'Grim reaper' gets 18 years for attempting to spread HIV

[lonelywombat]

I have raised previously a few boys in Soi 4 that have HIV that are determined to infect as many farang as possible, in retaliation. This court case is believed the first in the world to inflict a heavy penalty . It gives a new interpretation of the word breeder, which is the name attached to the practice It also puts into perspective all those who demand go go boys have medicals, but want to bareback

'Grim reaper' gets 18 years for attempting to spread HIV

* Kate Hagan
* Melbourne Age January 17, 2009


Michael John Neal.

A COBURG man described by a judge as a "grim reaper" has been sentenced to more than 18 years' jail for deliberately trying to infect others with HIV, following the first prosecution of its type in Victoria.

Michael John Neal, 50, pursued his "deviant sexual practices" despite a series of warnings from Victoria's Health Department over five years that he practise safe sex, County Court judge David Parsons said yesterday.

He said Neal, who was diagnosed HIV positive in 2000, was motivated to infect others with the virus to create a larger pool of sexual partners with whom he could have unprotected sex. Judge Parsons said Neal had shown no remorse and had failed to apologise to his victims for the great hurt he had inflicted upon them. "You sought to become your own version of the grim reaper," he said.

He said Neal needed to accept his obligation to provide "full, proper and timely notification" of his HIV status. "Until such time the community, and particularly the gay community, needs protection from you."

A jury found Neal guilty of 15 charges related to 11 victims, after a two-month trial last year. They included eight of attempting to infect a person with HIV.

Neal pleaded guilty to 11 other counts, including producing and possessing child pornography, and trafficking methylamphetamine.

He met his victims on the internet or at gay beats or sex venues, and either denied or failed to disclose his HIV status.

The case shone a spotlight on the State Government's approach to monitoring and containing the spread of HIV and ultimately led to the sacking of Victoria's chief health officer, Dr Robert Hall.

Judge Parsons said Neal continued offending until his arrest in 2006 and had made no effort since to grapple with his "aberrant sexual proclivities", particularly with relation to child pornography.

Neal has been isolated within the prison system. He told a psychiatrist in 2004 there was a dark side to him that enjoyed infecting people with HIV, and his sex life was none of the Health Department's business.

He continued to have unprotected sex despite the department serving him with three letters and four orders under the Health Act between November 2001 and April 2006.

Restrictions the Health Department had placed on Neal's movements were relaxed after he wrote to the chief health officer, Robert Hall, in 2005 telling him that his viral loads were undetectable and he was not able to pass on HIV.

Then health minister Bronwyn Pike stood down Dr Hall after it emerged he had not acted despite knowing Neal posed a serious risk to public health, and had ignored advice from an expert advisory panel.

Outside court, Detective Sergeant Eric Harbis, of the sexual crimes squad, said Neal had played a game of Russian roulette with his victims, whom he commended for their courage in coming forward.

Judge Parsons sentenced Neal to 18 years and nine months' jail, and ordered him to serve 13 years and nine months before being eligible for parole.

[MARK]

Sorry I have to agree with lonelywombat there are many boys out here in pattay with HIV that wonтАЩt stop working not because they need money for medication, but are more intent on revenge.

Surely someone cannot infect you unless you allow yourself to become infected? Unless maybe they're poking holes in their condoms or surreptitiously removing them? I always use my own condoms and make sure it's on before proceeding (and periodically during).

[catawampuscat]

Agreed that the connection to Gay Thailand is not one of the strongest, but
the message is pertinent to Gay Thailand. I cannot imagine that there are armies of angry HIV + Thais guys attempting to spread the virus.
Odds favour the possibility that they contacted the virus via needles, sex
with females or other Thai men, but one can see a situation where the
blame can be fixed on the Westerner.
As our new prolific poster brandon has been saying and the facts demonstrate,
tops are at far less risk than bottoms and using condoms further reduces that risk.
Any bottoming farang who doesn't want the boys to use condoms
is just asking for problems and is beyond help.
As for piercing condoms with holes and all that, the odds of running into a
'grim reaper' must be microscopic and should not figure high in ones mind.

The press loves these types of stories as they try to scare people and
use the boogie man approach. Safer sex is saner sex.

