You Can Take The Boy out of the Jungle...but

[Dodger]

During my last holiday I lived in a remote farming village in Isaan with my bf Tape where I had plenty of time to observe Thai lifestyles, as well as the nature of the boys who reside there. I walked away from this experience with a little better understanding of why these boys do some of the things they do when, and if, they transition from the farm to the working scene. IтАЩm sharing my thoughts on this subject тАУ just because I enjoy sharing my thoughtsтАжnot because I think I have all the right answers, because I surely do not.

As I described in my last trip report, the Thais live and function within their villages in a very collaborative and interdependent manner. They are extremely dedicated to focusing on the task at hand, regardless if they like the task or not, and donтАЩt ask a lot of questions (or think too much) along the way. In the dynamics of the rural Thai lifestyle, each member of the village, regardless of his/hers age bracket or social standing within the village, makes a daily contribution to the community to remain in good standing. Even the young children do chores and tasks without being asked as a way of receiving merit. Yes, our children in the West do chores and tasks as well, but rarely as a means of gaining merit. ItтАЩs usually the result of a command or expectation expressed by the parents, or, in some cases, motivated by a financial allowanceтАж(a kiddy tip).

The Thai boy who enters the working scene in the sex industry exhibits the same exact behaviors as if he were still back in the village, where he focuses on the task-at-hand, regardless if he likes the task or not, provides his service gracefully (usually), and places the importance of receiving merit (good face) within his working boy sub-community as a top priority. He then goes on to share what he has earned within his sub-community (his new village), in exactly the same collaborative and interdependent manner as is done back in his home village. Village life rotates on a day-by-day basis where a lot of the focus is on тАЬthe momentтАЭ versus spending a lot of time planning for the future. They live within the moment and no man stands alone. As a result of these learned behavior patterns, the working boy doesnтАЩt think too much or ask a lot of questions, thus the reason you can rarely see inside him.

On the working scene, the boy understands from day-one that his assigned task is to make his farang customer happy. If making the farang happy includes telling him that he loves him for instanceтАжthen he will oblige. If making the farang happy includes forming a relationship beyond his normal scope of services, then he will also oblige. Understanding this I donтАЩt believe that the boy is doing this as a method of deceiving the farang, at least under the interpretation of the meaning of deceit in the farang culture, conversely, the boy sees this as just one more component of the customer satisfaction task which he is obligated to provide. The task-at-hand is satisfying the farang тАУ the objective of the task is to earn money in order to gain merit within the family structure back in his village.

Thai boys, at least the 80% of the population who live in rural farming communities, eat their meals while sitting on the floor with their legs crossed and their heads facing down towards the floor - using their hands as the primary eating utensils. Rarely, if ever do the younger members of the family speak a word. As most of you are probably aware, they also eat their food in a collaborative and interdependent manner, as they routinely share food from each others plates and even share soup by eating from one bowl. If a boy on the working scene declines your offer to join you at a restaurant for a meal, or if he does accept your invitation and ends up sitting at the table with a catatonic stare on his face, this is the reason why. He is totally out of his element and not enjoying himself in the least.

IтАЩve also learned by observing Tapes family and numerous other families in his village, that Thai children take the words of the village elders as the absolute and unquestionable truth, regardless of the subject matter. This is quite different from interactions in the West where the absolute opposite occurs. The older a person is тАУ the less attention heтАЩs given. The number one obstacle which has created so many problems with raising children in the West is the fact that the children donтАЩt think their parents understand them, thus retaliate by blocking them out of their lives and polarizing the relationship. In Thailand, the children donтАЩt seek to be understood тАУ they simply listen to the elders and live by what they hear. This has a significant impact on Thai boy/farang interactions, especially when a farang becomes frustrated because the boy simply doesnтАЩt do as he asks, or doesnтАЩt even listen when the farang is trying to teach him something. It simply doesnтАЩt matter if what youтАЩre trying to teach him is valid or not, because he only REALLY listens to the voice of his family and village elders тАУ and thatтАЩs that.

Thai boys who decide to enter the working circuit come from an environment where they have placed 100% of their trust and loyalty on the family and the village elders, and then transition this trust and loyalty, temporarily, to their new sub-community on the working scene. The working boys commonly team up (and share looms with) other boys who either come from the same province or region, or in some cases, the very same village. They are instructed by those in their new community immediately, that the farang is someone who should never be trusted. One similarity I see between our two vastly different cultures, is that the element of trust has equal importance in a relationship, as in either culture, a real relationship simply doesnтАЩt stand a chance until mutual TRUST is established. I believe that this presents a larger obstacle than even the age gaps and language barriers we always seem to focus on.

