COPA BILLS

[gerefan2]

Case 1 Last night, did the mental arithmentic... 1900B, Waiter returns total 2380B. Two items had been inserted into tub..

Case 2. Order bottle of Whisky (1700B). Checked the price day before and told less 10 0/0 for Balcony Card (1570B) . Check Bin 1700B.. Waiter comes back and says cannot use Card for Bottles.,then agreed OK...

Case 3. New Years Eve. Check Bin time and there are 7 items in the tub. Total, my maths, 960 Baht less 10 0/0 for use of Balcony Card = 886 Bt.
Waiter comes back and says cannot use Balcony Card today, Bill 1120B.I ask why not as someone next to me has just used his and why 1120B? Waiter returns and says Sorry Yes, can use . Addition wrong. Bill agreed at 886.

1.Possible Insertion of extra items at the Till.
2 Wrong addition on large Check Bins or many items.
3.Submit Balcony Card at Check Bin time. Waiter goes to Cashier with the card and returns saying it cannot be used for some reason. However card details taken...
Gerefan2

[x in pattaya]

How unusual someone using his first post here to smear a local business!


Case 2. Order bottle of Whisky for Gay Street Party (1700B). Checked the price day before and told less 10 0/0 for Balcony Card (1570B) .

Nothing surprising here. I'm sure we all check the price of a bottle of whisky the day before we go to a bar.

[gerefan2]

No not my first post!
Look me up under gerefan
I had trouble with the new logon a few weeks ago and have had to change my name slightly.
The reason for checking the price was merely a question asked when reserving a table for the event the day before!
Gerefan...2!

How unusual someone using his first post here to smear a local business!


Case 2. Order bottle of Whisky for Gay Street Party (1700B). Checked the price day before and told less 10 0/0 for Balcony Card (1570B) .

Nothing surprising here. I'm sure we all check the price of a bottle of whisky the day before we go to a bar.
Oh come on X the guy a newbie and you read to much in between the lines ,he not rubbishing a business it a waiter ,how i read it he was there the night before so he noticed the prices ...

[catawampuscat]

Like X, I am also suspicious of newbies but reason for newbie status
makes sense and suspicion eases off.
Actually, the scam makes sense too and is clever if it is indeed in play.

One farang I know doesn't use the check bin system and insists on paying
for each drink as he is served.. He never has a problem..

I have also heard of a different scam, where a farang will find a way to slip his
check bin into another farang check bin cup or even direct the waiter to do so. If caught, he applogizes for the mix up and the Thai waiter gets the blame.

I have never had a problem at Copa nor have I heard of anyone else but
with several incidents happening, one should be more suspicious of the
the waiter/cashier than the poster, imho.. :cat:

[x in pattaya]

Like X, I am also suspicious of newbies ...

I have never had a problem at Copa nor have I heard of anyone else but
with several incidents happening, one should be more suspicious of the
the waiter/cashier than the poster, imho.. :cat:



I am sending a copy of this to the management of COPA so that they may take action and comment here.

Assuming the waiters/cashier are running a scam, why not speak to the owner first and if nothing satisfactory results, then publish the "facts."

I know of one bar, now out of business, where the waiters/cashier simply reused the same checks several times during the night. When it came to tallying up the paper checks at the end of the evening, the total would have come to less than the cash received (and pocketed by the waiters). It wouldn't have hurt the customers involved, but siphoned off cash from the owner and, if observed, would be useful for the owner to have known about.

I'm not defending Copa nor the waiters, but a lot of these guys have had a couple of years of basic education and I would imagine a lot of screw ups are unintentional. If it is a scam, the owner is probably losing too. Rather than rushing to a public forum to make comments which may further hurt the business, why not deal directly with management FIRST and go public second?

[gerefan2]

I hope I have now clarified the business of (not) being a newbie.
I did indeed go to the management after the episode of the bottle of whisky and the balcony card reduction not being applied. He is the one who agreed that it should have been and ordered the waiter to make the reduction.
Gerefan (2!).

The waiter and cashier will reduce the 10% for the record to the owner but try to get the full money from the customer. They will notice your member card number and come back - charge you the full amount and the 10% going to the pocket of the waiter or/and cashier.
The COPA Bar is a well running bar and if you are outside at the bar counter it's maybe more possible that you get invited for a drink by Peter or Glenn as to get cheated.
Thanks to them to bring so much quality to Boyztown.

