Remembrance

[gearguy]

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
тАФ Lt.-Col. John McCrae

[Khor tose]

From a vet, not yet in the ground, and fin memoriy of those I knew who are, Thank You.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

From a vet, not yet in the ground, and fin memoriy of those I knew who are, Thank You.

from which war ?

you know it only occured to me a few years ago about the numbers of gay men who obviously were in all armies in WW1/2 Vietnam etc. An old "digger" in Australia from WW2 tried to get a war pension for his partner who had been with him for 40 years , so that when he died he could be looked after but the courts turned him down. Disgraceful.

PS..I've just finished reading a fascinating book about the true life murder in Sydney of a well known gay character who had inherited the gay empire of his French lover..it included a popular steam baths in the centre of the city. The writer mentioned in passing that on "Anzac Day"..when all the old diggers from WW1 and WW2 proudly march with their medals and such..around 6pm there would be a clatter of walking sticks and frames as dozens of them came up the steps to the baths !!

[Marsilius]

...Take up our quarrel with the foe...

An understandable sentiment if penned in the midst of war, perhaps, but rather jarring for 90 years later.

...Take up our quarrel with the foe...An understandable sentiment if penned in the midst of war, perhaps, but rather jarring for 90 years later.I don't have any quarrel with that line. The one I think, in the very long-term, is complete tosh is the one about breaking faith

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

...Take up our quarrel with the foe...

An understandable sentiment if penned in the midst of war, perhaps, but rather jarring for 90 years later.

of course you are correct. Who exactly was the foe ?. Old men sending young men off to war !

"...Take up our quarrel with the foe..."An understandable sentiment if penned in the midst of war, perhaps, but rather jarring for 90 years later.I don't have any quarrel with that line. The one I think, in the very long-term, is complete tosh is the one about breaking faith

Why?

I have a quarrel with both of you, as you both appear to have completely misunderstood the poem, the circumstances in which it was written, and what John McCrae meant by taking up the quarrel and breaking the faith.

Lt Colonel McCrae was not a jingoist, but a doctor and the son of a military doctor. He had taken part in the Second Boer War as an officer in the Canadian Field Artillery, from 1899 - 1904, and when he re-enlisted it was as a surgeon in the same unit. He wrote the poem in 1915, the day after he had officiated at the funeral of a friend and former student, Lieutenant Alexis Helmer, who had been killed by a shell burst.

He firmly believed that without reinforcements, sufficient manpower and the right equipment the war would be lost and additional lives lost on both sides - a sentiment many military professionals consider very true in today's major wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Whether you agree with these wars or not (and personally I support the former but condemn the latter), his sentiment still appears to be only too valid "90 years later".

The "faith" he referred to, as he made very clear in later poems and in letters and reported conversations, did not mean simply keeping the faith by ensuring that those who died did not do so in vain (as the expression goes), but meant that ultimately they were fighting to end all wars and make a repetition of such waste unnecessary. He was known to treat all casualties (Canadian, British, Indian, French, and German) equally, to the best of his ability, and he made his hope that "the guns" would "fall silent тАж some day, anon" very clear in another poem he wrote in 1918, shortly before he died of pneumonia:

The Anxious Dead

O guns, fall silent till the dead men hear
Above their heads the legions pressing on:
(These fought their fight in time of bitter fear,
And died not knowing how the day had gone.)
O flashing muzzles, pause, and let them see
The coming dawn that streaks the sky afar;
Then let your mighty chorus witness be
To them, and Caesar, that we still make war.
Tell them, O guns, that we have heard their call,
That we have sworn, and will not turn aside,
That we will onward till we win or fall,
That we will keep the faith for which they died.
Bid them be patient, and some day, anon,
They shall feel earth enwrapt in silence deep;
Shall greet, in wonderment, the quiet dawn,
And in content may turn them to their sleep.

Laurence Binyon, the author of the poem For the Fallen, who worked for the Red Cross on the Western Front in an ambulance unit, wrote the poem specifically about the British war dead, but when the fourth verse is read as the Ode to Remembrance at British and Commonwealth services it is read to commemorate all dead in all wars:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

An old "digger" in Australia from WW2 tried to get a war pension for his partner who had been with him for 40 years , so that when he died he could be looked after but the courts turned him down. Disgraceful.

