Besides "face," other lessons to learn

[quiet1]

I decided to start a new thread, rather than to further derail an existing thread, to post my treatise. The following quote is from page three of http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/unlimited-hook-ups-boyfriends-partners-too-t16849-30.html


Not at all easy to figure out, at least for me. Usually I have empathy with people (believe it or not, lol) but I wonder if I could ever get into the Thai mindset enough to be empathetic about the "face" issue.
I'm not sure a foreigner ever totally "gets into the the mindset enough," but with time, you learn to realize there's always some new nuance to learn while living here.

Some more issues that a newbie to Thailand learns after a while, besides the concept of face, are:

"Yes" does not necessarily mean "Yes, I agree" or "Yes, I will do that." It often is the conversational equivalent of "Uh, huh" or silent nodding to just show that the listener is listening and (perhaps) understanding.

e.g. "I'm want to know if you are into water sports and will rim and bottom." "Yes." (Hint: Don't count on having hit the jackpot and finding someone who is into urination fun and will rim and bottom.)

Speaking of the face as a literal, physical thing, so often when a Thai doesn't understand what you are saying, such as making a special request when ordering food in a restaurant, instead of the innocent, perplexed look we are used to in the west, you will witness a severe scrunching up of the face which in the west is a clear sign of angry annoyance. I still cringe at this scowl each time I see it, and have to repress a reflex to respond with annoyance myself.

Another physical face issue: the song lyrics "A smile is just a smile..." were NOT written in Thailand. Somewhere I read an article where there are more than 40 types of smiles in Thailand. Different smiles represent different emotions from happiness, to sadness, to anger, to embarrassment, to ... you name it. Don't assume when someone smiles at you in Thaland, for instance after you say something, that the smile means they are happy. Land of Smiles, indeed.

Then there are kisses. I still don't quite "get" the "sniff kiss," and hope somebody can elaborate on that one.

And, then there are the innocent manglings of English which apparently are in some secret English teacher book of vows to spread, since they are 100% consistent throughout Thailand. e.g. When a store or restaurant is out of something (i.e. no longer in stock), they said it is "finished."

Now, here's the kicker: Some of us have been here long enough (too long?) that we have adopted these mannerisms. Just when you thought it was safe to chew the fat with a group of fellow farangs and let your guard down, someone scowls at you when they don't understand what you said, or gives you a Mona Lisa smile when you hurl an insult at them. :-)

Mai pen rai.

[Smiles]

I decided to start a new thread, rather than to further derail an existing thread, to post my treatise. The following quote is from page three of http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/unlimited-hook-ups-boyfriends-partners-too-t16849-30.html
Not at all easy to figure out, at least for me. Usually I have empathy with people (believe it or not, lol) but I wonder if I could ever get into the Thai mindset enough to be empathetic about the "face" issue.
I'm not sure a foreigner ever totally "gets into the the mindset enough," but with time, you learn to realize there's always some new nuance to learn while living here.

Some more issues that a newbie to Thailand learns after a while, besides the concept of face, are:

"Yes" does not necessarily mean "Yes, I agree" or "Yes, I will do that." It often is the conversational equivalent of "Uh, huh" or silent nodding to just show that the listener is listening and (perhaps) understanding.

"Yes" can often mean "no, but I'm not going to tell YOU I don't know something and thus make ME upset that YOU'RE not happy". For instance, asking for directions in English to a 100% Thai-only speaker will often elicit some vague but animated 'pointing' in all manner of different directions at the same time ... none of which the pointer has any clue as to whether they are correct or not. This is done because you have put the Thai in an untenable position of having to say "no" to you. Because that is not possible, the Thai will say (kind of) "yes" by pointing in any old direction. Then, you'll take off in that direction (whether you find the place or not is not important) and ... you'll be happy because you now think you're going in the right direction (even though you're not), and the Thai will be happy, because he's made you happy (for a short period of time, i.e. until you are out of sight).

This "yes"/ "no" thing also applies to 'rimming & water sports' mentioned below.

e.g. "I'm want to know if you are into water sports and will rim and bottom." "Yes." (Hint: Don't count on having hit the jackpot and finding someone who is into urination fun and will rim and bottom.)

Speaking of the face as a literal, physical thing, so often when a Thai doesn't understand what you are saying, such as making a special request when ordering food in a restaurant, instead of the innocent, perplexed look we are used to in the west, you will witness a severe scrunching up of the face which in the west is a clear sign of angry annoyance. I still cringe at this scowl each time I see it, and have to repress a reflex to respond with annoyance myself.

Another physical face issue: the song lyrics "A smile is just a smile..." were NOT written in Thailand. Somewhere I read an article where there are more than 40 types of smiles in Thailand. Different smiles represent different emotions from happiness, to sadness, to anger, to embarrassment, to ... you name it. Don't assume when someone smiles at you in Thaland, for instance after you say something, that the smile means they are happy. Land of Smiles, indeed.

Not sure about 40, but there is an interesing link to "The 13 Thai Smiles" here: http://www.into-asia.com/thailand/culture/smile.php . Turns out only one of them has much to do with expressing a form off 'happiness'. :drunken: Beware of Thai's smiling!

Then there are kisses. I still don't quite "get" the "sniff kiss," and hope somebody can elaborate on that one.

The deep tongue kiss is a rareity right off the bat. But over many years ~ and I'm an expert on this ~ one can teach a Thai guy to kiss in the proper western style of throwing one's tongue as far down the recipients throat as possible. Wiggling it around a bit while inside is also possible to teach (though that takes another year and a half). Bottom line is that 4 years after the first lesson, Thai guys can't stop throwing the tongue.