[luvthai-2]

Garafan . Why are you hiding behind a new name as a new member? You come in here to trash a business but aren't man enough to say who you are. Did you talk to the owners giving the a chance to rectify the problems?

[TrongpaiExpat]

I appreciate your posting the details of what happen. I don't even know where the Copa is located but it's good general information.

I also have the Balcony card and it gets refused just about everywhere I try to use it, other than at the Balcony. I never thought it might be a scam. Some waiters seem to think the Balcony card is some sort of credit card then as it gets passed around and around someone tells me it's not good. I then explain it's a discount card and the response is, "no discount".

I told you remember "THEY THAI THEY LIE!"

[x in pattaya]

Just a quick note to the Administrator --

It will be hard to grow your user base if new users are attacked simply for being new to the Board, as demonstrated here. Why would anyone return?.

If you can get beyond your condescending, advice-from-on-high mode, you might notice that the newbies who are attacked are those whose first post smears a business or is obviously nothing more than a thinly veiled advert or which attacks the message of someone who has been a regular poster. If you could engage your self-described "hyper intellect" you might manage to figure out that some people use a new registration to hide their identity or for no other purpose than to appear on the scene to promote something ( or in your case, promote yourself) and then disappear.

The newbie who suggested the use of Firefox was not attacked because he used his first post to make a constructive comment.


but I'm pretty much outta here anyway -- off to look into different countries.

I'm sure they'll appreciate the warning.


... but at least I know when it's time to leave.

No, you obviously didn't. It seems this is at least your second announced/threatened departure. There'll probably be more.

[gerefan2]

Guys
I will explain again , I am not a newbie
Please read the third post of this thread for an explantion of my slight name change.
Gerefan2
WAS.... gerefan.

[bao-bao]

Can we concentrate on the actual thread?
We could, but it flies in the face of board tradition. :cheers:

As someone who doesn't drink alcohol I don't want to come off as sounding unsympathetic, but being sloshed isn't really conducive to keeping track of the check bin, your wallet OR your whereabouts, for that matter. Not that you were, gerefan2, but in many posts here the goal is to begin drinking upon exiting immigration and remain numb until you head for the last security check outside the boarding gates on the way home. That's just an open door for anyone looking to take advantage.

If folks looked over the tab before they turned it over to the waiter for "official" tallying they might catch some errors in advance. If there's a question after they return it and tell you the total, ask about it and have it re-done, as you did. From my own experience it isn't so much what we say but how we say it - especially there in Thailand.

When I'm with a friend there, they invariably grab the check when they see I'm about ready to leave and check it over for me. If the total comes back differently than they think it should have they calmly speak up for me and save face for the waiter - something I appreciate.

If there's a problem you can't get resolved with the waiter, ask for the mamasan or (better still) the owner, but my suggestion would be to do it in a way that you'd want to be addressed if the tables were turned.

Copa isn't staffed with accountants, so give them leeway for the occasional error. Your case sounds like more than coincidence, but is it worth raising a stink about? Probably not, when there are calmer alternatives. If you really think theyтАЩre out to cheat you, try another club.

I don't recall visiting Copa myself, so will deliberately avoid making any comment on the specific bar below.

1 A Newbie making a first post criticising an establishment does not necessarily mean the author is unreliable.
I've had cases where goods have failed prematurely & the supplier has not provided satisfactory service. If it's really bad, I make a point of registering on the appropriate forum to share the information.

2 I figure most people reading the post would still go to the bar in question, but watching their bills more carefully. Hopefully the results would be posted here, to end any arguments.

3 Club Temple in Prague is known for scamming bills -I've had it myself. Numerous people have posted that on the web & this enables new visitors to be on their guard.
If a significant number of people report scamming in particular Thai bars, this can only help to discourage the practice taking hold in Thailand, as the customers will go elsewhere.

So I figure we should encourage people who were scammed & sober enough to recognise it to post here.
I doubt scammers will only target one customer.
Incidentally, Gaythailand.com has a second poster reporting a case of overcharging at this bar.

[joe552]

It was a go-go boy who encouraged me to always 'check bin' before I paid it. I now make a rough guess (I don't carry a calculator) by adding the paper dockets. I've never had a docket I didn't recognise, but I think it's important to check. I would in any other country. I know my first time in Thailand, I was very naive and just believed everyone was honest, but dishonesty can happen anywhere. As can genuine mistakes.
I think the lesson from gerefan2 is to always check the bin before you pay it. No loss of face on either side.