Disgraceful, possibly, but not quite as reported. The "digger" had actually been a member of a mobile cinema unit in WWII who had met his Japanese partner in 1984 in a Tokyo bar. Following the "digger"'s death from heart disease, his partner applied for a war widow's pension which, initially, he was granted as the Australian Defence Department thought he was a woman; when he informed them he was not, the pension was withdrawn - which, I agree, is disgraceful.

The problem is that while same-sex partnerships are recognised in The Australian Defence Force (ADF) as interdependent relationships, giving serving gays the same entitlements and benefits as heterosexual couples, this does not extend to Veterans Affairs.

There are moves to give Veterans the same entitlements as their British counterparts, where gays in the military with a Civil Partner are entitled to identical allowances, etc, as married personnel, but apparently these are unlikely to be approved until Australia recognizes some form of same-sex civil union. In the UK military this includes full pension rights for Civil Partners of those who are retired who served when homosexuality was illegal and who have registered a Civil Partnership after retiring (as in the Australian case in point).

[Marsilius]

Any objective reading of the poem, as presented to us here, makes it plain (with three specific references to "Flanders fields" and their poppies) that it refers to a specific war: World War I. Any such reading would also lead to the conclusion that the poet is encouraging more recruits to come and carry on the fight against "the foe" (meaning the Germans) and that he admonishes young men not in the trenches not to "break faith" with the fallen by failing to do their duty in their own turn.

As I originally said - an entirely understandable sentiment in the circumstances but how much better today to echo Binyon's more measured response.

Any objective reading of the poem. ... how much better today to echo Binyon's more measured response.

Marsilius,

as I originally said, you have misunderstood (and obviously still misunderstand) the sentiments and meaning of the poem as made clear by the author, rather than by your own reading of the poem - objective or otherwise. You have compounded your mistake by calling Binyon's a "more measured response" - it is such only if read out of context; the full poem is actually far more specific, referring to " ... a mother for her children, England mourns for her dead across the sea. ...They sleep beyond England's foam."

Personally I find it rather sad, if not bordering on insulting to "the fallen" on all sides in all wars who have been remembered for 90 years at this particular time, using this particular symbol, to describe any of the sentiments written about by John McCrae as either "rather jarring" or "complete tosh".

[Marsilius]

Bugger the author! Any literature should be judged on the direct effect that it makes as a stand-alone piece on its readers. There should be no need for any further explanation by the author.

[Bob]

Back to the original post (for Christ's sake, is any topic immune from an irrelevant cat fight here?), it's always good to remember and honor those who served and gave their all or other for their countries. We can scream bloody murder at some of the politicians who sent them on various ventures but the vets themselves only deserve our admiration and thanks.

Agreed, Bob.

The one thing I had no intention of doing was cheapening the respect and honour they deserve, particularly today, and if I have done so I regret it.

Back to the original post (for Christ's sake, is any topic immune from an irrelevant cat fight here?)

Much to my distaste Bob and no doubt the distaste of many others here, it would appear not.


Agreed, Bob.

The one thing I had no intention of doing was cheapening the respect and honour they deserve, particularly today, and if I have done so I regret it.

I am one member at the very least GF, although I am certain there are others, whose perception tells me that you are exactly whom you say you are. I also believe you to be someone that in my opinion, couldn't be further from being the troll that you are called by some here. I am sure that you would have realised long ago, that those guilty of calling you such, do so for the sole reason that they do not possess anywhere near the same intellect or knowledge as yourself, in which to be able to debate you. For the record, just in case anyone is wondering why I have said this, especially as GF is someone that is not known to me personally, I did so for no other reason, than I believe it is long overdue that someone did.

That same perception of mine mentioned above also tells me, that cheapening the respect and honour of those that fell in battle, would be the very last thing you would ever intend to do, on this, or any other day. Thank you for having the courtesy to apologise GF and I don't believe, that you could be any more sincere in doing so.


Cheers,



George.



Lest We Forget.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.

[Aunty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bqrRNowf1Q

[Wesley]

"...Take up our quarrel with the foe..."An understandable sentiment if penned in the midst of war, perhaps, but rather jarring for 90 years later.I don't have any quarrel with that line. The one I think, in the very long-term, is complete tosh is the one about breaking faith

Why?

I have a quarrel with both of you, as you both appear to have completely misunderstood the poem, the circumstances in which it was written, and what John McCrae meant by taking up the quarrel and breaking the faith.

