could the end of the church be the beginnngof Christianity

[Wesley]

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/ ... dance.html (http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/david/2004/11/major-decline-in-church-attendance.html)

There are two post-modern prophets that foresaw this coming. They saw the end of Church-ianity as a good thing. They are S├Г┬╕ren Kierkegaard and Dietrick Bonhoeffer.

S├Г┬╕ren Kierkegaard wrote "Attack On Christendom" in which he celebrated Christendom's decline! He longed for the day when Christians would simply be "followers of Jesus." He felt that "being Christian" merely because one was born in a so-called Christian nation and was even baptized by the church was not good enough. In fact, he saw this as the end of Christianity. "When everybody is a Christian, nobody is a Christian." Such people are only "playing Christianity." Kierkegaard was no lover of Church-ianity. He was, however, a lover of Jesus. He believed that in order to be a follower of Jesus, one needs to take a leap of faith. (His idea of the Leap of Faith was picked up by two recent films: Vanilla Sky and Kate and Leopold)

Dietrick Bonhoeffer, was a true prophet of our day. Like most prophets he was killed for his faith. It was Adolph Hitler and his murderous Nazis who assassinated Bonhoeffer by hanging. Bonhoeffer saw the futility of the modern era and how irrelevant the modern church was. Bonhoeffer welcomed secularization because it was "a clearing of the decks for the God of the Bible." He prophesied of a time when a viable form of Christianity would emerge. "A religionless Christianity." Can you imagine that? A Christianity free of religion. Wow! He saw a time when lovers of Jesus would speak without "religious jargon" and would effectively speak "in a secular fashion about God."

This represents what I believe to be the basics of my faith, a time when people like me will abandon the church its liturgy and traditions and devoid of religious jargon, we enter a new age where the God of the universe can finally and openly speak to all. The church was and is a perversion of the real god of the universe

No

[Wesley]

your right , not that f....ing easy ,,,,,,,,,,,, after reading the lines on geroge and is use of the word, smiles has a thing about this, when I used it my first time on here Smiles wrote me to reminded me that it was the first time I had ever used the word. Obviously he keeps count of such shit.

Wes

Uhh...
What "churches" specifically are you refering to Wes? Catholic? Anglican? Baptist? Lutheran? Pentacostal? Born-Again-Jezuz-Freak-Mega-Churches? Eastern Orthodox?

All of them?

And should we also get rid of all the Prelates, priests, nuns, religious scholars, preachers....

I guess we could all go to the internet for spritual guidance and google/wiki Jesus.

Would "true Christianity" then flourish?

Interesting topic you raise...great for a bar discussion.
Reminds me of my college days.

[cottmann]

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/david/2004/11/major-decline-in-church-attendance.html

...... we enter a new age where the God of the universe can finally and openly speak to all. The church was and is a perversion of the real god of the universe[/b]

What proof is there that there is either (a) a God or god of the universe, or (b) that there is only one of him/her (or Him/Her)?

[Wesley]

Uhh...
What "churches" specifically are you refering to Wes? Catholic? Anglican? Baptist? Lutheran? Pentacostal? Born-Again-Jezuz-Freak-Mega-Churches? Eastern Orthodox?

All of them?

And should we also get rid of all the Prelates, priests, nuns, religious scholars, preachers....

I guess we could all go to the internet for spritual guidance and google/wiki Jesus.

Would "true Christianity" then flourish?

Interesting topic you raise...great for a bar discussion.
Reminds me of my college days.

I believe it is the end of the church as we know it, not right away of course but the beginning of secular church, one with out all the hang ups we bitch about. That means all churches will eventually go to the more secular approach to Christendom. I am already that way and everyone accepts the fact. The teachings of Bonhoffer is usually the main part of what I have to say.. So, no matter if they like me or not I will be busy for the rest of my life. I donтАЩt get upset when there are others who disagree with god, no god, transcendental god, or a black God, that is up to them. It really does not bother me if someone is like homi. He has his rights as well to believe in what ever he wants to believe it and if that is nothing then it fits his empty head. Two more weeks in Thailand and I would have been Buddhist anyway

All the best!

Wesley

[Wesley]

http://www.hollywoodjesus.com/comments/david/2004/11/major-decline-in-church-attendance.html

...... we enter a new age where the God of the universe can finally and openly speak to all. The church was and is a perversion of the real god of the universe[/b]

What proof is there that there is either (a) a God or god of the universe, or (b) that there is only one of him/her (or Him/Her)?

There is no proof, it was it was Kierkegaard who says you have to take the leap of faith to belive in anything, its perfectly okay if you don't belive in any thing at all.
Its a persoanal thing and you can certainly believe anything you like.
All the best,

Wesley

What proof is there that there is either (a) a God or god of the universe, or (b) that there is only one of him/her (or Him/Her)?Wesley's rich fantasy life is the proof - that and the fact that Wesley is gay so God must have chosen to make him that way, which means there must be a God. Are we going round in circles yet?

...I believe it is the end of the church as we know it, not right away of course but the beginning of secular church, one with out all the hang ups we bitch about. That means all churches will eventually go to the more secular approach to Christendom. ....


...Are we going round in circles yet?

Ok, I give up Wes. I'm not anywhere near drunk enough to have a fcuking clue what you're talking about. :pop:

[Wesley]

you would need to read the link all the way though for it to make any sense at all. However, it will suit me fine to leave it as it is. As to my rich fancy lifestyle. I simply enjoy life not let life enjoy me Homi.

