.

Incidentally, I found "Gor's Life" through another website "Learning Thai the Easy Way"

http://www.learningthai.com/index.php

Which is a pretty good resource for free, but misleading in one respect. It ain't easy for me. :tongue:

[Dodger]

Gor is an interesting man (boy).

I'm assuming from the story about Gor's imprisonment, that he was caught using yaba, versus selling it. As, from what I understand, the penalty for repeat users can range anywhere from 5-15 years depending on circumstances, although if person is caught with 5 or more yaba pills or tabs on his posession, he is classified as a distributor (seller) and can literally get life imprisonment.

Up North, near the border of Miramar and Chiang Mai, the soldiers have the legal right to shoot and kill distributors who have more than just 5 pills or tabs on their posession. Scary stuff ! From what I understand, this is the reason why local sellers never carry more than 4 pills or tabs on their posession at any one given time.

Unfortunately rehabilitation centers for drug addicts are extremely limited, with no rehabilitation resources in Pattaya whatsoever...go figure!

I witnessed first-hand how Thai families deal with this. They take their child to the local monk for a series of blessings, which frankly, is about as effective as a screen door in a submarine.

Up North, near the border of Miramar and Chiang Mai.

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

[Bob]

Brilliant. Simply brilliant.

Not sure what your problem is with that, bunnybreath. Didn't you know that Chiangmai is also a province and Burma borders on many provinces? Or are you one of the rubes that thinks that "Chiangmai"only means the city?

Edited to actually finish the friggin sentence. Guess I was in a hurry this morning. :reindeer:

The country is Myanmar -- not Miramar, which sounds like some antique cinema.

Chiang Mai has no border with Myanmar (or Miramar).

[Dodger]

Mr. Bunny,

Sorry about this spelling error. I have a tendency to spell Thai words as they sound.

You may want to inform the Thai and Myanmar Governments that, in fact, their countries do not border along the Chiang Mai Province so they can remove that old bridge.

Unfortunately rehabilitation centers for drug addicts are extremely limited, with no rehabilitation resources in Pattaya whatsoever...go figure!

This is as untrue now as it was just over one year ago ( yaba-and-the-boys-you-love-t13799.html?hilit=rehabilitation (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/yaba-and-the-boys-you-love-t13799.html?hilit=rehabilitation) ).

At that time there were ".. 772 public and private voluntary drug treatment centres nationwide (which) report directly to the Office of the Narcotics Control Board (and) 689 hospitals / centres (608 run by the government and 81 by NGOs)".

As I also pointed out then, Thanyarak Clinic was cited by APAIC (the Asia & Pacific Amphetamine Type Stimulants Information Centre, of the UN Office on Drugs & Crime) as "the drug treatment focal point for South East Asia". I provided links, addresses, and contact details including a telephone number for them (for anyone who would like to follow this up, for whatever reason, the details are still correct). You preferred not to do so, describing my contradicting you as "an ass grabbing contest", chose not to make any contact with the rehabilitation centres, and opted to rely instead on family and the local temple - as I pointed out then "even Thanyarak rate their success rate as no better than 20 - 25%, but that is considerably better than temples 5 - 15%, or families (1 - 5%)".

I am sorry, but not surprised, to hear that Su' s rehabilitation has failed. This is not aimed at you personally, however should anyone be in the same predicament and seriously want to do something to help and to give someone the best chance of rehabilitation then I would strongly advise them to seek some of the expert advice and help available in Thailand rather than just dismiss it out of hand.

[Dodger]

GoneFishing,

I appreciate the information (links) you provided back then, although your assumption that I didn't follow-up on the process of rehabilitation couldn't be father off target.

The drug rehabilitation centers in Thailand have such a high failure rate in their current state, that they are literally a waste of time. This is not new news to anyone who has dome their investigation, or those who have attended these so-called rehabilitation centers.

These places have fallen under scrutiny for their total failure in effectiveness due to their military-like methodologies, where they believe that doing physical early morning drills and standing next to your bed at attention is the road to recovery. Those who attend these centers return to the streets and their drug habits as fast as they are released. There is not one rehabilitation center in Thailand, including Thailand's largest drug rehabilitation center, Bangkok's Thanyarak Hospital which I also visited, which provides a structured program for recovery following any of the successful benchmarks of programs in the West which have proven success rates.

You know how skilled those Thai carperters and electricians are don't you. You know, the guys who use ktichen chairs and cracked boards for a scapold, or connect high voltage power lines using uninsulated pliers. Well, that's exactly the same skill level you have working in these places called rehabilitation centers, and they are no more effective than visiting the local monk for a dose of majic potion and the reciting of a few mantras.

Mr. Bunny,

Sorry about this spelling error. I have a tendency to spell Thai words as they sound.

You may want to inform the Thai and Myanmar Governments that, in fact, their countries do not border along the Chiang Mai Province so they can remove that old bridge.