The Australian 'grim reaper' deserves to have it cut off and shoved down his throat and I wonder if he will continue spreading his virus in prison where unsafe sex is the norm and rape is called shower time. Castration a good idea too.. :cat:

It gives a new interpretation of the word breeder, which is the name attached to the practice

I doubt if this will take as in several communities of English usage the more common use as "practising heterosexual", is well established.

Speaking as someone who always takes precautions, I once had a "local" condom split. It was immediately noticed by both parties and replaced.

I have encountered people recently who advocate fist fucking and barebacking as safe, much in the style of our vociferous newbie. In my opinion their style of discourse and social interactions bear some of the hallmarks of a cult.

Lonelywombat is to be thanked for raising again the real prospect that there are people about in Silom & Sathorn whose motivations are not the same as those of the majority. One of the saddest cases is the former Dom, still in hints of leather in the bathouse, whose silicone has transformed his penis to the shape of a tennis ball.

Odds favour the possibility that they contacted the virus via needles, sex
with females or other Thai men .....

What "odds"?? Based on what evidence?? That is your opinion, nothing more, unless you have anything to support it. If you do, I will apologize and withdraw.


As our new prolific poster brandon has been saying and the facts demonstrate,
tops are at far less risk than bottoms and using condoms further reduces that risk.

That is exactly why I said Braindead was dangerous - some idiot will not only believe what he says, but quote him as an authority. Not only is this a watered down version of what he has been saying, but the "facts" and the vast majority of medical opinion say that tops are at "less" risk - not "far less", which is very different.


the odds of running into a 'grim reaper' must be microscopic and should not figure high in ones mind.

Anything that can kill me, and over which I have full control, figures high in my mind.

I have encountered people recently who advocate fist fucking and barebacking as safe, much in the style of our vociferous newbie. In my opinion their style of discourse and social interactions bear some of the hallmarks of a cult.


I won't necessarily disagree here; it's the "Cult of People who like to have Great Sensations while they have Sex." As you've likely forgotten, the feel of a tight, wet mouth or ass around your dick is an amazing pleasure; not at all like having latex or polyurethane, impervious to HIV, sensations of moisture and heat (greatly reducing the ovearall pleasure, as the only feeling you get is pressure), around your dick. Actually, polyurethane condoms do transmit heat.

I don't see how people are now getting HIV from fist fucking, as I've seen & done plenty but never where the active partner(s) doesn't have long, rubber (not latex) gloves on, or at least long surgical gloves. It's standard practice. I'm not sure where the transmission is occurring there, but many theories of disease I've seen here mystify me.

The ill-conceived campaign of fear has had a number of aberrant and negative effects on people having sex, as fear only works so long as a motivator (ask our former President/VP). Started out guys heard if they didn't wear condoms they'd get AIDS and die, and many of us saw people dieing of aids, so there was an effect at first. But as treatment improved, but the message remained "get AIDS and die -- wear those condoms or else" and young guys, who didn't live through the early years, noticed these 40 & 50 year old guys with AIDS out having a great time they started questioning things. Incorrectly, but it happened. So they didn't wear condoms so much. Now, in San Diego, a city with many adorable and happily active gays guys, there are epidemics of syphillis, HEP-C and HIV, spreading at a higher rate than 10 years ago, because people incorrectly perceive it as a chronic disease.

Anyway, this was accompanied by all kinds of bad behavior, including "survivor guilt" where if you didn't have AIDS you felt guilty. This gave way to Poz Parties, where a host would get a number of guys together like for an orgy. The host knew that some were HIV+, some HIV-, but didn't tell anyone at the party. Like the old "key parties," everyone's name went into a hat, everyone knew half the guys were Poz, and the bottoms picked names for a Top to fuck them, no choice, no question, and everyone coupled 2-3 times per party. The idea was that people wanted to become positive. I thought these were more a form of suicide and did not participate, but for a time they were not uncommon.

We now have more "breeding" parties where any number of tops will fuck the same bottom or two, the goal being to fill him up with cum until it runs out of his butt (with his assistance). I do enjoy these for their pornographic value, but only participate if I can be "first one in," as I don't want my urethra touching another guy's cum which is already there. Usually people don't want to go first 'cause they like the feeling of fucking into a cum-wet hole, so it all works out. Or, guys advertise on Craigs List "Taking loads at xxx address, door open, come upstairs, I'll be blindfolded on the bed, dump your load & either leave or get back in line." On any given day there are probably 3 or 4 different ads like this, more on the weekends; also, BB orgies are scheduled every 2 weeks and there's at least one Polyamory party per weekend. Personally, I'm not so into the orgies (had plenty when I was a kid) but do like the PolyParties.

