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x in pattaya
February 11th, 2009, 18:39
Title and text edited to refocus what I (maybe mistakenly) thought was an interesting historical perspective.

I was looking for something on the Internet and stumbled across this article by Peter Tatchell.
The article was apparently written in 1989 ... he mentions that some of the bar boys were able to earn the princely sum of B 4000 a month, twice the average wage in Bangkok then!



THAILAND: GAYNESS, BAR BOYS AND SEX TOURISM
PETER TATCHELL looks at the myths and realities of the country that many call a gay paradise.
There are no laws against homosexuality in Thailand. The capital, Bangkok, boasts over 60 gay bars and sex establishments. It's not uncommon to see gay men walking arm in arm in the street. No-one seems to bat an eye-lid.
This, together with the abundance of beautiful Thai youths, has led many westerners to describe the country as a "gay paradise."
The reality is, alas, somewhat different and more complex. In the opinion of Noi, a 24 year old male nurse at a Bangkok hospital: "European gays are mesmerised by all the pretty boys and night-clubs. They mistakenly assume that this means there is equality for homosexuals in Thailand. In fact, the social integration of gay people is quite ambiguous, even precarious. The toleration of so many gay bars has as much to do with maintaining the profits of the tourist industry as with the social acceptance of homosexuals."
The idea that Thai society has a somewhat contradictory attitude towards homosexuality is echoed by Chuan, a gay university lecturer:
"In Thailand, the distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality is more blurred and tenuous than in the West. Our culture is very gentle. Thai men are much less macho. A lot of them are open to homosexual experiences and these are fairly well tolerated by our society."
"Yet there's little public discussion about homosexuality or awareness of lesbian and gay issues. It's a curious mixture of tolerance, ignorance and evasion."
On a personal level, these conflicting attitudes are most directly experienced within family life. The prevalence of homosexuality, and the pattern of large families, means that almost every Thai family has a gay son. ''They're generally accepted," claims Chuan, 'but their gayness is never talked about." This contradiction, between the acceptance and avoidance of homosexuality, suggests that tolerance is not always based on full acceptance and that it probably has more to do with the Thai tradition of family loyalty than with a liberal sexual morality.
In the view of one of Thailand's leading gay activists and AIDS campaigners, Natee Teerarojjanapongs: "The problem for lesbians and gay men in Thailand is not one of direct state repression. Rather, it is a question of subtle negation through invisibility and a lack of social awareness about homosexual people."
"There's very little overt discrimination against lesbians or gay men. Nevertheless, though many people acknowledge the existence of homosexuality, they are still not used to the idea of openly gay people. Even fewer have any understanding of the notion of lesbian and gay rights."
Quite so. Any attempt at public discussion about homosexual emancipation is usually greeted with laughter and incomprehension, even by most Thai gay men. In a society with no history of anti-homosexual repression, and little public debate about sexuality, the need for "liberation" is not so immediately obvious as in the West.
As a result, there's no organised lesbian and gay movement in Thailand. Activity is confined to a fairly small group of individuals and is primarily focused around campaigns for AIDS prevention; though there are tentative plans by Natee and his friends to launch a gay rights lobby later this year.
"Paradoxically, the western-influenced and overseas-educated Thai are both a source and a solution to the problems of gay people," says John, a British-born gay man who works for the government health service in Bangkok, "The upper class Europeanised Thais are inclined to be the most homophobic, having internalised many of the western prejudices against gays during their sojourns abroad. In contrast, other Thais who have had contact with the western lesbian and gay movements are now in the forefront of the efforts towards greater public visibility. So, for Thai homosexuals, foreign influences have been a double-edged sword, both for ill and for good."
For the few lesbian and gay activists in Thailand, their tactics are very different from the confrontational approach of their western counterparts. This is largely due to Thai cultural traditions which attach great value to conciliation and consensus.
"Aggression and anger are deemed to be acutely embarrassing and very bad manners in our society," according to a 28 year-old designer named Lek. "It would be counterproductive to adopt the militancy of western gay liberationists."
The upshot of this view is that most of the Thai gay activists have embraced the strategy of "the good gay" as a way of winning greater social acceptance.
In an interview in the Thai gay magazine, Midway, one of the country's leading homosexual actors, Varayut Milintajinda, advised the gay community: "Everybody loves good people. So be good people. Do some good work for society, and society will accept our lifestyles."
In recent years, the taboos on the public discussion of sex have begun to break down and gay people have benefited from this. There have been a number of television and newspaper interviews with openly gay people, notably Dr. Seri Wongmontha. A well-known actor, Seri has nevertheless been strongly criticised by other Thai gays for the negative public image he presents of the gay community.
"There's always a pleading and apologetic tone about what he says," reports Lek. "He paints a completely negative and depressing picture of gay life, always focusing on gay people's suffering. Because he never indicates that homosexuals can lead happy and worthwhile lives, he just reinforces the attitude that it's bad to be gay. Perhaps that's the reason he's always being interviewed."