1) "Myanmar" is not a Thai word;
2) "Myanmar" is pronounced exactly as it is spelled. It is not pronounced anything near "Miramar".
3) Which bridge are you referring to, the one at Mae Sai, perhaps? I'm unaware of any border crossings between Chiang Mai and Myanmar. Perhaps there's one near the old Miramar Cinema.

[Dodger]

Mr. Bunny,

If you go around pronouncing "Myanmar" like it's spelled, good luck getting there.

Many people who visit Myanmar simply walk across the road at the Mae Sot/Myawaddy Myanmar border crossing when entering, and opt to cross the bridge over the Moei River to get back into Thailand.

The bridge over the Moei River by-the-way connects Myanmar to Chiang Mai Province Thailand.

Now, back in your hole...I've got work to do.

The bridge over the Moei River by-the-way connects Myanmar to Chiang Mai Province Thailand.



Mae Sot is in Chiang Mai? I'll have to notify the publishers of every map every published, as well as the governor of Tak Province. He will be quite interested to know that he has lost a city.

[Dodger]

Well Mr. Bunny, I see that I've kept you busy today doing your home work.

Yes, you are correct. Mai Sot actually falls within the province of Tak. Frankly, until looking this up on my map, I never evan heard of Tak.. Oh well, live and learn I guess.

Are you still confused about that really big province called Chiang Mai which borders Myanmar? Come on...come on...I know you can do it.

Chiang Mai and Myanmar have no border crossing -- that is what I was referring to.

Funny how someone that thinks Mae Sot is in Chiang Mai, and that Myanmar is spelled (and pronounced) "Miramar", is coming back for more punishment. Classic!

[Bob]

Chiang Mai and Myanmar have no border crossing -- that is what I was referring to.


Yea, nice attempt at misdirection, carrotbreath.....
What you said, of course, was: "Chiang Mai has no border with Myanmar." And, of course, it does. A significant number of Thai troops along that fairly long border area are there hoping to interrupt the ilegal crossings by drug smugglers and/or Burmese simply looking for work and/or political refuge.

Hey, look...it's the work permit expert back again for more punishment.

[Dodger]

Mr. Bunny Wrote Earlier:

[/quote]Chiang Mai has no border with Myanmar[quote]

Mr. Bunny Writes Now:

[quote]Chiang Mai and Myanmar have no border crossing - that is what I am referring to.[quote]


Mr. Bunny, you get an "A" on your spelling quiz, but fail your exam due to improper sentence structuring. Don't be dissapointed though, George Bush failed this exam for the same reason and went on to be President.

Nice try at obfuscation from the man who claimed that:

a) the country to the northwest of Thailand is called "Miramar";
b) that the word "Myanmar" is a Thai word;
c) that while it may be spelled "Myanmar", it is actually pronounced "Miramar";
d) that no one will understand you if you pronounce it as written;
e) that there is a bridge between "Miramar" and Chiang Mai, at the city of Mae Sot.

I repeat: brilliant. Simply brilliant.

[Dodger]

Sorry Mr. Bunny, but that defocusing tactic of yours won't work here either.

Your attempt to insult Bob in retaliation for being called on the carpet was just another interesting view of your true personality.

You've dug your own hole, (which you commonly do,) so I suggest you just hybernate and wait for Spring to melt the ice that you're encapsulated in. Encapsulated...did I spell that right?

Yawn.

I'm sure you and your buddy Bob have lots to talk about, since you are both experts on everything. You can meet at the Miramar Cinema and Bob can regale you with his in-depth knowledge of Thai work permits, since he's possessed so many of them. Then, maybe a trip up to Chiang Mai to hold hands and have a romantic dinner by the bridge overlooking the Moei River.

I thought in Thailand it was more commonly called Phamaa р╕Юр╕бр╣Ир╕▓ ?

[Bob]

No problem with at least having dinner with Dodger. The special tonight is fricaseed hassenpfeffer.*


[Whether I spelled either of those last two words correctly is in the "I don't give a shit" category]

It's actually spelled "hasenpfeffer", and since it is a type of rabbit stew -- not a synonym for "rabbit", as you apparently believe -- I think you would find it difficult to fricassee it (yes, there are two s's in fricassee, so -- as you predicted -- you got both words wrong).

But, I'm sure the man who thinks you can get a Non-Immigrant (B) visa without leaving the country, and the man who thinks it's just a hop-skip-and-jump to Miramar from Chiang Mai across the Moei River (where it flows through Mae Sot), will have a lovely meal, pontificating self-importantly about things of which you have no fucking clue.