Lt Colonel McCrae was not a jingoist, but a doctor and the son of a military doctor. He had taken part in the Second Boer War as an officer in the Canadian Field Artillery, from 1899 - 1904, and when he re-enlisted it was as a surgeon in the same unit. He wrote the poem in 1915, the day after he had officiated at the funeral of a friend and former student, Lieutenant Alexis Helmer, who had been killed by a shell burst.

He firmly believed that without reinforcements, sufficient manpower and the right equipment the war would be lost and additional lives lost on both sides - a sentiment many military professionals consider very true in today's major wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Whether you agree with these wars or not (and personally I support the former but condemn the latter), his sentiment still appears to be only too valid "90 years later".

The "faith" he referred to, as he made very clear in later poems and in letters and reported conversations, did not mean simply keeping the faith by ensuring that those who died did not do so in vain (as the expression goes), but meant that ultimately they were fighting to end all wars and make a repetition of such waste unnecessary. He was known to treat all casualties (Canadian, British, Indian, French, and German) equally, to the best of his ability, and he made his hope that "the guns" would "fall silent тАж some day, anon" very clear in another poem he wrote in 1918, shortly before he died of pneumonia:

The Anxious Dead

O guns, fall silent till the dead men hear
Above their heads the legions pressing on:
(These fought their fight in time of bitter fear,
And died not knowing how the day had gone.)
O flashing muzzles, pause, and let them see
The coming dawn that streaks the sky afar;
Then let your mighty chorus witness be
To them, and Caesar, that we still make war.
Tell them, O guns, that we have heard their call,
That we have sworn, and will not turn aside,
That we will onward till we win or fall,
That we will keep the faith for which they died.
Bid them be patient, and some day, anon,
They shall feel earth enwrapt in silence deep;
Shall greet, in wonderment, the quiet dawn,
And in content may turn them to their sleep.

Laurence Binyon, the author of the poem For the Fallen, who worked for the Red Cross on the Western Front in an ambulance unit, wrote the poem specifically about the British war dead, but when the fourth verse is read as the Ode to Remembrance at British and Commonwealth services it is read to commemorate all dead in all wars:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

Alltough not always Gone Fishing , but in this case I agree with your assesment and do so but, wish you

All the Best,

Wes

[Wesley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bqrRNowf1Q

damn, that was one sad song!

All the best,

Wesley

George, Wes,

many thanks,

Damnant quod non intellegunt (They condemn what they do not understand )

[francois]

Remembrance Day, aka Veterans Day in the US, is remembered in different ways by various countries. Throughout France the names of the dead from WWI will be read at villages and towns. In Britain the populace will observe two minutes of silence at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11 month. In the US there will be a Macy Day Sales.

[gearguy]

I was in Canada last week with an associate from work, Poppy Day in Canada. My work-mate, a young American in his thirties, was perplexed. He had never heard of Poppy Day and had no idea of the meaning of the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. Sigh! It's so easy to forget; Remembrance takes work and constant reminders.

So for the fallen:

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,
England mourns for her dead across the sea.
Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,
Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill: Death august and royal
Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres.
There is a music in the midst of desolation
And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncountered:
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables at home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,
Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,
To the innermost heart of their own land they are known
As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,
Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;
As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,
To the end, to the end they remain.

It's the fourth verse that always brings a lump to my throat. I remember always; my best friend Patrick; his beloved grandfather Dominic, was the oldest living WW1 vet in our town in Pennsylvania at the time of his death. He kept faith every year on the 11th day of November for all his friends that did not come back home. When Dominic was in his 90s and frail, Patrick helped him every Armistice Day (it was never Veteran's Day to Dominic) to get into his uniform and go to the cemetery to pay tribute. Now my friend Patrick is gone as well these last 15 years, a victim of a different war against illness and disease.

So every day, but especially on the 11th day of the 11th month,
I remember them.

He had never heard of Poppy DayHad he heard of "Poppy" Bush?

I was in a retirement seminar yesterday, arranged by my employer. Typical in-house training event - partial retiree passes on hetero-centric heuristics about how not to be an amateur at retiring. At 11AM the counsellor/trainer didn't skip a beat and nobody reminded him.

The "forgotten", forgot.

[Wesley]

George, Wes,

many thanks,

Damnant quod non intellegunt (They condemn what they do not understand )

Clearly I am no writer, but I know a good heart when I see one and although at times your Latin and Greek made me think you were a bit of a nut, You cleared all that up a few weeks ago for me, I have looked at your post differently ever since. For a long time I thought you were trying to prove how intelligent you are to be able to recite such wonderful text of such a forgotten and lost language. It was endearing to find out why.

Wes