PDA

View Full Version : The tragic case of Joost Schouten



PeterUK
March 7th, 2009, 10:07
I enjoy reading the accounts of Westerners who travelled or lived in Siam in bygone eras. I am interested in their living conditions, their travelling arrangements, how they got on with the people they met, what they made of the local customs тАУ not to mention their sexual adventures and, in particular, gay sexual adventures. Unfortunately, accounts of the latter are scanty to say the least. Not until the 1920s does a book appear (Ebbe KornerupтАЩs Friendly Siam) which broaches the subject and even then in a very nudges-and-winks kind of way.

Of course, there was a Western presence in Siam long before that. The Portuguese had a trading post in the capital, Ayutthaya, as early as the 16th century and the Dutch arrived at the start of the 17th century. It is clear from reports that many of these early resident Westerners kept Siamese concubines, several if they could afford it. In this they were merely imitating the behaviour of the Siamese themselves. Since homosexuality was not illegal (though it did attract a certain amount of ridicule among the Siamese), it is likely that some Westerners discreetly kept boys. They donтАЩt tell us about it, however, because of the prejudice in their own communities. The tragic case of Joost Schouten shows just how dire the consequences of exposure could be.

Schouten, from Rotterdam, was one of the most able and energetic servants of the Dutch East India Company during the 17th century. He first came to prominence when presenting a ceremonial gift from the Prince of Orange to the King of Siam in 1628. He subsequently spent some time on a trading mission to Japan, but returned to Siam in 1633 as Director of the re-established Dutch factory in Ayutthaya. Well-liked and respected by his colleagues, he was also highly esteemed by the volatile Siamese King, Prasat Thong, who granted trading concessions as a result, which greatly improved the fortunes of the Dutch factory. In 1636 Schouten penned one of the earliest Western accounts of Siam (describing its geography, judicial system, religion and so on), an admirably clear and well-organised document. He left Siam for the last time in the same year, returning to Holland for a while and then arriving in Batavia (now Jakarta), the regional headquarters of the Dutch East India Company, as a member of the council in 1640. From there he conducted two missions as an envoy with his customary zeal and efficiency.

By early 1644 Schouten could look back with satisfaction on a career of great achievement. He might have nursed hopes of becoming Governor-General in the East or even of joining the Board of Directors back in Holland. Instead, his world was about to come crashing down around him.

In July 1644 he was tried and convicted of sodomy, a crime which in those days was punishable with death. The abhorrence felt by the grim Calvinists who tried him was such that mention was made in the sentence passed on him of тАШhow abominable this filthy and vile sodomitish sin is in the eyes of God and man, so that for this reason the Lord God has destroyed Lands and Cities with fire from Heaven, as an example and warning to the whole worldтАЩ. The sentence listed, тАШin disgusting detailтАЩ according to one of the few scholars to have seen a copy of it in 1935, SchoutenтАЩs crimes. Neither his glittering reputation nor the earnest entreaties of his many influential relatives and friends could save him. The only mercy shown him was that he was to be strangled at the stake prior to being burned; his ashes were then to be scattered and his considerable property confiscated. Schouten had made no attempt to defend himself in court and, after the Governor-General had confirmed his sentence on the same day it was issued, he made a full confession of his guilt, admitting that he had started the practice in Siam. Shortly thereafter the sentence was carried out.

An entry in the diary of another Dutchman, Gijsbert Heeck, a medical doctor travelling in Siam in 1651, provides a little more information about the cause of SchoutenтАЩs undoing. Claiming to have witnessed the execution seven years earlier, Heeck admits that Schouten was тАШa man of unusual knowledge and extraordinary intellectтАЩ. Having thus exhausted his fund of goodwill, he goes on to say that тАШin his heart he was a hypocritical villain and seducer of many, secretly using his prominence and great authority to force them away from the path of decency into the way of his shameful foulness, seeking thereby to satisfy his devilish lecheryтАЩ. He says that others were implicated in SchoutenтАЩs deeds and were executed at the same time or later тАУ тАШa fitting recompense and retribution for their gruesome life on earthтАЩ. They can expect even worse in the hereafter, he says, before concluding with sudden and almost comically jarring humility, тАШBut it is not for us to judgeтАЩ.