There are certainly POZ guys bb'ing to try to make folks HIV+, for whatever reason. Revenge, anger, someone on a BBS posted something that made them angry, mad because they're married, or broke, or whatever, turning sex into a weapon. I think it all rather dysfunctional (except what I've defined, so you may call me delusional), but there is so little compassion toward those who have MSM sex in the US I doubt anyone would get into trouble infecting another male partner. Some ministers and priests actively promote killing gays anyway. As the Rev. James Dobson would say, "Remember, God loves killing fags." Amen.

I rest my case.

Please sir, if you have real knowledge of anyone intentionally infecting others, one would hope you would take some action. I would recommend that one contact the local Thai organizations such as Rainbowsky and SWING. SWING in particular, for the situation that you describe on Soi 4 (assuming you are referring to money boys), as they are expert in the field and have many ex- and current male sex workers directly involved in outreach work for HIV prevention.

PS - Having been involved in HIV/AIDS for many, many years, having watched the development of "barebacking" in the early 90s, and even the sex parties in some US cities where the 'gift' of HIV was intended to be given and received -- willingly though, I have NEVER heard the term 'breeding' or 'breeder' in relation to an act that is intended to infect another person with HIV.

[Beachlover]

This is all unbelievably sick.

This is all unbelievably sick.

Ditto. While generally I applaud and understand the lack of moderation here, one sick poster has succeeded in totally changing the board's main content and direction. What is the possible connection of any of this thread with Thailand? It clearly belongs, at best, in another forum - unless there is some moderation here (in all senses of the word) I can see the demise of this board as the primary site for gay Thailand.

[lonelywombat]

This is all unbelievably sick.

Ditto. While generally I applaud and understand the lack of moderation here, one sick poster has succeeded in totally changing the board's main content and direction. What is the possible connection of any of this thread with Thailand? It clearly belongs, at best, in another forum - unless there is some moderation here (in all senses of the word) I can see the demise of this board as the primary site for gay Thailand.

It seems we have hit a raw nerve here. Perhaps there should have been some latin quotations or stories of your famous achievements. Look at the pompous postings you have made and you talk about the demise of this board

There have been long discussions in the last week or so about fisting, rimming, topping,bottoming and condoms, other unpleasant practices and you have not batted an eyelid This was quoting a respected newspaper report of a major trial that has highlighted the dangers of unprotected sex,bare backing and a new breed of sickies that want to increase their sexual partners pool . I do not see it as a sick or irrelevant thread, as unsafe sex in LOS is being discussed on this and other forums almost daily.

I rather feel that those who would like to sweep this topic into a darker corner are playing ostriches. Yes, it's distasteful, but in my view it's better in the clear light of honest discourse than the dark corners of ignorance and deceit.

[andrewcraig]

This is not the only case before the courts in OZ. Any lawyers care to offer an opinion about precedents.

My very good friend who is not a barrister, just a solictor in commercial practice, thought this will have a huge impact on the non US legal system. It seems strange to me that a court in Australia can be quoted as a precedent in the UK and other civilized countries.

It seems we have hit a raw nerve here. Perhaps there should have been some latin quotations or stories of your famous achievements. Look at the pompous postings you have made and you talk about the demise of this board

"We"? You may be a lonely old queen, but that hardly makes you royalty.

In hindsight I can see that I should have been more specific. While I fail to see the relevance of this topic to this particular forum (it is clearly a Global issue, not a Thai one), I am certainly not trying to "sweep this topic into a dark corner" as it may have appeared. The "sick" posts I was referring to were those made by one poster, whose posts and topics of choice you have obviously also noted and whose posts have gradually (in terms of number, not time) become increasingly crude and, to me, sick, and have begun to dominate the board and change its character and direction; I found those in this particular thread to be the crudest and sickest I have read on this board and to be out of character with the board. While you may enjoy them I find them distasteful and the "ignore" feature can be of only limited use as they are often quoted by others to the point where they are starting to dominate the board.