Apparently, like every other positive aspect of gayness in Thailand, the increasing public profile of gay people also has it's down-side.
Bangkok has a huge and thriving gay scene consisting of five discos, seven saunas, ten restaurants and more than forty bars.
"Most of this gay scene revolves around bar boy prostitution which caters for rich Thais and foreign tourists from the West and Asian in countries such as Japan, South Korea and Malaysia," says John. "Indeed, in all of Bangkok, there's only one gay bar which doesn't have men for hire, the Telephone Bar. Even there, a fair proportion of the Thai gays are freelance 'money boys.' The same freelance system also operates at discos such as Harrie's Bar and the Rome Club.
At the "sex for sale" bars, there are 20-60 bar boys. Dressed in G-strings, they take it in turns to dance on an elevated podium; each with a number for easy identification by interested customers.
Some of the raunchier bars, like the Twilight, also put on "live fuck shows" and "big cock parades."
According to Eric Allyn, author of the gay guide, The Men of Thailand , "There are an estimated 2,000 bar boys in Bangkok, most aged 18-25 and either gay or bisexual. A survey in July 1988 by the Thai gay magazine, Morakot, recorded that 30 percent of the bar boys are gay, 30 percent straight, and the rest bisexual."Apart from some of those working at the "live sex" clubs, there's nothing sordid or trashy about the bar boys. They're clean cut, handsome, and mostly very warm-hearted. To these men, being a bar boy is a professional business and they do their job with efficiency, friendliness and obvious pleasure.
Thai social attitudes towards the bar boys have a distinct class bias. Well-off professionals are often highly critical of the sex industry. They can afford to be. Poorer people, while not necessarily approving, are more likely to have a "live and let live" attitude.
"Bar boys tend to be viewed with shame by many middle class people," says Natee. "But the response of the ordinary Thais is usually never mind." They're more understanding because they realise that most of the boys have no alternative employment."
In Eric's opinion, though the job of a bar boy is ''mildly stigmatised," a majority of people accept it as "an appropriate job for the poor." Indeed, among working class Thais, it is often seen as a "glamorous and lucrative profession."
For many, being a bar boy is the difference between poverty and a good standard of living. Most earn around 4,000 Baht (р╕Г100) a month. This is nearly twice the average city wage and three times the typical rural income of 1,300 Baht. Top bar boys can earn over 10,000 Baht (р╕Г250) a month (nearly twice the salary of a university professor).The principle reason for working in the sex industry is poverty. "There's a lot of unemployment and jobs usually pay very little," says Lop, a 20 year old bar boy. "It's a good job and much better than going hungry."
Around three-quarters of the bar boys are from the impoverished peasant communities in the north of the country near the borders with Burma and Laos. The Morakot survey in July 1988 found that half of them ended up working in the bars because they couldn't find any other employment. Most used their bar income to help support their families and a sixth were using it to fund a college education.
"It's the only way I can afford to go to school to get qualifications," reports Jo, a student at Silapakorn University. "My parents could never afford to send me to college and 1 could never get a job that pays this well."
For some bar boys, working in the sex industry is also a way of expressing their gayness. "In my village, there are no gay bars" says Lop He came to Bangkok from the north-east region near the city of Udon Thani in 1987. He adds: "There was no chance of meeting other gay people and having sex. In this job, I meet lots of gay people, have plenty of sex, and get paid for it."
Natee believes that some of the ostensibly straight men who work in the gay bars are repressed homosexuals who haven't been able to come to terms with being gay: "Working as a bar boy is a safe way of legitimising their submerged sexual desires. They can rationalise having sex with other men as a purely business arrangement."
Thailand is renowned for sex tourism. The issue generates tremendous passions, both within the country and abroad; though surprisingly few Thais, even progressive ones, rush to condemn it out of hand.
"Sex tourism is a complex question," says Natee. "It's bad in principle, but for the foreseeable future it's vital to the country's economy and essential to the many poor people who would otherwise have no jobs."
"What choice do the bar boys have?" exclaims the manager of the Garden Bar. "They donтАЩt want to go hungry or become beggars or criminals. They have to do this to survive and in many cases their families also depend on their income. Those who criticise sex tourism and the bar boys, those rich and educated Thais, they do not understand the realities of life faced by the poor."
"Either I sell, my body or I live in the gutter," retorts Chai. "It's wrong for people to condemn me." A nineteen year old who has worked as a freelancer in the Telephone Bar and Rome Club for the last three years, Chai says his family know about his work: "They accept it because it's the only way we can have a better life."
In recent years, the Thai sex industry has been sharply criticised by many people in the West who see it as exploitative and degrading. However, according to a journalist on the Bangkok Post: "`What right do liberal Europeans have to condemn the sex industry? Them telling us what to do is just plain neo-colonialism. It's up to Thais to sort out our own problems."