On the subject of sex and sexual interactions, the rural farm boys and girls jump in the hay at any given opportunity, the same as in the West, although, even here, there seems to be some pronounced differences regarding the way they approach and regard sex emotionally. ItтАЩs my opinion, at least at this moment itтАЩs my opinion, that Thais do not relate Love and Sex the same as in western culture. For instance, I was talking to one of Tapes close friends about her boyfriendтАЩs recent departure for Bangkok to work in a gay host bar. I listened very carefully. She stated that she would miss him and worry about him being in the Big Mango for the first time, although I never once sensed that she was jealous, or for that fact, even bothered by the fact that he would be having sex with someone else. Of course she could have been concealing these private feelings, but I donтАЩt think so. The same holds true for the parents of these Thai boys (and girls). They miss their children and worry about them the same as any good parent, although the fact that their child is going to be working in or around the sex industry is simply not an issue, or a least not as much of an issue as I once believed it to be. Sex to them is almost like eating. ItтАЩs natural, itтАЩs enjoyable and itтАЩs a necessity, but the connection between the act of having sex, and the emotional connection between that sex and Love, is definitely not the same as in western culture. I really believe that Love, in the Thai culture, spawns more from TRUST than it does from sex, maybe because of the shear importance and focus on basic survival, or maybe itтАЩs that тАЬdonтАЩt think too much stuffтАЭ, who knows. I know that some will vehemently disagree with that perception and claim that this is also the case in the West, but I donтАЩt believe it. I believe that the majority of western relationships, where the couple at least claims to be in love, spawns more from sex and sexual desire than anything else. Of course trust becomes critical, especially if the couple plan to have a long term relationship, but it doesnтАЩt rank as the number one factor as in Thai culture.

My perception of that old adage weтАЩve heard so many timesтАжтАЭyou can take the boy out of the bar - but you canтАЩt take the bar out of the boyтАЭ has also changed. I believe that you can take the boy out of the jungle тАУ but you canтАЩt take the jungle out of the boy. As far as taking the bar out of the bar boy, thatтАЩs were that TRUST thing comes into play.

I welcome any positive and constructive feedback on this topic, although understand that thatтАЩs asking for a lot..


Mai pen rai

Thank you Dodger. Wonderful food for thought. Very astute and insightful observations. Your time was very well spent. Again thanks for sharing.

The same holds true for the parents of these Thai boys (and girls). They miss their children and worry about them the same as any good parent, although the fact that their child is going to be working in or around the sex industry is simply not an issue, or a least not as much of an issue as I once believed it to be.Every Thai boy I've ever asked said he's told his parents he's working in a restaurant. They say they would never tell their parents they work in the sex industry. The money they send home is from restaurant tips. For both parents and children it's "don't ask, don't tell".

[bing]

Enjoyed your observations an no doubt most of them are spot on, but while the tie to Mommie and Daddy are almost palpable, still when one of my good friends leaned English and a few words in German, he was in a sphere that included him Mom and Dad, but had moved beyond them to take responsibility for his future. He still sends money home and visits them, but he is not listening to the family as the touchstone of his life. While he respects them, he does not wish to end his days as a rice farmer. Time will tell, but I like to think he is one of the drops of water that does sparkle in the sunlight.

Great insight Dodger, and thanks for sharing

[francois]

Dodger, I think that you think too much. My head hurts trying to understand and comprehend what you wrote.

[RichLB]

Thanks, Dodger.
That's one of the best analayses I've read about the Thai culture as it relates to us older gay farang. There's an interesting addendum, though. My Thai boyfriend is no longer a young boy and approaching middle age. Watching the transition from dependency on his parent's counsel to becoming the "head of household" is difficult. He is still influenced by their opinions and those of his siblings, but as the most "successful" of them all, he has become the opinion leader of the family - a role he is not really equipped to deal with.
But, again, thanks for providing those insights. They sure seem spot on, to me.

Dodger, good insights and yes, you do think too much. A problem I share and am learning how to deal with on a day to day basis. Once in an argument with my exBF he told me that I think too much and I retorted, "And you don't think enough."