Only time will tell if they spell the demise of the popularity of this board in its present (previous) form if they continue, particularly where Gay Thailand is concerned, but (although I have not counted) I would guess that there have been more posts on this forum in the last fortnight concerning barebacking/fisting/dom & sub, etc than on any subjects solely to do with Thailand (gay or otherwise). You may like it that way, I am simply saying that I, personally, do not.

3 months ago you PM'd me asking me to "Please back up your statement" concerning what I claimed you had said in a post. I did, quoting it and giving a link (to which I neither expected nor received the courtesy of a reply). Now I will ask you, publicly, to do the same and to give links to any posts I have made with "stories of (my) famous achievements". If those posts have disappeared (as yours mysteriously had, although unfortunately for you it was quoted in another post) then just a link to the topic or even your specific recollection will do. As the old school motto goes (and I am sure that will get 555's attention) "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus".

To get back on topic, BPH have extended their discounts on check-ups and are offering HIV checks (blood, COBAS 6000 System, ECLIA Method, results in approximately one hour) for 540 baht until the end of this month.

Always so much hysteria on this subject! Even if there are legions of HIV+ persons crusading to infect others (I don't think so), who cares? Beach Bunny nailed it in the third post of this thread: "Surely someone cannot infect you unless you allow yourself to become infected? " BINGO! You do not become infected if you do not cooperate. Education, not futile criminalization, will stop HIV.

And, Brandon, have you ever heard the phrase "TMI (Too Much Information)"? Well you're there, my friend. Yuk! :pukeright:

[lonelywombat]

Always so much hysteria on this subject! Even if there are legions of HIV+ persons crusading to infect others (I don't think so), who cares? Beach Bunny nailed it in the third post of this thread: "Surely someone cannot infect you unless you allow yourself to become infected? " BINGO! C Education, not futile criminalization, will stop HIV.

And, Brandon, have you ever heard the phrase "TMI (Too Much Information)"? Well you're there, my friend. Yuk! :pukeright:

unless you allow yourself to become infected? you are assuming that thai boys working in bars know what they are doing to earn a shared room and some food in their belly. most do not earn enough to do that or to send money back home

your argument reminds me of the excuses that bare back riders use on these forums

your argument reminds me of the excuses that bare back riders use on these forums

That's quite a leap, and you're putting words in my mouth. My argument of "education not criminalization" is simply the mantra of AIDS prevention organizations and medical societies worldwide. I don't know if BBers use it as an 'excuse' (I suspect you are wrong there yet again) but that's irrelevant, unless you are permitting a reactionary stance against BBers to substitute for rational, workable solutions to this problem.

.... you're putting words in my mouth....

One of LW's nasty little habits - like failing to back up his posts when he lies about what you have said.

[krobbie]

And, Brandon, have you ever heard the phrase "TMI (Too Much Information)"? Well you're there, my friend. Yuk! :pukeright:

Here here SF farang!

As an HIV+ person I find the acts of some irresponsible positive people to be execrable in the extreme.

I also find the notion and act of BBing to be irresponsible by both parties. As had been said, if you have unprotected sex or indulge in high risk practices, you are in jeopardy of becoming infected.

The parties mentioned in this thread, where people willingly have unprotected sex with HIV+ partners with the object being to become infected themselves, is such a abominable concept to me, it almost leaves me speechless. I wasn't even going to post here and ignore the whole thing but I find I cannot.

I have a mature partner in BKK who is not Thai but is fully aware of my HIV+ status and very good general, mental and physical health. I told him of my health issue when we met and certainly long before any act of sex, as I have done with the partners I have chosen since 1991 (date of knowledge). I personally think that any other way of facing the issue to be ignorant and dishonest.

I hope I am typical of most right thinking guys in my situation. I deal with peoples lack of education on HIV information often and it angers me. There are screeds of up to the minute information on-line and uneducated comments and put-downs I come across from time to time just incurs my wrath.

As it happens I have no detectable viral load and my CD4 count is better than most uninfected people (984), so I pose little threat to my partner and none at all due my approach to responsibility. Any other person in my situation who treats their health and the people in which they come into contact, with such disrespect needs their bumps felt. I do not know anyone like this as I choose my friends and acquaintances as carefully as my lovers these days.

Be of good health my friends and do not let this thread be so divisive. It is all information ... good and bad.

