Thoughts on budgeting for living in Thailand long term ...

[Smiles]

Since starting the 'long-term' part of my life in Thailand (i.e. 8 months in Thailand, 4 months 'back there') I've had ample opportunity to be able to come up with some very general expense amounts (in baht) which may (or may not) be relevent or interesting to folks who are contemplating making this step from holiday to day-to-day living.

Naturally, these amounts will be different to everyone according to their circumstances: incomes are different, areas within Thailand will vary in expense, spending habits are wildly different (e.g. if you think you would be inclined to go out to boy bars and off guys 4 or 5 times a week, then all bets are off regarding the 'entertainment' category).

So in the figures below I have left 'entertainment' completely out. I've just added to the list those things which might well be fairly common amongst us all on a monthly basis. Even adding 'food' is difficult (though I've made a stab at it) as I think most farang who end up living long term in Thailand will eventually fall into the 'eat-out' habit more the than 'cook-in-at-home' choice ... and deciding to do so usually means a very wide mix of eating very cheaply on the street, in small Thai restaurants, at night markets ~ or at more expensive, more farang-oriented restaurants. This kind of normal mixing makes it very difficult to generalize about monthly food expense.

I shall just describe our 'lifestyle' a bit ... your's of course will inevitably be different to some degree, or a large degree. All of the below description is included because it is relevent to spending and budgeting:

I am on a reasonably decent pension ... but certainly not a rich man.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
We have chosen (for the near future at least) to rent rather than buy.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
We are a monogamous couple (8 years and counting, with all intention of staying that way), thus spending no money at all on GoGo bars and off fees. (Change "no money at all" to "very infrequently" to satisfy the minutiae-minded, like Mr X)[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
Our home is a two-story attached townhouse ... 2 bdrms, 2 bath, quite large. [/*:m:3qasiwyq]
We are easy walking distance to town, thus no transportation issues. We own a vehicle, but rarely use it 'in town'. [/*:m:3qasiwyq]
Our home is in Hua Hin ... which would make it reasonably comparable to costs to, say, Pattaya or Chiang Mai. If you choose to live in ~ for instance ~ Phuket or Bangkok your monthly costs may well be somewhat higher.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
We would normally do some travel further afield within Thailand on average once a month[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
My partner has a tour guide/taxi business which brings him his own personal income ... especially in High Season[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
There were significant expenses in December 2007 when we spent quite a lot on 'things' to make our home better furnished and more comfortable. There are still things we want to have sooner or later, but the largest purchases have already been made. None of this one-time outlay is taken into consideration in the list below, even though much of the stuff we bought will probably be on the list that most long-term stayers will be considering once they become that.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]

(All figures are average monthly costs)

Rent: 8000 baht (This amount is a good deal for the quite large place we have. We pay by the year which brings the monthly cost down to 8000. Paying by-the-month the place we have would rent in the 10,000 range. Similar townhomes on our Soi (in varying degrees of renovation) are For Rent now at 15,000, but they've been vacant for long stretches at a time)

Water & Garbage(same bill): 45 baht

Electricity: 300 baht (Amount here is an average. All through September and October the heat and humidity in Hua Hin was very high, so we used aircon in the bedroom all the time at night (on 'low) ... the cost went up as high as 600 baht. The temperature and stickiness disappeared in mid November, and we haven't used the aircon at all since: cost dove to 200 baht)

Television: 1560 (This is for True/UBC satellite reception with a dish. One can get regular cable from the local cable company for 2500 baht a year (i.e. 208 baht a month) (!!), but the choices are pretty horrendous for an english-only speaker)

Laundry: 1000 baht

Internet: 500 baht (I purposely did not choose to lug my laptop between Canada & Thailand. This is a decision that may change, but right now I use an internet cafe. Not looked into home internet connection as yet, but if I do bring (or buy) the laptop the cost above will change ... maybe more, maybe less)

Telephone: 500 baht (I buy 100 baht top ups at 7-11 about once every 2 weeks. That's 200 baht in-Thailand calls, but if I overuse the long distance then that pops it up 100 baht easily. Suphot gets one or two 100 top ups as gifts fairly often, so that makes it about to the 500 range)

Travel: 10,000 baht (This is comprised of monthly trips which usually last 3-5 days. We stay in Thai hotels at about 600-800 baht a night .... gasoline costs .... entertainment, and eating. Sometimes we will not go away at all, so this figure is a bit fluid and difficult to generalize. But over all, I think if I average out the trip costs over one year it would be close to the figure)

Transportation: 1000 baht (I give Suphot about 1000 a month for gas for the car ... the rest he pays himself. We spend next to nothing on taxis, tuk tuks, songtaoews etc)

Food & (home) booze: 17,150 baht (This is a tough one as it is rather a moveable feast. I'll try to show you how I arrived at this figure by adding up the following ... and it is very much a 'best-guess' average):
Four times a week we eat "on the street" (i.e. night market, small Thai restaurants etc) at an average 'check bin' of 250 baht for 2: that's 4000 baht a month[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
Three times a week we eat at higher end place at an average 'check bin' of 700 baht for 2: that's 8,400 baht for the month. [/*:m:3qasiwyq]
We shop at a supermarket twice a month with an average bill of 1500 each: that's 3000 baht.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
Miscellaneous: daily shopping for small items (bread, milk, eggs, fruit): about 1000 baht a month.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]
Booze is essentially one 24 pack of Chang beer a month in the fridge at 750 baht.[/*:m:3qasiwyq]

I hope this post will give anyone who has vague (or specific) intentions of living longer-term in Thailand in the near future a reasonable idea of monthly costs which will not change that much.
If I have missed some things which I think I should be included, I will edit the post. But right now I think it is a reasonble collection of costs which anyone should take into consideration.

Cheers ...

A good template to start with. Did you factor tips into any of the eating out costs etc?

[Hmmm]

Interesting. For those without calculators, that's about 40,000 baht/month.

Any health insurance ? Other incidentals ? Movies, car maintenance / insurance, medicines ?

Electricity looks low, but do you pay the electricity company directly, rather than a rapacious landlord / condo management ?

[TrongpaiExpat]

Very good for electric, I don't know how you do it. I live in a 80sm two bedroom tree shaded condo, has three ac units and use mostly the bedroom unit set at 25c and the one in the living room is set at 29c and on all the time. The one in the spare bedroom is seldom on. We do a fare amount of cooking, have a demand water heater for the shower, a washer but not a dryer and I run a few fans when we are home. Then I run one large aquarium with a pump, lights and filters all the time. My electric bill is not padded by the condo owners and it comes in at 1,200 for the cool months, up to 2,100 in the hot months.

I used to live in a high rise on the 27th floor in a 60sm unit and had two ac units and that cost me 2,600 to 3,200 per month. Sticking up there in the sky, no shade and if the AC was off the place turned into an oven.

Also factor into account that we take a trip every month for 4 to 6 days but have to keep the living room ac unit running at 29c or the fish in the tank would die. The bedrooms are closed of and shut down when we leave.

You monthly food expense is in line with ours as long as I stay out of some farang food restaurants and stick to Thai food and cooking at home. Last two nights we went to some fancy places and spend over 6000B but that's only for Christmas eve, day and other special days or uncontrollable urges but not every day. There was a 20,000B per person Christmas buffet at someplace in Bangkok I noticed in the Post.

[x in pattaya]

I live in a one bedroom condo, almost never use the air con but run the TV & computer a lot, don't do much cooking aside from throwing something in the microwave from time to time, and my electric bill runs around B1500 a month. Never bothered with a water heater until about a year ago, but adding the on-demand water heater for the shower didn't seem to make a big change.

Is your electricity metered and is anyone reading the meter?... use a lot of candles? bathe with the neighbors garden hose?

I'd add in about B 1000 a month for TOT adsl Internet and I pay for B29,000 annually for hospital insurance (only in-patient covereage) and B 6,500 for my friend's medical insurance.

Taking into consideration some annual amounts for insurance, condo maintenance charge, satellite TV, etc., my monthly average is closer to B85,000/B 90,000



thus spending no money at all on GoGo bars and off fees.

Considering your tale of debauchery while plumbing the depths of Soi Twilight this entry may not survive an auditing.

[Smiles]

Good questions regarding the utilities.

Thailand seems to have a two-tired structure regarding utility payments (i.e. water, electric, television etc) if one is living in any kind of rental:
(1) the first being that one pays directly to the utility itself ... in our case, the water bill is paid to the city of Hua Hin, the electric and TV connection is paid to the electric company and TRUE/UBS.