Nowadays Scouten is remembered, if at all, for his excellent little description of Siam. Scholars have largely ignored him. The modern reader is left with many unanswered questions, particularly with regard to his trial and untimely death. An interesting research opportunity awaits someone. In the meantime, we can probably all agree that, as gay people, we are lucky to be alive now and not back in those much harsher times.

March 7th, 2009, 10:37
Wow how Interesting Peter, your writings have always Interested me and this snippet of History with in Siam is a photo snap of nothing more than is going on now, but ever so watered down, even though there was no Go Go Bars, there was slaves being sold and the size of there weapon, was of Interest to the Rich buyers.

I feel lucky to have been here in the late 70s from 1976 even though if I mention it you get some late settlers who seem to thinks its of no consequence, now, but if you saw what I have seen in those days, I could not even write it here, Ill just say I use to stay at the Royal Cliff in those days, very special prices, with The then Managers BRONO and Luis fastben who just about put Pattaya on the map. Some of the people I use to meet in those days, one well known guy, who is 86 now and still coming backwards and forwards to Thailand every year, we use to be part of a small contingency, who use to have the pick of the best.

I was talking to a guy the other day, who use to visit Thailand in the 50s and it seems it has always been sensational, but getting less amusing as the worst of the Influences of the West are now really starting to take effect.

Keep up your wonderful articulate writing and "Please sir. Can we have a lot more "?

March 7th, 2009, 13:11
Homosexuality became legal in The Netherlands in 1811 and these days the Dutch are leaders in the international GLBT rights industry. However, I have never met a Dutchman who does not have severe halitosis and I wish their country would pass a law making the use of Listerine compulsory.

This is a list of countries (source Wikipedia) where the death penalty still exists for homomsexuality:
Somalia, Libya, Sudan, Mauritania, Sharia areas of Nigeria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen

Is it possible that KLM now fly direct from Netherlands to Thailand, avoiding the United Arab Emirates, so that their nationals don't get the oportunity to commit "abominable, filthy and vile sodomitish sins" in a country where they could end up dead? Conversely is it hypocritical or just practical that so many men from the UAE find it necessary to fly to nicer spots around the world to indulge in things that would get them killed them in their own country?

March 7th, 2009, 14:32
In the meantime, we can probably all agree that, as gay people, we are lucky to be alive now and not back in those much harsher times.

Well PeterUK, if you happen to get caught sleeping with a 17 year old you may quickly find out just how harsh our own times can be as well. Your namesake, a German man, who ran a popular bar in Sunee was one such person who was all but burnt at the stake at the time of his arrest by way of garbage media journalism.

I still hear variations on that theme you mentioned about тАШhow abominable this filthy and vile sodomitish sin is in the eyes of God and man, so that for this reason the Lord God has destroyed Lands and Cities with fire from Heaven, as an example and warning to the whole world.тАЩ

Make a mistake of one day in reading a birth date and you too may wish you were dead.

But I would like to go a bit deeper into the Joost Schouten matter. You see, if in fact it turned out that the victims Schouten was sodomizing were boys who were 17 or (god forbid!) 16 years old, then most on this board would find the justice meted out to him to have been not only appropriate but also fair. But we just don't know his victims ages it seems.

The one place we might have found out would have been in archives which in the late 90s and early 2000s were seized in Holland and judges set about deciding the question whether sexuality that is judged criminal can be documented for posterity. I never heard how that turned out, but I know that some good Dutch citizens tried to burn down the library about the same time. A Dutchman I know told me a year ago that the archive has not been destroyed but rather that the police turned over all of its documents to some other foundation which will not allow researchers access. Some library! Some world we live in! I find the hysterics quite amusing.