Cheers
krobbie

[bao-bao]

I hope I am typical of most right thinking guys in my situation. I deal with peoples lack of education on HIV information often and it angers me. There are screeds of up to the minute information on-line and uneducated comments and put-downs I come across from time to time just incurs my wrath.
Certainly no argument out of ME, krobbie. Yours was a heartfelt and logical response.

However, beware of setting off our newest BBB, Bare Back Brandon. We certainly don't need another onslaught of his opinions, backed up by little more than smoke and mirrors. In fact, those truly wanting to do a public service might take that photo of whoever it is he uses for an avatar and share with folks as a warning. :cheers:

I respect your coming out on the forum here and wish you a long and comfortable life.

[krobbie]

[quote="krobbie"I respect your coming out on the forum here and wish you a long and comfortable life.

Thanks bao bao but it is common board knowledge as I have written of this before. I do indeed intend to continue with my comfortable and joyous life. Many of the posters here add to that enjoyment when I meet them in person. I haven't met one I didn't like ... but I have become very choosey about who I associate with these days. 555

Cheers
krobbie

Many of the posters here add to that enjoyment when I meet them in person. I haven't met one I didn't like ...

We have not met yet, krobbie! In the meantime, my best wishes and respect.

[Smiles]

" ... Thanks bao bao but it is common board knowledge as I have written of this before. I do indeed intend to continue with my comfortable and joyous life. Many of the posters here add to that enjoyment when I meet them in person. I haven't met one I didn't like ... "
Whewww ... I was beginning to worry.

Thankfully we had many laughs together (the 4 of us), though I must admit to being struck speechless for 20 seconds or so when ~ right there on the beach ~ you screwed off your 'regular' leg, and screwed on your 'swimming' leg.
I felt very sheltered and alone at that immediate moment, never having witnessed such a happening before. But humbled nonetheless ... I live in admiration at your nonplussedness/sp? (not to mention a Thai-like dexterity! :salute: ) in taking care of the 'technical' necessities in your life.

See you on the beach
Cheers ...

[catawampuscat]

As far as meeting others from the forum, one does
get a sense of the other person from his postings and usually have a few pms before the meeting is arranged.
Also like gayromeo, except the purpose is social rather than sexual/relationship orientated.
My problems with farangs from forums, are those who force themselves on you, insist on buying you drinks and telling you the boring story of their life, their illnessnes, their wacky opinions of things.

Just last nite, I jumped up from a group of farangs, when one racist nasty hetero approached (he likes ladyboys?) and won't spend a minute with those who make my skin crawl. It is far too easy to make friends in places like Pattaya, and easily made friends are often mistakes just waiting to ruin your day,imho. :cat:

[krobbie]

Many of the posters here add to that enjoyment when I meet them in person. I haven't met one I didn't like ...

We have not met yet, krobbie! In the meantime, my best wishes and respect.



I look forward to that also GF. Hope all good for you currently.
Happy Chinese New Year!

Cheers
krobbie

[krobbie]

off[/i] your 'regular' leg, and screwed on your 'swimming' leg.
I felt very sheltered and alone at that immediate moment, never having witnessed such a happening before. But humbled nonetheless ... I live in admiration at your nonplussedness/sp? (not to mention a Thai-like dexterity! :salute: ) in taking care of the 'technical' necessities in your life.

See you on the beach
Cheers ...

Well Smiles, as it happens I will be back in your neck of the woods in early May, with my wife and male love. Before anyone satrts to panic and finger shaking ... my wife is a gay Christan (Jesus!) andyou know Bobey already. What a shame you will have fled to Canada by then. Maybe Khun Pot will still be about though? I will need his services at this time. And of course I shall be bringing my day leg AND my swim leg for swimming at the beautiful Hua Hin beach.

You never told me before about how gob-smacked you were with the the old leg switch on the beach trick. As you know I'm not much bothered by such but I keep forgetting ... some people can get a complete surprise. Just when you think you've seen it all there's an HIV+ queer changing his artificial limbs right there on your patch at the beach! Gotta love it!

Cheers Smiles, sorry we missed on my last trip and next but you will be back Sept. no doubt. See you then. Have decided I am done with Phuket after many visits ... so run for cover ... Hua Hin is now most favoured.

IO seem to have digressed from the OP's main topic. Too bad.

Cheers
krobbe