(2) the "Rip Off" option (usually no choice) wherein one pays the landlord for all the utilities, and thus pays straight through the nose with quite large markups from the "true" utility bill ... the (significant) difference ending up as pure profit to the landlord. Trongpai comments that his utility bill is not padded. Perhaps so, but many are, for sure.

We are lucky, as we rent under #1. It's definitely something to determine at the time of initial rental, as you can easily see from the whining cheapskate posters above. :blackeye:


" ... Considering your tale of debauchery while plumbing the depths of Soi Twilight this entry may not survive an auditing ... "
That was a behavioural anomoly, duplicated once only every 4 years. Besides that, I specically stated that "entertainment' was not included as part of the monthly costs because of the difficulty in keeping track of our/anyone's hedonism.
If you wish to add in the 3 beach boys a day plus the numerous 4-somes you take part in during any given evening, you'll have to start your own topic.

Cheers ...

[mahjongguy]

I too am surprised at the low electricty bill. When we lived in an apartment in Bangkok the average bill from the manager was around 3,500 baht. Now we have a house in Jomtien, and the bill from the electric authority still averages 3,500 baht.

In my discussions with friends in various living situations around Thailand, two people with air conditioning and televisions and computers and a big fridge should expect to pay more than 3,000 baht most months.

So, I think your meter is broken. Lucky you! :)

[x in pattaya]

If you wish to add in the 3 beach boys a day plus the numerous 4-somes you take part in during any given evening, you'll have to start your own topic.

That's all covered under "laundry."

I still think there's something wrong with your electric meter. People in our building, including Thais, have the option of paying directly to the utility company (or are forced to in the event they fail to pay the condo management too often) and no one is eager to do that.

Maybe the meter reader is just using an estimate and if he ever gets around to actually reading it, you'll owe a truly spectacular amount.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Good questions regarding the utilities.

(2) the "Rip Off" option (usually no choice) wherein one pays the landlord for all the utilities, and thus pays straight through the nose with quite large markups from the "true" utility bill ... the (significant) difference ending up as pure profit to the landlord. Trongpai comments that his utility bill is not padded. Perhaps so, but many are, for sure.


The choice is find someplace else. The first question I asked when condo shopping was is the electric bill from the utility company or from the condo. If they said condo or something not clear, I did not even bother to ask to see available units. The mark up can be quite high.

Thanks for the run down on your expenses. I notice that you live with a partner, and that this seems to reduce some of your costs and increase others. I would be interested in your opinion on what would happen to your running costs if you lived alone. This might mirror the situation of a larger proportion of the board readers.

[joe552]

Thanks, Smiles - I find this interesting although it'll be 12 years before I can retire (assuming I still have a pension after recent events). I'd had a figure in my head of 40,000 - тВм1,000 - per month excluding rent, so it shows I wasn't far off.

Thanks again.

[Narakmak]

Yeah, the electricity sounds really off.

I live in a 75 sq meter condo, never run the aircon, take cold showers most of the year (I have acclimated) in Pattaya and the monthly cost runs about 1400 baht, direct billed to the electric company. I guess if I ran the aircon a lot it would over 4000.

[Doug]

I notice that there is no extra money budgeted for your live-in friend or for his family. Does he have his own income source?

[Brad the Impala]

I notice that there is no extra money budgeted for your live-in friend or for his family. Does he have his own income source?



My partner has a tour guide/taxi business which brings him his own personal income ... especially in High Season

[Smiles]

" ... I notice that there is no extra money budgeted for your live-in friend or for his family. Does he have his own income source? ... "
He's not a "live-in friend" Doug (though you, and many, may consider that just semantics) ... he's my partner/lover/(I can't choke out the word 'husband'). As such we live on the income we have together. This of course means my income is greater, but no matter ... there is no specific amount/allowance I give him every month besides our regular living expenses, most of which you might note (if you had read things a little closer) are expenses I would probably pay at about the same rate if I was living alone. Also ... in the 'food' category I specifically used a 'check-bin' amount "for two".

His family is not part of any formal monthly costs, so it was not included. Once in awhile Suphot (and not every month. He seems to do it when he feels like it) will trundle down to the bank to transfer 500 or 1000 baht into his father's account. And once in a while (not every time) I will fish out an equivalent amout and get him to add it to the deposit. Pot never asks for this matching amount, and if I don't have it in my wallet, I don't offer it. I don't even know whether his father knows about my part.

As Charles pointed out, if you had read the post correctly you'd have noticed that he does indeed have his own income.

Cheers ...

[Smiles]

" ... I too am surprised at the low electricty bill. When we lived in an apartment in Bangkok the average bill from the manager was around 3,500 baht. Now we have a house in Jomtien, and the bill from the electric authority still averages 3,500 baht.

In my discussions with friends in various living situations around Thailand, two people with air conditioning and televisions and computers and a big fridge should expect to pay more than 3,000 baht most months.

So, I think your meter is broken. Lucky you! :) ... "
The meter is working perfectly fine. I too am very pleased with the low electric rate. I had originally budgeted for more, but now am pleasantly surprised.
Hua Hin as a city simply may be a cheaper area vis-a-vis electric rates, and (undoubtedly more to the point), as mentioned, many many folks who rent are getting hosed big time by the presense of a profit-taking middleman between the renter and the actual electric company. We are lucky he is not present in our case.

Our main energy-eating appliances are: 3 strong fans (one of which is pretty well always on); one medium-size fridge (not 'big', but I'd prefer 'bigger'); two TV's; hot water heater in the main bathrooms; and of course two aircons in both of the bedrooms (which means one is seldom running unless we have guests).


" ... Yeah, the electricity sounds really off ... "
Then I suggest you adjust your thinking. The amounts posted in my original post come directly from my monthly electric bills, of which I have kept every one.
Before I made this post I checked all of the bills I had to try and make sure that the amounts posted were as close to correct as humanly possible.

I think I made it as clear as I could in the original post that costs will vary according to a persons living circumstances. The figures posted are our experience only, and meant to help out folks who are intent on living in Thailand long-term in some near future. They were not meant to reflect some theoretical 'perfect' budget anyone else should shoot for.

Cheers ...

[x in pattaya]

Then I suggest you adjust your thinking.

Here are the rates, which I believe are current, for those of you who actually know how many KwH you consume. The first category covers "dwellings" and "monasteries," so that should be all inclusive for Sawatdee members.
http://www.pea.co.th/th/eng/downloadabl ... yrates.pdf (http://www.pea.co.th/th/eng/downloadable/electricityrates.pdf)


I'm sure Mr. Smiles' meter is doing a fine job and that no one meant to impugn its integrity or that of any of his electrical appliances.

I have to admit I wouldn't know if my meter was functioning properly or if the monthly numbers were pulled out of a hat. Obviously some people are a bit sensitive on this subject. I'm sure my condo pads the bill a bit to cover expenses. Since the same two guys who read the meters also do repairs, install new faucets/taps, sort out faulty telephone lines, etc within minutes of my requests & essentially for free, I don't think I'll be making a fuss. My annual condo maintenance fee is under B10,000, so I still consider the whole deal a bargain.

It is in fact that time of the year for me to hand out Sawatdee Pii Mai cards (6 for B 55 at Carrefour) with a little currency enclosed to those who enthusiastically provide maintenance services and catatonically man the security desk in our building. A smoothly running machine requires a bit of oil from time to time.

P.S. There is a lively discussion of the wide range of monthly amounts paid for electricity here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pay-Elect ... 11654.html (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pay-Electricity-Month-t11654.html)

[Brad the Impala]

P.S. There is a lively discussion of the wide range of monthly amounts paid for electricity here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pay-Elect ... 11654.html (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Pay-Electricity-Month-t11654.html)

Oh joy! There is always something to look forward to!


Apropos my above comment, could one of our learned members help me explain to a significant other the difference between irony and sarcasm?