Any way, I'd like to share an insight that I learned from my exBF about the separation between sex and love. He said that sex is SOMETHING YOU DO, IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU ARE." He said that we in the west place too much emphasis on sex. "Sex is fun. That's why we do it.We ( Thai people ) can have sex with any one, man or woman, because it's just sex. It's just the body. It is not our heart ( spirit )." We show that we love each other by "TAKING CARE" of each other. So, the day I realized that he forgot to take something he needed to take with him to work with him, he had forgotten it and left it on the kitchen table, and I took it to him at work; I was taking care of him. THAT meant more to him than the amazing blow job I had given him the night before. Where as, in my western mind, when we have sex, I think it's a deep emotional connection and an expression of love... NO. For him we're just having fun. When he stops by a food stall and picks up some fried chicken and rice for dinner without me asking him... THAT is a deep emotional connection and an expression of his love for me. HE is taking care of me. Those little things make all the difference and they don't cost much.

More Thai Farang relationships would be improved if WE would learn from this concept that sex and love are not the same thing.

Very interesting insights Dodger. I'd like to get together with you and chat about this more some time. Is your background or education in sociology? I have an MA in Counseling and a BA in Psychology and Education. I think if you and I put our heads together we could write a pretty interesting article or two about Thai / Farang relationship dynamics. There have been numerous books written about the subject from a straight point of view but has there ever been one written from a gay perspective? Let me know what you think.

I'm moving back to live in BKK. Will be arriving at the end of December, PM me if you're interested in getting together.

- ajarntrade

[TrongpaiExpat]

Excellent analysis and observation.


It simply doesnтАЩt matter if what youтАЩre trying to teach him is valid or not, because he only REALLY listens to the voice of his family and village elders тАУ and thatтАЩs that.

That's the crux of the Yellow shirt people's argument that Isaan people should not be trusted with true democratic voting. You pay off the village elder and he gets the whole village to vote for his man. The Tambon and Amphoe heads gets all the village heads to vote a certain way and you don't really have to pay off that many people to influence an election.

I was at my BF home once and in the mail they had all received a government questioner. They all waited for the village head to come by and tell them what blocks to check. They then all sat in a big circle and filled out the form communally and from what I could tell were not reading the questions. The head of the family had a cheat sheet and would call out numbers only and they all checked the blocks and then signed the form and mailed them back.

I asked the BF how they vote at the polls and he said pretty much the same way, cheat sheets provided by village heads.

[puckered_penguin]

Interesting your observations. Do you think that these observations are the same for the boys from North Thailand or is limited to North-Eastern boys. As in my limited experience I find that the Northern Boys are not so community focussed.
I also think that you must have discovered in your travels why so many of these boys are dishonest and untrustworthy. Where they learn to lie and just why so much of their earnings go into the Ya Bah and late night disco communities? Do you think they are corrupted by their customers or it derives directly from the jungle?

[catawampuscat]

I was chatting with a new farang friend at dinner about going to a boy's village and staying
a few days. He seemed aghast at the concept of leaving Pattaya and the boy bars for
even a few days and I tried to explain it was a mind broading experience and helpful in
understanding the differences in our cultures and the Thai village culture. I doubt he
will ever try it but another friend at the same dinner, is almost convinced to go up to Isaan and meet the family
and have the 'village' experience.

I advised him to bring books, cds as he will have lots of time on his hands as the boy will
no doubt have many chores and people to pay respect to and friends to spend some of his
money with. It turns out to be the same village, which I have been to a number of times in
years past and it is a small world.
His bf will be flying for the first time as was mine and I told him how important photos of the
boy approaching the plane, sitting in the plane, deplaning and so on would be to the bf..

I would love it if some of the farangs that make their home in villages would write about
their lives and their perceptions from that vantage point. It would make interesting reading
and a good break from the "how drunk I was, how many boys I had, how much I paid, type
of postings that usually recount ones visit to Thailand. (not that there is anything wrong with that). right on dodger and pat yourself on your own back for having one hell of a trip and for sharing it with us. see you next time you are in Pattaya.. :cat:

He seemed aghast at the concept of leaving Pattaya and the boy bars for even a few days and I tried to explain it was a mind broading experience and helpful in understanding the differences in our cultures and the Thai village culture.I understand how he feels. I was seeing a bar boy from Udon Thani who persuaded me to spend some time in his village. It was the worst few days of my life. Up and down a vertical ladder to get in and out of the house, cold showers, squat toilets, mosquitoes, drunken villagers, endless conversations in Thai going on all around me where every second word seemed to be "farang". I will never repeat it.

[dab69]

sure blows to heck the western superstitious concept of sex is a sin/abuse
and the slanted statistics to "prove" it.