[Dodger]

Hey Bob,

How abouit this Recipe:

Bunny Rabbit On a Stick
marinade
4lb deboned bunny rabbit backs and legs cut into small cubes
4tbl spoons olive oil
5cloves garlic minced
2tbl spoons rosemary
3tbl spoons parmesan cheese
salt and pepper

Place bunny rabbit cubes in combined marinade and let marinade over night

Place bunny rabbit on skewers {small portions} roll skewers in flour then in egg then in seasoned bread crumbs.

Heat a cast iron frying pan with oil and brown skewers in oil place browned skewers in roasting pan standing vertical and roast at 400 degrees for 40 minutes enjoy serve with a nice Niagara merlot.

It's customary in places like Madrid, Portugal, Barcelona, and Miramir, to give the pea-sized Bunny Rabbit brain to the neighborhood kids to use as marbles.

Bon Apitite

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"In agreement with Dodger -

(I lived in San Francisco for several years. The city has a huge crystal meth problem. If Yabba is the same or similar to crystal then these comments apply.)

Crystal Meth has a distinct smell. It is hard for me to describe. It is an industrial chemical smell. Not a disinfectant smell but some sort of industrial chemical odor. Not surprising as crystal is made with ephedra, lye, amonia, etc.."

yaba really isn't like crystal meth ..it's more like the old purple hearts (for those who were hippies) or dexedrine..certainly much mlder than crystal meth...but therein lies the problem. It's such a feel good drug but with the usual come-down that speed has, users want more. Not physically addictive but pschologically for some.

Certainly not nearly as dangerous as the favourite drug of choice of western teens..exstacy..overhyped in the media about it's dangers..but like all drugs (including alcohol..one of the worst) dangerous for some.

There is no way you would smell it..unless the user has been up for days.:rr:

[bigben]

It's customary in places like Madrid, Portugal, Barcelona, and Miramir, to give the pea-sized Bunny Rabbit brain to the neighborhood kids to use as marbles.

That was funny Mr. D., I almost bit the end off of my Quintero y Hermano on that one.

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Dodger]

Lunchtime O' Booze Wrote:


yaba really isn't like crystal meth ..it's more like the old purple hearts (for those who were hippies) or dexedrine..certainly much mlder than crystal meth...but therein lies the problem. It's such a feel good drug but with the usual come-down that speed has, users want more. Not physically addictive but pschologically for some.

Lunchtime...I think your spot on about the similarities between yaba and those old purple hearts (purple micro-dot), as the chemicals used are similar, with one small hitch. Yaba is manufactured with trace elements (referred to as throw away elements) of heroine, thus the reason why yaba is also physically addictive.

The high produced by yaba is also very similar to purple micro-dot, or speed, with the added effect of halucinations caused by the trace elements of heroine.

From what I understand, Yaba was first invented by the Nazi's during WW2 as a means of keeping their front-line troops awake for extended periods of time, although the Nazi's produced what I will refer to as "clean yaba", without any trace elements of heroine in its composition. This early version of yaba was also manufactured in controlled labs which makes a big difference. The yaba flowing into LOS from the labs in the Myanmar and Laos are manufactured with these trace elements of heroine for the mere fact that heroine is a by product of opium, and 70% of the worlds supply of opium can be traced right back to the Golden Triangle where it is dirt cheap.

Making this even more dangerous for the users, is the fact that these totally uncontrolled fly-by-night jungle labs up in Myanmar and Laos are throwing everything into the recipe but the kitchen sink, thus the reason why some yaba users experience nothing more than a few hour speed rush, and at other times, they experience halucinations.

I apologize for disagreeing so much on this topic, but yaba produces a very distinct odor, which, to me, smells like burning rubber, and yes, you can definately smell it on a person if they were smoking it. Years ago, I had an a bunch of boys partying all night in the condo, which was my first interaction with yaba. I smoked it myself and couldn''t sleep until noon the next day. It was definately a speed high with mild halucinations, which I attributed at the time to be more influenced by sleep deprevation than anything else. I have also been in looms with boys who just finished passing the joint, and you could smell the yaba in the air, and on them.

Once you smell yaba, you'll never forget it. I 've walked around places like Sunee Plaza and Soi Day/Night and smelled it in the air surrounding a group of boys and/or girls, or coming from a dark corner of a karaoke bar, etc. Not really any different from the 70's and 80's back in the U.S. where the fragrance of marijuana filled the air.

Evan though there are only small amounts of trace elements of heroine in yaba, it is enough to get these kids physically addicted, with heroine being ranked as the most addictive narcotic drug on the planet. I also believe that the rapid escalation in violent crimes in LOS is directly attributed to this "addiction factor." People don't commit murder for a marijuana buzz, they commit murder to feed an uncontrollable physical addiction.