[x in pattaya]

Oh joy! There is always something to look forward to!
Actually I neglected to mention the best part. The discussion of electric rates already runs to 17 pages, so you may want to pack a lunch and bring a change of clothes before jumping in. Apparently you don't have to be gay to take a mind-numbing topic to extraordinary lengths.

re: sarcasm versus irony:

I'm being neither ironic nor sarcastic in saying that there exists a Sarcasm Society (I'm sure they'd welcome you as a member)


Sarcasm & Irony
Sarcasm and Irony have a very close relationship with one another. Both tend to be used to make a poignant or entertaining statement. Often times, people say something is ironic when it is actually sarcastic and vice versa because the two concepts have become so intertwined, whereas, in actuality, sarcasm is a concept that utilizes irony. In many instances, sarcasm is a remark seasoned with irony. You can think of irony as a vessel to express many things in a sarcastic way. For example, if a girl takes an especially long time to get ready as her date patiently waits for her, when she finally emerges, her date might remark with a deadpan tone "Well, you certainly don't take long to get ready." In the circumstance, again, irony is utilized to express the opposite of the actual situation to mock the extended length of time it took for the girl to actually get ready. Irony is employed, but the humor that is achieved though its use is sarcasm. In addition, sarcasm is always considered a form of wit, whereas irony can be found in any type of situation, be is funny or quite serious. Irony takes on many forms (generally tragic and situational irony) that are very saddening and in no way considered mockery. In this sense Irony is a bit more varied and far-reaching in its scope than sarcasm.

http://www.sarcasmsociety.com/sarcasmandirony/

Smiles, I have to agree with the majority on the electricity - rates are national, not local, and if your meter was working properly your bill would, for example, have gone up by around a thousand baht (plus) during those months when you used the aircon every night, not just 300 baht. Check the electricity consumption on the fridge, water heaters, aircons, etc, to see roughly how many kw/hrs you use and you will see that there is something wrong - but whatever you do, don't complain!

At 720 hours per month, and at a rate of 1.5 baht per kilowatt per hour (the lowest rate), your 200 baht per month gives you around 200 watts, which would probably power your fridge and a single light bulb, but not much else, while upping it to 600 baht would put you in the 2 baht per kilowatt per hour rate and give you some 500 watts - even the best a/c, on low, cannot manage on that!

As has been said, there are also quite a few other incidental expenses which would normally need to be included, such as medical insurance (for two), house insurance, car/motorbike insurance and servicing, medical treatment (pharmacies, etc, unless you pay a very high rate for out-patient treatment), dental treatment, glasses, toiletries, clothes, books/magazines, miscellaneous purchases (mobile phones, TV, CDs DVDs, etc), even pets and vet/pet food bills. Individually they may not be so much, but over the course of a year it all mounts up and unless they are prepared to have a very mundane existence indeed I think that very few expats here would be able to have a reasonable standard of living on a total budget of 40,000 baht a month and that it would be rather unwise to plan on being able to do so for much less than the 85-90,000 X in Pattaya budgets.

If you are doing it for 40,000 baht a month overall, including rent, and you are obviously very happy with your lifestyle, then I think you are very fortunate indeed.

If you are doing it for 40,000 baht a month

I think you are very fortunate indeed.

What actually make you think ? :clown:

[bucknaway]

Thanks Smiles. you added things to your budget that I would have never thought of. I would not have thought of the laundry cost or the cost of liquor (I don't drink much at all). but your budget details throws a cold bucket of reality on some of the things we all would not be able to live without but would not add to our perceived budget... But we could probably never live without.

[joe552]

Am I wrong in thinking that pre-planning can only go so far? There will always be things one hasn't budgeted for (books, for instance, mentioned above). And really, budgeting for life in Thailand is no different than budgeting for life in the real world - you have an income, you have bills, you have (if your lucky) some disposable income. Budgeting, for me, is about trimming your sail to suit... (sorry, forgotten the end of that proverb).

But it was useful to see some concrete figures for the basics.

[Brad the Impala]

Am I wrong in thinking that pre-planning can only go so far? There will always be things one hasn't budgeted for (books, for instance, mentioned above). And really, budgeting for life in Thailand is no different than budgeting for life in the real world - you have an income, you have bills, you have (if your lucky) some disposable income. Budgeting, for me, is about trimming your sail to suit... (sorry, forgotten the end of that proverb).

But it was useful to see some concrete figures for the basics.

Possibly you are mixing your metaphors or muddling your idioms rather forgetting your proverbs!

Cutting your coat according to your cloth, or Trimming your sails to the wind?

[bucknaway]

Although Smiles posted an average of expenses I do not think he actively lives in the fear of a budget. It is simply his average expenditures in a given period and I appreciate it.

I think if I had to, I could spell out my average monthly budget although I don't live by a budget. I live within my means and never have to worry about expenses. I am not rich and I am sure many of you have much more than I do but I do one thing...... and that is avoiding debt and I also don't waste my money.

If I were ever to retire outside of the USA, I would never live from hand to mouth and I am sure I would have to have a healthy and growing savings. When and if it ever did come to be that I was forced to live hand to mouth (Meaning that I needed every satang of my monthly income to survive). I would be forced to return home even if it meant that I had to eat humble pie.

Anyway, I appreciate Smiles post and I am sure it has helped a great many guys who have plans of moving to Thailand for a long term.

[x in pattaya]

Not surprisingly, one of the areas that can throw your budgeting into the dust bin is medical expenses.I have hospital insurance, which is typically what's available to farang assuming you start a policy before you turn 60, but out-patient charges and drugs are out-of-pocket. Fortunately the former are extraordinarily cheap. I see an eye doctor and cardiologist regularly at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya and a typical visit is rarely over B1000 (and sometimes if the eye doctor does a minimal check-up, she doesn't charge me anything).

Medicine can get expensive though. I spend B5000 to B8000 a month on drugs (of the legal variety), which is not something I had planned on so early in retirement. If I reach the stage where I need to get monthly injections of Lucentis, those run about B70,000 per injection. That's not a typo. They're about US$2000 per injection... and they're injected directly into the eyeball, which makes it all the more exciting to contemplate. Fortunately medical services in Thailand are excellent and generally a bargain compared to the west, but if you're working out a budget that itemizes expenditures on Q-tips and deodorant, but overlooks medical expenses you're being unrealistic.





I am sure I would have to have a healthy and growing savings.

When I retired I started out with a decent pension, US Social Security and what I considered a very healthy set of investments which provided me with a growing cushion for the unexpected. You may have noticed in the past year that the world economy and stock markets have been hit harder than in the past 75 years. Nobody anticipated that and if you were depending on investment income to maintain a minimal lifestyle, you would be in a world of pain. Even if you kept it as cash in a bank, assuming the bank didn't collapse, it wouldn't be growing by much and its purchasing power is going to get knee-capped when inflation and currency devaluation hit in a year or two. Most governments are trying to buy themselves out of a recession with debt, which will soon come back to bite us in our collective butts.

I use the B 800,000 baht in the bank approach to retirement visa extensions, so I top up the account to around B1 million three months before visa renewal time. Unless you really have an unlimited source of funds, it's probably a good idea to use Excel or Quicken to set up a monthly budget and to track cash & bank balances. You shouldn't obsess about it, but if you don't keep track of how much money you're running through, it's quite easy to over-extend yourself.

When I retired I started out with a decent pension, US Social Security ....I use the B 800,000 baht in the bank approach to retirement visa extensions, so I top up the account to around B1 million three months before visa renewal time.

You are probably already aware that if you have a verified pension you do not need the full TB 800,000 in the bank, or to have it there for three months, only the balance depending on your pension. Just a passing thought ...


If I were ever to retire outside of the USA .... I am sure I would have to have a healthy and growing savings.

So you wont be retiring in the foreseeable future, then??

[bucknaway]

So you wont be retiring in the foreseeable future, then??

In all honesty... I love the USA and can't imagine myself living anyplace else. Sure I can play with the idea of living in another land but I know I would never abandon the land I love. :)

I have to say 1 of the most honest and down to earth examples of how much it costs to live in Thailand, many a time l have thought of it, though never done it, but this template you have set out, could be used and if l was moving over there, l would use it!!

Thank you

[Brad the Impala]

X,

Thanks for the link and explanation, although I think that there are clearer definitions out there somewhere. However it seems to have beaten our experts here.

[joe552]

Brad, thanks for completing my aphorism or whatever it was. 'Cutting your cloth to suit your measure' is what I was trying to say (and it only took 24 hours for me to remember, and me with a TEFL Cert!). Maybe posting after a couple of drinks is not such a good idea even for native English speakers!

Thanks again, Joe

[Smiles]

Due to the teeth-knashings surrounding my (apparent) incredibly low monthly electricity bill I gathered the electric bills for the last 6 months together and actually did the math by adding them all up and dividing by 6. I had looked at them and done a quick best-guess estimate of the average for the purpose of the original post, but after the posts above it seemed only right to get an exact figure.

