What has changed your thinking about Thailand recently?

If you are rethinking previous plans about relocating to, or holidaying in, Thailand or you are beginning to have doubts what has been the main cause of such rethinking.

How about the option of voting for "ALL OF THE ABOVE"

[llz]

For us working class battlers, an essential reason would be the future of our jobs and the risk of being sacked according to our boss'es whims.

Actually, the Thai Labour Law gives more protection to workers (both local and foreign) than almost anywhere else I can think of. In most of the Western world, you get sacked, you're sacked. In Thailand, at least, you must be paid off -- up to 10 months' severance payment, plus vacation days, plus more money in lieu of advance notice, etc., etc. Getting laid off can be quite lucrative, actually. Of course, it depends on you actually working legally, with a work permit.

[adman5000]

I have reduced my trips to Thailand this year mostly due to the general economic condition and higher airfares. There is always civil unrest of some sort somewhere in Thailand and ditto on the crime. Certainly the poor handling of the airport situation did nothing to help, but it did not affect me while I was there. I also like the weather cooler and so prefer to visit at the appropriate time.

I am still thinking on whether I would want to live there for any longer period of time than two months. I enjoy my return to the USA.

[krobbie]

I would usually have come back in May. My lover works in BKK but until either my financial situation improves at home in New Zealand or the NZ dollars strengthens against the baht, I shall be only going to Thailand one more time this year - probably August/September.

I will get my guy to come to NZ over Christmas instead of me going there. Again a cheaper option even if I pay the fair.

Cheers
krobbie

Exchange rate moves mean value for money in Thailand is still good, but not as outstanding as previously.

I'll still be there on holiday, if my job lasts...

The Chiang Mai nonsense shows what could happen, if lawlessness continues to escalate.

[joe552]

I hit my 53rd birthday in January and realised I was planning exactly the same holiday as last year! What had happened to the intrepid traveller I used to be? So I'm skipping Thailand this year and going to Brazil. No reflection on Thailand and how I feel about it, but I since I still plan to retire there, there are other places I want to see first.

Fear of not fitting in with the expat community based on perceptions gleaned from reading boards like this

Why would anyone want to 'fit in' with the bunch of clapped-out old has-beens that infest this board?

[thrillbill]

Actually, the Thai Labour Law gives more protection to workers (both local and foreign) than almost anywhere else I can think of. In most of the Western world, you get sacked, you're sacked. In Thailand, at least, you must be paid off -- up to 10 months' severance payment, plus vacation days, plus more money in lieu of advance notice, etc., etc. Getting laid off can be quite lucrative, actually. Of course, it depends on you actually working legally, with a work permit.

???? I am surprised of this comment--that it can be quite lucrative to be laid off. At my place of work (yes, we all have work permits) the employer has given the laid off employees (farang) 3 month notice before being "laid off" (choosing the ones that have the highest salaries to get axed). No 10 months severance pay ... AND they need their "superiors" to give then a good recommendation for the next job. Can't rock the boat. So what law is there that says one (a farang) gets 10 months severance; plus vacation?

[anakot]

While the fear of civil unrest is a worry generally I will keep going regardless.

What has been bought home to me though is the depth of the divisions within Thai society. No particular surprise about there being divisions. In western countries there are similar divisions and/but people generally loathe their leaders, bitch and moan about everything but this is a way of working thru issues... Thailand doesn't seem to have these mechanisms developed with no prospect of reconciling opposing points without resorting to desperate and destructive tactics. The only time this matters to me (selfishly) is when it spills over into the visitors domain, like airports etc... There is also the possibility of actual disorder as has occurred earlier but generally you just keep away from those areas as they are nothing to do with us anyway. I am certainly very interested to see how the police & army react if the red shirts behave as the yellow shirts just have.

Anyway these events seem to be contained or containable and won't stop me going for the time being.

[Wesley]

Given the unrest the anti-gay activist in Chaing Mai the airport and the assumption that that things can turn bad there very quickly and with out warning, I prefer to stay here in the Philippines where things are relatively safe. I will slip in when I think things are busy again and the economic situation there and world wide have settled down. Although to fly in from here is not that much, I do wish to be able to return when I plan. The Airport thing is a key factor for me but not the main thing. Most of it has to do with the instability over all and that things could fall apart very quickly. For me its almost all of the above not just one thing.