[jinks]

In all bars........

I always pass the bin to boy special and he tells me what to pay and whether or not to add a tip.
If one is to be added he then says if it is to go in the bin or directly into our waiters hand.

I will be at a loss for the first day next trip.... I have to replace him :pale:

[x in pattaya]

In all bars........
I always pass the bin to boy special and he tells me

Yes, when in the company of same, more often in restaurants but sometimes in bars, he always carries the cash and performs on-site audits before the waiter can get his hands on the checks. My only job is to monitor what tips he gives the waiter. Without my supervision, his range of tips start off at about 5 baht and would peak at B 20.



So I figure we should encourage people who were scammed & sober enough to recognise it to post here.


Good point. I would assume the would-be scammers take into account how mao the customer is when deciding what they can get away with. On the other hand, people who knock back a few litres of Mekhong Whiskey and are totalling the checks in the dim light available while face-down beneath the tables may not be the best judges of who is scamming who.

[Patexpat]

It really doesn't do gerefan2 credibility any good when in his original post he is selective with his facts, and only adds this:


I did indeed go to the management (the sober one) after the episode of the bottle of whisky and the balcony card reduction not being applied. He is the one who agreed that it should have been and ordered the waiter to make the reduction.Gerefan (2!). several posts later.

As far as I can see, there was a problem, and the owners sorted it which seems fair enough to me.

I have never been scammed at Copa or its predecessor, but if there is a problem that is drawn to the attention of the owners in a timely fashion I'm pretty sure that they would try and sort it.

Owners suffer from not only being scammed by their staff, but also some of their customers (I know of one case where the customer ATE the check bin to try to avoid paying it!). From my experience I never cease to be amazed at the inventive way that staff and at times customers try to cheat the system ....

Because scamming only damages a business any serious business owner would take steps to try and prevent this happening... and all we can do is to check our check bins very carefully!

[nanette]

I think gerefan2 is a responsible consumer, and being one he checks and compare prices, tally his bills, and brings up matters relating to his checks, and on top of that he warns other consumers of any discrepancy he comes across. Well done sir! The owners of Copa should be aware of matters relating to customer complaints, and it's only right for gerefan2 to bring it up here for the benefit of both forum readers & the management, if they choose to see things positively.
We have benefited(at least I have), in one way or another from some of the ideas & advice given by forum members. :flower:

[x in pattaya]

... it's only right for gerefan2 to bring it up here for the benefit of both forum readers & the management, if they choose to see things positively.


If you want to bring something to the attention of management, why post it in a place where they may never see it?

Awhile ago someone posted some personal observations about a real estate concern in Pattaya which lead to threats of law suits and the demise of at least one gay Thailand message board ... one of the best at the time. Since this site is, I guess, hosted by someone in the US, that isn't likely to happen, but the reason the lawsuit was threatened was because the business involved felt its reputation was in jeopardy.

The comments in this case may be accurate and done with the best of intentions, but how are we to discern the difference between valid comments and hatchet jobs orchestrated by vindictive cretins with their own agendas? And, the thread title suggests this is a scam intentionally run by the business rather than a POSSIBLE scam undertaken by some waiters.

Again in this case there apparently was a good reason for the person to appear to be a newbie, when in fact he isn't, but generally if someone's first post slings mud on a local business it raises reasonable questions about its validity. If it were someone recognized as a frequent poster who was not known for wild accusations, it might have been considered more reasonable.

I wonder how many of you have ever had to manage a business, an organization or a staff, especially with all the additional baggage that comes with language issues, educational issues and, of course, arbitrary policing?

I've never been in Copa and only visited Splash a couple of time many years ago, so my concern has nothing to do with them. Obviously businesses here, particularly those in the sex biz, fold regularly for a variety of reasons, mostly financial I assume. And most are probably run by people with little expertise running a business of this sort. If your aim is to improve service and encourage businesses that you enjoy visiting, rushing to a public forum in the first instance seems a poor tactic.

As Warren Buffett said: "It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently. "

He was, of course, speaking of multi-billion dollar corporations and the admonition was to management, but even in a precarious business of running a bar, massage place or restaurant in Thailand, good or bad word-of-mouth can make or break a place.