I was quite close with the 300 baht figure, but I admit I was a tad low. Now that I've done the math, the monthly average electric charge must be upped to 364 baht. A budget-busting increase for sure.
[/*:m:9budcyzc]
I neglected water costs when making up the Food & Booze item. We buy bottled water by the 6X750ml (20 baht) method and go through 2 of these a week (not counting water 'away' ... i.e. restaurants, driving, beach etc). That's 200 baht a month (giving some leeway for a few extra water runs, which can easily happen).[/*:m:9budcyzc]

Cheers ...

I would personally like to thank you for your post. I believe that it's important to plan early. As another poster stated .... I am about 10 years away from retirement as I retire at 50 and I turn 39 in a few days. But what I have decided to do is purchase (which I did on my last trip to Thailand), I purchased in the Krisda Golden Condotel Cliff & Park located in Banampher which is only about 15km from downtown Pattaya. I prepaid the association fee and electric bill (which is static) and it cost 10,120.80 bht for six months or 1,686.80 per month. Granted not being there and the power being turned off at the panel it's high, but when I am there two months each year on vacation I think it would be a steal and once I live there most of the year it will be a real deal. Granted this is a modest 17th floor 80sqmt 1 bedroom 1.5 bath condo (after remodel). Recently at my current salary my pension (if I don't go any further in my career) would be 315,000bht per month based on a 35 to 1 exchange rate my medical is also provided via blue cross/blue shield which has a deal with Bumrungrad Hospital in BKK. My thought was to purchase now ( I got a great deal) have it paid off in a year or two ( I used my credit card) that way my monthly expenses would be minimum and would allow for travel play and philanthropy (I would like to found a school or scholarships toward education) . I have to admit that I love to cook at home, so I don't believe that I would fall into the go out and eat trap, however I can see spending more money in food as I love to entertain, but I don't know how that will go in such a small space, only time will tell. Nevertheless, your numbers seem very reasonable to me and I hope that they hold for when I make Thailand my home.

[x in pattaya]

You are probably already aware that if you have a verified pension you do not need the full TB 800,000 in the bank, or to have it there for three months, only the balance depending on your pension. Just a passing thought ...

I have a Type A personality. Lest anything think that sounds like bragging, one summary is:


Type A individuals can be described as impatient, excessively time-conscious, insecure about their status, highly competitive, hostile and aggressive, and incapable of relaxation.

As a consequence, if there's more than one way to do something, I'll [attempt to] do all of them just to cover all bases and insure success. It's also a predisposing risk factor for one version of the eye problem I have.

Therefore, I get a letter from my embassy verifying the amount of my pension & social security as well as confirming letters from the pension payer & SS. I also maintain a 3 month bank balance over B800,000 and obtain a certifying letter from my bank manager. (And when I go to Immigrations I carry along photocopies and originals of all related bank transfers, my condo deed and just about anything else that could conceivably be requested ... though they've never been required).

I realize this is overkill, but the last time I did my retirement visa extension I sailed through in 10 minutes with no questions asked. If there were a third option I'd probably incorporate that too and aim for 8 minutes.

I've lived in Africa, Pakistan, the UAE and Thailand now for a total of almost 35 years. A good deal of one's life in the third world is spent in the quest of one rubber stamp or another, all of which probably put the icing on the cake of my Type A personality. Be Over-Prepared is my motto.

[Smiles]

" ... Thanks for the run down on your expenses. I notice that you live with a partner, and that this seems to reduce some of your costs and increase others. I would be interested in your opinion on what would happen to your running costs if you lived alone. This might mirror the situation of a larger proportion of the board readers ... "
Good questions. Certainly the food amount would be reduced, possibly by half as I'm paying for 2 :blackeye:
The laundry would be perhaps a third less. Travel costs (within Thailand) a bit less, or a lot less as I might not travel so much. Rent would be the same. Electric, TV, water the same.

Living with a steady partner is reall all about good mental health, and as such, keeps me healthier (no doctors or hospitals!), happier, we go to bed earlier so there's a saving there :blackeye: in terms of bars, drinking, fuck shows etc etc, and he cooks quite a bit (especially breakfast & lunch) so a saving there.
I hardly think anymore about the 'costs' of having a good relationship. Not saying that there aren't any, but they tend to be trivial if they are measured in baht.

Cheers ...

[x in pattaya]

X,

Thanks for the link and explanation, although I think that there are clearer definitions out there somewhere. However it seems to have beaten our experts here.

I suppose a more concise though not especially all-encompassing definition would be:

sarcasm: A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
irony:The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

[x in pattaya]

I have to admit that I love to cook at home, so I don't believe that I would fall into the go out and eat trap, however I can see spending more money in food as I love to entertain.

Depending on your view of Thai food, I wouldn't consider going-out-to-eat to be a "trap" here. I virtually never go to tourist type Thai or western food restaurants. They're usually overly expensive and the Thai food is dumbed-down for supposed farang palates. But if you start to explore the hole-in-the-wall restaurants or those that are just some chairs & tables on the pavement in front of shops you'll soon find a number of excellent places to eat which are usually cheaper than if you attempted to cook for yourself. If you don't care for the ambience, which in some cases has its own charm but in others leans heavily on tourist bus exhaust fumes, you can usually get the food bagged and bring it home.

I've done my own cooking most of my life, but here I only have a couple of electric woks, a microwave and rice cooker. There's a 101 things to eat "on the street" within a 5 minute walk from my condo, so why bother with the heat, mess and expense of cooking ... and no farang will ever match a good Thai cook when it come to making Thai food.

I have a culinary degree, so I can give a lot of Thais or anyone else a run for their money when it comes to Culinary Arts. :-) But, I was commenting on someones comment about it being a trap. I know of many many great Thai restaurants that are very inexpensive. I just like to cook for myself and friends normally. No disrespect intended to any Thai or Thai restaurant.

My thought was to purchase now ( I got a great deal) have it paid off in a year or two ( I used my credit card) ...... Nevertheless, your numbers seem very reasonable to me and I hope that they hold for when I make Thailand my home.

So, presumably, you haven't managed to sell the $2,000,000 yacht you had for sale earlier this year then?

Actually she did sell in June, but not for 2M she sold for 1.5M. But not sure what that has to do with this thread?

[Brad the Impala]

[quote="Brad the Impala":5108mohx]X,

Thanks for the link and explanation, although I think that there are clearer definitions out there somewhere. However it seems to have beaten our experts here.

I suppose a more concise though not especially all-encompassing definition would be:

sarcasm: A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
irony:The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.[/quote:5108mohx]

I like that simple definition. Thank you

[anakot]

[quote]You are probably already aware that if you have a verified pension you do not need the full TB 800,000 in the bank, or to have it there for three months, only the balance depending on your pension. Just a passing thought ...

I have a Type A personality. Lest anything think that sounds like bragging, one summary is:


Type A individuals can be described as impatient, excessively time-conscious, insecure about their status, highly competitive, hostile and aggressive, and incapable of relaxation.

As a consequence, if there's more than one way to do something, I'll [attempt to] do all of them just to cover all bases and insure success. It's also a predisposing risk factor for one version of the eye problem I have.

Therefore, I get a letter from my embassy verifying the amount of my pension & social security as well as confirming letters from the pension payer & SS. I also maintain a 3 month bank balance over B800,000 and obtain a certifying letter from my bank manager. (And when I go to Immigrations I carry along photocopies and originals of all related bank transfers, my condo deed and just about anything else that could conceivably be requested ... though they've never been required).

I realize this is overkill, but the last time I did my retirement visa extension I sailed through in 10 minutes with no questions asked. If there were a third option I'd probably incorporate that too and aim for 8 minutes.

I've lived in Africa, Pakistan, the UAE and Thailand now for a total of almost 35 years. A good deal of one's life in the third world is spent in the quest of one rubber stamp or another, all of which probably put the icing on the cake of my Type A personality. Be Over-Prepared is my motto.[/quote:1iuexe3s]

Thanks for your post X in Pattaya

Ditto moi.
Good to see I'm not alone!

I have a Type A personality.Anally retentive?

[x in pattaya]

I have a Type A personality.Anally retentive?


For the right price, big boy, and to cater to your special needs, I could be anally expulsive.

Actually she did sell in June, but not for 2M she sold for 1.5M. But not sure what that has to do with this thread?