[Khor tose]

No problem with at least having dinner with Dodger. The special tonight is fricaseed hassenpfeffer.*
[Whether I spelled either of those last two words correctly is in the "I don't give a shit" category]

Bob, the Germans are not known for their food, and hassenpfeffer is not good fricaseed unless it has been marinated for quite some time. May I suggest a fine French restaurant and some Lapin a La Cocotte. Should you decide to go French I will join you and Dodger and bring a good Bergundy to drink with the lapin. However, Easter Sunday is a no-go with me.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

I'll take your word for it Dodger..if those with experience say it smells then it must be so.

Afterall..what Thai lad ever has bad breath ?..so any change would be detectable. In fact now you say it smells that explains an incident with a Thai friend a couple of years ago who tried to pass off an odd smell on his breath as something strange he ate.

I tried yaba once..hardly an expert, but it was very similar to speed that I used to take as a youth (so long ago that when we took LSD it was still legal)..and as my shrink boyfriend used to bring home purple hearts by the box load I know their effect very well (and that was so long ago-the Beatles were all still alive and we were in their audience..high on pills ..just like them!)

But any drug from the street is fraught with dangers..and especially for those (unlike me !) with an addictive personality..which is a lot of people. :flower:

Dodger,

I, and others such as APAIC - the Asia & Pacific Amphetamine Type Stimulants Information Centre of the UN Office on Drugs & Crime who are in a far better position than either of us to "scrutinize тАж these places", strongly disagree with you.

My assumption that you did not follow-up the information and links I provided was based on what you wrote, and your high-handed dismissal of them at the time with no further mention.

Your assessment and rejection of them as being "literally a waste of time" because they do not copy the Western "structured program for recovery following any of the successful benchmarks of programs in the West which have proven success rates" is arrogant in the extreme, derogatory and, according to those who are not only in a position to assess them and the skill level of their staff but also qualified to do so, totally wrong.

Agreed, they do not follow the Western system - but does that make them totally ineffective in Thailand, for Thais? NO. Agreed, they neither have nor claim high success rates, but does that mean that they are a "total failure" and " literally a waste of time"? NO. They have a proven (at least to APAIC's satisfaction, if not yours) success rate of as high as 20% - comparable to those "proven success rates" of the Western clinics whose "structured program" you think they should be copying (and up to 20 times higher than those trying to go it alone). While those who have attended these clinics and subsequently returned to their addiction, and those who have rejected them for any number of reasons (amongst them the most obvious being simply that they did not want to go), may well agree with you, those who have been rehabilitated successfully would not - a similar story, I would imagine to those attending such clinics in the West although I have no personal experience of such there.

The "military-like methodologies тАж physical early morning drills and standing next to your bed at attention" is only a small part of the programmes, particularly in the case of the longer rehabilitation programme at Thanyarak, and is more a part of the "boot camps" for young offenders run by the military along very similar lines to those in the US - with similarly mixed results.

While "тАжvisiting the local monk for a dose of majic potion and the reciting of a few mantras" may not work for you (or for me!) you should not be so quick to dismiss it. When making the first of our now annual "pilgrimages" to Khao Khitchakhut temple with my partner we were accompanied by his eldest sister, who suffers from diabetes; after a long trek and the normal merit making we both queued up for a dose of "majic potion" from one of the abbots and made our wishes for our respective medical problems. I tasted hot, used cooking oil and still have a bad back, but although she still has diabetes she no longer has any of the symptoms or problems she had before. Similarly, over 30 years ago when I was still a Catholic, I took part in an international military pilgrimage to Lourdes and partook of the "holy water" there (as well as a lot of unholy spirits) - neither I nor, as far as I know, any of the participants at the time were cured of anything but that does not make Lourdes a "total failure".

Yes, I do know how skilled Thai carpenters and electricians are (one of the reasons why I do most of my own such work), but I am still surprised at what they can do with such a limited amount of equipment and formal training - a far better job, in most cases, than their Western counterparts would do in similar circumstances.


On a different subject, but also in this thread, you claimed that "Up North, near the border of Miramar and Chiang Mai, the soldiers have the legal right to shoot and kill distributors who have more than just 5 pills or tabs on their posession. Scary stuff! From what I understand, this is the reason why local sellers never carry more than 4 pills or tabs on their posession at any one given time." Absolute rubbish. Neither the Border Patrol Police (who actually patrol the borders) nor the military have an authorized shoot to kill policy, nor do they have the legal right to summarily execute anyone found with 5 yaa-baa tablets or more in their possession (which is what you are actually saying). They have the right to fire on and, if necessary, kill, anyone who fires on them - legally that is all, regardless of whether they are in possession of one yaa-baa tablet or one thousand. Few governments or countries would approve of the policy you describe and following the furore over Thaksin's "war on drugs" this government would certainly never do so.