And, then there are the innocent manglings of English which apparently are in some secret English teacher book of vows to spread, since they are 100% consistent throughout Thailand. e.g. When a store or restaurant is out of something (i.e. no longer in stock), they said it is "finished."

Now, here's the kicker: Some of us have been here long enough (too long?) that we have adopted these mannerisms. Just when you thought it was safe to chew the fat with a group of fellow farangs and let your guard down, someone scowls at you when they don't understand what you said, or gives you a Mona Lisa smile when you hurl an insult at them. :-)

Mai pen rai.

Cheers ...

[allieb]

I have been reading so many posts on this forum about not letting Thai loose face as well as other customs we should quickly adopt when visiting Thailand. When I was a child, I like most was taught that when you have a guest you shoud try to serve the kind of food he likes and behave in a manor which will please him.

Now the whole thing is turned upside down when we visit Thailand. I have heard the saying we are a guests in Thailand even if we are paying guests. Has anyone any thoughts as to why there shouldn't be more give and take when it come to the cultural thing. I mean why should I let a Thai save face if by doing so it upsets me?

I'm not saying that they should do everthing our way but there should be some common understanding of each others culture, what to, and what not to do if they want to enter into the life of a farang.

[Patexpat]

I mean why should I let a Thai save face if by doing so it upsets me?
.

The hard fact is that if you wish to be successful be it in public/social or business relationships, then never force a Thai (or indeed many other Asian cultures) to loose face. You may get away with more direct talk in private, but never in public!!

It's a terrible thing to have to cope with, especially in business ...

[Dodger]

Smiles,

The "sniff kiss" (haawm kaem in Thai), is the Thais way of showing intimacy, in place of the "kiss on the lips" we favor in the west. The sniff kiss is applied to either the cheek, neck or hair of the recipient as a sign of affection. In a romantic interaction, sniff kissing is intended to then be erotic. The sniff kiss method also provides a way of showing affection in public, where, of course, kissing (on the lips) is viewed by Thais as being morally degrading.

I know what you mean about kissing your guy as being a progressive task over time, as I experienced the same thing with Tape. When I first attempted to kiss him on the lips, he shyed away abruptly. Sensing his dislike for this, I resisted attempting this any more until another year or so had passed. Then, one night, I remember attempting this again in a slow and subtle manner, and this time he responded, although there was no tongue play. As time passed, he started initiating the kissing on his own, even without any real coaxing from me, and finally the tongues started coming into play. Now, kissing has become a prerequisite ... and I have to deal with that flaming chili hot tongue of his on a regular basis...555.

Now, sniff rimming" is the technique I really like for showing my affection western-style. Similar to "sniff kissing", this would also be viewed as being morally degrading if done in public, and actually, I can't argue with them on that point.

Cheers...

Now, sniff rimming" is the technique I really like for showing my affection western-style. Similar to "sniff kissing", this would also be viewed as being morally degrading if done in public, and actually, I can't argue with them on that point.

Cheers...


My dogs would not disagree.

simple answer. when in thailand do as the thais. like it or not.

[pong]

some remarks-from also along time Thaild visitor:
-'finished''-I always tend to hear that more usual ''no have'' (may mee, perfect Thai). ''Finnish'' tends to be used by waiters when they want to clear your plate-your answer should not be ''no, english/swedish/american/whatever'' though.
I like those stories about Tape-though think its ''Thep?"" (angel?). I guess he is partly Khmer/Cambodian-like so many in that part of Isan-the ''not in my mouth'' is well-known for Khmer boys. MY BF is half Thai/half VietNamese-from more north Isan-beside the Maekong river and does not have it-and never had.
for those interested in: I fist came to Thaild when this web was not there. I read a book- Noom Thai (Thai young men)-by mr. Eryc Allen- which explained the whole lot-many of those customs-and had for the time full lists of gay places. Was very insightful.

[bao-bao]

simple answer. when in thailand do as the thais. like it or not.
I do what I can, Alf, but try as I might my balance isn't good enough for some things... so I'll say:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z56/khunbaobao/NoSittingOnSeat.jpg

i guess im with you on that one. never could get myself to use one of those holes in the ground. id rather wait for however long it took to find a proper western toilet.

This blog is extremely instructive about thai boys:
http://ricequeendiary.com/

I enjoy it a lot.

simple answer. when in thailand do as the thais. like it or not.I do so agree, Alf. All those thousands of people who bought Thailand Elite cards for more than a million baht and have found out this week that the new government is canceling the scheme - they're just a bunch of complaining foreigners, as x in pattaya says a "never-ending parade of pathetic, ridiculous farang, bitter old bitching nuisances". Mind you, since x in pattaya boasts that he's been deported from 35 countries over his working life, I guess he's keeping his head down in Pattaya, trying not to add Thailand as #36

I fist came to Thaild when this web was not there. I read a book- Noom Thai (Thai young men)-by mr. Eryc Allen- which explained the whole lot-many of those customs-and had for the time full lists of gay places. Was very insightful.

Oh, yes. I remember the books and writings of Mr. Eric Allen - his work mentored me in my earlier understanding of those lovely boys. Outdated (now) as it may be I'd love to find a copy of that book again and re-live some of those insightful discoveries.

[jinks]

i guess im with you on that one. never could get myself to use one of those holes in the ground. id rather wait for however long it took to find a proper western toilet.

At Petrol stations (Americans please read Gas) most of the disabled toilets are western sit n go :)