[catawampuscat]

Quite apt, Curious ! I like the jibe of your sail.
On my trips to Nong Khai, I stayed in a little hotel nearby for 300 or 400B. a day with
a/c, hot water and nice commode toilet. I wanted to have some chance at some play and
figured it would be impossible if I stayed in the house, even in the best room with the
mosquito netting. My old bf had put in a commode in the house toilet but never bothered to set
up the plumbing for the flusher but still one didn't have to squat but one did have to self flush.

Even if you study the Thai language , the local folks will speak a dialect and you will be
an oddity and someone to look at and hopefully finance some food and some beer that nite
but still an unique experience that you will remember.. :cat:

Interesting your observations. Do you think that these observations are the same for the boys from North Thailand or is limited to North-Eastern boys. As in my limited experience I find that the Northern Boys are not so community focussed.
I also think that you must have discovered in your travels why so many of these boys are dishonest and untrustworthy. Where they learn to lie and just why so much of their earnings go into the Ya Bah and late night disco communities? Do you think they are corrupted by their customers or it derives directly from the jungle?

PP, you have identified that the bar is a poor substitute for the village. Jumping to conclusions for reasons of your personal observations, which may or may not, be representative is premature. Go and design a research process or write up "Coming of Age in Soi 3".

Interesting your observations. Do you think that these observations are the same for the boys from North Thailand or is limited to North-Eastern boys. As in my limited experience I find that the Northern Boys are not so community focussed.
I also think that you must have discovered in your travels why so many of these boys are dishonest and untrustworthy. Where they learn to lie and just why so much of their earnings go into the Ya Bah and late night disco communities? Do you think they are corrupted by their customers or it derives directly from the jungle?

PP, you have identified that the bar is a poor substitute for the village. Jumping to conclusions for reasons of your personal observations, which may or may not, be representative is premature. Go and design a research process or write up "Coming of Age in Soi 3".

[Dodger]

Curious Quote:


Every Thai boy I've ever asked said he's told his parents he's working in a restaurant. They say they would never tell their parents they work in the sex industry.

Curious, I've heard the same thing for years, thus the reason I once believed that to be true, although have come to change my opinion. In almost every small town and village I've visited I seem to always run into someone I know from the working scene, e.g., a ladyboy I ran into during Songkran in the small town of Phrai, A boy who used to work in a host bar in Sunee Plaza who I spotted selling mobile phones at a small shop in Udorn, a boy I actually offed once who I bumped into at a market in Chiang Rai, and last but not least, a boy who I've seen before working at Thai Boyz Gogo - Boyztown, who now works at the Tesco Lotus in the small town of Kantharalak.

The point I would like to make, is that the word has been out regarding the activities on the working scene since the emergence of the neon lights in the early sixties. Boys from all over the country have either spent time working on the scene or know someone who has. This information has spread like light wild fire - even to the most remote villages. The parents are either knowledgeable of the servicves their children are providing, or become knowledgeable at some point. I asked this very same question to Tape once, and he just gave me a kind of sarcastic look and replied: "What do you think."

I really believe that the boys respond to us the way they do to keep face.

Francois Quote:


My head hurts trying to understand and comprehend what you wrote.

Francois: Don't feel bad - so does mine.

Ajarntrade Quote:


Very interesting insights Dodger. I'd like to get together with you and chat about this more some time. Is your background or education in sociology?

Ajarntrade: Thanks for the compliment, but I don't really have a background in anything from an educational position anyway. I dropped out of school when I was 14 y/o and never returned. I haven't seen the inside of a high school, let alone a university. I'm not complaining mind you, as I now work as an independent International Managment Consultant and have people with advanced degrees paying me money to hear my babble...go figure...LOL

Puckered penquin Quote:


Do you think they are corrupted by their customers or it derives directly from the jungle?

Puckered Penquin: I think they're corrupted by the whole scene.

Thanks to all who responded.


mai pen rai

[joe552]

Just want to add my thanks, Dodger, for your very interesting thoughts - explains a lot which had puzzled me. I also spent a little time in Isaan, but stayed in the local hotel - I don't think I'm up for the village experience. But it was the best and most memorable time I've had in LoS.

Thanks again, Dodger.

[x in pattaya]

It simply doesnтАЩt matter if what youтАЩre trying to teach him is valid or not, because he only REALLY listens to the voice of his family and village elders тАУ and thatтАЩs that.

Interesting observations, but they probably say as much about the observer as the observed. I wonder if you've read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe? Somewhat dated, but still worthwhile view of what it means to leave the village and then struggle to be a part of two worlds.