I am amused (or at least used to be) by your posts, but sometimes your imagination and your scorn for things "Thai" just because they are different to those in the West gets the better of you. Nothing illustrates this better than your descriptions of yourself and Su (at a time when your relationship was at its strongest) :

I was raised in a fast paced modern city on Neptune - he was raised in the jungle
- I was driving a car at age 16 - he was struggling to tug the water buffalo from the muck in the rice paddy
- I read the newspaper - he reads cartoon soap operas
- I listen to Jeff Beck - he listens to Isaan jungle racket
- I wake up with the sun - and he doesn't wake up, he evolves from a cocoon when the sun reaches it's daily peak

He is "a yaba addicted - ladyboy prostitute - from the jungles of Thailand" while you are "an independent International Managment Consultant" - not an unskilled, unqualified, unemployed high school drop-out, which is how you might have described a Thai under similar circumstances.

Sometimes the problem is just with the perception, but at others it is clearly with the facts.

[Dodger]

Gonefishing,

The fact that organizations like APAIC and yourself disagree with me on this issue only tells me one thing. That I'm probably pretty close to being absolutely correct.

If you're truly intersted in the subject at hand, and not just editorializing all my statements in an effort to appear more knowledgeable than me on the subject, then I suggest you consider talking directly tro those who have attended these so-called rehabilitation centers, or better yet, professionals like doctors and law enforcement personnel who interact with drug addicts, dealers, and graduates from these rehabilitation centers on a day-to day basis. I believe that your opinion would change dramtically. I don't believe that you would ever admit that your opinion changed, but change it would.

As far as your comments regarding monks and majic potions; You can go on believing anything you want, but as far as I'm concerned, the majic potion that they hand to people suffering from diseases and/or drug addictions stems directly from 2,000 year old tribal superstitions and does about as much good for the suffering person as a good shot of Jack Daniels. I've sat through these ceremonies myself and don't see any connection between these superstitious rituals and Buddhism whatsoever.

Monks do not possess the power to heal (physically heal) any more than you or I. Buddha himself didn't claim to have these powers, nor did he advocate in his teachings that monks should have people believing that they did either. I guess your probably thinking that now I've gone as far as to disagree with the Buddhist monks on this issue, and yes, you would be absolutely correct in that assumption. I'm as enthusiastic about Buddhism now as I was 20 years ago when I first became interested, although make it a practice to only focus on the practical theorectical aspects.

I hope you continue to appreciate my direct, unbiased and colorful writing style, as I would hate to lose a fan.

[Bob]

I took part in an international military pilgrimage to Lourdes and partook of the "holy water" there (as well as a lot of unholy spirits) - neither I nor, as far as I know, any of the participants at the time were cured of anything but that does not make Lourdes a "total failure".

As long as the participants felt better doing that, then surely it wasn't a total failure; however, having been raised a staunch Catholic myself, I would consider it a total fraud at least in my own perceived reality. But faith is a funny thing - if you believe it, it's real for you and, to some degree, that's all that counts. True reality is often not part of the equation.

As concerns the monk, the magic potion, and the mantras, I also consider that to be a total fraud in my reality but it's not my reality that matters. If he believes it and he feels good about it, certainly no harm in it.

The diabetes story is interesting but diabetes is a rather wide diagnosis covering severity levels from A to Z. A lot of people can control diabetes by diet alone (and reducing one's personal stress) but, for those who physically can't do that (i.e., there is a true need for insulin), all the mantras in the world aren't going to make it go away.

Thoroughly sound comments Bob.

Buddhism is beset with mumbo jumbo as much as any other belief system. At least the central one, that there is a god, isn't one of them.

If you're truly intersted in the subject at hand, and not just editorializing all my statements in an effort to appear more knowledgeable than me on the subject

Again, you are under the illusion that I am making "attempts to turn this thread into some kind of "I'm Right - You're Wrong Ass Grabbing Contest." As I explained then, I am not - this is not some sort of personal competition and my posts on the subject are ".... not intended solely to interest or entertain you". Your mind is clearly made up so there is little point in trying to convince you that you are wrong and that, for example, those who have been to the rehabilitation centers and remained addicts (or dismissed them as useless to avoid going and remained addicts) may not be the most objective to judge these centres. Blaming someone else for the problem and the lack of solutions is the easy way out.

The point of my posting on this subject, and posting hard facts and links which you either deny or dismiss, is not to help you or Su; clearly nether of you want help any more now than you did one year ago when you both chose the easy option - deny the existence of any effective rehabilitation centres, claim that it is the norm in order to minimise and excuse the probem ("there's a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and you're probably not aware of it") and just hope it will somehow miraculously go away (and lay down some conditions giving you an honourable way out just in case it doesn't). The point is that the options you deny do exist and someone who is in a similar position to the one you were in a year ago and who genuinely wants to do everything they can to help their friend and preserve their relationship should at least be aware of them.


But faith is a funny thing - if you believe it, it's real for you and, to some degree, that's all that counts. True reality is often not part of the equation.

As concerns the monk, the magic potion, and the mantras, I also consider that to be a total fraud in my reality but it's not my reality that matters.