In response to the suggestion that working as a bar boy involved a loss of dignity, Jo replied curtly: "WhereтАЩs the dignity in doing back-breaking labour seven days a week in a rice field for next to nothing?"
Chuan takes a broader view: "The real problem is not prostitution or sex tourism but the fact that Thailand is an under-developed country with a huge gulf between the very rich and the very poor. The sex industry is merely a symptom of deeper inequalities. Until there is greater economic development and social justice in Thailand, many poor people will have to participate in the sex for sale business. There's simply no other way for them to escape from dreadful poverty."
Chuan sees the bar boy scene as also having another positive side to it: "It is, to some extent, an expression of the resourcefulness and determination of poor people to survive in the face of immense adversity and limited options. Some of the freelancers have shown ingenious entrepreneurial skills; having used their sex earnings to set themselves up in legitimate businesses. The importance of sex tourism to the Thai economy cannot be under-estimated. It's a huge earner of foreign exchange.
In April this year, when the US Seventh Fleet called at the coastal resort of Pattaya, it's estimated that in four days American military personnel spent $US 8 million on sex alone ("A total of 20,000 fucks," according to one US naval officer) and spent a further US $12 million on hotels, restaurants and souvenirs.
In the southern city of Hat Yai, John recalls that Muslim religious pressure led the local authorities to close down all the sex establishments: "It created economic ruin in the region," he says. "Eventually, the bars were ordered to be reopened by the Minister of Tourism because their closure was driving the tourists away and undermining the economy."
"Are the bar boys exploited?" asks Lek. Answering his own question, he replies: "Foreign tourists come here, fall in love and leave broken-hearted. The boys earn a standard of living they could never otherwise enjoy. So `whoтАЩs exploiting who?"
"I don't feel exploited," says Lop. "I offer service which the customers pay for. I don't see it as any more exploitative that the relationship between a hotel worker and a foreign tourist."
Looking around the bars, most of the boys certainly appear happy and full of life. In the Garden Bar disco, about 40 boys work freelance. There's an atmosphere of exuberance and camaraderie. They dance and cuddle together with obvious care and affection for each other. Many share apartments and swap clothes and records.
The club's owners allow the boys to work there free of charge and don't take a cut from their earnings. They also provide "safer sex" information and act as "agony uncles", sorting out personal problems.
"Some of the boys are still in school," says the manager. "We encourage them to get an education and arrange their working hours to fit in with their studies."
"The bars are like a big extended family," according to Lek. "Life for the boys is a far cry from the hardships they'd be suffering if they didn't have these jobs."
John concedes that the gay bar owners make a profit out of the boys: "But if the boys worked outside the sex industry, their employers would still make profits out of them. Making profits is a fact of life of any commercial enterprise. Is making profits out of sex any worse?
Lek feels that compared with the straight sex industry the atmosphere in the bar boy scene is much better: "ThereтАЩs no organised crime or corruption and the boys are treated much better than the girls who work in the heterosexual establishments."
On the question of exploitation, it's tempting to conclude that there's a strong element of puritanism in the way some westerners single out sex tourism for special condemnation. After all, Thailand is a country of many exploitations, most of which arouse far less wrath. Is sexual exploitation any more odious than sweatshop labour, the destruction of tribal communities, or the ripping out of natural resources by multi-national companies?
John believes not. "The sex industry has to be seen in the context of a country with many excesses. Thailand is a free market economy at its most extreme. The huge prostitution business is merely an extension of free market economics into the sexual sphere. It's just one excess among many."
Many European gay men who visit Thailand expect to find a western-style gay scene and end up disappointed. They complain that the bar boy system has completely screwed up Thai gay life. However, the scene in Thailand has never been any different. Indeed, it is the sex industry which has prompted the proliferation of gay clubs.
"It's possible to meet non-commercial Thai guys," says John, "but it's not easy. Furthermore, because this is a poor country, any relationship between a European and a Thai is always going to have a hint of patronage. Truly equal relationships are virtually impossible."
A 32 year old American airline steward, Hugh, who regularly stops over in Bangkok, argues that there's no reason why westerners should expect to get sex without payment in Thailand: "We live in a very unequal world. It's perfectly understandable that poor Thais should expect financial support from rich foreigners. Why shouldn't we pay for sex? We can afford it. When I buy sex in Bangkok, or give gifts to the boys I like I simply put it down as a contribution to the global redistribution of wealth."
Perhaps the saddest aspect of the sex industry is the way in which some Thais, despite genuine desire and commitment, are put off having relationships with Europeans for fear of being thought of as bar boys. This seems to be a particular problem for gay men from middle class backgrounds where the social stigma against prostitution is strongest.
A 21 year old student, Thuch, says: "I like western men, but I'm afraid that if I'm seen with them, everyone will think I'm bar boy. So I end up staying alone."
A gay paradise? Make up your own mind.