Nothing at all. I was simply mildly amused that a 38 year old, with a culinary degree but working in law enforcement (but not a policeman), on a salary of $100,000 a year, could afford to moor and maintain a $2,000,000 yacht in California and buy his apartment in Pattaya on a credit card - nearly as amused as I was to note that you had discovered the fountain of youth, having been 41 (9 years off retiring at 50) in February last year!

Last year I had planned on semi- retiring at 48 not 50 as I was going to work only a few months each of my last two years. Anyway, I don't really need to explain myself to you ... or anyone else. Just because you don't understand my circumstances don't assume that I am being less the honest. I was born Jan 2, 1970 if you want to PM me I will send you my full name so you can google me and it will tell you all about the yacht as well as what I do for a living as I have written exams and manuals for my organization. Nevertheless the one thing that I won't stand for is anyone questioning my veracity.

Photos of yacht, me in the galley of my yacht, me piloting my yacht and of the view from my new condo.

More photos to hopefully put this to rest.

Nevertheless the one thing that I won't stand for is anyone questioning my voracity.The mem'sahibs never question my voracity either. It's their veracity I sometimes doubt

[elephantspike]

Or your vociferousness? :joker:

Hey, all seriousness aside, the above post GBMGymnast is perfect to demonstrate the new highslide feature. Click on any one of those images and it shows you a slideshow of all the images in the post. Neat, huh?

[x in pattaya]

Last year I had planned on semi- retiring at 48 not 50 as I was going to work only a few months each of my last two years.

Just keep in mind that if you want a "retirement visa," you'll need (among other things) to be 50 or over.

Last year I had planned on semi- retiring at 48 not 50 as I was going to work only a few months each of my last two years. Anyway, I don't really need to explain myself to you ... or anyone else. Just because you don't understand my circumstances don't assume that I am being less the honest. I was born Jan 2, 1970 if you want to PM me I will send you my full name so you can google me and it will tell you all about the yacht as well as what I do for a living as I have written exams and manuals for my organization. Nevertheless the one thing that I won't stand for is anyone questioning my veracity.

GBMG,

you can send me anyone's name you like, and stand for whatever you like - you are quite correct that you don't need to explain yourself to me or anyone else at all. I actually have little interest in understanding your circumstances (although I must confess I am mildly curious about the uniform, which I do not recognize) - I simply find that it is nice to know that my memory is still working properly when I notice an inconsistency in a posting - don't flatter yourself that you have been singled out for special treatment!

I was basing my point on what you wrote in February ( where-would-you-buy-in-pattaya-jomtien-t13793-45.html#p133404 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/where-would-you-buy-in-pattaya-jomtien-t13793-45.html#p133404) ) when you said that you were going to retire "full time" to Thailand in 9 years, which you would be able to do "at 50". The assumption I am making is based on that, as well as the knowledge that it is even more impossible to maintain a $2,000,000 yacht (and the one in the pictures, including the ones of you working in the galley with the other staff, is a nice looking one) on a salary of $100,000 a year than it is to have a private beach in Thailand (and I know the one in the photos well, having walked along it many times).

Have a pleasant retirement.

...At 720 hours per month, and at a rate of 1.5 baht per kilowatt per hour (the lowest rate), your 200 baht per month gives you around 200 watts, which would probably power your fridge and a single light bulb, but not much else, while upping it to 600 baht would put you in the 2 baht per kilowatt per hour rate and give you some 500 watts - even the best a/c, on low, cannot manage on that!.. .

Actually GF your math is not wrong but the conclusion is. Try it this way: 1.5B per kwH gives him about 133 kwH for the month or about 4.5 kwH per day. Remember that the fridge or air con or light bulb dont run 24hrs a day. Even though the air con might be "on" all day the compressor is turning on and off. Ditto the fridge. And a 100w light bulb run for 10 hrs would (finally) use 1 "kilowatt hour".
4.5 kwH per day does seem a bit on the low side though. In my studio apt (40m sq) Im running about 4 a day and I don't have AC.

But what really caught my attention was this:

...Booze is essentially one 24 pack of Chang beer a month in the fridge at 750 baht.....

Oh you poor poor man. My heart goes out to you! :crybaby:

Although I "don't have a dog in this fight", I need to step up and let the bitter old queens that don't believe all things are possible in America, so here is the truth as I KNOW it to be.

GBMGymnast is everything that he says he is...I know it will be beyond the ability of some bitter old queens to believe that a young, gay, black man could possibly own a $2,000,000 plus yacht, be highly educated in many fields, be a high level law enforcement officer, have the body of a gymnast, have the time to be a sophisticated investeror, and still have the time and money to buy and remodel a high end condo in Thailand.

We kept our yachts in the same marina in Los Angeles and I have spent many hours on board LAGACY both at the dock and underway. My Thai partner and I were on onboard when GBMGymnast took her to the ship yard to be hauled out of the water for inspection by the gentleman that bought her. She did indeed sell for between 1.5 and 2 million dollars and was promptly take to Panama before crossing the Atlantic and on to the Suez Canal. All of the pictures that you see are REAL...as are his personal pictures. (P.S. If you don't believe that I have a yacht...stop by Oud's Place and ask...Jack, Ralph and Oud have been out on it and have the pictues to prove it)

I have seen him in uniform with abadge and a big gun on his hip many times. He is a very sophisticated investor and has done much better than quite well. He does indeed drive a late model Lotus and a 7series BMW. I attended his 39th BDay tonight in LA.

He has achieved far more in his short 39 years than his critics on this board will achieve in their total lives.

Before you start yapping about me and what my motives might be...I am well know to many of the posters on this board who know full well that I speak truth, so don't make a bigger fool of yourselves by continuing this line of bitter posting. Here is my Partner, GBMGymnast, and my self aboard LAGACY.

[Smiles]

" ... But what really caught my attention was this:

...Booze is essentially one 24 pack of Chang beer a month in the fridge at 750 baht.....

Oh you poor poor man. My heart goes out to you! :crybaby:
Don't worry Kenc, it ain't all that bad. My drinking habits are actually quite similar to my habits pre-retirement (in Canada) . . . i.e. I don't drink very much at all at home, much preferring to go out to a pub or club if I'm in the mood. Pot drinks only rarely at home: almost never beer, and never whiskey. Strangely he's come to having a glass or two of red wine at the cocktail hour, and that's about it for home drinking for us.
So my case of Chang Beer lasts quite a long time.

Cheers ...

Although I "don't have a dog in this fight", I need to step up and let the bitter old queens that don't believe all things are possible in America know ...

Soi 10 Tom,

you need to re-read what I wrote. I never said that "a young, gay, black man could (not) possibly own a $2,000,000 plus yacht, be highly educated in many fields, be a high level law enforcement officer, have the body of a gymnast, have the time to be a sophisticated investeror, and still have the time and money to buy and remodel a high end condo in Thailand" - and I actually do believe that virtually anything is possible in (and, regrettably, by) America. What I said was that his posts were notably inconsistent and contradicted each other (something most in law enforcement would automatically not do), and that it was impossible to maintain a $2,000,000 yacht on a salary of $100,000 per year. If you disagree with either of those statements, please say why; as a very general rule, for example, I and those I know who own boats, big and small, plan on spending around 10% of their value in annual maintenance costs (not including running costs) - read GMBG's previous posts and you will see that his requests for financial advice on mortgages, property, etc, and the extensive details he gives of his financial standing, even itemising his expenditure, are all based on his salary and his pension alone which he had no hesitation in giving in detail.

My perceived criticism of him has nothing whatsoever to do with the prejudices you credit me with; it is simply a result of remembering a post which made little sense at the time, made less sense after his post in this thread, and make even less sense now after reading your post - buying a small condo (which is not actually " high end") to retire to, on a credit card, in a falling property market, in Pattaya, after asking for advice on where to borrow the money to fund it from posters on SGF, etc, are simply not the normal signs of a " sophisticated investor" who is a self-made multi-millionaire and everything else you say he is. I am not calling either of you a liar, simply pointing out a logical, reasoned and perfectly justifiable conclusion and showing what led me to it.

Your comparison of what he has achieved compared with myself (it can only be me you are referring to) is totally baseless, as you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what I have achieved, either in 39 years (short or otherwise) or in any other timeframe, nor do I have any intention of enlightening you - as you appear to judge people by the size of their boat or their gun, their cars, rank, medals, physical attributes, education or any other criteria which I personally find relatively meaningless when judging someone there would be little point.