[Smiles]

" ... Yes, when in the company of same, more often in restaurants but sometimes in bars, he always carries the cash and performs on-site audits before the waiter can get his hands on the checks ... "
Yes, my guy checks every bill and has been doing so for many a moon. It's a service which really comes in handy in Very Dark Places, like back water music bars.
As far as I know we've only had one incident where it looked like an attempt at bill-padding, but even then I suspect it was a legitimate mistake.

But having a Thai guy look over the check bin is an excellent idea in every case.

Cheers ...

But having a Thai guy look over the check bin is an excellent idea in every case.
Cheers ...

Since when the Thais can count without any calculater?

[x in pattaya]

But having a Thai guy look over the check bin is an excellent idea in every case.
Cheers ...

Since when the Thais can count without any calculater [sic]?

Ah yes. Another view of the Thai population based on a limited knowledge of a few people who have little education and who work solely in the sex/booze trade. Of course it all evens out. Most Thais assume all farang are drink-to-you-puke, sexually perverted, sticky shits. And we all know that's not true. Or do we?

[lonelywombat]

But having a Thai guy look over the check bin is an excellent idea in every case.
Cheers ...

Since when the Thais can count without any calculater?

I was not going to add a comment as I do not have a boy special. I do have a lot of offs and usually they check the bin and the change for me. Same if we go out for dinner or ride the baht bus.I have always been angry at the comments of the dishonesty of thais. My experience has been they are 100% trustworthy.

The one thing I have noticed when we visited the old Kaos, was the waiter would slip a note under the plate as his "tip in advance" My off picked this and told me in advance, Me check bin.

[joe552]

I too don't have a BS, but do trust my off to check the bin. It's in their interest to keep me happy.

I too don't have a BS, but do trust my off to check the bin. It's in their interest to keep me happy.
Sure they take care and make sure that later is enough left for them. If you let the Thais giving tip the staff will never get or just a little bit. I prefer to pay and tip by myself and have a look also time to time for the bills.
However - you are right They are here to keep us happy and they do very well.
I dont want to blame the single Thai for the very bad education in this country - Thats the system and not the Thai (waiter or boy) we are dealing with. We are lucky to got a better education.

Going back to the orginal post, I suspect the waiters are not paying attention to detail too much. It happens anywhere, it's a busy club and they are probably not dotting their i's and crossing their t's. They are probably not sure as to rules and when they apply with regard to the "card" etc. If there were scams going on, I'm sure there would be more money involved and different ways. The waiters are not stupid, I don't believe they are interested in sharing a couple of hundred baht between a dozen of them at the end of the night (or whatever it is). Now if there were going to be a scam, they would scrap the "ticket" or put a fake one in or something along those lines for say a bottle of whiskey for example. They want to make 1000 bht and more. Anyway, I believe it was just a coincidence that these things were happening, they were just being a bit lapse - probably need supervising. I suspect also business owners create their own scams I'm sure. All the add-ons in restaurants; advertising one price for a drink and having to pay more when you get inside a joint; more "off" fee if the guy you are offing is special; the list goes on and on. Don't just blame the locals, the falangs are up to it too.

[jolyjacktar]

Ive always paid for the drink as it comes, then if i want to leave a tip i do when ive finished and leave, never had a problem this way as the same is done in UK, no bins here

Most Thais assume all farang are drink-to-you-puke, sexually perverted, sticky shits. And we all know that's not true. Or do we?We don't know it about you. We usually don't know anything about anyone who posts here unless we meet them. We can only make assumptions or generalizations such as "most Thai". Do most Thais think that? What's the basis for such a statement?

[Brad the Impala]

Most Thais assume all farang are drink-to-you-puke, sexually perverted, sticky shits. And we all know that's not true. Or do we?We don't know it about you. We usually don't know anything about anyone who posts here unless we meet them. We can only make assumptions or generalizations such as "most Thai". Do most Thais think that? What's the basis for such a statement?


In your haste to carp, did you miss the "or do we"?

Good point. I would assume the would-be scammers take into account how mao the customer is when deciding what they can get away with. On the other hand, people who knock back a few litres of Mekhong Whiskey and are totalling the checks in the dim light available while face-down beneath the tables may not be the best judges of who is scamming who.