So you see PeterUK, the 17th century is really quite similar to the 21st if we scratch just a bit beneath the surface. Only the modus operandi has shifted somewhat. The essence of it all is intact.

x in pattaya
March 7th, 2009, 15:29
Is it possible that KLM now fly direct from Netherlands to Thailand, avoiding the United Arab Emirates, so that their nationals don't get the opportunity to commit "abominable, filthy and vile sodomitish sins" in a country where they could end up dead? Conversely is it hypocritical or just practical that so many men from the UAE find it necessary to fly to nicer spots around the world to indulge in things that would get them killed them in their own country?

Having worked in both the UAE University and the Higher Colleges of Technology, I can assure you there are men there who are openly gay (in the sense that they made no attempt to conceal it) and, at least amongst their classmates, accepted with no more ill will than you would find in similar situations elsewhere, including the "enlightened west." One gay student in particular that I recall was actually a member of one of the royal families and was quite popular with other students.

The students knew I spent my holidays in Thailand and all that that implied and no one was bothered about that. In fact, at the end of one holiday a student startled me by telling me in a crowded hallway that he had spent the holiday in Thailand тАЬfucking Thai boys.тАЭ

Amongst the teaching staff at both institutions there were a considerable number of single expat males, many of whom were on Thai Airways the first day of every holiday.

One of the attractions of the UAE amongst Filipina maids is a fairly active lesbian subculture. Apparently they feel more comfortable there than they did at home.

Occasionally there would be a newspaper report about some boy being gang raped. I can't be certain of the consequences for those who did it, but believe it usually involved imprisonment & possibly caning, not death ... and that was after all an assault rather than consensual sex.

Of course a great deal of what happens to people, especially nationals, never gets in the news. Family honor is more powerful than the law, and in some cases honor killings are excused by the law. ItтАЩs possible that homosexual sons in more conservative families are treated abominably. Some undoubtedly are forced into sham marriages and miserable lives, maybe worse.

The Sultan of Oman, a neighboring country, is well known for his succession of boys-in-residence. According to rumor in years past his boys were given a pink Cadillac as a partial reward for royal services rendered.

And, to be fair, heterosexual intercourse outside of sanctioned marriage is also "prohibited," but female prostitution exists fairly openly, either in bars or massage venues that operate in the shadows. Of course, if a criminal charge is ever laid, it would always be the female who gets the worst of it.

IтАЩm not suggesting that the UAE is an up-and-coming gay destination or a haven of sexual freedom, but then Europe & North America have only recently been more gay friendly and still are not universally so. IтАЩm almost certain there are sodomy laws still on the books in many places in the US, just as there are laws against тАЬmiscegenation,тАЭ etc. even if they would never stand up in court.

Remember only a few years ago in the US :
Christian Right rhetoric stirs up gay hatred

On October 7, Shepard, a gay man and a student at the University of Wyoming in Laramie, was viciously beaten, burned, tortured, and left to die in near-freezing temperatures--crucified on a wooden fence. Two men and two women were arrested for the crime after the women went to the police and described the events. They said Shepard was lured into a vehicle by their boyfriends who claimed to be gay, then beaten while the men spewed anti-gay epithets. Shepard died 5 days later without regaining consciousness.

The Christian Right Context... "No Tears for Queers"

Across the nation, many people are asking in shock how it can be that society has come to hate so much. They watched in disbelief and horror as Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kansas, brought his disciples to picket Shepard's funeral with signs saying, "God Hates Fags," "No Tears for Queers," and "Matthew Burns in Hell."

Cees-Holland
March 7th, 2009, 17:24
I have never met a Dutchman who does not have severe halitosis and I wish their country would pass a law making the use of Listerine compulsory.


Wow, what a generalization. Did you only connect with homeless people here (or any other group with no access to healthcare or personal hygiene)?

March 7th, 2009, 19:35
I have never met a Dutchman who does not have severe halitosis and I wish their country would pass a law making the use of Listerine compulsory.


Wow, what a generalization. Did you only connect with homeless people here (or any other group with no access to healthcare or personal hygiene)?