Some young men who venture into the urban jungle will always have both feet firmly planted in the village. Some will never again want to return to the village, and if they do return, they will be burdened by a feeling of frustration and contempt for their rural kin, the social structure and the voices of supposed authority. Some, maybe most, will manage to accomodate & integrate the different experiences they've had in both settings with varying degrees of success.

The two Thai men I know best who have had to straddle the two worlds both see the home village as their permanent base. One seems to have a decided preference for life back home while the other seems to travel between the two with greater ease. I would say that both would listen to the family & village voices of authority with great respect, but that doesn't mean they would accept what they hear without question ... even though the question would never be spoken out loud.



It simply doesnтАЩt matter if what youтАЩre trying to teach him...

Oh, but it does. Of course the first question might be whether they want to be taught by you at all and whether you are offering something useful or trying to change/correct them to suit your own needs.

If I was going to criticize the local rice growing techniques, I'd be (rightfully) ignored, but...

I've helped one young man learn about computers. It was something he very much wanted to learn about and, at least for awhile,it was something I knew more about than he did. It had to do with a business he wanted to set up back home. He has now already "begun operations," providing services/entertainment because he figured out the knowledge & equipment needed weren't available in his home area.

At one time he told me what his family had advised him to do in terms or employment. He has a great deal of respect and love for his family, but as he told me, "she [his mother] doesn't know computers."

He still asks me questions about his computer, the Internet, video games, etc. He listen very respectfully to my "voice of authority," but it's not that hard for me to tell when he's getting the information he wants or he's politely waiting for me stop talking.

People in Thailand are as diverse in their behavior & thinking as are people of any country, so generalizing about those things is never going to be successful. It's also possible to be overwhelmed by the perceived differences between Thais and people in our home countries. On the other hand, beneath the surface, the similarities are even more amazing.

[latintopxxx]

I've been visiting Thailand (mainly Bangkok and Pattaya) regularly for the last 5 years and I've always been amazed by the number of straight (supposedly) rent /gogo boys who are willing, able and very good at anal bottoming and see it simply as a service they need to provide to earn a living.
The only place that comes close is the poorer parts of Brazil and even there it is the younger ones, as soon as they are in their mid twenties they tend to revert to topping only.

Fascinating and revealing, Dodger, as always; I recognise so much of my experiences with my own bf in your posts.
However, may I suggest that there may be differences in "the village" between avowed ladyboys and other gay young men?
My bf, who came out to his parents as a teenager many years ago and was fullly accepted by them, had no worries about his relationship with an older gay man being recognised but tells me that he wouldn't want friends and family to think that I actually fucked him.
The acceptance of ladyboys with their clearly-defined physical and emotional role in a relationship with a gay farang may be easier to accept than the more complex ones in relationships such as mine.

[Dodger]

Nelson, it's interesting that you make that comment, because I've been thinking about the very same thing for quite a while.

The first time I ever visited a boys village was with a gay boy from a univeristy in the city of Uttaradit. His demeanor was that of a str8 boy, and I found our later (not much later) that he actually preferred the top role...(ouch) ! His family members were great, although I always felt a bit uneasy being around them as there seemed to be this certain level of disapproval, or non-acceptance, in the air.

With Tape, in his obvious position as a ladyboy, things are not the same at all. Within the family and village, he is viewed as being a "girl", and I am viewed as a guy in their eyes. With the exception of the age gap, which they don't seem to be concerned with, us having a relationship seems perfectly acceptable to them, even his grandparents and the other village elders.

With the boy from Uttaradit, when we were around his family he would usually sit across the room from me when around his family. With Tape, I have to actually push that little maniac away sometimes to keep him from embarrassing me. He will plop down right on my lap and put his arms around me right in front of grandma, and he has no reservations at all regarding this type of open display of effection.

There's always the other scenerio, where a farang thinks he is with a gay boy, although the boy is actually str8. Obviously, this would creat the types of barriers you descibed when visiting the boys family, especially if the boys wife or girlfriend are in the mix incognito

Like others, Dodger, I also think you "think too much". I also think you are reading far too much into one individual's behaviour - purely on the grounds of his behaviour with you in front of his parents, Tape's behaviour is almost atypical of Thais.

You and Ajarntrade both seem confused about the difference between love and lust, and to be surprised that Thais see them as fundamentally different. You have never made any secret of mixing the two concepts unashamedly (and if it works for you, why not?), but for someone who claims a "background or education in sociology (and) an MA in Counseling and a BA in Psychology and Education" to fail to see something quite so basic and to say that "WE" (in the West) should learn from this concept says a great deal about just how little some education is worth.