The Men of Thailand guide is available from the Long Yang Club,
BCM/ Wisdom, London WC1N 3XX. Price р╕Г14.50.
Gay Times October 1989

I also checked him on Wikipedia. He seems an interesting person ... maybe some of you are already familiar with him?


Wiki notes:
Peter Gary Tatchell (born 25 January 1952) is an Australian-born English human rights activist, who gained international celebrity for his attempted citizen's arrest of Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe in 1999 and 2001, on charges of torture and other human rights abuses.

February 11th, 2009, 19:19
Peter Thatchell is still an active campaigner for human rights and gay rights etc and regularly advertises in the gay press in the UK for donations to support his cause/organisation and every now and again you may well see him actively campaignin. He did (and probably still does) do a lot of good work. I think a lot of people think he is a bit of a looney, but if it wasn't for people like him "sticking their neck out", I don't think we would be as far as we are with promoting gay rights and other rights.

thrillbill
February 11th, 2009, 20:53
--a very detailed, well thought out article. Thanks for sharing this.

February 11th, 2009, 23:43
He's still very active, here he is at last year's London Gay pride.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c156/Jons_photos/Gay_08_01.jpg

I first met him back in the 1990s when I helped out at "Frontliners" an Aids Charity.

The original article in Gay Times had his photos as well. I've got a copy somewhere.

krobbie
February 12th, 2009, 00:35
What a fantastic guy. Committed to a cause/causes. I should be so lucky to be as passionate about such in a global context.

My days of banner waving and Gay Rights marches are long since past and my involvement with the NZ AIDS Foundation in the late 80's -90's has been taken over by more youthful,less jaded young guys and young women. My support these days is through donation. I guess this partially frees me of guilt at not doing more?

Cheers
krobbie

February 12th, 2009, 01:50
I have a deep respect and affection for Peter Tatchell.

You know when some gross old closet queen who never did anything for anybody but themselves is whinging at the dinner party about Tatchell "doing more harm than good", that Peter is getting it right.

He's the Heineken of Gay Activism (he reaches the parts other activists cannot reach). Lang may his lum reek.

joe552
February 12th, 2009, 02:19
He's done a huge amount over the years, not only for gay rights, but human rights in general. I could never have been that committed. A real hero in my eyes.

fedssocr
February 12th, 2009, 06:19
and 20 years later you could pretty much write the exact same article.