Bob (and Dek Wat!), you're going to have to stop this - we are in agreement again! My point, which at least you have understood, was that it does not matter whether I believe or disbelieve the "majic", but that for those who do it evidently (and I do mean evidently, literally) can have the desired effect and is "reality". My "sister-in-law" (I have never thought of her as that before, but I suppose it is correct!) still has the same blood sugar count, etc, and is not in a position to change her diet - her 9 dogs, 8 of which share her room and bed with her husband and occasionally one or other of her adult sons plus respective wife and grandchild, get priority and are often better fed than she is. Despite that the main problems, such as the occasional diabetic collapse, related weakness, etc, have never recurred - why, I don't know but I try to keep an open mind and not rule things out just because I neither believe nor understand them.


I hope you continue to appreciate my direct, unbiased and colorful writing style, as I would hate to lose a fan. I said "amused", just as I am amused by watching Man vs. Wild and Bare Grylls' amusing antics: credible to the uninformed, but in reality as absurd and asinine as they would be dangerous to anyone who were to follow his advice - remarkably similar to your posts. Appreciation is a totally different matter.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"military-like methodologies тАж physical early morning drills and standing next to your bed at attention" is only a small part of the programmes, particularly in the case of the longer rehabilitation programme at Thanyarak, and is more a part of the "boot camps" for young offenders run by the military along very similar lines to those in the US - with similarly mixed results."

I know a lad who keeps going on these but falls off the wagon whenever he gets back to the city. It doesn't sound like a world of difference between those doing this and celebrities going in and out of the Betty Ford Clinic. Still..maybe it works for some.

"On a different subject, but also in this thread, you claimed that "Up North, near the border of Miramar and Chiang Mai, the soldiers have the legal right to shoot and kill distributors who have more than just 5 pills or tabs on their posession. Scary stuff! From what I understand, "

was this part of Thaksin's camapign to rid all Thailand of drugs in 6 months ? ..when 1500 'drug dealers' were shot dead ?

[kittyboy]

-----------------------------
The point of my posting on this subject, and posting hard facts and links which you either deny or dismiss, is not to help you or Su; clearly nether of you want help any more now than you did one year ago when you both chose the easy option - deny the existence of any effective rehabilitation centres, claim that it is the norm in order to minimise and excuse the probem ("there's a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and you're probably not aware of it") and just hope it will somehow miraculously go away (and lay down some conditions giving you an honourable way out just in case it doesn't). The point is that the options you deny do exist and someone who is in a similar position to the one you were in a year ago and who genuinely wants to do everything they can to help their friend and preserve their relationship should at least be aware of them.
--------------------------------------------

I thought the point of Gone Fishing's post was to offer up unsolicited and unwanted advice so he could get his feelings hurt when that advice was ignored... Oh no no... I am wrong the point of the post was to demonstrate his pomposity again to us poor readers of Sawatdee Gay Thailand.

Where did the "70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba" come from? Are you sure it is not 69.5% or even 71.3%, that exact 70% probability seems so precise! Slightly germanic.

Back to the original post - My experience was that you could smell crystal (I assume yaba) on people who smoked it. My experience was also that once people were hooked (addicted - physically or mentally) it was very hard for them to give up the drug. If the original poster is interested in a person who is addicted to yaba, I suspect that relationship if pursued would be a very bumpy ride.

[Dodger]

GoneFishing Wrote:


The point of my posting on this subject, and posting hard facts and links which you either deny or dismiss, is not to help you or Su; clearly nether of you want help any more now than you did one year ago when you both chose the easy option - deny the existence of any effective rehabilitation centres, claim that it is the norm in order to minimise and excuse the probem ("there's a 70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba and you're probably not aware of it") and just hope it will somehow miraculously go away (and lay down some conditions giving you an honourable way out just in case it doesn't).

GF, I had to read this paragraph twice in order to understand the point that you are attempting to make. And frankly, I think I need to read it again.

The purpose for me responding to this post originally was to provide my insight and opinons on the subject. Simple as that. Where you get the idea that I was somehow asking you to help Su and I is a mystery that only you can unravel. Furthermore, you have repeatedly made comments related to the addiction problemn that Su is faced with, and the nature of the assistance I provided, as if you are knowledgeable of these things. And you are not.

You Stated:


clearly nether of you want help any more now than you did one year ago when you both chose the easy option

If the option we chose was the "easy option", I'm sure glad we didn't select any of the "tougher options".

Su was provided the opportunity and financial funding to attend the most highly recommended rehabilitation center in Thailand. He had a boyfriend (that would be me) who ditched his fully paid resort condo in Pattaya to dedicate his entire 2- 1/2 month holiday to stay by his side in his luxurious village on the Thai/Cambodian border during his early recovery. He had a boyfriend that pulled the entire family together to form a strong support structure, having written several letters drafted in Thai for the elders to read so they could comprehend the nature of his addiction and the importance of their support through this process.