IтАЩm sure that there must be a few Dutch people who don't suffer from halitosis but I have not met them amongst the thousand of Dutch people who come here to Thailand.

Ask around and others will tell you the same тАУ that halitosis is a national characteristic of the Dutch; just as talking loudly is an American trait or being a yobbo is an English one.

DonтАЩt they sell Listerine or breath mints at Schiphol?

francois
March 8th, 2009, 03:48
I have never met a Dutchman who does not have severe halitosis and I wish their country would pass a law making the use of Listerine compulsory.

Ask around and others will tell you the same тАУ that halitosis is a national characteristic of the Dutch; just as talking loudly is an American trait or being a yobbo is an English one.


You omitted the French and Germans! And the Irish with their small dicks and Africans with their BIG ones.

March 8th, 2009, 04:12
You omitted the French and Germans! And the Irish with their small dicks and Africans with their BIG ones.

I omitted the 'soap-dodging' French and other nationals because actually most of these 'national characteristics' are untrue for the majority ... however in the case of the Dutch who visit Thailand, the fact of my personal experience is that they all have bad breath.

rincondog
March 8th, 2009, 08:19
padlom wrote:

just as talking loudly is an American trait or being a yobbo is an English one.

I RESENT YOU SAYING THAT ALL AMERICANS TALK LOUDLY, THAT IS AN EXAGERATION.

Lunchtime O'Booze
March 8th, 2009, 09:08
I take great exception to the ludicrous claim that the Irish have small dicks !!!..(although the Scots give them a run for thier money) and I've kissed many a sweet smelling Dutchman (though they did tend to be 18 at the time) but I once picked up a French boy of 19 in Amsterdam with halitosis who also happened to be a trainee dentist...

Yes X of pattaya is correct-even Sultan Qaboos's sister has complained that he will not be producing an heir and it should be noticed that his lifelong "equerry", an ex-British army officer Brigadier Langdon (whose palace in Muscat was only slightly smaller than the Sultan's) recently passed away leaving a billion dollar fortune, partly accumulated through his annual million dollar birthday gift from the Sultan.

Blonde American boys should form a queue at Gulf Airways for the first flight to Oman while there is still time-rewards and gold booty abound. And let's not even mention Morocco.

But PeterUK you are confused if you believe you live in a golden age of fagdom just because of "gay liberation" (dykes can defend themselves). Just because a chap these days can walk down most western city streets in stilettos and fishnets with their briefcase and bowler hat to the office, quite safely and barely turn a had (or as in Australia where such dress is compulsory) I believe it is no better than the past.

All that happens is there is a backlash every 50 years or so and the sodomites are condemned and an example is made-such as happened with poor Oscar Wilde. Never believe it was just a fight between his very plain boyfriend Bosie and his frightful dad-it was an establishment plot to rid London of a glorious period of male bordellos where a lad could be had for shilling or so and they flocked from the North and the East End to earn their supper from well-heeled gents. That ended abruptly with Oscar in the dock.

This was the result of a Murdoch-before-his-time, a Manchester tabloid newspaper who discovered "sex sells" and his tales of wicked London streets awash with homos led to calls "that something must be done" in Parliament while many in the House of Lords trembled and wondered (not about being exposed) but what will happen when their favourite party house was raided by Mr Plod.

And so it's been happening throughout history-from Roman senators and their hordes of male "slaves" (never forget the fierce bidding that went on between hign bred wealthy Italian ladies and gents at slave auctions once the 'goods" had been throroughly inspected. It truly was a time when an inch or so meant a fabulous bonus for a slave trader.

It appears poor Joost Schouten was a victim of his time -the juicy details read out at his trial would today just be normal reading in the News of The World in Britain..an odd place -obsessed with sex scandals, particularly one involving poofs.

And need I point out -that other chap, a rogue rabbi wandering the ME with a group of adoring men, who was put high on a hill for all to see ?..of yes..why do you think the Romans washed their hands of him once they heard the details ?.

As for Herod..well all that make-up !. Says it all.