Smiles
February 12th, 2009, 09:17
" ... Peter Tatchell was an activist supporting of a number of far left groups in the UK, including the Trotskyist Socialist Workers' Party ..."
Tachell is Nelson/Oliver (of Sawatdee and Baht-Stop)??

Cheers ...

MARK
February 12th, 2009, 11:47
Very interesting piece, and one thing I do still find, still to day in Thailand living here that I did not know when I was on holiday is that many of the gay boys that work for me do have problems being excepted by there family specially if they are the oldest son. Many choose not to tell there fathers and tend to stay longer in Pattaya than visiting home, but many seem to have confided in there mother who seem more understanding.
On a social level I have been told by many officials in different departments, that I hade a good business it was a pity I had opened a Gay bar and not a lady bar I would not have been given so many problems. This really surprised me the first time I was told it but it was not the last.


:silent: :silent: :silent:

x in pattaya
February 12th, 2009, 14:45
I don't normally mind when a thread I started gets hijacked since that is the nature of "conversations." They naturally head off on tangents.

In this case, however, considering the original interesting article about gay life in Thailand twenty years ago (whether you agree with all the observations or not) and the opportunity to compare-and-contrast to the current situation, could we please not go off on the Middle East (about which I also have definite opinions) or political affiliations.

I'm surprised that no one, aside from Mark, has found the content of the article worthy of comment. Too many words? Not enough pictures?

Khor tose
February 12th, 2009, 19:40
I don't normally mind when a thread I started gets hijacked since that is the nature of "conversations." They naturally head off on tangents.

In this case, however, considering the original interesting article about gay life in Thailand twenty years ago (whether you agree with all the observations or not) and the opportunity to compare-and-contrast to the current situation, could we please not go off on the Middle East (about which I also have definite opinions) or political affiliations.

I'm surprised that no one, aside from Mark, has found the content of the article worthy of comment. Too many words? Not enough pictures?

My apology X. I am sorry, you are correct this is hijacking. Mea Culpa.
The article is just great. Twenty years and so little has changed. I would say there is more gay activism now then when he wrote the article, but I think it is a very good look at gays and understanding Thai feelings and culture around this subject.
Not to many words, but the type is very small. I have a big monitor (21") but it is still very hard for me to read. May I suggest you go back and make the type larger. Again, I am sorry. I was just so shocked.

Hmmm
February 12th, 2009, 20:41
and 20 years later you could pretty much write the exact same article.

I think I first read that piece when I first came to Thailand over 10 years ago. And it was already almost 10 years old then.

It's hard to see that gay rights in Thailand have progressed much in 20 years.

It's still pretty much "tolerance but not acceptance" (and for lesbians, not even that). Thai soap operas still have the mindless screaming queen stereotypes. Prominent Thais still sometimes talk about homosexuality as a mental disorder. Teaching institutes have tried to bar gays, believing them to be a danger to children.

But how many gay Thais see any of this as a problem ? They often laugh just as hard at the offensive soap opera characters. Do they really see their own lives as limited because of their sexuality ? When you're poor and gay, are gay rights the least of your worries ? And after all, Thailand has had at least one gay prime minister, and a favourite member of the royal family reportedly 'prefers the company of women'. Of course, very few in mainstream Thai society (i.e. not including the arts) are 'officially' gay. The Thais probably invented 'don't ask don't tell'.

And how do westerners feel about that ? Is Thailand still close enough to the 'gay paradise' ? And even if Thailand is still fundamentally homophobic, at least they're pragmatic enough to keep their homophobia to themselves when there's a quid to be made.

lo-so
February 12th, 2009, 22:05
Personally I cant stand the oik - although a well written piece of prose - to keep it on topic.

February 12th, 2009, 23:54
I don't normally mind when a thread I started gets hijacked since that is the nature of "conversations." ....considering the original interesting article about gay life in Thailand twenty years ago ..... and the opportunity to compare-and-contrast to the current situation, could we please not go off on the Middle East.....I'm surprised that no one, aside from Mark, has found the content of the article worthy of comment. Too many words? Not enough pictures?

