Wesley - St. Augustine

George, Wes,

many thanks,

Damnant quod non intellegunt (They condemn what they do not understand )

Clearly I am no writer, but I know a good heart when I see one and although at times your Latin and Greek made me think you were a bit of a nut, You cleared all that up a few weeks ago for me, I have looked at your post differently ever since. For a long time I thought you were trying to prove how intelligent you are to be able to recite such wonderful text of such a forgotten and lost language. It was endearing to find out why.

Wes

Wes,

As the act of remembrance is something which has deep personal meaning for me, rather than continue to divert it I have taken the liberty of copying your post here.

Not sure what particular post made me "endearing" - I'm flattered, as it is something I have never been called before here! I am aware that my writing style may sometimes give the impression that I am trying to prove something, but it is no more than something I learnt at school and I am too old to change now - sorry!

Maybe you are referring to an apology I made to Fattman, where I said that Quid quid latine dictum sit, altum videtur (Anything said in Latin sounds profound) ?

In return for your kind wishes, allow me to give you a quote from St Augustine which may be some consolation every time anyone (someone!) says something stupid about those who have faith (whatever that faith may be):

Est autem fides credere quod nondum vides; cuius fidei merces est videre quod credis - Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe

If you are not already aware of Saint Augustine, I think you may find his particular story and his teachings of some interest, as he is revered equally by the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox churches. It may sound heavy going, but as he is the originator of the prayer "Da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo" (Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet) (Conf. 8.7.17), I think he deserves a look for that alone!

As well as a theologian he was also an eminent teacher, developing teaching methods which are still used today, and he differentiated between different types of students. He considered the worst type of student to be the one who considered himself well taught but who actually understood little; one who, as he put it, did not know the difference between "having words and having understanding" - maybe we are both thinking of the same particular case in point!

When he wrote The Literal Interpretation of Genesis he took the somewhat radical and very forward thinking view at the time that the Bible, and particularly Genesis and the Creation, was not to be taken literally and although he believed that God created the world he considered that if science and consequently logic contradicted certain aspects of this then that should be respected and accepted.

I was actually reminded of Saint Augustine in connection with Remembrance Day as he is regarded as the father of the concept of the "Just War" (jus ad bellum, the right to go to war, and jus in bello, right conduct within war), taking it far further than Cicero had done four hundred years before.

Well worth studying, if you are into that sort of thing (as I was raised by a Jesuit, rather than as a Jesuit, it was optional light reading!).

If not, and you are still with us, I give you a choice of two apt replies the next time you are criticized for your beliefs:

Nemo surdior est quam is qui non audiet - No man is more deaf than he who will not hear

Absconde obesito illegitimo - you can probably work that one out for yourself!

On a different note, your own writing about your visit here actually reminded me of Caesar's: Veni, Vidi, Pedicavi !!

[Bob]

Ustjay lainpay oofygay.

St. Augustine can now rest in peace, his life/writings finally being discussed on an internet message board named Sawatdee Gay Thailand. I'm impressed. Rulytay!

[Khor tose]

Ustjay lainpay oofygay.

St. Augustine can now rest in peace, his life/writings finally being discussed on an internet message board named Sawatdee Gay Thailand. I'm impressed. Rulytay!

GF, Bob definitely has a point here. St. Augistine would roll over in his grave to have his thoughts discussed on this message board. His main sin was having a child with a women he was not married to. I am no fan of Augustine. I do not believe in predestination, I do not agree with his views on marriage, and I strongly disagree with him on the role of the state and religion His thoughts may be beautiful to you, but the church took his writting all to strongly to heart and he is probably shares some responsiblity for the long period of ignorance we call the "Dark Ages." As to the quote above about faith. It is not okay to engage in rationalization. It is a common thing for all of us to do, but it is not a good thing.

PS if you are going to answer this do so in one paragraph. I do not need quotes from his writtings to understand a point. What I am asking you to do is to assume the person you are talking to is as well read, or as least as smart as you are.

[Khor tose]

Ustjay lainpay oofygay.

St. Augustine can now rest in peace, his life/writings finally being discussed on an internet message board named Sawatdee Gay Thailand. I'm impressed. Rulytay!