Actually GF your math is not wrong but the conclusion is. ..... 4.5 kwH per day does seem a bit on the low side though. In my studio apt (40m sq) Im running about 4 a day and I don't have AC.

I quite agree, Kenc - I was only using the fridge, etc, as an example. As I like hot showers and have 6 kw shower heaters, 4.5 kwH a day would not actually be enough to keep me in hot water even in the dark (literally, not metaphorically!).


But what really caught my attention was this:

...Booze is essentially one 24 pack of Chang beer a month in the fridge at 750 baht.....

Oh you poor poor man. My heart goes out to you! :crybaby:

You must have missed my mentioning my total spend in bars in the last 5 years as being under 1,000 baht (and I don't drink at home) - or was I just undeserving of any sympathy??

[quote="Soi 10 Tom":12o5hage]Although I "don't have a dog in this fight", I need to step up and let the bitter old queens that don't believe all things are possible in America know ...

Soi 10 Tom,

you need to re-read what I wrote. I never said that "a young, gay, black man could (not) possibly own a $2,000,000 plus yacht, be highly educated in many fields, be a high level law enforcement officer, have the body of a gymnast, have the time to be a sophisticated investeror, and still have the time and money to buy and remodel a high end condo in Thailand" - and I actually do believe that virtually anything is possible in (and, regrettably, by) America. What I said was that his posts were notably inconsistent and contradicted each other (something most in law enforcement would automatically not do), and that it was impossible to maintain a $2,000,000 yacht on a salary of $100,000 per year. If you disagree with either of those statements, please say why; as a very general rule, for example, I and those I know who own boats, big and small, plan on spending around 10% of their value in annual maintenance costs (not including running costs) - read GMBG's previous posts and you will see that his requests for financial advice on mortgages, property, etc, and the extensive details he gives of his financial standing, even itemising his expenditure, are all based on his salary and his pension alone which he had no hesitation in giving in detail.

My perceived criticism of him has nothing whatsoever to do with the prejudices you credit me with; it is simply a result of remembering a post which made little sense at the time, made less sense after his post in this thread, and make even less sense now after reading your post - buying a small condo (which is not actually " high end") to retire to, on a credit card, in a falling property market, in Pattaya, after asking for advice on where to borrow the money to fund it from posters on SGF, etc, are simply not the normal signs of a " sophisticated investor" who is a self-made multi-millionaire and everything else you say he is. I am not calling either of you a liar, simply pointing out a logical, reasoned and perfectly justifiable conclusion and showing what led me to it.

Your comparison of what he has achieved compared with myself (it can only be me you are referring to) is totally baseless, as you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what I have achieved, either in 39 years (short or otherwise) or in any other timeframe, nor do I have any intention of enlightening you - as you appear to judge people by the size of their boat or their gun, their cars, rank, medals, physical attributes, education or any other criteria which I personally find relatively meaningless when judging someone there would be little point.[/quote:12o5hage]

Often it is not the actual words that we use that convey the feelings and attitudes that we are sending out to the world. Words are often used to hide the actual message. I invite you to reread your post with an eye for the way you sound...your tone....your need to dig out every little inconsistancy in detail (as seen by you)...the underlying "I'm so much smarter than you, and here is the proof" and "You're so dumb or lying" attitude. If I have mis read your underlying message I do apologise, but once again I invite you to reread your post with an eye to the bitter angry nit picky tone that is felt when reading your post.

I, also, invite you to think about the fact that the secret to wealth in competently managed and highly leveraged debt. If a credit card company is so foolish as to give ZERO % on $100,000 for the life of the loan to their best qualified barrowers with the hope that the barrower will add debt to the card or be late on just one payment thereby canceling out the ZERO % and allowing the interest rate to be raised to 18 or 24%, then a sophisticated investor would snap up every penny offered, never use the card again and put the card on e-auto pay so the payment s will never be late. I would also point out to you that sophicated investors know that there is no need to buy at the absolute bottom of any market...most especially if one is going to keep the investment long term and all of the other key elements are in place. ZERO % financing being one the the key elements.

Those of us who have succeeded in the California realestate market over the long haul have used every borrowing trick in the book, and were smart enough to get out before the crash...which we all saw coming. With a salary of $100,000 US it was common for sophisicated realestate investors to earn a $1,000,000 or more a year buying, remodeling (Gay Wash) and reselling...commonly called flipping. The formula is simple....buy a run down house in a great neighborhood (Beverly HIll, Brentwood, Malibu, etc.)...do a "Gay Wash" using a contractor that worked exclusivly for you.....sell it through a Realtor who you used exclusively and charged you a discounted sales commission. It was common for a period of about 10 years (up until the subprime crash) to earn about $250,000 per flipped house. In fact the subprime market is what made it all possible.

Prehaps the above information will provide you with a general outline as to how one could acquire and maintain not only a large yacht but the life style to go with it....and why one might still be in persuit of "The Deal" when it comes to financing a condo on a credit card.

[x in pattaya]

Often it is not the actual words that we use that convey the feelings and attitudes that we are sending out to the world. Words are often used to hide the actual message.

Quite often we rely on intonation, facial expressions and body language to fully understand what's being said, and those things are not available in this environment. Often leads to misunderstanding.

Those of us who have succeeded in the California realestate market over the long haul have used every borrowing trick in the book, and were smart enough to get out before the crash...which we all saw coming. With a salary of $100,000 US it was common for sophisicated realestate investors to earn a $1,000,000 or more a year buying, remodeling (Gay Wash) and reselling...commonly called flipping. The formula is simple....buy a run down house in a great neighborhood (Beverly HIll, Brentwood, Malibu, etc.)...do a "Gay Wash" using a contractor that worked exclusivly for you.....sell it through a Realtor who you used exclusively and charged you a discounted sales commission. It was common for a period of about 10 years (up until the subprime crash) to earn about $250,000 per flipped house. In fact the subprime market is what made it all possible.



I have friends who did well doing this, and not necessarily in those neighborhoods. Buy a house in Watts, and pretty it up, and sell it. Too bad it's now a distant memory!

"nit-picky" - guilty as charged, 100%.

"bitter, angry" - no, at least not until some fat old queen who knows nothing about me interfered and, for no reason I am aware of, called me a "bitter old queen" and, with even less reason, assumed that I was a racist.

Yes, I made no secret that I saw inconsistencies - to me, however, they were hardly "little" and were so glaring that I was reminded of the previous posts nearly a year ago. I have a memory for detail and although now retired my work occasionally depended on spotting such inconsistencies, so it has now become natural - it is not something you can just "switch off", but I know my friends well enough (and they me!) for it not to be a problem!

Although there are obviously so many differences in "understanding" that we are sometimes speaking a different language, I simply found (and still find) it bizarre that someone with a couple of million dollars in the bank and a pension of nearly 300,000 baht a month, would say that he hoped it would still be possible to live on around 40,000 baht a month when he moved to Thailand. It simply raised the question "why?" - why would he want to live on that amount and why did he previously say that he owned a $2,000,000 yacht which he was selling if any additional funds, such as this, were not "figured-in" to the sums he was now openly discussing? After you made it clear (and I have every reason to believe you, and none not to) that it is considerably more than a couple of million it changed the question from "why?" to "why??"!! (I must emphasise that this is purely rhetorical and an explanation of my "nit-picking", not a question either asking for or expecting an answer).

I have re-read not only my post but also those made in February last which I provided a link to - again purely rhetorical, but did you read them before you posted, either on the 3rd or earlier today? Assuming that you did, did you not notice that "debt-management" (at considerably more than your "ZERO %" interest) and "The Deal" were dismissed virtually out-of-hand?

I am well aware of those in the property market using "every trick in the book" to finance their deals (not only in California) and the view (particularly in the US) that it is a "fact that the secret to wealth is competently managed and highly leveraged debt". While both are unavoidably true I find them as unpleasant as the people who use them to get rich at other people's expense, as there are other ways of getting sufficiently rich without, to put it bluntly, ripping other people off, and which would not have resulted in millions becoming unemployed and destitute over the next year or more.

Before you imagine that I am being "bitter" or "angry" because of some personal misfortune, I should point out that I am now at the age GBMG is planning to retire at and that I have already been retired in Thailand for fifteen years, with "sufficient" to enjoy my life to the full (without ever having had any debt, managed or otherwise).