I think you are also confusing sex "at work" and "at play". To those making a living from it as well as their family / partner there is a very clear division between the two, and far from being two sides of the same coin they are unrelated. Sex in the sex industry is work - sometimes enjoyable, sometimes not, sometimes well-paid, sometimes not, but always work - nothing more, at least for the sex-worker. This may also be true in the West - I don't know, but I do not see why it should not be. Sex "at play" is something totally different, which I agree with you is "natural (and) enjoyable" for all concerned.

You seem to imply that while sex is more of "a necessity" for Thais than Farangs it somehow has less emotional meaning, that they take it less seriously, are presumably more promiscuous, and mind less about who those they love sleep with - that "sex to them is almost like eating тАж it's a necessity тАж the connection between the act of having sex, and the emotional connection between that sex and Love, is definitely not the same as in western culture." I could not disagree more.

While it may be true that "the rural farm boys and girls jump in the hay at any given opportunity, the same as in the West" this is no more and no less connected with love in the West than it is in the East. Once relationships are formed and commitments made, trust is equally important in the West as it is in Thailand, and that trust is as critical in Thailand as it is in the West when it comes to a partner's playing around. John Wayne Bobbit achieved celebrity status in the US when his wife caught him having an affair, while in Thailand his wife's act of revenge (known in Thailand as feeding the ducks!) is barely noteworthy - you have been warned!

The most valuable observation here is X in Pattaya's: "People in Thailand are as diverse in their behavior & thinking as are people of any country, so generalizing about those things is never going to be successful. It's also possible to be overwhelmed by the perceived differences between Thais and people in our home countries. On the other hand, beneath the surface, the similarities are even more amazing."

Nelson, it's interesting that you make that comment, because I've been thinking about the very same thing for quite a while.You don't say? Kinda makes me think you should re-word your response to my comments.

That's the crux of the Yellow shirt people's argument that Isaan people should not be trusted with true democratic voting. You pay off the village elder and he gets the whole village to vote for his man.

TE,

I disagree with you that Isaan people will simply vote as the "village heads" tell them. This may well have been true twenty years ago when, for example, my partner's village had no mains electricity and consequently no TV, telephones, internet, etc, but it is not true today. Hitherto all sides had bought off the poor with a bag of rice or a plastic bucket, but the TRT / PPP put an end to this by giving them things of rather more significance such as medical cover, increasing the school leaving age from 12 to 15, making interest free student loans available for those staying in education, making small business loans available, etc - all things the "Yellow shirt people" had regularly promised but never delivered.

The "Yellow shirt people" do not want to disenfranchise the rural poor because they can be bought, but because they can no longer buy them. They are drawing a false parallel between education and intelligence: further education and paper qualifications do not make a stupid person more intelligent any more than a lack of education makes an intelligent person more stupid, or a gullible educated person any less susceptible to manipulation than a gullible uneducated one. The constitution already discriminates against those without an education (or the means to buy one) by preventing them, for example, from standing for Parliament - to disenfranchise anyone on the grounds of a lack of education alone, as the Democrats / PAD plan, would be a basic violation of human rights.

Simply because someone has been fortunate enough, by an accident of birth, to have been educated at Eton or Harrow and gone on to Oxford or Cambridge does not make them any more able to choose what or who is right or wrong than someone whose education has been limited to 6 years in a local village school.

Do you seriously think that Prince William would have got to St Andrews and then Sandhurst, and his less intellectually gifted brother direct to Sandhurst, if they had not been educated at Eton and had been named Smith instead of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha-Oldenburg-Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg? Or their even less cerebral father would have been admitted to Trinity College, Cambridge, with two A levels at B and C grade, which would have barely got anyone else into a polytechnic? Or that those who have not had such an education should be disenfranchised, as the "Democrats" in Thailand plan?
.
I concede both that a good education can get the best out of a good brain and that you may have seen forms being filled out communally in your BF's home, but that does not necessarily mean it was corrupt - if this was a form of census, for example, or any number of likely possibilities, there could be very good reasons for their putting down the same answers. Condemning it out of hand, as well as those who have not been fortunate enough to have access to the education that some of us take for granted is both irresponsible and unfair.


(my apologies for straying so obviously off the original topic, but as usual it seems to be ever-changing!)

[TrongpaiExpat]

That's the crux of the Yellow shirt people's argument that Isaan people should not be trusted with true democratic voting. You pay off the village elder and he gets the whole village to vote for his man.