For once, 'X', I am surprised if not a little disappointed. There is not much to say about the article, apart from how little has changed. Tatchell, however, was named by you as the subject in the title of the topic and, while some see him as a "hero" to others some of his more recent 'crusades' show him to be nothing more than a bigot and a liar who is prepared to distort anything for his own ends (as has already been discussed on this board in the case of Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni).

Maybe changing the title would change the subject - if it is not too late!

x in pattaya
February 13th, 2009, 07:51
[quote="x in pattaya":3po4ivjc]Tatchell, however, was named by you as the subject in the title of the topic Maybe changing the title would change the subject - if it is not too late![/quote:3po4ivjc]


Mea culpa. For some reason I found the historical perspective interesting and thought people would focus on that rather than him and didn't give much thought to the subject line.

February 13th, 2009, 08:55
Mea culpa. For some reason I found the historical perspective interesting and thought people would focus on that rather than him and didn't give much thought to the subject line.Does this thread mean you approve of sex tourism? Over on Cruising for Sex the poster Nalong who you say is you is attacking someone for being a sex tourist.

Smiles
February 13th, 2009, 08:58
" ... Peter Tatchell was an activist supporting of a number of far left groups in the UK, including the Trotskyist Socialist Workers' Party ..."
Tachell is Nelson/Oliver (of Sawatdee and Baht-Stop)??
Cheers ...

Then Smiles dropped the bomb shell on me by telling me he was Oliver on Baht Stop. He is the main reason I do not post or join in on any Palestinian/Israeli arguments on Baht Stop ... "
You should note that I used a question mark (2 in fact) at the end of a very tongue in cheek smartassism.
He's not of course, but I'm sure he would cuddle up to Tatchell just because of the Trotsky association.

Cheers ... and carry on

x in pattaya
February 13th, 2009, 09:37
a very tongue in cheek smartassism.



How out of character.

Khor tose
February 13th, 2009, 10:34
Well Smiles, it definitely went right over my head. I must learn to read every part of your messages??

I have no interest in a flame war with Baht stop's Oliver so have gone back and deleted my post. X I would like to know how long Peter was in Thailand before he wrote that article. Do you have any idea? I have seen all of these things in that article discussed on msg boards with most of the conclusions very close to Peters. So I am curious how long he was in Thailand before he came to his conclusions, and other then the cited sources, did he have help putting it together?

February 13th, 2009, 15:18
So I am curious how long he was in Thailand before he came to his conclusions, and other then the cited sources, did he have help putting it together?

The original article was illustrated with Peter's own photos which included some taken on Jomtien Beach. It's a long time ago now but I think he was in Thailand for a couple of weeks, part holiday, part research. At the time I was in contact with the author of the Gay Guide mentioned and Peter would have had similar contacts with him and therefore a large number of other people in Thailand.

Sadly the ex pat author and researcher I corresponded with died not long after.

I'm glad to see that from this thread that Peter is still pissing people off, more power to him, he's a good bloke.

February 15th, 2009, 00:39
Back on topic (as titled!)!

The one thing most surprising to me, since the article was written around the time of my first visit to Thailand, is just how little most things have changed in twenty years. The most noticeable difference, in hindsight, is that as he reports at the time many of the boys working in the Garden Bar and elsewhere were aged 16 and no-one, then, could have cared less - something he did not remark on as, presumably, it did not come to his attention.

The article is obviously based very much on what he was told which he took at face value rather than on any "personal research", consequently much of what he reports as fact is at best debatable or misleading and, in some cases, simply wrong. For example:

"There are no laws against homosexuality in Thailand."

Very misleading and incorrect at the time. Homosexuality was legally classified as a mental disorder until 2002, and openly gay homosexuals and transexuals were exempt/barred from military conscription under this 1954 law until 2005.

"It's not uncommon to see gay men walking arm in arm in the street. No-one seems to bat an eye-lid"

20 years ago it was "uncommon" to see any Thai couples "walking arm in arm in the street" and gay Thais doing so were a rarity (as they still are) and would certainly have raised an eye-lid in most places. He clearly took the practices of farangs and Thais, of whatever sexual persuasion, holding hands in Pattaya and at Jomtien to be indicative of Thailand as a whole, which was even more of a misconception then than it is now. This taking of isolated cases and reporting them as being the norm is his greatest failing, as it casts doubt (rightly) on everything he says.