Many of those in Thailand, and particularly in Pattaya, are far from being whom they either seem or claim to be - if they were the number of ex-SAS/GSG9/Spetznaz/Delta Force/CIA/MI6/NYFD/SWAT/Law Enforcement etc here, as well as all the ex-brain surgeons/Para-medics/scientists/university lecturers, etc, would make it one of the safest as well as one of the most intellectual places on the planet, and those who have come by their wealth by intellect, hard work and prudent but fair investment (farang and Thai alike) would make it one of the least corrupt. I can see no reason why those posting here should be anything but a cross-section of such a society, so I make no apology for highlighting inconsistencies if I happen to notice them. As X rightly points out, often these are misunderstandings - sometimes, however, they are not.

"nit-picky" - guilty as charged, 100%.

"bitter, angry" - no, at least not until some fat old queen who knows nothing about me interfered and, for no reason I am aware of, called me a "bitter old queen" and, with even less reason, assumed that I was a racist.

Yes, I made no secret that I saw inconsistencies - to me, however, they were hardly "little" and were so glaring that I was reminded of the previous posts nearly a year ago. I have a memory for detail and although now retired my work occasionally depended on spotting such inconsistencies, so it has now become natural - it is not something you can just "switch off", but I know my friends well enough (and they me!) for it not to be a problem!

Although there are obviously so many differences in "understanding" that we are sometimes speaking a different language, I simply found (and still find) it bizarre that someone with a couple of million dollars in the bank and a pension of nearly 300,000 baht a month, would say that he hoped it would still be possible to live on around 40,000 baht a month when he moved to Thailand. It simply raised the question "why?" - why would he want to live on that amount and why did he previously say that he owned a $2,000,000 yacht which he was selling if any additional funds, such as this, were not "figured-in" to the sums he was now openly discussing? After you made it clear (and I have every reason to believe you, and none not to) that it is considerably more than a couple of million it changed the question from "why?" to "why??"!! (I must emphasise that this is purely rhetorical and an explanation of my "nit-picking", not a question either asking for or expecting an answer).

I have re-read not only my post but also those made in February last which I provided a link to - again purely rhetorical, but did you read them before you posted, either on the 3rd or earlier today? Assuming that you did, did you not notice that "debt-management" (at considerably more than your "ZERO %" interest) and "The Deal" were dismissed virtually out-of-hand?

I am well aware of those in the property market using "every trick in the book" to finance their deals (not only in California) and the view (particularly in the US) that it is a "fact that the secret to wealth is competently managed and highly leveraged debt". While both are unavoidably true I find them as unpleasant as the people who use them to get rich at other people's expense, as there are other ways of getting sufficiently rich without, to put it bluntly, ripping other people off, and which would not have resulted in millions becoming unemployed and destitute over the next year or more.

Before you imagine that I am being "bitter" or "angry" because of some personal misfortune, I should point out that I am now at the age GBMG is planning to retire at and that I have already been retired in Thailand for fifteen years, with "sufficient" to enjoy my life to the full (without ever having had any debt, managed or otherwise).

Many of those in Thailand, and particularly in Pattaya, are far from being whom they either seem or claim to be - if they were the number of ex-SAS/GSG9/Spetznaz/Delta Force/CIA/MI6/NYFD/SWAT/Law Enforcement etc here, as well as all the ex-brain surgeons/Para-medics/scientists/university lecturers, etc, would make it one of the safest as well as one of the most intellectual places on the planet, and those who have come by their wealth by intellect, hard work and prudent but fair investment (farang and Thai alike) would make it one of the least corrupt. I can see no reason why those posting here should be anything but a cross-section of such a society, so I make no apology for highlighting inconsistencies if I happen to notice them. As X rightly points out, often these are misunderstandings - sometimes, however, they are not.

Gentelman of the jury; I rest my case. I think that the defendant has convicted himself on all counts.

[Aunty]

[quote="Gone Fishing":1el07fvi]"nit-picky" - guilty as charged, 100%.

"bitter, angry" - no, at least not until some fat old queen who knows nothing about me interfered and, for no reason I am aware of, called me a "bitter old queen" and, with even less reason, assumed that I was a racist. Blah blah blah blah blah

Gentelman of the jury; I rest my case. I think that the defendant has convicted himself on all counts.[/quote:1el07fvi]

I think you're right! Oh and there's one other charge you forgot to add to the list. Board's biggest bore.

[x in pattaya]

I realize this is overkill, but the last time I did my retirement visa extension I sailed through in 10 minutes with no questions asked. If there were a third option I'd probably incorporate that too and aim for 8 minutes.

Just to confirm that having all your ducks in a row can speed things up...

Although it was three weeks ahead of my retirement extension expiring, about mid-morning I realized that I had hospital appointments coming up so it would best to do the renewal now. Got the bank manager's letter and copied my bank book and reached Jomtien Immigrations at 11:30 in the morning ... on the first Monday of the month ... in January. I'm bad at estimating crowds, but the people there were definitely several hundred. The farang Immigration person who wanders about helping people kept muttering about it being the most people he'd ever seen at one time. Only ten people ahead of me for retirement extensions, but things shut down for awhile at lunchtime.

If I'm Felix Ungar,six of the 10 people ahead of me could have been Oscar Madison. Forms crammed into the butt pockets of shorts that were in need of laundering if not burning, things not signed, photocopies missing ( requiring that they be sent to the photocopy shop, delaying everyone who was waiting), no visa photos (ditto). I know some people complain about Immigration personnel, but if it were me that had to deal with these applicant-cretins everyday, I wouldn't exhibit the patience that these people do.

Anyway I had the forms filled out & signed & photo attached, bank book copies & Manager's letter, embassy letter and pension & SS letters, and passport photocopies ready ... once my number was called, start to finish, a personal record ... under five minutes. I collect the passport & visa tomorrow. I know most people probably could care less, but for those of us who are neurotic about such things (or as someone thoughtfully described me above, anal retentives) achieving a desired rubber-stamp without a hitch is as close to nirvana as one can hope to get.

[x in pattaya]

Did you have any thoughts on the money stuff? I know my electricity and bandwith requirements are excessive and wonder how badly I'll be gouged for them?

Internet connectivity in Thailand is a sore point for most residential customers. If you're in Bangkok and pay business rates I believe (once again no personal experience, but from what I read) you might be satisfied, but it can be one of the more aggravating issues even for someone just using a single computer at home. At times it's great and other times you'll be pulling your hair out. Whoever the ISP is, I think they still depend on CAT for connectivity so if an Egyptian fishing trawler cuts a cable in the Mediteranean, everyone may get hit with excruciatingly slow connections.

Although Thailand is labeled a third world country, many things like medical services, appliances & electronic equipment, all the useless stuff you can find in shopping malls, etc are as good as or better than you'll find elsewhere. Of course, this assumes an urban location. Life in the boonies is ... um ... like life in the boonies anywhere.

Do keep in mind that electricity is 220/240 v. These days most things can deal with the change in voltage one way or another, but it might matter for some things. Also bringing a load of electronic equipment or appliances into Thailand will probably attract the interest of Customs who will hit you with hefty duties (and may want to know why you need 7 computers or whatever). Most things you probably want are available here for reasonable prices. With computers you need to specify legal operating system software. Just about everything available in terms of software is a rip-off copy, but original system stuff is available if you specify it.

One issue you may not have considered is your visa. If you're here on a retirement visa, you cannot be employed. Of course, if you're doing something at home and dealing with people back in the US, etc, no one will know or care, but if you appear to be running a business, that can open a Pandora's box of problems on a retirement visa.

I've got a pension, social security and investments. For the time being, I set it up so that some of the dividend and interest income added to the pension & SS provide me with a sufficient income stream and allow for capital appreciation as well as some dividend reinvestment. Obviously an unprecendented financial & economic crisis weren't factors in my planning, but under normal circumstances my planning provides some built in inflation protection. Ideally, based on my planning, I'm good for 10 years or so before I might even consider selling off anything and even then it may not be neccesary. So basically I based my planning on the income flow from my three cash sources rather than a certain overall portfolio value. I have every intention of staying here until i'm a puff of smoke over the Wat Chai creamatorium (oops...that should have been crematorium... the creamatoriums are located on Soi Twilight or at Hero massage), so my plans also are determined by cost of living in Thailand only.

Business expenses aside, I think you should be able to maintain a comfortable life style between $30,000 to $50,000 a year locally (exchange rate willing). The upper limit would put you out of the league of most resident farangs. Travelling outside the country or maintaining a home in the US, etc would obviously be on top of that.