WEs

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

What proof is there that there is either (a) a God or god of the universe, or (b) that there is only one of him/her (or Him/Her)?Wesley's rich fantasy life is the proof - that and the fact that Wesley is gay so God must have chosen to make him that way, which means there must be a God. Are we going round in circles yet?

poor Wesley..he's been so moved by his Pattaya experiences he's now turned to God.

poor Wesley..he's been so moved by his Pattaya experiences he's now turned to God.Are you sure it's not that God was so moved by the Pattaya experiences that She's turned to Wesley?

[Wesley]

one thing for sure about the Pattaya experience if God was watchign he had a good time too.

Wes

[Khor tose]

one thing for sure about the Pattaya experience if God was watchign he had a good time too.

Wes

Now that is a real interesting statement. Was he/she laughing when they watched or turned on.

[Wesley]

I do its the new neoorthodox wesleyian thological seminary for rthe secularization of the church.



Wes

Professor Richard Dawkins Book has the world re-evaluating if God ever did exist you to when you read it he has been doing a world tour and it stirs up so emotion but he explains the answers to evolution so well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/boo ... /delusion/ (http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/booksellers/press_release/delusion/)


Discover recently called Richard Dawkins "Darwin's Rottweiler" for his ferocious and effective defense of evolution. The world's foremost atheist and a world-renowned biologist, he is also brave enough to challenge the very premise of all religion. Dawkins's critics call him hostile and confrontational, and many people wonder, What is he so angry about? Has religion, specifically Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, really done so much harm that we should actively oppose it? Well, yes. In his new book, The God Delusion, Dawkins examines, with wit, reason, and historical and contemporary evidence,

тАв how religion fuels and justifies war
тАв how religion encourages bigotry and xenophobia
тАв how religion damages children's intellectual development.


Dawkins makes a compelling case that belief in God is not just irrational but incredibly harmful. In the past five years, we have witnessed the evils that men do in the name of God. Still, many religious people find it hard to imagine how, without religion, one can be good. Dawkins argues that our moral sense has a Darwinian origin, and he answers, "Do you really mean to tell me the only reason you try to be good is to gain God's approval and reward or to avoid his disapproval and punishment? That's not morality, that's just sucking up." Further, and more seriously, Dawkins says, "Those who literally wish to base their morality on the Bible have either not read it or have not understood it."

But the details of the Bible aside, most people believe in God, don't they? Are they all wrong? A preeminent scientist, Dawkins respectfully deconstructs the arguments for God's existence. He examines the roots of religion as well, showing how belief in God and religious cults spring up and spread. In The God Delusion, Dawkins illuminates how Godlessness, rather than motivating meaninglessness, is inspirational. If all we have is now, we should be living life, every second of it, with a sense of joy and wonder. John Lennon once said, "Imagine a world with no religion," and in The God Delusion, Dawkins explains why it is essential that we do that тАФ if we want to imagine all the world's people living in peace, anyway.

http://richarddawkins.net/firstChapter,1

The God Delusion is a 2006 bestselling non-fiction book by British biologist Richard Dawkins, professorial fellow of New College, Oxford,[1][2][3] and inaugural holder of the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford.

In The God Delusion, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in a personal god qualifies as a delusion, which he defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence. He is sympathetic to Robert Pirsig's observation in Lila that "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion."[4]

As of November 2007, the English version of The God Delusion had sold over 1.5 million copies and had been translated to 31 other languages.[5] It was ranked #2 on the Amazon.com bestsellers' list in November 2006.[6][7] In early December 2006, it reached #4 in the New York Times Hardcover Nonfiction Best Seller list after nine weeks on the list.[8] It remained on the list for 51 weeks until 30 September 2007.[9] It has attracted widespread commentary, with several books written in response.

I can recommend it as a truly fascinating book, which is remarkably easy to read - very little Latin, and even that is translated.

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

[Wesley]

I would not disagree, I would say that the church in the end will secularize, become materialistic in its theology and exist for only to serve man not God. The truth is the church has lied to men for hundreds or years and the real truth lies with in, not with out. God, may be real. I cannot disprove his existence, I can only say that if any of the great religions succeed it will because they have taken away the law of man and replaced it with the love of God , and serves not man but God. Evolution, a great theory but still remains a theory alone. No more provable than a god of the universe and intelligent design.

I am not saying he is right only that there is insufficient proof one way or another to make an ,intelligent decision on the existence of God. I can say there are flaws in translation of the text of the new and old testament flaws in Islam and the original text flaws Buddhism and transcendentalism. None of them provable none of them disprovable. Logic would say there is no god, Kierkegaard would say it takes a leap of faith to find him. I believe eventually the existence of any supreme being will be like people who have evolved greater than we and who still in their right mind, would stay out of the presumed evolution of man. If there is a god, it is a God of the heart not of the law. I cannot prove he exist, I can only say I have taken a leap of faith to believe. But not in the God we see hear and are told but, a God who for some reason or another has taken man, created him and left him to is own demise or greater evolution of who he is. God is not dead he is not tracendental. He is with in me. Alive and real . I feel him I know him I cannot prove him. I believe that the great heresy of the modern and first century church has been to lie to man and make him subservient to others over him. laws not created by god but by man.

All the best,

Wesley