His boyfriend then built his family a house so they could be together versus being fragmented living in three different provinces as was done in the past. I sat through multiple ceremonies with the monks to show his parents that I was open to any other alternative options, followed by countless hours of research on the topic of yaba addiction. These were just a few of the options which I felt would help support Su in his recovery.

GF...you also went on to jest that I was somehow looking for an honorable way out by setting conditions.

All I can say my friend, is that a person doesn't go through what I have because he's looking for an honorable way out of anything. A person only does these things because he truly loves someone, knowing full-well that all may fail in the end. Frankly, I wish there was some sort of honorable way in. As this would certainly be the most preferred option for me, although that option is fading fast which is the source of the greatest pain I've ever had to endure.

[Khor tose]

GF...you also went on to jest that I was somehow looking for an honorable way out by setting conditions.
All I can say my friend, is that a person doesn't go through what I have because he's looking for an honorable way out of anything. A person only does these things because he truly loves someone, knowing full-well that all may fail in the end. Frankly, I wish there was some sort of honorable way in. As this would certainly be the most preferred option for me, although that option is fading fast which is the source of the greatest pain I've ever had to endure.

Dodger. I've been there and done that with my American BF. I sure hope all of your efforts are not in vain. We can try as hard as we know how to help, but the end result does not lie within us, it relies within the addict. I do not know you or your boy well enough to give you advice, but always remember you cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. This is not advice for your situation, but in the situation I was in, some friends saved me from trying over and over again. What my friends said to me was you need to let him go and hope he can eventually find the strength to quit on his own, or find some one else who may have--for some reason--a better chance of helping him. My experience taught me that you only get one really good shot, and then you should walk away for the good of the boy. It was not an easy thing to do, but it was the best answer for both of us..

Where did the "70% probability that your Thai boyfriend is on Yaba" come from? Are you sure it is not 69.5% or even 71.3%, that exact 70% probability seems so precise! Slightly germanic.

It came from Dodger, Pissyboy.

GF, I had to read this paragraph twice in order to understand the point that you are attempting to make. And frankly, I think I need to read it again.

Agreed: you do need to read it again - but don't waste your time, your halo might fall off.


Where you get the idea that I was somehow asking you to help Su and I is a mystery that only you can unravel. Furthermore, you have repeatedly made comments related to the addiction problemn that Su is faced with, and the nature of the assistance I provided, as if you are knowledgeable of these things. And you are not.

As I have attempted to explain, but you appear unable to understand, my comments were not solely for your benefit either here or in your original related thread. Believe it or not there are others who read this board who may have (or have had) the same problem and who are entitled to be given accurate and balanced information (and I am not claiming that I am correct - just that there are options available which can be checked by anyone wishing to do so). I disagree totally with your view of the rehabilitation systems, as do those who are in a far better position than you and I to judge them. You are fully entitled to your view, and to give it here, as I am to mine.

Agreed, I am not knowledgeable of whatever assistance you provided - any knowledge I have is strictly limited to the information given in your posts, which is radically different now to that given previously where, for example, you made no mention of visiting Bangkok or Thanyarak (although you gave details of everything else). Your assumption that I know nothing of "the addiction problemn that Su is faced with" is, however, incorrect. Although I have no personal knowledge of them I doubt if his addiction problems are very different to anyone else's, so I have as much right to talk about them in general terms as you (after all, I lived with a Thai addict for considerably longer than you have, not that I am particularly proud of the fact.)


If the option we chose was the "easy option", I'm sure glad we didn't select any of the "tougher options". Su was provided the opportunity and financial funding to attend the most highly recommended rehabilitation center in Thailand.

Maybe a "tougher option" would have been one which he did not prefer, but which he had to be pushed towards; it, too, would probably have been unsuccessful, but the chances of success would have been up to 20 times better. Since you mention the "financial funding", at a couple of thousand baht it would also have been far cheaper for anyone considerng the option.


He had a boyfriend (that would be me) who ditched his fully paid resort condo in Pattaya to dedicate his entire 2- 1/2 month holiday to stay by his side in his luxurious village on the Thai/Cambodian border during his early recovery. He had a boyfriend that pulled the entire family together to form a strong support structure .....

I must have totally misunderstood your previous posts. I understood not only that he had been off the yaa-baa for sometime prior to your visit (apart from when you "dragged him back to Pattaya"), but that it was the family and the local temple that you believed were already providing "a strong support structure". I had also failed to realise what punishment you were putting yourself through during your stay - maybe your writing that "Not only did I survive living in Isaan for nearly 2 ┬╜ months, I actually enjoyed it. тАж.the sex and romance was better than I could have ever imagined" confused me.