GF, Bob definitely has a point here. St. Augistine would roll over in his grave to have his thoughts discussed on this message board. His main sin was having a child with a women he was not married to. I am no fan of Augustine. I do not believe in predestination, I do not agree with his views on marriage, and I strongly disagree with him on the role of the state and religion His thoughts may be beautiful to you, but the church took his writting all to strongly to heart and he is probably shares some responsiblity for the long period of ignorance we call the "Dark Ages." As to the quote above about faith. It is not okay to engage in rationalization. It is a common thing for all of us to do, but it is not a good thing.

PS if you are going to answer this do so in one paragraph. I do not need quotes from his writtings to understand a point. What I am asking you to do is to assume the person you are talking to is as well read, or as least as smart as you are.

[Bob]

Nah, no point at all....other than a little humorous jab at the topic. I'm really waiting for the Kierkegaard chapter....

[Wesley]

Augustine, Aquinas, Sir Thomas, that is and many more of whom are considered to be the great thinkers or that era, long lost and now mostly forgotten thoughts of the great languages of the world and of that era. Some became Icons to their own dismay at the thought of such reverence. Others going on to the reformation and Martin Luther, All had their contribution to what is now much a lost religion, though still alive in its present form its nothing similar to that which was in the beginning and a frail likeness of the same. As it progresses and as man continues to learn of himself , so the more they all will be forgotten and passed on into history forgotten and left behind and only thought of by those who still carry the old language and few there be any more.

No doubt as some would say, would turn circles in their grave if they knew they were under discussion on a gay forum. Nevertheless, the old language and the Slavic Byzantine are but a shallow forgery of the beginning of the great religion now destined to be lost in time. So, now we look to another religion, science. Certainly we must give Bob his "leap of faith".

It is not wrong to believe, it is wrong to believe you are the only one.

Wes

It is not wrong to believe, it is wrong to believe you are the only one.Are you not the only one God has decided should be gay, Wes?

[Wesley]

I would imagine, I like you, can decide personal stuff like that for myself at my age, without any help from the sound stage.

However, I am positive there are others out there, other than me, who recognize there is a god and have reconciled their own belief system to suite their particular world view. I guess it up to you Joe. As they say here in the Philippines.

I would think I would allow you to believe there is no God as long as that does not impede my right to believe there is. That said, I couldnтАЩt speak for others like Homi who try to force their particular belief system on someone by trying to insult them and their intelligence until they give in. Nor, would I assume everything you say is what you really believe either. A lot of it just so much smoke and little substance on here , I rarely see anyone who really for sure says what they believe either out of fear of ridicule in this particular situation or by peer pressure as in homiturds situation. I was brought up to believe I could believe anything I like as long as it does not hurt other individuals and their right to their own belief.
However, there are many ways to try to impede a personтАЩs free will, such as your remarks and Homiturds and I absolutely could care less as long as I am able to continue to do as I wish without physical harm in any way. So much for all the smoke and mirrors, you see here on the board with different names and the same poster. As long as you as well as Homi are around, I would expect to hear and read such nonsense as that statement. Nevertheless, in the end I am not sure who you are hurting.

However, believe as you wish. I have never said God made me as I am without a clause and explanation, it only means I have accepted who I am and love me like I am and believe that God as well loves me just like I am. As well, I have no reason to apologize for my sexuality to God; neither do I seek your approval of such a system of belief. I simply believe. It is what people call free will. I suppose you have heard of that.

Wesley

[Bob]

Certainly we must give Bob his "leap of faith".
Wes

With all due respect, Wes, please keep it as it isn't welcomed here. Been there, done that. As you noted, it isn't "wrong" to believe anything, at least from the perspective that one has the right to believe anything they want to believe. The three-year-old, putting his hands over his eyes, believes he is invisible to others and that's okay (but, of course, it doesn't make it true - at least for others). Having studied various religions and thought - apparently trying to understand the "why" during my youth - ultimately led me to my own personal conclusion that none of that matters at all to me.