Actually, the Thai Labour Law gives more protection to workers (both local and foreign) than almost anywhere else I can think of. In most of the Western world, you get sacked, you're sacked. In Thailand, at least, you must be paid off -- up to 10 months' severance payment, plus vacation days, plus more money in lieu of advance notice, etc., etc. Getting laid off can be quite lucrative, actually. Of course, it depends on you actually working legally, with a work permit.

???? I am surprised of this comment--that it can be quite lucrative to be laid off. At my place of work (yes, we all have work permits) the employer has given the laid off employees (farang) 3 month notice before being "laid off" (choosing the ones that have the highest salaries to get axed). No 10 months severance pay ... AND they need their "superiors" to give then a good recommendation for the next job. Can't rock the boat. So what law is there that says one (a farang) gets 10 months severance; plus vacation?


http://www.ethailand.com/index.php?id=1804

Thai law prescribes a number of legal obligations to employers when terminating staff.



These obligations may involve notice of termination, annual leave, severance, provident fund, reimbursable expenses, damages for unfair dismissal , as well as other issues depending upon the particular employment arrangement between the two parties.



Among the many important legal issues to be considered by the employer when terminating staff is the employer's requirement to pay severance.



Thai law provides a general requirement for employers to pay severance to staff to be terminated unless legal cause for the termination is present.



The amount of severance payable by the company is calculated using a formula set forth by statute. This formula takes into consideration the employee's period of continuous employment with the company as well as the employee's daily wage rate as of the date of the termination.



Below is a chart stating the relationship between the employee's period of employment with the company and the minimum amount of severance which is payable upon termination.



Severance Payable
Employed at least 120 days, but less than 1 year 30 days wages
Employed at least 1 year, but less than 3 years 90 days wages
Employed at least 3 years, but less than 6 years 180 days wages
Employed at least 6 years, but less than 10 years 240 days wages
Employed more than 10 years 300 days wages

For example, suppose an employee has worked at a company continuously for period 7 years is terminated. Also, suppose no legal cause for the termination is present.



The above chart states that the amount of severance payable to such an employee who has worked continuously for the same employer for at least 6 years, but less than 10 years is equal to 240 days wages.



Therefore, in the above example the minimum amount of severance payable to the employee (before taxes) who has worked continuously with the company for 7 years would be calculated as follows.



Daily Wage Rate * 240 Days = Severance Payable.



The employee's daily wage rate is generally determined by taking the employee's monthly wage rate as of the date of termination and dividing by 30 (Monthly Wage Rate / 30 = Daily Wage Rate).



Using the above example, if the employee's monthly wage rate is 60,000 Baht as of the date of termination, the severance payable to the employee (before taxes) would be calculated as follows.



60,000 Baht (Monthly Wage Rate) / 30 days = 2,000 Baht Daily Wage Rate

2,000 Baht (Daily Wage Rate) * 240 days = 480,000 Baht Severance Payable.

Severance is payable by the company before the effective date of an employee's termination.



As stated above, Thai law dictates that severance is generally payable to an employee to be terminated unless the company can establish legal cause for termination.



In order to demonstrate legal cause, the applicable statute states that the employer must establish that the employee exhibited any one of six types of behavior toward the company.



These types of behavior can be summarized as follows.



The employee





1) performs duties dishonestly or intentionally commits a criminal act against the employer;



2) intentionally causes employer to suffer losses;



3) performs act of gross negligence which causes employer to suffer severe losses;



4) violates employer's work rules or regulations or orders which are legal and fair after the employer has already given a written warning, except in serious situations in which case the employer is not required to give written warning;



5) neglects duties for 3 consecutive work days without reasonable cause, whether or not there is a holiday intervening in such period; or



6) has been imprisoned by final judgement except for offenses arising out of negligent acts or for petty offenses.



If the employer can establish that any one of the above types of behavior is present the employer is not required to pay severance to the employee to be terminated.

Employers who intend to withhold payment of severance in this situation should have clear documentation on file demonstrating that any one of the above 6 types of behavior is present.

[Smiles]

" ... In Thailand, at least, you must be paid off -- up to 10 months' severance payment, plus vacation days, plus more money in lieu of advance notice, etc., etc. Getting laid off can be quite lucrative, actually. Of course, it depends on you actually working legally, with a work permit ... "
I too would like a very good dose of clarification and verification of Bunny's contention in this quote.
To my knowledge (granted, not extensive on this subject, but living with a Thai guy who knows quite a lot about it) Bunny's quote is absolute hogwash on almost all counts noted above ... especially for foreigners working in Thailand, who would I think have to rely on their (foreign?) employer's good graces rather than the Thai government.