TE,

I disagree with you that Isaan people will simply vote as the "village heads" tell them.

Well written and an excellent argument but your so quick to "disagree" with me you ignore that I said it was the position of the Yellow Shirt People or PAD.

The survey was about government services and I do realize that generalizations can not be made from a single isolated observation. I just found it interesting.

[Dodger]

Gone Fishing States:


You and Ajarntrade both seem confused about the difference between love and lust


Please enlighten us Master.

Do you seriously think that Prince William would have got to St Andrews and then Sandhurst, and his less intellectually gifted brother direct to Sandhurst, if they had not been educated at Eton

Yes. I do. The rest of your sentence contains the true admission criteria, the dalliance at Eton is completely irrelevant. Constitutional Monarchy maybe, but still a Monarchy and accommodations can, and should in my opinion, always be made.

Dodger,

If you need to ask at this stage it is probably far too late to find out! In your case the two (lust and love) seem to be interchangeable terms, while in Ajarntrade's he should know the difference but does not appear to. The following links may help:

http://www.links2love.com/is_it_love_2.htm

http://www.mcmanweb.com/love_lust.html

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_ ... dvice.html (http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_100/110_dating_advice.html)

The latter contains a couple of good one-liners which highlight the differences far better than I could:

Love and lust are inextricably intertwined. Lust is ground zero for hormones тАж.
Men fight wars over lust, but they make homes and families for love.

Lust is especially dangerous because it causes a man to think with his crotch and throw all reason and logic to the wind. When a man's in lust he doesn't care if he and his partner have anything in common.


TE,

maybe I misunderstood your position - I had assumed that as you had said a previous post was "excellent analysis and observation", and as it seemed to be your BF's position also, that you agreed with them. Far from rushing to disagree with you, I actually agree with a fair amount of what you say, and sometimes I even say so!

555,

I agree with you that their prime reason for the Princes being able to move on to Sandhurst and St Andrews was their being who they were, however I disagree that the "dalliance at Eton was irrelevant". Even with it Prince Harry still could not get accepted by a top university, while without it and with a "normal" education Prince William would have been very unlikely to have achieved even a barely acceptable academic standard. Basic schooling is still relevant - between a quarter and a third of those attending Eton or Harrow go on to Oxford or Cambridge, and this proportion would probably be even higher if some of the remainder did not go to RAC Cirencester or RMA Sandhurst instead. Those attending Eton or Harrow undoubtedly achieve substantially higher grades than the average, but I can assure you from personal experience that does not mean they are all substantially more intelligent!

A good read Dodger, I will add my little bit.

As you spend more and more time in the villages you will see things you dont normally see as they get used to you being around.

The all mucking in together at harvest time and planting time is not always a friendship thing or good neighbourlieness. They normally pay everybody in cash or in kind for weight picked or hours worked. ( of course there may be exceptions). I have seen people work all day long picking chillis and at the weigh in it was heartbreaking to see them force a smile when they got their 110 baht.

The village elder thing is also on the way out...... now it seems to be who has the most money has the most say/clout. For example my ex 22 yr old Sisaket BF would have to sort out most problems as he owned most land. This included chasing errant husbands back to their wives with a very stern lecture, dishing out wages, chairing some meetings.

The most respected people in the villages seem to be teachers. They always get invited for dinner and we always go to them when we arrive.

Women are very much second class citizens except for mom who seems to get the last say on most things.

Longest i stayed in a village was for 28 days and i loved apart from the overwhelming heat the first 2 days loved every second of it.

I guess my point is that the apex of the Royal Family in a constitutional, rather than an actual, monarchy are condemned at birth to a symbolic career. It doesn't really matter if Charles and his lads make the crassest of gaffes, nobody is going to take them too seriously. It's jolly useful if they pass through the education system accompanied by their generation as they might get some insight into how some others live. Much better than the previous system of private tutors, though Eton was probably a less wise choice than Gordonstoun when academic elan doesn't really count.

I'd not imagined Eton was so "county" that so many opt for the RAC. I'd thought Tesco had impoverished the landed gentry.

[Dodger]

Oggleman Stated:


I have seen people work all day long picking chillis and at the weigh in it was heartbreaking to see them force a smile when they got their 110 baht.

I know exactly what you mean, but the "weigh in" doesn't ocurr until after the sorting process which has some additional value for ther pickers.