We are clearly never going to agree on this or, quite possibly, any other subject. Suffice to say that anyone faced with a similar problem would be well advised to seek any help they can - even from you - before making up their minds.

We can try as hard as we know how to help, but the end result does not lie within us, it relies within the addict. I do not know you or your boy well enough to give you advice, but always remember you cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. This is not advice for your situation, but in the situation I was in, some friends saved me from trying over and over again. What my friends said to me was you need to let him go and hope he can eventually find the strength to quit on his own, or find some one else who may have--for some reason--a better chance of helping him. My experience taught me that you only get one really good shot, and then you should walk away for the good of the boy. It was not an easy thing to do, but it was the best answer for both of us..

Khor tose,

these are wise words and very sound advice. I was in exactly the same position with my ex and had tried everything I could - family, friends, support, sympathy, clinic, etc, etc and put myself through hell for years. All failed and I blamed myself, only later realising that it was not my fault (he had been an addict before we met, and continued to be one for a long time after we separated). In his particular case, fortunately for him and his family at least as far as that aspect is concerned, he has somehow managed to resolve that problem for himself (although there are many others!).

I firmly believe that anyone in a similar position should heed your advice - give it your best shot (whether it is the one he wants or not) and if it doesn't work then move on for everybody's sake.

[kittyboy]

It came from Dodger, Pissyboy.

-------------------------------

Go Fuckyourself - You have really outdone yourself again. You now are a semi expert on drug addiction among your may other skills.

Go Fuckyourseslf - You sir are a treasure.

A bit self-important - but hey with your skill set - I guess you should be self-important.

[Dodger]

GoneFishing Wrote:


these are wise words and very sound advice. I was in exactly the same position with my ex and had tried everything I could - family, friends, support, sympathy, clinic, etc, etc and put myself through hell for years. All failed and I blamed myself, only later realising that it was not my fault (he had been an addict before we met, and continued to be one for a long time after we separated).

This is actually getting humorous (if it wasn't before) - in a pityful sense.

My first blazing question:

Why did you put yourself through hell for years, when all you had to do was take him to a rehabilitation center ???

Second question:

If you place your level of knowledge on the subject of "drug addition" on the same level as those organizations who you keep linking us to, then why did you put your self through living hell for years, when evan elementary school children understand enough about drug addiction to grasp the fact that YOU cannot cure ANYONE. ??? And furthermore, if you find yourself in a relationship with an addict and don't set conditions (FOR YOURSELF) you'll end up getting dragged through the gutter during the addicts ride, which you apparently allowed yourself to do.

Final question:

During what period did you obtain this superior level of expertise on the subject ? Was it before, during, or after the period in which you allowed the boy to fuck your entire life up ?

No hard feels...it's just that you're so much fun to talk to.

Now, if you don't mind, I just returned home from the airport and have a shot of Tres Generationes Tequila and a fresh lime waiting for me on the balcony...have to run.

Cheers

This is actually getting humorous (if it wasn't before)

Maybe for you and Pissyboy.


My first blazing question: Why did you put yourself through hell for years, when all you had to do was take him to a rehabilitation center ???

Already answered in my previous post: "I was in exactly the same position with my ex and had tried everything I could - family, friends, support, sympathy, clinic, etc, etc and put myself through hell for years. All failed and I blamed myself, only later realising that it was not my fault (he had been an addict before we met, and continued to be one for a long time after we separated)". As I have previously explained, at length, the failure rate at Thanyarak is some 80% (which included him) so having tried what I considered the best option I tried others.


Second question: .... why did you put your self through living hell for years, when .... YOU cannot cure ANYONE. ??? And furthermore, if you find yourself in a relationship with an addict and don't set conditions (FOR YOURSELF) you'll end up getting dragged through the gutter during the addicts ride, which you apparently allowed yourself to do.

I have also explained this. At the time we met I was a naive 29 year old, who knew nothing about addiction, rather than the far more experienced 51 year old I (and, co-incidentally, you) am now, which is precisely why I admit to having made a mistake 20 years ago, which I hope others can avoid making, and agreed with Khor tose's post. I put myself through it for exactly the same reasons as you did with Su - to try to help someone I cared about.


Final question: During what period did you obtain this superior level of expertise on the subject ? Was it before, during, or after the period in which you allowed the boy to fuck your entire life up ?

Repetition really does get boring after a while. I do not claim to have any "superior level of expertise" - just personal experience which anyone else in the same position may be able to learn something from without making the same mistakes, and which could show them that there are a number of options available to them. Quite why you have such a problem with that eludes me. My ex did not " fuck (my) entire life up", unless you consider the type of life you aspire to to be "fucked up": I am a similar age to you, have been retired here for 16 years, and have a very pleasant life-style which I have shared with my Thai Civil Partner, whom I love deeply and trust totally, for the past 6 years.

Enjoy the tequila .....