"The prevalence of homosexuality, and the pattern of large families, means that almost every Thai family has a gay son."

Quite what information he based this extraordinary statistic on I cannot imagine!



Going off-topic (sorry!) I could not help noticing his comments on the US Seventh Fleet ("in four days American military personnel spent $US 8 million on sex alone ("A total of 20,000 fucks," according to one US naval officer)" etc) which Brandon echoed almost word for word last month as being something he had read in a recent newspaper clipping. Weird.

February 15th, 2009, 01:45
I've just dug out some old Gay Times and I find that I'd combined two articles in my mind since I last looked at them.

The photos which I thought had accompanied Peter's article actually appeared a few years later in 1994 in a piece entitled "Thailand, Coffee-Boys and culture shock" by Mark Walder.

x in pattaya
February 15th, 2009, 11:04
Back on topic (as titled!)!
"It's not uncommon to see gay men walking arm in arm in the street. No-one seems to bat an eye-lid"

20 years ago it was "uncommon" to see any Thai couples "walking arm in arm in the street" and gay Thais doing so were a rarity (as they still are) and would certainly have raised an eye-lid in most places. He clearly took the practices of farangs and Thais, of whatever sexual persuasion, holding hands in Pattaya and at Jomtien to be indicative of Thailand as a whole, which was even more of a misconception then than it is now. This taking of isolated cases and reporting them as being the norm is his greatest failing, as it casts doubt (rightly) on everything he says.

"The prevalence of homosexuality, and the pattern of large families, means that almost every Thai family has a gay son."

Quite what information he based this extraordinary statistic on I cannot imagine!
.

Yes, both of those things struck me too. You may see some hand-holding, though more often among the very young, but open displays of affection aren't even that common in Bangkok or Pattaya between two Thais.

My friend would probably die of shock if I started groping him in public. I've had boys take my hand to get me across a busy street, which I find amusing since I tend to be more death-defying in traffic than they, but that's the extent of it that I've experienced, with the exception of one off who wanted to hold my hand as we walked home. Of course around Boyztown and at Dongtan some of the really flaky Thai boys and farang are all over each other.

When I first arrived in Africa and then later in the Middle East, I was amazed at the ease with which men & boys would walk about hand-in-hand, but it was totally an act of friendship rather than anything sexual. It also seemed to demonstrate a greater sense of self-assurance than many western men possess. American men especially, and to a lesser extent Europeans, seem to be in constant fear of doing anything that might be misinterpreted regarding their masculinity. On the other hand, western hetero couples seem to have no qualms about nauseating everyone while feeling each other up and slobbering all over one another in almost any setting.

The idea that every Thai family has at least one gay son is also ridiculous. I have no idea what the average number of male children per family is, but even if it were four, which seems high even in larger families 20 years ago, that would mean 1 out of 4 males were queer.

Patexpat
February 15th, 2009, 11:46
When I first arrived in Africa and then later in the Middle East, I was amazed at the ease with which men & boys would walk about hand-in-hand, but it was totally an act of friendship rather than anything sexual. .

Twenty odd years ago this was also very true here in Thailand, to the point I remember seeing Police officers patrolling in Phuket holding hands .... amongst friends it was the norm to show affection, but as stated it was not sexual.

February 15th, 2009, 20:54
You may see some hand-holding, though more often among the very young, but open displays of affection aren't even that common in Bangkok or Pattaya between two Thais.

Oddly enough, despite it being rare outside of Dongtan, my partner holds my hand at virtually every opportunity, no matter where we are whether it be the garden, shopping (either in Lotus or in the Thai markets), even when going around the Temple (either our local one, where I was made very welcome despite being the only farang, or when going on a "pilgrimage"). I used to feel very self-conscious about it (previously only my mother had held my hand, whatever my age) but now I just accept it. When we go abroad, however, I sometimes have to remind him that even in Asia it is not "normal" - In Hong Kong it did attract a few looks when he forgot where we were, but the locals knew he was Thai; in Vietnam, however, when he held my hand any Vietnamese we spoke to who spoke English knew he was Thai, whereas when we simply walked together they spoke to him in Vietnamese!

I am not particularly thick-skinned, neither am I particularly physically threatening, but I have never noticed any disapproving looks or comments (yet!).