I would think that the Thai Law quoted in the post above would apply only to the elites and high professions in Thailand . . . certainly the "average" worker in Thailand (or the "average" farang english teacher) wouldn't have a hope in hell of accessing the gold plated kiss-off alluded to in the link Bunny provides.

Willing to be corrected and humbled if we can have some credible sources from Bunny (or Chao Na/Boygeenyus/etc etc I presume).

Cheers ...

The law applies to all workers, local or foreign, and the Thai Central Labour Court is highly pre-disposed towards the worker -- regardless of nationality. I personally know three (foreign) friends who took their grievances to the court and were awarded what was due to them under the law. I testified on behalf of one of them.

Do you even know where the Labour Court is, Smiles? Or have any personal knowledge whatsoever? No, I didn't think so.

By the way, this result came up in a two-second Google search. I suppose, though, you'll predictably accuse the poster of being Homintern, boygeenyus, chao na, the tooth fairy, or all four though.

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/thaila ... court.html (http://www.expatforum.com/expats/thailand-expat-forum-expats-living-thailand/14339-thai-labour-law-court.html)

I recently took my previous employer, (a large Thai company) to court over unfair dismissal.
I won the case and received compensation.
I would like to congratulate the Thai Labour Court in as much as my case was heard with full fairness and with no bias towards me because I am a foreigner.
Further, I was very lucky to have a brilliant and fair lawyer. He quoted me a flat rate and stuck to that rate even though the company prolonged preceedings which resulted in seven court appearances.
I think many foreigners do not persue labour matters through the court system because they feel it is hopeless in a foreign country. This is not the case in Thailand. If you have an employment grievience, take it to court.
If you would like the contact details of my lawyer, feel free to send me a message.

[Patexpat]

yes, beach bunny's experience of the Thai Labour Dept are exactly what I would have expected.

Thai labour laws are VERY strong in protecting the employee,leaving the employer potentially badly exposed.

For example, it's common practice here for employees to simply walk out and not serve notice. But as an employer can you with hold salary for breach of contract? Nope, you can't. So even if it leaves you stuffed you still have to pay even if no notice is given.

Legally staff should give a minimum notice equal to their pay period - so paid weekly, one weeks notice, monthly then one months notice. If they break that contract you can take them to court for breach of contract but not withhold any benefits or salary.

So, you take them to court - but what can you realistically expect to get back in terms of compensation? Not a lot!

[TrongpaiExpat]

While that list of grievances/problems are quite valid, It has no influence on my continued residence in Thailand. It seems to me that you can also generate a list of problems and annoyances associated with your homeland or anyplace that you decide to live or visit.

While that list of grievances/problems are quite valid, It has no influence on my continued residence in Thailand. It seems to me that you can also generate a list of problems and annoyances associated with your homeland or anyplace that you decide to live or visit.

Indeed, but it wouldn't have much relevance to this board would it.

With results in after 24 hours it's interesting that we have a majority whose plans are not affected.

The number affected by currency fluctuation is interesting as not all currencies are affected to the same extent. That suggests that many who are contemplating long term residence in Thailand are near the fringes, in economic terms, of those who should. Fluctuations are always with us but the recent dive of some currencies was spectacular and swift. Perhaps the lesson is to make plans when things are bad rather than when things are good.

In theory BB/BG is quite correct - in practice, however, the outcome is seldom quite as rosy as he paints it. As Fatts said, a lot of companies simply choose to "go under" as the easiest option, paying no compensation; others do as ThrillB said, giving notice and so keeping the workers on, with no O/T and no compensation later. Most lay off the most recently taken on first, cut O/T for all, cut working hours (and consequently take home pay). To suggest that getting laid off for an employee who has been with the same company for several years, getting O/T, assisted medical treatment, etc, is "quite lucrative" or even a preferred option is simply moronic - hardly surprising from BB/BG, however.

You left out a big one - the proverbial Elephant in the living room.
Namely the "Topic-that-shall-not-be-discussed" about "The-person-who-shall-not-be-named".

The heavy handed censorship about the most important topic regarding Thailand's future should be enough to give one pause about this country.

[krobbie]

You left out a big one - the proverbial Elephant in the living room.
Namely the "Topic-that-shall-not-be-discussed" about "The-person-who-shall-not-be-named".

The heavy handed censorship about the most important topic regarding Thailand's future should be enough to give one pause about this country.

Good point kenc. It really galls me. Until that is sorted there's no "go forward".

But I won't discuss it, as it may not be.

krobbie