That's probably the case. I've been quite heavily scammed in Club Temple in Prague, when very weary plus slightly feeling the effects of 3~4 drinks. On subsequent visits, I've made a point of visibly checking the "consumption card" before handing it to the guy on the till & there have been no problems. The same rules probably apply in Thailand.

I do take issue with the criticism of the original poster. Firstly, he reported this happened more than once. Also, there's another Thai forum with a second poster reporting a problem at the same bar.
It's good to share such information, as everyone can either choose to just take care & avoid being scammed, or ignore the advice. Up to you.
Also, any customer who is scammed should be at liberty to report it to the management, the internet, both or neither.

[TrongpaiExpat]

From the Balcony news letter 1 Feb 2009:

"Unfortunately we have also lost one discount and that is at the Copa showbar in Pattaya. The owners have written to us saying: тАЬin light of recent comments made on various forums regarding The Copa, to avoid any more nonsense, we have decided not to accept any Discount/Loyalty cards in the bar. We still accept them at the Hotel.тАЭ

I guess someone at the Copa reads this forum.

I had the same problem one night at Dick's Cafe in early January. I ordered a soda water and a noodle dish. Two items. The total of which should have been B150, but the check came back for more than B200. I looked through the receipts to find they had added one for a Chang beer. There was no "Oh, Im very sorry." The waiter just grabbed the receipt tray from me and walked it back to the cash register. The expression on his face as he did so was not apologetic at all. It was more like, "Fuck, I didn't get away with it this time."

The expression on his face as he did so was not apologetic at all. It was more like, "Fuck, I didn't get away with it this time."I must get to know you - I usually have no idea what other people are thinking from the look on their faces, and I have long practised the inscrutable look myself. However you seem to have mastered the ability to read people's faces and can tell instantly what they are thinking. As a matter of interest what is the difference between the "Fuck, I didn't get away with it this time" look and the "I've really fucked up this time" look?

As a matter of interest what is the difference between the "Fuck, I didn't get away with it this time" look and the "I've really fucked up this time" look?

As the waiter is unlikely to have been the one who made up the bill, and the expression was made as he "walked it back to the cash register" so would have been rather hard to interpret from behind, I can't really see the relevance of whatever expression he made - but there again, neither can I see the point of whingeing about it here when a problem has been corrected once it has been pointed out, or whingeing about it here instead of pointing it out at the time. Ho hum .....

The initial post used a factual style to describe several instances of overcharging, without adopting a whinging tone (IMHO).

The whinging has arrived later in the thread, as is quite common around here.

Several instances of over charging sounds rather systematic, so the original post is exactly the sort of thing that should be flagged up here. For the benefit of everyone. Or is that just the majority of us who don't like being over charged?

Also, it's a good reminder that in the days of the internet, it's more difficult for companies to get away with overcharging or other service issues.

Furthermore, if the a companies management follow this portal & really care about customer service, they could investigate for themselves & in the event that certain staff are scamming customers, they could fire those responsible. Then everyone's a winner. Or rather everyone that deserves to be.

I still recognised this could be a fine bar, with honest management & just one incompetent or dishonest waiter.
Others may reach the same conclusion, but armed with the information from the original post, they are less likely to be scammed. That has to be a positive?

I'm surprised that there are at least two people on this thread that admit to being unable to reading facial expressions. It is not a difficult skill to learn, and, in fact, you probably do it yourself everyday. I did consider posting something about my bill episode soon after it happened but decided against it because, yes, it would have sounded like whining. And since I caught it as it happened, there was no actual theft committed. But since this thread seems to have gone nuclear, I decided to add my anecdote to it. And that's all it is. One anecdote. If you want to dismiss, please do so. If you want to pretend that facial expressions somehow do not show what a human being is feeling, then please do so.

If you want to pretend that facial expressions somehow do not show what a human being is feeling, then please do so.Hence the phrase "poker face"

[x in pattaya]

[quote="x in pattaya":1l3a28n3]Most Thais assume all farang are drink-to-you-puke, sexually perverted, sticky shits. And we all know that's not true. Or do we?We don't know it about you. We usually don't know anything about anyone who posts here unless we meet them. We can only make assumptions or generalizations such as "most Thai". Do most Thais think that? What's the basis for such a statement?


In your haste to carp, did you miss the "or do we"?[/quote:1l3a28n3]


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