For example, why am I gay? Hell if I know and it's a waste of my time (at least in my eyes) to spend time wondering. I am and I deal with it. Is there a god or the other fellows St. Augustine pondered and wrote about? Hell if I know and I'm not going to burst brain cells pondering the topic. Is there an afterlife? Same answer. Having been deeply raised a catholic, I just don't waste my time pondering all of that anymore as I personally concluded that most or all of it just worked to defeat one's wonderment and enjoyment of the now. And I fully acknowledge that should I find after I take a dirt nap that I'm standing before some judgment tribunal asking me why I didn't buy into whatever philosophy "they" are/were pushing, I suppose I'll say "whoops!" And I'll probably follow that with: "You gotta be shitting me?!?"

Some would suggest that, for them, going through life without a grand philosopy of the "why" makes going through life rather pointless and sad. Not me, I find it liberating. No sense in my view of trying to proseltyze anything to me as I'm not buying it let alone the vacuum the door-to-door salesman peddles in my neighborhood. But I'm not at all unhappy if anybody else wants to buy it as, hey, it's a free world. I only get intellectually get involved and irritated when a given philosphy or ideology causes what I perceive to be harm to others but that doesn't happen very often. Other than that, I'm more interested in just getting through today.

[Wesley]

I mentioned you personally only because you mentioned Kierkegaard who is famous for his quote the тАЬleap of faith.тАЭ Honestly, Smiles mentioned I was a prelate, that raised everyoneтАЩs eyebrows and tongues began to wag, snide remarks from Homiturd keep coming even when I am silent on the issue. I like you, really do not give a ratтАЩs ass what you believe or do not believe. I really donтАЩt care what you believe about my life style or if there is a God, I have often played the part of the Devils advocate and now I play the role of the saint. Neither of which are me. In many ways, I am every bit as bitter as you are in regards to the church. However , ignorance at times can be bliss but, for me when the old languages are used and people I have spent much time reading are mentioned I take up the pen in response. However, if you put me in a club with a drink and a boy beside me you will likely never hear me mention religion at all especially since I believe religion is totally everything God hates, and as I mentioned before a Jewish writer of some great fame mentioned in some obscure writing that the world hates God because of our religion, not because they are Jews or Christians or Muslims but because most beliefs have been hijacked by men seeking to use other men and control other men for one reason or another usually, not for God but for their own selfish desires. Thus, religion is my enemy. I hate revile and get disgusted with region and believe it is the center of most of menтАЩs woes on this planet.

Therefore, my Good friend, I accept what you say as the truth and respect what you believe or, in this case, what you do not believe. If I see you tomorrow, you will never hear me say a word about the issueтАЩs talked about here and if Homiturd and others would leave it, alone I would likely never say another word about it.

However if there is some comment directed to me personally I feel obligated to respond unless it was Homiturd. I really could care less what he thinks.

So actually, we are in much more agreement than you think. I do presume to talk about things I am familiar with Latin, Greek and the old Slavonic, all now mostly forgotten are memories from a life I no longer live or believe in. true occasionally I get a bit mournful in some ways when I realize such things are going to be lost forever even if they are wrong, many died defending their faith, for that I respect and honor them although, I may not personally believe as they do. Nevertheless, a man of conviction and willingness to stand up in the midst of opposition and say his mind without reservation gets my respect. One reason I like George. What you see with him right or wrong is what you get. I see so many here who with many faces and names spout out stuff they have never lived or believed. I for one live what I belive and it is not any Christian doctrine I believe in, I do believe in love for my fellow man, that good begets good and often what we sow we reap. Those are universal laws written on my heart not in a dusty book on shelf or a lost and forgotten language now forever lost.

Therefore, who I am simply is; Love God, if you believe in him, love your neighbor as yourself and you have simply fulfilled all the law and the prophets of which there have been many. However, Love, yes love is really, what it is all about. My love and respect for you as a person outweighs my own personal comfort at times. I idolize any man who would lay down his life for another, particularly on the battlefield fighting often for their country with no knowledge of what really is the reason he is there. However, duty honor and trust that the reason he may die is for a good cause is enough for me to honor him.

You can take anything to the extreme that as well should be taken in moderation, as should most politics and religion.