After the chilies are harvested, they are placed in 50 lb. sacks and haulded into the village where typically the women perform the task of sorting. Sorting involves picking out the soft chilies, where insects have eaten the inner meat of the chili, from the good harvest, as the soft ones are not acceptable for market. I've sat and watched this sorting process many times and the result is approximately 80% of the harvest is accepted, and then placed in smaller 20 lb. plastic sacks for market, and 20% is rejected for insect infestation. The sorters then get to keep the rejected harvest as a bonus to the weigh in value. The rejects (soft) chilies are then sun-dried and ground into chili power which are either sold a the market for a higher profit margin than the actual chili's, and/or used for home consumption.

The wages they earn are sad, but they usually have money coming in from multiple tasks, not only the task of picking a single crop.

Thanks for your insight.

It doesn't really matter if Charles and his lads make the crassest of gaffes, nobody is going to take them too seriously. It's jolly useful if they pass through the education system accompanied by their generation as they might get some insight into how some others live. What's an "Upper Second" in Geography which is what I read Prince William achieved. Geography!!!! Wasn't he doing coloring in before that? I guess geography just takes that skill to another level. Is there a problem in geography about the minimum number of colors you need for a map of adjoining countries?

What's an "Upper Second" in Geography which is what I read Prince William achieved.

An "upper second" is a 2.1. British honours undergraduate degrees are classified as First, Second or Third. A "pass" degree may be awarded without honours and some universities select into the honours class as an extra year. The Second Class is subdivided as 2.1 and 2.2. Classifications are decided by an Exam Board who are normally guided by a weighted average, similar to a grade point average, but in some schemes ignoring early "foundation" subjects and doubling later subjects and dissertations. First Class implies a weighted average of about 70 - 75%, a 2.1 normally implies a weighted average of better than 60/65% depending on the scheme. There are often modifying conditions such as the award being close to the grade achieved in the dissertation. The decision process of the Exam Board is not transparent but supplemented by at least two external examiners from other universities whose role is to assure the maintenance of common standards though it is doubtful whether Glasgow Caledonian has the same prestige as St.Andrews.

Geography is a much more scientific subject than it perhaps used to be. Most recently it has seen yet another transformation with GPS information adding an extra dimension to its body of knowledge.

[ironbark-old]

Thanks Dodger for your thoughtful posting. I cannot claim the same breadth of experience you have (I mean that in a nice way ;-) ).

I agree that there is very much an unwritten rule of dont ask dont tell for boys in the industry. Many tell me that their parents dont officially know about their work. But parents know their children. I can't believe they dont know.

I don't agree that boys and girls activities in the big city are treated in the same way back in the village.

I think there is very much a dual standard for Thais. The girls are still required to be virtuous and preserve the family honour with appropriate behaviour. Whereas the boys are given much more license and expect'ted to lose their virginity at an early age. Therefore there would be a much greater lose of face for a girl to work in the sex industry than a boy.

I also found your comments re top vs bottom interesting. I hadn't thought about it much myself. While I had noticed the younger ones were more often receptive to try to bottom they were also more reluctant to take me, with protests of "too big". (My current regular boy is an exception, he's a total bottom and loves it)

I very much endorse your comments that many of the boys in the sex industry are str8 and do not at all seem to be threatened or find their sexuality compromised by their work. Many tell me they also have a girlfriend as well.

Probably the one dissappointment I do have is their reluctance to kiss on the lips. I like to warm up a bit first but most of the boys I have come across turn their face away if I try to kiss them, especially the str8 ones. That seems to be the one rule most are reluctant to break.

I guess my point is that the apex of the Royal Family in a constitutional, rather than an actual, monarchy are condemned at birth to a symbolic career. It doesn't really matter if Charles and his lads make the crassest of gaffes, nobody is going to take them too seriously.

I'd not imagined Eton was so "county" that so many opt for the RAC. I'd thought Tesco had impoverished the landed gentry.

Well, 555, I guess I generally agree with you! The problem, to me, is that some "accomodations" they are given can be dangerous in the modern world: Charles, for example, genuinely believes that he is intelligent and, as a result of his Cambridge education, entitled to be taken seriously - and some do! William has just transferred from the Army to the RAF in order to play at being a Search and Rescue pilot - while this may make him feel as if he is doing something useful, any rescue he may be deployed on would put others at risk, as his personal safety would be the priority, rather than that of the aircrew and the person being rescued. Harry - well, the only good thing you can say about Harry is that he is not going to be given any operational command.

I, too, am in favour of a constitutional monarchy - anything, after all, is better (and cheaper) than a President.

Harrow is far more "county" than Eton, which is unpleasantly urban and nouveau.