I look older & haggard because I'm old & haggard This can easily be solved by not looking in mirrors and having a reasonably young, handsome Thai male relating to you in a way that makes you think, "Hey, I can't look that bad." The mirror thing is probably the most important.

Thanks, Colonel, that at least give me an idea. I'm thinking if I have $1,500,000 (plus or minus, and I don't know how much plus or minus) or so in my piggy bank and no debt starting out I could safely go for 15, 20 years withdrawing $50-60,000 US per year. I don't know if that's accurate.


If over a reasonable period of time you invest $1,500,000 in an internationally diversified portfolio of stocks with a yield of 4%, then you could probably have $60,000 per year for the rest of your life.

As an alternative, if you really are going to be unsociable enough to indulge in unprotected anal sex in Thailand, then you could probably spend $100,000 per year due to the reduced life expectation.

[Bob]

If over a reasonable period of time you invest $1,500,000 in an internationally diversified portfolio of stocks with a yield of 4%, then you could probably have $60,000 per year for the rest of your life.

And, had you started that one year ago, you'd maybe have about $750,000.00 left? If you might need any of the money within a few years, none of that portion ought to be in any stock portfolio. Or, if ol' Bernie Madoff invested it for you, you'd have none of it left!

As an alternative, if you were, let's say, 60 years old and expected a life span of another 25 years, you could invest most of the money in guaranteed (FDIC) bank certificates and likely be guaranteed to have $60,000.00 a year or more for that time period. A lowly 3% cd would bring you $45,000.00 per year and you'd only start eating into principal at the rate of $15,000.00 per year. Then, of course, social security would kick in at age 62 and add another fair chunk.

All in all, if you've got a nest egg currently worth 1.5 million and you're 53 and still working, hell, you ought to be fine unless you lose a chunk of that to some unwise investments. It's actually nice to see somebody worrying about such things.

And, had you started that one year ago, you'd maybe have about $750,000.00 left? If you might need any of the money within a few years, none of that portion ought to be in any stock portfolio. Or, if ol' Bernie Madoff invested it for you, you'd have none of it left!


Quite correct. That's why I suggested investing it over a period of time, to avoid pouring all the money in at near the top of the market.
You would also diversify it internationally, so as not to be over dependent on the performance of indebted & declining countries (UK, US, Spain etc). History shows all great & successful countries crumble.

[quiet1]

Without quoting specific posts above about having $1million or $2million in principal, or having an annual disposable income of $60k to $100k to spend in Thailand, I wonder what such a life style would be like?

As I have exposed before, I am not your typical "sex tourist" living in Thailand, as I have almost zero libido, so I guess that saves money on off fees and tips. (B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $20k-$21k per year)

I also am not a heavy drinker. Well, actually I can be, but I rarely go out to bars and do so. I actually can outdrink just about anybody, which when I was younger was a novelty. (I have a liver abnormality, and I somehow process alcohol differently than a "normal" person. I have *never* had a hangover.) I also don't enjoy drinking alone at home. Hence, my monthly alcohol consumption is B1,000 or less.

I own a modest condo, so I don't spend money on rent. My electricity is billed directly by the electricity company, so again lowest possible. I spend B1000/mo on a reasonable TT&T broadband internet plan.

I don't own a car or motosai, so no maintenance, insurance or petrol costs.

I'm not a clothes freak. I rotate a basic wardrobe of about 5 shirts, 3 slacks, 4 shorts, and 6 T-shirts. I have one or two sets of more formal clothes for travel. I don't attend weddings or funerals, so have no *really* formal stuff like a tux or even 2-piece suit.

All that as a prelude to say that I spend less than $1,000* per month living in Jomtien. I'd certainly be at a loss to spend $60k per year!

My reason to post is to perhaps balance some of the more extravagant lifestyles suggested above and, more in line with Smiles' post, to assure the forum stalkers who may look in upon this thread that a more modest means can defintely support retirement in Thailand.

*footnote: US$1,000 is currently B35,000, GBP 685, EURO 737, AUD 1400

[edited to correct: B730,000 ~ $20k-$21k per year]

[x in pattaya]

(B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $10k-$11k per year)


*footnote: US$1,000 is currently B35,000, GBP 685, EURO 737, AUD 1400

So let's see, B730,000/ B35,000 comes out to $10,000 ??? :study:

[Smiles]

" ... As I have exposed before, I am not your typical "sex tourist" living in Thailand, as I have almost zero libido, so I guess that saves money on off fees and tips. (B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $10k-$11k per year) ... "
Why the zero libido? I would not bring it up except for the fact you did yourself.
I suspect that there are either no other dudes on this Board who have such an interesting 'problem', or, none are about to admit it . . . being ~ as they are ~ surrounded on all sides by hundreds (nay, thousands) of Members here who think of little else besides sex.
Up to you if you wish to elaborate.

Cheers ...

Could anyone please just give me a really rough size of the nest egg they'd recommend before stopping work for a middle-class/upper-middle-class lifestyle in Thailand?

Brandon,

I think this is really a question for a financial expert that requires little or no knowledge of Thailand - although many here have the latter, few are the former (and if they were, they would probably be charging you for the information and not posting it here for free!). There are simply far too many variables, not only in terms of return on investments, but also personally. I don't just mean lifestyles, but also responsibilities - can your nest egg be spent so that it ends (hopefully) when you do, or do you have any heirs / partners to think about (or are you going to live forever), etc, etc. What of any future plans or aspirations - for example, I have more than sufficient for my own wants and needs (which is, apparently, far less than the vast majority of high rollers posting here) but more would be nice so that we could visit some of the places and (assuming I still can) do some of the things I did before we met. Also, and it is probably the most important and most difficult decision, what is the balance you want between youth and wealth - as one goes up, the other inevitably goes down!

Your possible monthly expenditure and living costs here are a different matter, and Smiles, X, Bob and Quiet 1's views and estimates of expenditure have been agreed by most posting on the subject as pretty reasonable and informative - just how much or, within reason, how little you spend is entirely up to you and although it is easy to compare costs it is well nigh impossible to compare lifestyles. One friend of mine who was complaining to me a few years ago about his Swiss bank having converted some of his funds to Euros (he would probably not be complaining now!) budgeted (again, a few years ago) a minimum of 75,000 baht a month for himself, his wife and young daughter just to eat at home (not including eating out), and a typical meal was a bowl of spaghetti bolognese (topped with some very expensive cheese, washed down with a glass of very mediocre wine)!

If you want to compare costs then you have to be pretty specific, as although you will get some honest opinions (as well as a lot of bullshit) you have to realise that what one person sees as "reasonable" in terms of lifestyle / quality / cost others will see as cheap /expensive / luxury / survival, etc. It is also very misleading to compare "like for like" with only a few selected items, be it food, cars, houses or boys - you need to look at the overall picture and that is not always easy. As has been said elsewhere, if your sole reason for retiring or moving to anywhere in Thailand is financial, then don't even consider it.



I think you're right! Oh and there's one other charge you forgot to add to the list. Board's biggest bore.

Well, Aunty, anything is better than the Board's biggest bullshitter - but at least you are thinking (or so you claim), which is unusual.

[quiet1]

(B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $10k-$11k per year)


*footnote: US$1,000 is currently B35,000, GBP 685, EURO 737, AUD 1400

So let's see, B730,000/ B35,000 comes out to $10,000 ??? :study:
Whoops. B73,000 ~ $20=-$21k. Khor toht!

[quiet1]

" ... As I have exposed before, I am not your typical "sex tourist" living in Thailand, as I have almost zero libido, so I guess that saves money on off fees and tips. (B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $10k-$11k per year) ... "Why the zero libido? I would not bring it up except for the fact you did yourself.
I suspect that there are either no other dudes on this Board who have such an interesting 'problem', or, none are about to admit it . . . being ~ as they are ~ surrounded on all sides by hundreds (nay, thousands) of Members here who think of little else besides sex.
Up to you if you wish to elaborate.Nothing much to elaborate on. Sex is a very low priority and becomes increasingly so as time goes by. Tried testosterone therapy, amongst other things, and it lead nowhere but to a killer zit on my butt cheek that required minor surgery to remove. (I have before and after surgery pictures of it, if there are any morbidly curious folks here.) :pukeright: :pukeleft: My USA doctor tried testosterone injections, pills and an ointment. When I was in my early 40's he said I had the testosterone level of a 75 year old man. Though I haven't checked, I'm sure it's gone down since then.

I do have occasional gusts of sexual interest, but they are brief and infrequent.

Enough thread drift (hijacking?) for now.