So in conclusion, I think we agree more than we disagree, and although I may play the roll I may not staunchly believe in everything any of the great philosophers said. All of them have parts that are good and a lot that needs to be skipped over in haste. Although I understand them, does not mean I agree with them in all aspects. Just that I am familiar with the creeds and language of that age. Just because I understand and am familiar with it, does not mean I enlist myself to their way of thought.

All the best bob.

Wesley

As you noted, it isn't "wrong" to believe anything, at least from the perspective that one has the right to believe anything they want to believeGood heavens, Bob - we agree on something

There's a philosophical principle known as Occam's Razor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor ) that can be equally expressed colloquially as "If the explanation is a choice between a conspiracy and a cock-up, the more likely explanation is a cock-up". Given Americans' boundless love for conspiracy theories, perhaps that explains why they're still besotted with the idea of "God" while unable to explain why bad things happen ("God moves in mysterious ways"). I find the whole proposition intellectually dishonest, which is why I continue to ridicule Wesley. The simplest (and therefore the best) explanation is that "God" does not exist. Sadly someone like Khor tose believes there is no harm in letting people retain their mistaken beliefs - which is at best patronising. Wesley's belief seems to be "God made me gay - or at least allowed me to be born gay - so therefore must approve of everything I do in expressing my sexuality". As you say, that's the mentality of the three-year-old who covers his eyes and believes people can't see him

[Bob]

Egads, if I have actually strayed towards a subject that causes the Colonel to support me, I take back everything I said! :cheers: I also remain perplexed (saddened?) that he hasn't put me on ignore (well, not yet anyway).

Seriously, I'm cool with that, Wes. And, rather than continue the discussion on the board, I've sent you a PM as I won't delve further into the subject here. Almost like discussing the merits of holy water at the prostitutes convention....hehe.

I also remain perplexed (saddened?) that he hasn't put me on ignore (well, not yet anyway)As Jesus is reported to have said "Suffer the little children to come to me" - and as you've told us Bob you've never claimed to have grown up. Equally I need to know what the looney right-wing fringe are saying from time to time and your views on paedophilia, prisons and drug addicts are fairly representative of that fringe (I could take Chao Na off {Ignore}, I guess, and achieve the same result, but I think I'll leave things as they are)

[Wesley]

I also remain perplexed (saddened?) that he hasn't put me on ignore (well, not yet anyway)As Jesus is reported to have said "Suffer the little children to come to me" - and as you've told us Bob you've never claimed to have grown up. Equally I need to know what the looney right-wing fringe are saying from time to time and your views on paedophilia, prisons and drug addicts are fairly representative of that fringe (I could take Chao Na off {Ignore}, I guess, and achieve the same result, but I think I'll leave things as they are)

Please leave things like they are , for some one on your report card of ignore, I manage a lot of your attention. What I believe on the subjects mentioned are as volitile as this forum is at times, both seeming to agree and disagree out of the same mouths of babes, nevertheless, you enthrall me with your boundless intellectual prowess, I guess I must conceed that you are at least partially right. I have never grown up.

Wes

[Wesley]

Hi Bob, I sent you a reply to your persoanl message, however it remains in my out box and does not show up as sent item so I am not sure if you got it or if the sytem has a glitch or if in some way if you never read the message it shows up as still in the out box not in sent items. I have 5 items in my outbox one to Kevin quill 3 to you until I figured out ther was a problem. My sent items was 104% full so that may have been the problem I am not sure. Any way if you did not get my message let me know and I will send it again or send it to your email since it contains some information most people don't know , I thought you might want to make sure you got it.

Wesley

[elephantspike]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc_LKEO3bwc

[Khor tose]

As you noted, it isn't "wrong" to believe anything, at least from the perspective that one has the right to believe anything they want to believeGood heavens, Bob - we agree on something

There's a philosophical principle known as Occam's Razor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor ) that can be equally expressed colloquially as "If the explanation is a choice between a conspiracy and a cock-up, the more likely explanation is a cock-up". Given Americans' boundless love for conspiracy theories, perhaps that explains why they're still besotted with the idea of "God" while unable to explain why bad things happen ("God moves in mysterious ways"). I find the whole proposition intellectually dishonest, which is why I continue to ridicule Wesley. The simplest (and therefore the best) explanation is that "God" does not exist. Sadly someone like Khor tose believes there is no harm in letting people retain their mistaken beliefs - which is at best patronising. Wesley's belief seems to be "God made me gay - or at least allowed me to be born gay - so therefore must approve of everything I do in expressing my sexuality". As you say, that's the mentality of the three-year-old who covers his eyes and believes people can't see him

I am not at all patronising. Not only do I believe you have the freedom to believe differently then I do, but I clearly recognize the strength that comes from having a strong belief system to rely on. When times are darkest and the whole world seems to be against you, the believers still have a source of strength to turn to, where I do not. Does this make me weaker or stronger? The joke is that most good Christians actually feel sorry for us agnostics. So I am hardly patronizing them, and I just may be envying them their ability to seek this strength. It really surprises me that you do not see this Homi. It shows a remarkable lack of human sensitivity. Ohhh, I forgot, your Homi---in for the laughs.

Well, well, so many views and replies from what was intended largely as a simple 'thank you' to Wesley, whose sentiments here (as well as Bob's, and most of Khor tose's) I agree with.

Khor tose,

I don't know if I am up to such a leap of faith just yet.

Rather than find St Augustine's writings "beautiful", I actually find them interesting and worth studying - no more. I, also, do not agree with a lot of his views, particularly on religious beliefs (as a Theravadan Buddhist and not a Christian that would be difficult) and on others which were "of their time", but I do agree with many others, particularly concerning "Just War".

[Bob]

Got your message, Wes (actually, three friggin' times! You only need to push the button once, goofball....). Thanks.

Also, I'm eventually learning that I simply can't bait the Colonel to put me on ignore. Damn. He does love me (although hopefully not enough to make me either the sitter or the sitee)!

Finally, for all of you that are searching for the one true answer, it's the number 7. Honest! Don't believe me? Well, when your time for a dirt nap comes, either (1) the keeper of the gate will come up to you and say: "Guess what, Bob was right, the answer is 7!, or (2) the keeper will simply pull down your drawers, bend you over the pearly gates, and proceed to pump you full of the right answer seven times. Either way, you're fucked in the end so to speak.

Also, I'm eventually learning that I simply can't bait the Colonel to put me on ignore. Damn.Learn from Wesley's experience. Even though he's on {Ignore} his follies are constantly in my thoughts - as, for that matter, are Chao Na's. Getting on to my {Ignore} list can mean I mention you more, not less

[Bob]

Learn from Wesley's experience. Even though he's on {Ignore} his follies are constantly in my thoughts - as, for that matter, are Chao Na's. Getting on to my {Ignore} list can mean I mention you more, not less

I could care less how much you do or don't mention me. As you know, I don't often rise to the bait you toss out.
While I can understand having 1 or 2 people on ignore (I've had 2 on my list but they seem to no longer be with us mortals), your longer list is just silly. For a guy who here just to yank chains, you're remarkably over-sensitive. But I guess that's why you love me....

...you're remarkably over-sensitive. But I guess that's why you love me....Over-sensitive - yes, it's a cross I bear

[Wesley]

I was having a problems with the messegign system it would not shpow your message as sent in sent items so I would work on it, then send it again, I finally gave up and decidedd if you did not get it I would sent it by emal

[Wesley]

Well, well, so many views and replies from what was intended largely as a simple 'thank you' to Wesley, whose sentiments here (as well as Bob's, and most of Khor tose's) I agree with. Khor tose, I don't┬а know if I am up to such a leap of faith just yet.Rather than find St Augustine's writings "beautiful", I actually find them interesting and worth studying - no more. I, also, do not agree with a lot of his views, particularly on religious beliefs (as a Theravadan Buddhist and not a Christian that would be difficult) and on others which were "of their time", but I do agree with many others, particularly concerning "Just War".I do very┬а much appreciate┬а your┬а toast to Augustine, I was┬а relatively sure it would end up wehre it has, and could not be more happy to express the theology and philosopy of that┬а day. However, undertanding it and agreeing with them are┬а two different things altogether. I think like any books even Ann Rices latest Gay Vampire book on Armand has┬а some merit. It does not mean I believe in Vampires however.All the bst┬а my┬а friend!Wes